Magistrate Reprimanded
 

a magistrate has been reprimanded for refusing to try the case of a muslim woman who was charged with criminal damage,because she refused to remove her veil.whilst i acknowledge people wear em for religious reasons, in certain instances this cannot be acceptable to me. court appearences,passport control,etc being some of them, to me the lunatics have taken over the asylum,P.C. gone mad, whats your thoughts on this?

Re: Magistrate Reprimanded
 

How are you supposed to know if she was the right person if you can't see her?
Would I be allowed to wear a crash helmet in court?

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I voted yes. The veil is simply to cover the face from male view and a woman employee of the court can easily check in private that is indeed the correct person.

As for crash helmets, if it was for a religious reason ad you could prove the religion did indeed exist then they can't treat you any differently. I doubt they'd take your religion as seriously though unless it was reasonable. The veil in theory does have a decent reason behind it, and although its a very odd thing to do in our eyes its very normal and important in the muslim faith and I dont see why we shouldn't respect that, as long as all precautions are taken to ensure it is the right person and all that then whats the problem?

In airports it should be the same, women check in a private booth or something, if they refuse this then they should be refused to fly.

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can you please show me were in there bible says they should cover their face been looking cant find it .

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I dont have a Qu'ran in front of me i'm afraid, but I have many muslim female friends who have explained the reasoning behind it. Not all custom and tradition is written into the bible, just like catholic women used to have veils over their heads in church. Nothing about it in the catholic bible as far as I've ever seen yet it was done.

Who's place is it to criticise another cultures beliefs? Dont we whinge when other cultures alledgedly criticise our christmas and say we cant have 'christmas lights' and all that rubbish? I've never met a muslim who's agreed with that, yet i think its a disgrace how many people simply just dont want them to wear it because they cant think of a better solution, IF there is even a problem to be solved.

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my fella used to work for a coach firm and once took a load of muslim women and kids on a day trip, their husbands waved them off and as soon as they left all the women took of their veils!:rolleyes:
he said they had a right laugh, completely different people they were, but as soon as they got home and hubbies where waiting they put em back on:rolleyes:

wonder why it didnt matter then?:rolleyes:

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its not apart of there religion.why does my son get asked to take is cap off going into a pub why when he goes in lots of shops does he get told to take his huddy down .if its is choice to were one .yet i think its a disgrace how many people simply just dont want them to wear it because they cant think of a better solution, IF there is even a problem to be solved.

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Balaclavas have also been used in many a crime, how would we feel if we were unable to wear them by law? Would be a bit odd I think and they dont even have any sort of religious or tradition linked to them. They sell weird balaclavas here on campus, rather odd. Bit scary :p very bright colours aswell, much more offensive to the eye than any veil the muslim faith can think up :p

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Wearing a cap/hat indoors is just rude though isn't it? Where as if a man walked in wearing a turban, or a jewish man wearing his little disc-like hat (dont know the correct term) it'd be silly to ask him to remove it. Somethings are just like that I think, I didn't get taught anything like differentiating between types of headgear, I kind of just know between what you shouldn't wear indoors and which ones you would make exceptions for.

If I have to tolerate fat people then surely you can tolerate a veil!

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So basically you are saying that we should be able to go and live in any country in the way the way we want according to our culture ?

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I think it should work both ways, and I know it doesn't, but I think we would also like to pride ourselves on being more civilised than some of our immigrants native countries.

I think for example that it is wrong that we cant wear our own clothes in places like saudi arabia and, particularly from a female perspective, have to be accompanied by a man everywhere. I cant make an impact on a foreign country though, my opinion doesnt count. Fortunatly we live in a democratic state that at least claims to allow us freedom of expression and I think that if we want to be true to human rights then they should all count for everyone, and personally I think forcing them to not wear the veil would breach Article 9 of the human rights act, and thats not fair unless there is no way to provide a secure society without doing that, and I think there could be ways of doing so without such radical measures. Just a matter of opinion and I'm sure I'm not the only person in the country against it otherwise it would have happened already.

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SOME fat people are fat because they cant help it, SOME veil wearers are forced to by their husbands. I have learnt to tolerate so you should tolerate too and watch your mouth on a family friendly forum.


Do people forget that england has laws protecting women that have husbands like that here? Should they disobey their husbands and get taken back to the country they came from where no doubt women are meaningless and have no laws protecting them?

