Tories "work for benifits" scheme
 

The Tory Party are to reveal a new policy regarding unemployment benefits.
The new system will find work for people claiming unemployment benefit (JSA around £59.00 pw) and enforce a 25-30 hour week on claimants ..the proposal is for work such as cleaning of Goverment buildings (I presume this includes early starts such as 5.00am in the mornings.... do you agree with this?.. is this the Tory party that claimed to have learned its lesson when kicked out?..why not open up the old workhouse system?

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What happens to the people who are already doing those jobs?

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i gather they r on about long time unemployed

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yeh but cleaners already clean those buildings, what about them?:rolleyes:

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true but get the lazy buggers that dont want to work back in work or dont pay them

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wouldn,t dispute that! but these dickheads want to put em working where somebody already does, typical Tory stupidity.;):cool:

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It's a tricky one. I would never want to see a return to workhouse days but there are certainly some people who need to startle themselves and look for a job.

But.....there are also many many genuine claimants for benefits. The problem is how to weed out the malingerers from the genuinely sick / disabled. :(


Edit......sorry, just read first post again and realised they're not talking about folk on the sick are they? Just people on JSA.

Time for bed maybe LOL

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Excuse me if I sound cynical Cashy...but I did get the feeling in the 80's that Tory policy was to keep the employed on their toes..in fear of losing their jobs

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cynical is correct mancie- as i am with owt them buggars do.:rolleyes:

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They will target people on other benefits, such as Incapacity Benefits too.


BBC NEWS | UK | UK Politics | Tories target long-term jobless

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I think the idea is more complicated than that, we have a number of "unemployed" people in the country and are in the position that migrant work is now required to fill those vacancies. We currently have something like 1.5m jobs in the country and a large number of the population on long term incapacity and jobseekers allowance. You can see the logic, and there is a certain amount of sense to it - we have jobs that need doing and the work force there do so them, and the reality is a percentage would perhaps understandably prefer to stay at home and be paid benefits. Of course there is always the cynical view, and its easy to take an extreme point about such a policy and make it a negative one but you would be hard pressed to complain about migration, welfareism and an overcrowded country if such schemes are opposed. Dont forget, someone has to pay for all these people to sit at home watching Jeremy Kyle - of course there will be people with real dissabilities or conditions which make them unable to work and they should be supported but thats not what this is about.

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I've always found it strange where people claim to be unable to work due to 'bad knees' etc. There are countless disabled people in wheel chairs who manage quite well to find and enjoy an active productive working life. I've worked closely with a guy who is a phalydamide victim. he types with his toes and manages pretty much everything including driving 20 miles each way to and from work.

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I think they should do anything as long as the stop claiming so much money, i used to clean offices and bar etc, nowt wrong with that,when u need the money u do anything.
Like entwisi says that people claim they are unable to work due to bad knees.
My mum is 60 and she works 12 and 13 hours a day, she has a very bad case of arthritis, fibromialgia and god knows what else, but she still gets up in the morning and goes to work and then comes home 2 take care of the house and look after my brother who is disable.So people out there that say that cant work due to bad knees or less, get off your arse and do something.
There, needed to get that out lol

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Is that not the same as the Government creating new jobs?
Just look around you next time you take a walk anywhere. The whole country needs tidying up. Have a walk around you nearest park. Does it need work doing? How nice would the town centre look with 20 people walking round tidying up instead of 1?

To me the biggest problem won't be finding useful work for people, it will be keeping them doing the work.

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I reckon that the jobs that these people would be given would be in public services and not businesses, those services which are covered by the tax payer, eg hospital cleaning, council buildings, schools etc. Public services are notoriously understaffed, hospital cleaning is a brilliant example. No extra money would have to be spent and there could be twice as many cleaners.
This may have worked in other countries like the USA and Australia but I bet our lot would screw it up somehow.:rolleyes:

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David Cameron was interviewed on BBC news this morning. Before interviewing him they talked to somebody who would be affected having been on JSA for over 2 years. The person they interviewed said he doesn't claim JSA to do community service, he does it to support him while he looks for work. The bloke was 23 and had been claiming JSA for 4 years. Looking for work my arse :mad:

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That's just it Willow, hospitals need lots more cleaners but most aren't recruiting because they don't have enough money in the coffers for extra staff. It would certainly help that particular problem area, believe me, it is nigh on impossible to find a cleaner where I work at night.

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This is about people who are on Jobseekers allowance NOT incapacity benefit. So please leave people who are on incapacity benefit alone.

Ok it is a touchy subject for me.

Just as long as it doesnt put people out of work - the employers etc when a cleaner leaves well instead of advertising for a new cleaner i'll take someone who isnt going to cost me anything and eventually get down to all the cleaners in the firm being people who are on jobseekers allowance and so saving the employer money. Was watching newsnight last night and they interviewed 2 people and one of them was a mum and her kid brought home a letter for a daytrip and she said i cant afford it and the kid said well you go out to work every day and she said yes to get the benefit. By the way she was against it, she said it belittles her in her kids eyes. The other one who was on it was for it.

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The proposed Conservative reform of the benefits system does include Incapacity Benefit.

'In an attempt to cut the 2.6 million people on incapacity benefit, all current claimants would be reassessed by doctors and, if considered fit for work, placed on jobseeker's allowance - losing £20 a week benefit.'

Cameron sets out welfare-to-work plans | Special Reports | Guardian Unlimited Politics

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Im safe anyway - got a letter last fri saying ive been awarded my incapacity benefit to october 2012.

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Sorry to have to disagree with you Jen but this link would seem to indicate otherwise.

That was in reply to your post before Garinda's.

They seem to keep moving the goalposts. I have a friend who was awarded DLA for life and yet has had to go for two further medicals since then! :mad:

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I got awarded it for life as well ....... then took off me 5 years later.

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They said i wasnt ill enough. The assessor came out to the house because i'd had to cancel the other appointment because id had a fit and wasnt well enough to get there so they came out two weeks later. When she came she asked me to lift a pan out of the cupboard. Because i could lift an empty pan - a saucepan -as well she said i wasnt ill enough to get the dla anymore.

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It' a great idea providing it is handled correctly. As was mentioned, we need to make sure current cleaners remain employed so the NHS isn't cutting costs and depriving people who aren't on JSA from getting a job.

Secondly obviously people who clearly are genuinely not fit to work will not be made to (I'm talking about incapacity benefits). There is however a large number of incapacity claimants that could do jobs which their capacity prohibits. This has to be handled very carefully.

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Any scheme that gets the work shy into work is worth exploring but only if the cost of running the scheme is less than the money saved. Not like the CSA where it was reported that the CSA cost millions to run but they only recovered a fraction of that amount.

The other point I would make is that you can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

In other words what do you do if the ‘worker’ makes a hash of the job s/he is given and continues to do so? Would you want a work shy person cleaning in hospitals? They would more likely spread infections than keep them under check.

If a person is dead set on not working then how do you make him/her?

The real way to get most people back to work is to ensure that their wages after tax, NI and travelling costs to work are well above what they get on benefits.

Someone on JSA will also get things like free prescriptions, most if not all of the rent paid and Council Tax paid. Add those allowances into the equation and a person at work would need to bring home over £150 per week to make it worth their while to find a job. It would be even more if there were a family to keep.

But if a scheme is to go ahead then how about gangs of street cleaners picking up litter and sorting rubbish for re-cycling and tipping instead of lumbering the long suffering public with the task.

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I was on Incapacity benefit for 9 years until I got retirement pension. I have had one of those 'point scoring' medicals.

They are a bit of a farce really because they are full of trick questions. I got a copy of The Disability Rights Handbook which shows you what your score will be for each answer. By knowing that a score of 15 will ensure you stay on benefit, you can tailor your answers to fit the bill, whilst giving the appearance that you are capable of some activities in your answers to the trick questions, which give no score at all, and so increase your credibilty.

It is neccessary to do this because the system used for the assessment looks at physical limitations and places little weight on PAIN.

Pain is a very subjective sensation and the capacity to tolerate it varies widely from person to person and can vary for that person from day to day.

A person who lives with cronic incurable pain will know exactly what I mean - a fit and healthy person who has not been there will consider 'taking a pain killing pill' will do the trick -- it wont!--- it doesn't!

Constant pain is something your body learns to adapt to and only becomes apparant to others when your capacity to cope with it is reduced by other factors -- eg by having to be 'capable' at 8 set hours of the day, for 5 set days a week.(work)

I have all my limbs intact and there are days when I have the energy to do springcleaning and decorating, but I know that for any day like that I will have 2 afterwards where the pain gets to an intolerable level and I just rest and sleep.