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For me this is a largely irresolvable issue as the question centres on establishing how far expression of religion can permeate through a person's everyday interactions with society as a whole in a multicultural society. There are two extreme views, neither necessarily good 1) That people should be entitled to express religious beliefs however and wherever they like (though this is usually qualified by the caveat that it only goes as far as the law or acceptable behaviour is permitted - and there lies your problem) 2) That religion is personal and should not be brought into public life at all. The problem with this is that it would alienate a majority of people to some degree.

In the vast majority of cases a degree of common sense and tact will triumph, enable state institutions to carry out their function and alleviate any offence caused to those who have to interact with them.

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What is Article 9 of the human rights act ?

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blazey how long did it take ya to look that up?:rolleyes:

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In London I used to have to deal with Saudi women who wore a full face veil, that even had the eyes covered by a lace net.

Should they be allowed to express their religious freedom in a cour of law?

What happens in prison?

Are Muslim women exempt from wearing standard issue prison uniform?

Re: Magistrate Reprimanded
 

In prison you lose your full rights, regardless, so its a completely different issue. Thats what they say in the IVF cases anyway :)

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I'm putting together a presentation of it right now, I could scan you my notes to prove it if I moved to go upstairs to the part of the library with the scanners :D its not a merry life doing work all day and night :p

My presentation is on abolishing the human rights actually, I'm meant to be arguing for abolishing it. Any opinions on that whilst I'm wasting time on here :p

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Right to thought, conscience and religion.

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So even though there may be male guards in a women's prison, their rights to modesty are not protected?

Seems to me like the law is inconsistent.

Suprise, suprise.

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And you KNOW i'm in the library because I've said elsewhere that I have no internet in my house, so I'm studying seen as I'm lancaster by myself til term starts and housemates get back. Pretty depressing but work needs to be done I guess! Havent eaten yet today and I can see the cafe out the window. Overpriced though so I will starve instead :p

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Its unfair but true, just as I mentioned, some prisoners try to get IVF to have families with their partners who aren't in prison with them and its refused, they try to argue breach of Article 8. I dont think I need to say what that is :p argument hasn't stood up in court so far though and I dont think it ever will.

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Lazy madam!

Go and use the pans you aquired in the summer.:D

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if you were in a third world country you might starve not sat in a nice warm library

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I only have apples and some mince. What can I get with that?

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Baked apples stuffed with mince | Recipes:D

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True, though the library is far from warm. I'm sure a comedian once commented about how his gran said, when talking about 3rd world countries, 'at least they get the sun.' Wouldn't it be nice if it was such a luxury for them like it is to us?

I care about the poverty stricken countries, I dont try and disassociate it by calling it the third world, its part of OUR world. I hate that terminology for poor countries. Not that i'm saying its your fault, you didnt invent the term. Just dislike the way it sounds.

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I dont have BUTTER! and certainly no golden syrup :( sounded good though, I was hopefully then. I used my last potato on a homemade shepherds pie.

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Plus i'd have to get the bus home and then come all the way back, its just too cold.

Back on topic though, when you think about it, a muslim in prison here wouldn't get to wear her veil as she'd lose that right, but in her home country she'd probably be stoned to death for bringing shame on the family or something radical and OTT. I'm sure she'd chose our system over her native one.

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I am going to leave accyweb for the day now, and go on the scary venture back home. I might be back, but chances are I wont, at least not until tomorrow :) Mince and apple for tea and whatever other scraps I can find. Wish me luck!

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well so far all my poll has proved is 15 people are wrong and Blazey is right,as usual.:rofl38::rofl38::rofl38:

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It shouldn't be acceptable to wear a traditional veil in court, we hear quite often of Jehovah's Witnesses whose children are made wards of court because their religious beliefs do not allow blood transfusions, the courts disregard their religion and beliefs and quite categorically over-rule them without exception. Why should any other faith be treated differently?

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Probably 15 people who aren't slim :D

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I've no objection to people wearing their traditional dress in court, whether it's a turban, African dress or even Amercian Indian gear. However, I think that a face veil is different; surely, in a courtroom situation, you need to be able to see a person's face, their expressions, how they react to certain questions etc. As Jack Straw put it when talking about his constituents coming to see him, it's better without a veil because "you can - literally - see what the other person means, and not just hear what they say."

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ah good common sense, but its not what article 9 of the Human right Acts says, you have been warned.:D

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From what I've seen, the Human Rights Act seems to contravene common sense in a number of ways. However, up until 1997, any UK government could ignore the more ludicrous aspects of it, as it was not part of our national laws. This present government insisted on incorporating it into UK law in that year and now we're stuck with it! :mad:

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some people like the ludicrous.:rolleyes::D

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This full face veil being a necessary part of their religion is a fallacy. That should be apparant when you see women of the same family with some wearing it and some not - but the clincher for me was when a muslim showed me a quotation from Mohammed which said the only parts of a woman which should be visible should be her face and hands. In other words he did NOT say that she should cover her face. He did specify that she should cover most of her body for the sake of modesty, and that I can relate to as we have standards of modesty in the LDS church too and would be hurt if we were expected to go against those standards, but some people seem to have taken it to extremes and decided that Mohammed was wrong and that they know better than their beloved prophet. I'm surprised that this isn't regarded as heresy. It would be a great step forward for Islam if the day ever comes when it is recognised as such.

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Oh Cashy !! Not this one again.. thank God (LOL) I am an atheist.

Course they should take these blooming veils off in court, how is a magistrate able to judge their emotions, etc., to a question. (as per Wynonie)

All been said 'again' now in this thread and bored with the whole subject, except, this week asked a lady at work who insists on wearing a scarf if she had any hair under there ? Course she had .. her husband doesn't want her to wear it, just doing it of her own volition. Guess she just wants to get noticed more in all this controversy. Looks a bloody mess and that scarf never looks clean to me.

Re: Magistrate Reprimanded
 

Article 9 is about a right to religion.
Wearing a veil over one's face is a cultural norm, not a religious ruling. It has nothing to do with Bible or Qu'ran or any religious text.
Thus no one's religion would be attacked should veil's be made illegal inside a court room.

A veil has as much right to be worn over a woman's face in a court room as a chav has to wear a burberry scarf covering his/her face with cap on & hood up in the same place.

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Sorry Willow, read your post after I made mine.

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Anyone who has taken a plane to either Saudi Arabia or Iran will tell you this head/face covering is a crock , the plane on departure from Europe will be full of some best looking women in the world , beautiful bodies in close fitting clothes and long shoulder length hair , 1/2 an hour before landing the parade to the toilets begins ...in goes a good looking woman/girl and out comes this black garbed bag, so in no way is this covering up a religious thing , the 'black bags' just conforming to local Saudi traditions .
This covering up the hair by Iranian women is a new thing , previously it was banned in the 30s by the late Shah's father (around the same time Attaturk banned the viel/headscarf in Turkey) it was only after the Iman Khomeni returned that the head covering came back , the logic being that some Iranian Scientist/Mullah had made the startling discovery that womens hair emits invisible rays which turn men into sex crazed beasts and therefore should be covered as a way of protecting the men from being bewitched ......
:confused: :confused:

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I think that in the main, this headwear (which seems to me to be a more recent thing since the publicity a few months ago), is another excuse to try to be different from OUR culture and ways, I also think that if our ways are not adopted sometimes, (when in rome etc), then it is another step towards our becoming a muslim state, if a muslim wants to insist on clothing for 'religious' reasons, then transfer all documentation and let her be tried in her own country, and accept the punishment there. I am late joining this thread due to work, but having read it, why do people keep falling for Blazey's obvious wind ups?

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i know they are windups, what worrys me is i think she means what she says.:cool:i just hope Greg Pope reads this thread, would be interested to know his or other political members views, they seem to avoid subjects like this.

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Why put a poll up in the first place Cashy in the mode of for/against if you don't agree with anyone who puts 'for' :rolleyes::confused: Not very democratic methinks.

Strange questions anyway, should have been: 'Should they wear veil in court or not !?' yes or no ?.. not 'yes/the lunatics have won/no' ? (showing your prejudice with the comment) I would have voted 'no' but can't vote on the negative as it is influenced .. all very confusing.

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its not a matter of i agree or not katex, was wondering how many thought this was an acceptable thing to do, obviously 30-1 not many. also trying to draw out these so-called political folk, who NEVER comment on these things.:)after all the public vote em in, do they really represent us? i wonder.;)

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You need to see a persons face to use their body language to decide if they are telling the truth or not. Something quite useful in a court room.

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And its taken them this long to realise that :rolleyes::D

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and maybe even the political wannabes :D :D



( why is there no smiley face with a big wooden spoon ? ) ;)

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would you by any chance be meaning innocent cashy?:)

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Would a veiled woman be allowed to keep her veil on if she was a suspect taking part in an identity parade?

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well if it infringed her Human Rights.:rolleyes:

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I only asked because this woman, a shop girl at Heathrow, Samina Malik, was shown on the news yesterday leaving court during her trial, prior to her being found guilty last month of terrorist offences, wearing a full face veil.