Until they invent a gadget whereby the examiner can feel the degree of pain experienced by the person being tested, tests will never be infallible.

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I got offered a cleaning job recently even though there were plenty of immigrants, all older than me, waiting to be interviewed who could probably do the job better than me. When I first rang for the job the woman said at the end of the call that it was nice to hear a british accent.

I felt I was offered the job unfairly and I turned the job down, I didn't want to be employed by someone with that kind of attitude. I dont think its fair to say there is a lack of jobs just because the immigrants work harder, as there are still many many people in the country who would rather hire a native to the country than an immigrant, regardless of who is better qualified for the job.

As already said, its a good idea to force people into work but there must be cleaners and things already doing the jobs so it seems a bit silly. How are they going to create jobs for these people? Why dont they force them to sign up for the army or something, i'm sure there is always a need for soldiers.

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Did you tell her you were offended by that remark :rolleyes:

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Silly people always come up with the “make them join the army” response to the work shy.

The British armed forces are probably the best disciplined in the world in spite of being badly equipped. We don’t want dead beats getting their hands on a weapon that kills DEAD.

The modern service person is no longer considered as cannon fodder but needs to be intelligent, resourceful, courageous, sympathetic, diplomatic and friendly as well as a cold blooded killer when the need arises.

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You don't need to make them work. But you don't have to pay them benefits either. I live in California, and our unemployment benefit is like a savings account - you have to earn it before you get paid it, and after a period of time it runs out - and you need to find a job in order to replenish your unemployment balance or you starve. If you are physically incapable of working, there are programs to help out, and also modified work, which finds you a job which fits your ability, and potentially makes up the difference in what an employer would pay you. My brother-in-law has struggled with employment recently, and doesn't feel the urge to go get a job.... until his unemployment is about to run out.

I think most decent people want those who truly cannot provide for themselves to be cared for, but those who are physically capable should be supported in the short term while they get their act together, but able bodied individuals shouldn't be supported for their lifetime.

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surprised no-one has mentioned the example set by the chap in an earlier thread, he was Blind and had no hands but still managed to hold down a full time job , probably too proud to even apply for , let alone demand a blue badge as an "entitlement"

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What's not enough to live on? Without sounding like a heartless ass, £5.52 an hour is certainly above poverty wages. How long does said person that "can't find a job" given to look while being supported by taxpayer money that could be spent on the NHS or better Schools or roads? 2 months? 6 months? 4 years? Taking a job while continuing to look is always an option. Sliding scale top up benefits (giving people a benefit that supplements their earned income) is certainly better than dishing out the dole.

People need to be trained in legitimate skills. Government needs to help out there. Creating skilled jobs creates the gap between positions that seem to be filled by "foreigners" who are willing to work hard for less money. Welcome to the Global economy. If someone goes through school and comes out with no real education, or any marketable skills, then he is going to be competing against an eastern European that is over the moon making minimum wage. That's what you get for joining the EU. Its great for business, but sucks if you are on the bottom end of the food chain.

Encouraging people to create a little self worth by getting them out into the workplace. Personally, I think encouraging young people to start their own business would be a great thing. I am self-employed and I have never worked for anyone else. Its been a lot of hard graft. I have become successful, eventually, but there have been a lot of bumps along the way. I don't buy that someone "can't find a job".

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We, in this country, pay benefits to people who have not paid a penny into the system.
This needs to stop. In most countries if you emigrate you have to have enough funds to support yourself for a period of time and you are not entitled to benefits unless you have contributed.

And while I don't think that benefits should be seen as a career option, I do not think that making people work on Community schemes is the way to get people back into the work arena.

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Willow, I agree that there should be a safety net. I was mainly referring to people who come in from abroad with no means of support, who then manage to claim benefits.
I am not really blaming them for claiming benefits....I blame the system that allows this practice to take place.
I do not think that those who are long term sick should be made to feel guilty because they are sick....with perhaps a chronic disease that will end their life prematurely.

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I agree with you. When I emigrated to the USA, both my sponsor and I had to sign an agreement that said that I would not attempt to claim benefits or obtain assistance from the state.

Community schemes should be a very temporary measure easing people back into the habit of getting up in the morning and doing a day's work. I am of the opinion that people should do SOMETHING in exchange for their pittance. Anything. Doing the old neighbour's gardening or accompanying them to go shopping. Give them a little responsibility, and make them understand that their dole isn't free. Then they might actually want to get a real job as the alternative isn't very pleasant. And if they don't want to do their bit of community service, then the community shouldn't be obliged to give them their dole. God I sound like a Tory. I must be getting old.

And Margaret, I don't think ANYONE wants people that are truly incapable through illness or injury from feeling guilty about being supported, simply those who play the system, who are capable of supporting themselves, but chose to play the benefits game should have their loopholes closed. Joey Boswell has a lot to answer for.

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Gareth, doing something for the community may be taking paid work away from someone else. Any work that is done for the dole should either lead to a 'REAL' job........or be a real job....not just something that has been conjured up to give idle hands something to do.......I can see that working for dole, is in essence, 'slave labour' because people are not being paid their true worth.Dole should be a safety net with an imposed time limit....if you don't find work in 6 months then you are on your own.
It is just that some people se themselves expectations that are too high.....you'll hear them say 'I wouldn't get out of bed for that kind of wage' or 'I can get more on the dole'....!

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Why, there are a lot of people claiming incapacity benefit that should not be. All forms of hand out should be reassessed on a regular basis to make sure the person claiming still qualifies.

I have been saying for years they should not be giving money out while we have dirty hospitals and streets.

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Compared to a pensioner £5.52 per hour is above the poverty line but what about a family man with a wife and two kids?

I read recently that there are several thousand newly qualified doctors who cannot get a position so presumably they will have to sign on the dole. So what job would you allocate them?

What do you do with a 54 years old engineer/electrician/plumber/accountant etc.?

All these ‘solutions’ are coming from people in employment and of course they know it all. “I got off my backside and made something of myself, why don’t you?” is a phrase that is often bandied about by the self employed. Well not everyone can and has the ability to become self employed. But then were would the workers come from if everyone was self employed? In any case of all the thousands of new self employed some half end up bankrupt within six months. Yes there is practical help out there when starting your own business but the help is not free and just leeches away the lifeblood of the business.

You get a different perspective in the dole queue and you do the best that you can for yourself and your family.

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They would get top up benefits, so £5.52 is the base rate really. Without checking up up I would think they would also get housing benefit ( if they rent ) and council tax relief.

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The member's name is apparently Gareth, not Clever clogs.

Don't you usually throw your geriatric dummy out of your high-chair, when someone doesn't use your exact usermame, Jim Bitty?

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The family man as shillelagh mentioned if only on £5.52 ph would be entitled to working and children tax credits.

Also goes for single people on min wage would also be entitled to working tax credits as a top up and may still get some housing benefit and council tax benefit

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Brava , time someone taught the old 'escaped gas bubble' some manners :D :D though I do think its a bit like casting pearls before swine

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Don't be cruel.

Personally I love the idiot, but hate their idiotcy...or at least blame their medication.

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You wait until they reach 70 then give them one of these T shirts


http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/a...1&d=1199870779

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I've got a friend on Incapacity benefit who would love to work, but he gets worn out so easily he'd need to take constant breaks and it wouldn't do him any good, so he's having to wait on an NHS hospital list so he can have the final op that will hopefully go well and he'll be able to work again soon.

Must be hard being young and being unable to work though when you really want to. What else can you do during the day?

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Women balance families and careers now aswell, there isn't any reason why a mother cant also get a job in this day and age, particularly with many companies having flexi-hour schemes now for working mothers, and there is increased maternity leave so they can wait til a better age to put their children into childcare. Many mothers wouldn't like this at a young age but they could have baby in childcare for 2hrs a day and get a cleaning job that'd bring at least £50 a week in to cover food or the gas and electric. No need for the man to be the only income anyway.

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How much is £50 per week minus 2 hrs a day childcare worth ?

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Well depends on the age of the child, from 3 yrs of age you get so many hours paid for. Until then I'm sure many womens family would be willing to help out, doting grannies and stuff?

There are ways for women to have their jobs and their babies, not every woman stays at home til her child is 3 yrs of age.