Friend of ‘Lyrical Terrorist’ caught at airport with military equipment - Times Online

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If all the facts in the Times story are correct it seems to me the biggest threat to the security to the UK is not from the terrorists but from a 5th column of traitors in the British legal profession :confused: :confused:

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that may not be too wide off the mark.:cool:

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Oh, this just gets better and better.



'The jobless mother-of-five, from Crumpsall, Manchester, was accused of wrecking her council house with graffiti, for which she was later convicted.'
Daily Express: The World's Greatest Newspaper :: News / Showbiz :: Reprimanded, the JP who asked Muslim to remove veil

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no bloody wonder the politicals aint the bottle to speak out, mustn't upset uncle Jack.:rolleyes:

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The hypocrisy of this government never ceases to amaze me. As Willow says, Jack Straw was the one who spoke out against his constituents wearing the veil when they visited him and now he has the sheer gall to reprimand this magistrate. Do as I say, not as I do... :rolleyes:

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it surely was, as wyn says HYPOCRISY run amok.:rolleyes:

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i knew that willow,was just having another pop at the "invisible wanabees":D

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I notice that the magistrate in question has been ‘re-trained’.

“When in Rome” springs to mind blazey.

The accused and any witnesses giving evidence must have their faces visible so that the emotion expressed in the face is visible to the bench when being cross examined. Hidden behind a veil the accused or witness could be lying in their teeth and no one would know. Juries would certainly want to see the face of the witness and accused.

Imagine if the magistrate was a Muslim women? Would she be allowed to wear a veil whilst on the bench? Would the council for defence or prosecution be allowed to wear a veil? Would any of the court officials be allowed to wear a veil? They might in a Muslim court but such a court has no legal standing in this country even if the Muslims are trying to establish their own courts.

It will be interesting to see what happens if a Muslim woman is called for jury service and turns up fully veiled.

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cant believe this i agree with you for once lol

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the last ones interesting,cos if such a woman was a veil wearer normally, how would they know if it was her that turned up for jury service?:confused:

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I do wish people would stop making the erroneous connection between the veil and Islam rules/texts.

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As I have said already, it is very simple for a woman wearing the veil to be taken in private by a female member of staff and prove her identity, it should have any affect on her sitting for jury service at all.

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Simple question.

Would you like a witness in a veil giving evidence against you that could send you to jail?

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Does a veil impair their intelligence and common sense?

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shouldn,t think so, but facial expressions,mannerisms etc must surely be of some value to a jury/judge etc?

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What’s that got to do with it?

Do you always answer a question by asking a question? Or is it possibly that to answer the question truthfully you would shoot yourself down in flames?

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Oh sh**, I agree with jb too, i'm off to the special needs thread!! :eek::eek: Aaarghh, TWICE!

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If I had a choice of 12 veiled women on the jury or 12 chavs, I'd pick the veiled women. If I had to choose between veiled women or 12 people who didn't really want to be there because they felt they had better things to be doing I'd pick the 12 veiled women.

Why would anyone get the idea they wont be able to tell the difference from a guilty or innocent person just because their face isn't visible? They can still see and hear perfectly well, which is the same as any jury member.

The question of a person being tried in court wearing a veil is a different matter, facial expressions can be useful to the jury, but facial expression alone doesnt prove guilt, its what is said that matters most, and expression in the voice itself can be as revealing as facial expression.

I may be the only one who can find a solution to the problem rather than saying they shouldn't be allowed, but I found the way the other option was worded to be intentionally the one that should be seen as the right answer.

I am entitled to my opinion, and you dont need to argue your point to try and change my mind, the poll speaks for itself and I know you all disagree with me. No need to argue about it.

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The point is that facial expressions can help, along with other factors, to build up a total picture and that's why veils should be removed in court. And, as your argument about veils being "important in the muslim faith" seems to have been disproved, there's really no reason for defendants not to remove them.

Still, at least, you've fought your corner, Blazey...funny, isn't it, how all the Nu Labour politicos have very carefully avoided this thread? :rolleyes:

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dont think so,thought she was responding to jambuttys question?

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think wyn is refering too the people IN politics not the ordinary voters, who say everything to me by their absence in the thread.;)

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I'm a Labourite too, and have posted my views.

I don't blame this woman, even if the cheeky cow, sorry unemployed mother of five, was found guilty of vandalising her council house, and had the gall to complain about the magistrate.

I do blame the namby pamby, bend over backwards culture that we live in, not only in politcs, which is so frightened of appearing bigotted that it allows things like this to happen.

Parties like the B.N.P must be rubbing their hands at the savings they're making from their advertising budgets, as more and more stories like this appear in the press all the time.