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Where to start. I think other people answered my question about your family man. Personally, and I am sure I am going to hear it, but if you are old enough to have a wife and 2 kids, then you should have gained enough marketable skills to make more than minimum wage. If you have made the choice to bring children into the world, then you should have given at least lip service to what they cost to raise. Unfortunately, the sad reality of life is that unless you have a high paying job, wifey now needs to contribute to the family income to survive. That's the effect of women coming into the workforce since the second world war. If you want the trappings of comfort - nice car, nice house, you need two incomes, or at least one and a half.

Back to your self-employment thing. If everyone was self employed, the workers would be self employed companies. But that's unrealistic. If you had NO new self employed people, then who would hire the workers? There has to be some balance, but more businesses means more jobs to choose from.

Your doctors question is a result of poor planning by government. One of the benefits of the NHS is the ability to plan. We should only be creating enough doctors to fill the projected positions available in the NHS. Its never going to be perfect, but you shouldnt be creating thousands more skilled persons than needed. I was back in Lancashire over the Christmas break attending the wedding of two student doctors. They told me that they are having to train extra doctors in order to fill the projected slots of women doctors taking family leave in their careers. Our doctors might not get immediate employment, but it should be forthcoming in short order.

And what would I allocate them as a benefit job? How about visiting homebound pensioners to check to see if they are warm and healthy? I am sure there are plenty of people like yourself who would love a friendly face who could spend some time with them.

54 Year old engineer, electrician, plumber, accountant? I am surprised that a plumber and electrician aren't immediately self employable? Growth in compensation isn't something that should naturally come with age, it should come with growth in value. This comes with experience and knowledge. If you have spent your career not gaining more experience, or you still suck at what you do, you don't deserve more money, and that's no-one's fault other than your own.

I would take some of those unemployed accountants and have them help start-up businesses. People generally love what they do being self employed. They don't love bookkeeping, sales generation and all the other things that are vitally important to running a business. People typically don't fail in business because they aren't good at what they do, they aren't good at the core tasks of running a business. And the government should pay them to do it as it will create all kinds of jobs and tax revenues. And what REALLY drains the lifeblood of business, is having to pay more tax to fund lazy capable people sitting on the dole for their life.

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You kind of contradict yourself by saying that you don't want paid work taking someone's job, but if dole work were a 'REAL' job thats exactly what you would create. By creating community service jobs, you increase the quality of life for many, home visiting, after school tutoring, stuff that the government, and poorer people would never really pay for, but would serve a purpose. The dole jobs shouldn't be something that you particularly enjoy, as you want people motivated to do something else. I think legitimate training schemes and apprenticeships (even for older people) should be available as part of getting your dole.

I agree with the time limited safety net. I would give people 2 months for free to give them time to seriously find a job, and when they start to becoming part of the chronically unemployed, then they need to work at least some part of the week for their cheque.

And for those who have an inflated value of themselves - if you don't want to get out of bed for that kind of wage - you better find a way to feed yourself because I wouldn't be giving you your dole after 2 months.

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what a well put together post cant agree with you more well put and said.......did i just agree with you lol

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Well, Gareth you may think I was contradicting myself, but the point I wanted to make was that jobs should be real jobs....making the dole an unnecessary benefit.
One of the problems that we have with some unemployed people is that they want jobs with good wages and good prospects, but have limited marketable skills....no-one appears to want what are seen as 'menial' jobs.
We have a migrant population who will do the menial tasks and will do them for a cheap rate, so then the indigent unemployed bleat on about migrant workers taking jobs....but they appear to be jobs that our own population do not want to do.

The benefits system has been allowed to run out of control for too long....no political party has had the guts or the gumption to radically overhaul it, for fear of losing votes.
All the political parties have been guilty of just tinkering with it, hoping someone else would come along and do the real work on it.......and we all know that that never happens.

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My apologies, I understand with the clarification. I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment. The "dole jobs" should be a purely temporary situation which would encourage people to see out a "real" job, or the skills necessary to eventually acquire a "real" job. Unfortunately, in our economy, we don't have the luxury of full employment that we had in the early 50s, caused in great part by the deaths of 300,000 abled bodied males, and 65,000 civilians during world war II.

As long as the UK remains part of the EU, migrant workers will continue to come and do unskilled work. We have a population that needs to either get skills or compete with migrant workers. If they weren't getting benefits to let them permanently sit on their behinds they would have to choose one or the other. I would think most people would go for the former than the latter.

As to the desire of some to want an easy job that pays a ton of cash, I quote Peter Sellers when asked about his job. He said he was helping the women at the Moulin Rouge into their costumes for 25 francs a week. When a friend said that's not very much - he said that's all I can afford. Typically, jobs aren't fun all the time, if they were, they would be called a hobby and so many people would want to do it that you wouldn't get paid.

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This is so true and needs sorting out.

There is no shortage of jobs, the papers are full of them

Jobs in Blackburn with Darwen, Burnley, Chorley, Hyndburn, Pendle, Ribble Valley and Rossendale

£300M spent by HM gov. on giving "free english lessons" :eek: :eek:

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There is no crime in being on the dole jambutty, but it is a crime not to look for a job, or train for something that the job market can sustain....and yes, this may mean that in a lifetime of work, adults may have to retrain several times to be marketable....and anyone with any common sense will see that.
It is no longer sensible to think you can have any job for your entire working life....but dole should be a safety net.....not a way of life or a career option.

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I thought you were retired now?

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Wow, and isnt this just a little political hot potato!!! A good friend of mine who is the most liberal person you could meet and who's opinion I always value said today that he would vote for a modern Conservative party who recognised the need for people to be looked after whilst acknowledging that with rights come responsibilities, and that means not sitting on your backside expecting someone else to pay for you whilst you watch deal or no deal. I have to say I was shocked, but it seems that this subject touches a few peoples nerves in many ways!

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The doctors issue is down to obvious mismanagement. Its the same with Nurses, the NHS are training them then there's no job for them to go to once they have trained. However it is NOT the states role to make a job where it is not required on a permanent basis in order to artificially decrease unemployment levels. It is simply not sustainable.

To the 54 year old engineer, electrician, plumber, accountant, the workplace is crying out for them. There are lots of jobs available and if they don't like it, it is still not too late to retrain!

The benefits system should always be there as a safety net not a career choice.

People can afford to sit around doing nothing because we pay them to do it. Remove that choice. Tell people if they want those benefits they need to earn them. It is time people took responsibility for their own lives. It is not the role of the government to nurse you from cradle to grave, its there to protect our rights to Life, Liberty and Property of ones person.

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in that case the Govt. is clearly not doing its job

#1 protecting life ......how many unborn lives does the Govt. allow/pay for to be destroyed every year through state sponsored murder (abortion)

#2 protecting Liberty, anyone arrested (not convicted) in the UK has to provide a DNA sample which goes into a central Govt. data base . and as I understand it , from one sample of DNA it is possible to identify the DNA of both parents ...so in actual fact the data base is holding three times the actual number of samples ,........ it would be interesting to know what percentage of the samples on file have actually been used to get a conviction ...

#3 protecting Property..... in that case the the Police detection rates for crimes against person and property would be higher than the abysmal rates of less than 30%

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Jambutty, I didn't say that you said it was a crime to be on the dole......and I know it isn't actually a criminal offence not to look for work instead of relying on benefits long term....it is a social crime....and just to add....I think you knew exactly what I meant, and are being pedantic in your response.

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You are evading the issue in trying to lay the blame on mismanagement.

The point is that the doctors and nurses have been trained to doctor and nurse by the state at enormous expense. Do you really expect any of them to take on a cleaning job whilst a post comes up somewhere?

It’s all very well glibly stating that “there are lots of jobs available”. The question is where? Would you as a 54 years old engineer be prepared to uproot your family, sell your house, disrupt your kids schooling and move half way across the country to get a job? Or travel 50 miles a day to get to the new job? And then get castigated for adding to the road congestion and atmospheric carbon.

There is no doubt that there is a hard core of work-shy people who exploit the system but there are ten times the number who are genuine and just cannot find a job that pays them more than they get on the dole. Why should they be tarred with the same brush as the work-shy?

Earn their benefits Cyfr? Most have by paying exorbitant taxes and NI during their working life until they were chucked on the scrap heap.

As I have stated before all you “go get any job” brigade would have a different view on the issue if it were YOU who was on the dole.

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My signature has nothing to do with the post in question and you are being pedantic.