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now thats exactly what happens n the cretins are too dumb to see it.:rolleyes:

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I dont know cant make my mind up. Hows that for an answer cashy. Thats why i havent replied in this thread before.

I can see both sides - he wanted to be able to see her face and so to see her expressions etc when she replied to questions being asked her, she wanted to wear the full face veil.

Maybe an idea might have been video conferencing.. she would have been in a separate room and so then could have removed her veil, seeing as she wouldnt be in the same room as a male - female in charge of the camera.

Dont shout at me please ive just been in a labour party meeting!!! :D

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Just a thought.

Even though I think a woman shouldn't wear a full veil in a court of law, because we can't see her face, where does that leave blind people?

Are they to be exempt from sitting on judgement of others, because they can't 'read' a person's face?

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as has been established there is no religious reason to wear, plus the charge was for a magistrates court which many aint got either extra room of facilities,who would pay for such a thing? the taxpayer- when theres no bloody need. therefore not a credible option to me.

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agree on the jury it would maybe look odd,but so what, a witness or accused is a completely differant thing to me. and just a question - do they call blind folk for jury service? i do not know.

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This is just silly really..there's no way an accused person can be tried with any veil/mask in court.
I suppose it could cause major problems if, for example, Batman or Spiderman had to appear in court unmasked..I mean it would totally blow their cover and hamper their efforts to uphold the law!

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well they do say Justice is supposed to be blind (that statue thing on top of the Old Bailey) so I dont see why not , .......but deaf , dumb and blind .........theres a song there somewhere .......

ok I'll go stand in the corner ;) ;)

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I'm not having a go at ordinary Labour voters. What I am saying is that this present government are responsible for this particular situation. After all, it was Jack Straw who reprimanded the magistrate, despite his previous pronouncements on veil wearing. I would, therefore, like to know what real live politicians like Greg Pope and Graham Jones think about it - do they support their government on this, or do they oppose it?

The most worrying part of the "namby pamby, bend over backwards culture" that Gary describes is contained in the last part of his post. This attitude is the most effective recruiting sergeant the likes of the BNP could have and will ultimately lead to more resentment and racial discord and, believe me, I have more reason than most to find that an alarming prospect. :(

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It would appear blind people can do jury service.


Support and assistance dogs

If you have a support or assistance dog it will be allowed into the courtroom. Going to court, particularly as a jury member, can mean long days. If required, it should be possible for your dog to be looked after while you are in the courtroom.
If a court session is long and your dog needs a break, you may need to arrange this with the judge via courtroom staff.
Someone may also be able to take your dog for a walk.
If you require any of these services, contact a member of court staff and they will be able to discuss your requirements and make any necessary arrangements.

The Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) and blind people

In certain circumstances, the DDA allows public bodies to justify less favourable treatment to ensure that a fair balance is struck between the rights of disabled people and wider concerns.
For example, a decision not to call a blind person for jury service in a particular case where it is considered vital that the jury can consider a good deal of the evidence visually is likely to be justified.

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I had a debate with Jack Straw about this personally as he came into the college I attended for a debate with us, the students, about it, and tried to say we sat in order of colour which in my opinion is highly offending.

I told him I found my friends who wore veils spoke much clearer and with much more sense than himself, who stumbled and stuttered over his words throughout his entire speech. He suggested we sat with certain people dependant on our skin colour and me being me had to stand up and say that was absolute nonsense. Thankfully he didn't have the same security at his labour conference in 2005 or I fear I woul've been dragged out of the room like poor walter wolfgang.

Labour are ridiculous and I dont know why people vote for them. I know working class cant afford the expensive education that most upper class tory voters can afford but they dont do the working class any justice by making us look like bumbling idiots. Who's behalf do they speak on exactly?

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For me, the issue of veils is actually quite simple. If a person wishes to live their life according to the strictures of seventh century religious traditions then perhaps a twenty-first century secular society is not the best place to do it. This whole argument smacks not so much of individual piety but of wilful separatism and the desire to prove one's own moral superiority.

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HE didn't put us in that seating plan, he said we sat that way by our own choice. Obviously I was a bit annoyed as my group of friends at college had 2 asians girls amongst us who were sat with us at the time, so he'd chosen to completely ignore that and focus on the girls who stuck to their own groups. I think the main problem is that they fail to see that ethnic groups would choose to sit together would sit together for more obvious reasons than by colour choice, such as they'd share similar music/film tastes, dress sense, all sorts of things normal girls talk about but are completely different across different cultures.

I hate Jack Straw and that is one man i wont tolerate :mad:

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So he's fat then ?

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