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It looks like good management to me. You train more people than you need so you can pick the cream. It would be poor management to only train the number you need. Then you could be short of top quality Doctors and Nurses at the end of the training. Yes it does cost money to train people but for some of there training they are actively working and being useful. If you don't like the idea of being one of the ones left out then its simple, make sure you are one of the best.

That's been happening for years in engineering apprenticeships. The last few years I worked at Michelin they did not take on all the apprentices they trained. One year non of the 6 were taken on.

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Doctors and Nurses have generally had huge amounts of their courses paid for so they're in nowhere near as much debt as the rest of students. If people decide to take on careers where they know there might not be a place for them, then its not the states role to make a job where it isn't available and it isn't the states role to tell them "Well its okay, We'll pay you to sit on your arse while we tax everyone elses hard work". Its exactly the same as the thousands of students studying media. They KNOW the market is way over saturated and they'll need to get other jobs. Just because you have a degree does NOT make you too good to be a cleaner or any other job that doesn't require specific qualifications!

I simply don't believe that somebody with 30 or 40 years of engineering experience would struggle to find a job that he/she can travel to easily. The market would snap them up.

Yes people are taxed a lot, but this money goes towards the NHS, Policing, Education, Defence and everything else the government provides. It isn't your God given right to have benefits without doing the jobs that the Conservatives are suggesting. Not to add that we wouldn't have to pay so much tax if there weren't so many people being paid to not work through their own choice!

I think your statement about the "go get a job brigade" is an awful argument. If for whatever reason I ended up on the dole, I would not expect honest working citizens to fund me sitting around. Working as a cleaner would be fine with me. I should have to work for the money until I can find a better job for myself.

I don't care if I have a Degree, Masters or PHD, if there is no work for me then I'd be grateful of a job offered to me by the state that allows me to have a basic income.

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You have a good point. I called it mismanagement because when I heard about it being done in the NHS the student nurses had not been told they were only accepting x number of applicants. If they tell them then theres no problem. :)

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I have only drawn dole once in my life and it was through the winter of discontent when there were power cuts....and weavers were laid off (though we had full order books).
I have never been unemployed, I have always figured it is easier to get a job when you have a job....so I have taken work that was not to my taste, as a stop gap, and to keep the wolf from the door, until I could find something that did suit me.
This to me makes good economic sense....or am I wrong in believing that too.

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I notice how not one person has mentioned New Deal
Jobcentre Plus -

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I have been on the dole, several times back in the eighties when businesses were going bust and chucking their work forces on the scrap heap every hour of every day. When I was lucky enough to get another job it was always a case of last in first out when cut backs came around – and they did with startling regularity. If it wasn’t that then there was the three months rule. “Sorry we don’t think that you are going to make the grade” or words that effect as they show you the door at the end of week 12. At week 14 they would have to pay the full going wage. Worst of all whilst tied up at work all day you got little or no chance to seek something better and even if you do find something you can’t attend an interview because your current employer won’t give you the time off or says “yes OK you can go but don’t come back.”

During that time, amongst other jobs, I was a Betterware salesman (up to 10 hours a day, 6 days a week), mobile ice cream salesman (up to 10 hours a day, 7 days a week), semi skilled upholsterer (paid when there was work to do), Debt collector, Manager of a newsagents on Roman Road Estate (up at 4:00am to open the shop at 4:30am to await the delivery of papers. Close at 6:00pm 7 days a week. Sunday closing at 1:00pm and Xmas Day off). Part time help for 3 hours morning and afternoon to give me time to go to the various Cash and Carry’s to buy stock. After 18 months the owners sold the shop from under me. Just as well really because I doubt if I could have carried on any longer. After that it was Private Hire driver and again 12 hours a day 6 days a week.

I tried the re-training schemes for £10 above the dole and it cost more than that just to get to work and back. But the end result was always either cheap labour or a skivvy for the rest. Those also lasted 12 weeks before they let you go. I can just see a qualified doctor doing that.

One swallow does not a summer make. Meaning that just because you can quote that a handful of families have uprooted it doesn’t automatically follow that the remaining hundreds of thousands can and should do the same. The greater majority do not have that option.

To all those offering advice to those on the dole – get on the dole yourself before spouting off. You will find out how hard it is to get a job at a living wage and keeping it for any length of time. Especially nowadays when hundreds of thousands of immigrants are crossing our shores and quite happy to work for the basic minimum or less. When a week’s basic wage over here is the equivalent to a month’s wage in their home country you can’t blame them for coming over but it does keep most unskilled and semi skilled jobs pay at the legal minimum and not what the job is really worth.

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I trust that you will never have to experience life on the dole but if you do manage it somehow you will find out how ‘easy’ it is.

Then again the younger you are the better your chances of bouncing back. It’s a different story for older folk.
How wrong you are. The reason why so many engineering businesses went down was because of over saturation in that field. Meaning that other engineering firms were not taking on new employees.

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Sorry I dont understand this logic , no matter where someone comes from, be it eastern Europe, Africa or the far east their living costs in the UK are the same as those as the native born , a loaf of bread is the same price to a Pole as it is for a Brit , Accomodation costs are probably more since 'they' don't have established roots or local conections and are at the mercy of housing speculators, and the fact that they can save and remit money back to their families in their homelands says something :confused: :confused:

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Well, has this thread gone on for too long or what?

Yes, there are dole scroungers.

Yes, there are people pretending and turning up for medicals and extracting the urine, then claiming the maximum that they can because somehow they know how to fiddle the system.

Strange as it may seem though they are not the majority,

most people on benifits are not there from choice.

Because there are some people that will never, ever, work no matter what incentives are offered them we all tend to lump the unemployed together,

This is wrong!

Most of the Genuine unemployed could be on permanent sickness benifit but they don't realise it, most of the people on incapacity should be claiming the benifits that are allowed for the disabled but foolish pride stops them from claiming.

Why? because they already feel they have failed, they do not need those getting four to five times as much as they do while in regular employment looking down on them, they feel small enough!


I keep reading on here about a 55 year old engineer that should be willing to re-train, the poor sod, he knows that he is trying hard to get a place back amongst his fellow workers, he probably has a few wrinkles and tips he could pass on, but come the interview, (if he wasn't foolish enough to put his age on his C.V.), he is quickly nudged onto the 'too old' pile, yes I know by law that shouldn't happen but it still does!

The same 55 year old has possibly been paying into the system with those weekly contributions called National Insurance when he was younger he didn't need to claim, now he's older he's brought a family up half killed himself on that journey through life and now that he, (regretfully), has to use that insurance, is treated like a scrounger.

Hang your heads in shame, not for stating that the system needs cleaning up but because you seem to have put all in that situation into the category of scroungers.

It's not true but it is a very easy and simplistic thing to do.

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Wholeheartedly agree with you.

Now that you have put the pontificators firmly in their place maybe they will go away and target some other unfortunate group of people.

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good post Less, was in a similar position at 50 yrs old, earned good money all me life, paid me dues, then was put out of work after nearly 23 yrs at same firm, was lucky enough to get a job after about 10 days, was MINIMUM wage was told at the joke centre, that was all i would get at my age:mad: loved the new job, was only a bread man,but so what i had worked all me life, got me first wage (6 days) and was shocked to see i had dropped about £280 per week, after 6 months we could not exist off that wage, late wife was made redundant, so luckily we owned our property,had savings, so emigrated to spain,started me own business, did ok, unfortunately cancer put paid to that. so for cyfr to say he dont think somebody with 30-40 yrs of engineering experiance would struggle to find a job, is galling to me to put it mildly. i hope the arrogant prat is never in that position.:mad:

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many told me i had courage willow, i never viewed it that way at all, after 6 months starting 5-15 until between 1-00 n 2-00, then attempting to get a suitable job, n keep being told i was too old,etc etc, it was desparation not courage, n luckily it worked.

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Willow we all know there are scroungers, and yes, if we could erradicate them from the system more would become available for the genuine claimants, but the genuine claimants aren't asking for more, as little as it is they can actually survive on the money they get, (which is alot better than days gone by with workhouses etc).

However you bring up the subject, people claiming and working cash in hand, I wonder whose fault is that?

If someone on benefits gets caught working in that fashion their money is stopped, what happens to the guy that employed them and perhaps several more?

If he wasn't there to tempt people on the dole to work, 'cash in hand', then they perhaps would sooner find a job.

I would love to hear of a government, any government Labour or Conservative, clamping down on the illegal employer rather than the struggling unemployed, of course an extra few pounds is tempting but if caught who gets penalised?

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you'll have a long wait mate! think these ******* view that as acceptable.:rolleyes: