Hospital and cleanliness - or the lack thereof
 

Re: Hospital and cleanliness - or the lack thereof
 

My friend used to clean a hospital and he took it very seriously, probably because he'd worked in a dentist before too as a dental nurse and hygiene is really important, but he said a lot of the cleaners were lazy and didn't do their jobs properly. I worry about the state of the NHS hospitals and I hope things drastically change in the near future.

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My mum was in hospital with slight pneumonia, luckily she recovered....but since she come home she has has nowt but illnesses,,,,did she get them while in there?, or is it the after effects of the pneumonia?......
I hate hospitals!!

But i must admit when i went to see her, it did look clean.

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Trouble is panther you can't see germs:(

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very true:(

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Did you neglect to say which hospital on purpose willow? sounds like you didnt need to SEE the germs in there, they were blatantly obvious and disgraceful.

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I just hope you put your concerns in writing...to the Ward Manager and also to the Chief Exec.

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Shocking, but sadly not surprising.

I had occasion to visit our New Super Hospital soon after it opened. In the 5 hours I spent in A&E the bins were not emptied once although they were over flowing. Neither was the floor mopped even though there was dried blood on it.

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the childrens day ward was spotless and was cleaned while i was there....

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It was a better system when the cleaners were 'in house' rather than lowest tender....and also better when the cleaners had their own allocated wards......they felt part of the ward team and were very conscientious.......I'm not sure if the same systems are in place anymore...but Lettie would know.

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Why so they can ignore it? It is their fault, especially the ward manager for the state of the ward. Do ward managers not inspect the condition of their areas of responsibility?

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I think the childrens ward had its own cleaner... she was pottering about all day.

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I was in Warrington hospital for 2 weeks, just after New Year, with pneumonia. The ward I should have gone to was closed, initially, because they had been ordered to deep-clean it. I, along with my fellow chest patients, was moved to the newly cleaned ward 4 days later (after we'd all had sickness and diarrhoea - as if we weren't ill enough to start with).

I was only discussing with my daughter, yesterday, that I never saw the cleaner mop into the corners of the ward floor and she never pushed that mop underneath the head of my bed - just wiped around the other end. My bed was next to the window and the only time the sill got wiped was when when I did it myself, trailing my oxygen canula, with a wet paper towel. The same applied to my locker.

The cleaner was a tiny woman who looked about my age but was probably younger. I would like to be able to at least partly excuse her on the grounds that she had too much to do in too short a time but I can't. There was no urgency about her, she certainly didn't rush, and she didn't apear to have any more energy than I had. She also didn't appear to have any supervisor making sure she did a proper job.

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Its a shame she was not cleaning all day :rolleyes:

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It cannot be ignored if it is put in writing - the hospital is required to respond to written complaints to acknowledge them within two working days.......they then have to investigate the background of the complaint.......statements are taken from all the staff involved......and then they have a time limit in which to let the complainant know what is happening in respect of that complaint.
Verbal complaints can be ignored, but there is a procedure to make note of and respond to even verbal complaints.

If no-one says anything then it is pretty sure that nothing will happen.
Hospital staff(in my experience) try to do their best for patients.......they do not go out of their way to be nasty and unhelpful, or for that matter put patients at risk...they are accountable for everything that they do.

And I was ward manager......though I preferred the term Senior Sister, and I did inspect the ward areas many times a day during my shift, I was ward based and I kept my eyes and my ears open so that situations were spotted before they became problems.

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To be fair people, particularly patients should not have to complain. When y our ill the last thing you feel like doing is making an offical complaint.

Re: Hospital and cleanliness - or the lack thereof
 

Re: Hospital and cleanliness - or the lack thereof
 

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Are you telling us the story then?

Re: Hospital and cleanliness - or the lack thereof
 

Re: Hospital and cleanliness - or the lack thereof
 

Re: Hospital and cleanliness - or the lack thereof
 

By writing a letter of complaint you will be doing us all a favour. :mosher:

By ignoring it you are turning a blind eye to the filth you have witnessed therefore nothing will be done about it.

Many more people will then be at risk of catching serious bugs in hospital.

It is your duty to your friend and everyone else to write that letter.

How could you writing a letter backfire on your friend? :confused:

They won't make her lick the floor clean. :rolleyes:

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Re: Hospital and cleanliness - or the lack thereof
 

I know what you mean Willow but still think it needs reporting via letter, for goodness sake there is no need for it!! You are a concerned friend not a grumpy one

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Oh my god, bring back Hattie Jaques,,,,there was none of this nonsense in the 60,s ,,even the sheets had to have neatly folded corners or there was trouble,,,cleanliness was top priority,,you could smell the dettol as soon as you arrived.

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What is slight pneumonia, you either have it or you dont. Can you have a touch of broken leg as well.

I went to school with a girl who had pneumonia, she ended up having two thirds of one of her lungs removed. I did wonder at the time if she had something more nasty but never asked her.

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Willow, they can't mistreat your friend for you putting in a complaint, that's illegal and I think they wouldn't risk doing such a thing if they knew you were quite happy to complain about them in the first place.

I am glad I always have my camera with me, never know when I might need to take a picture of something to back me up. I'm a complainer too, and I haven't failed to get an apology yet for bad treatment. Stern words in a matter of fact context will get you everywhere.

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My response was a relevant and sensible(to me)suggestion.......there are very many genuine hard working staff in the NHS.
These people are all tarred with the same brush when you denigrate them all.....they have a very tough job and their morale is already at an all time low.......a response like the one above does nothing at all to change the situation, and makes the hard working staff feel that it really isn't worth carrying on in such a thankless task.

I no longer work in the NHS, but I know very many competent, compassionate and conscientious people who do, help them to do a better job by reporting, in writing,any deficiencies you see.
And it is courteous to let the Ward Sister/Manager know of your concerns in writing......he/she is obliged to take action. I reiterate, complaints like this cannot be ignored.

Re: Hospital and cleanliness - or the lack thereof
 

Willow, the complaint cannot backfire on your friend. Please follow my suggestion. It may show the Trust that the ward in question, does not have the resources/time/ staff etc to do the job they are paid to do. You may actually be helping the staff by complaining.

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I think the bottom line is that the nursing staff are overwork, and It should not be down to them to make sure everything is spik and span, they have enough to cope with treating the sick. There used to be a cleaner on every ward, but I havn't been an in patient since 2002 (I just don' want to go into hospital any time soon). I used to spend a lot of time on the old E3 at Queens Park and the sister on there wouldn't stand any messing at all, things were kept clean or else

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Please could some one tell me where all these overworked staff are?

Everytime I go to Outpaitnents there seems to be plenty of nurses chatting and standing around drinking cups of tea!!

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Lol, you obviously haven't visited a medical/surgical/maternity ward for a long time then. It is possible to now work 13 hour shifts and not have a single brew on these wards. In my opinion we are perilously understaffed on the wards both by qualified nurses and support staff. It is possible to not see a cleaner for a full shift if it is the usual ward cleaner's day off. I have had to ring domestics on several occasions just to get our bins emptied.

If I won the lottery I would ****** off tomorrow because I am sick and fed up of not being able to do my job properly. Staff shortages, equipment shortages and ever increasing paperwork and red tape mean that I am constantly tied up doing other peoples work on top of my own. I feel, at times, that I cannot give the care that I have been trained and worked hard to give, due to having to deal with all this extra cr@p.

Visitors and patients do not help when they don't complain....... So please, feel free to send complaints in to the highest possible person because, until enough people complain, nothing will be done. If you think that staffing is an issue in your complaint, then, say so.

You will be helping us to help you.

Re: Hospital and cleanliness - or the lack thereof
 

Thank you Lettie for justifying my posts.

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Polly, I have been out of the NHS for 6 years, but I can tell you that what Lettie says is true.
Even six years ago i can recall doing long shifts without a break of any description....and I hear things have got worse.
I think I retired at the right time.

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I can't really do with people who slag of doctors and the nursing staff, if you see staff standing around drinking tea then they've bloody well earned it:(

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I don't doubt what you say about the wards but it would appear to me that outpatients is totally different.

I have noticed on a number occassions the same member of staff either drinking tea or taking dirty cups away and there always seems to be plenty of other nursing staff wandering around almost aimlessly. Maybe if some of these staff were on the wards attending to patients?

I have also noticed that now the outpatients admin staff are centralised patients have to wait ages to book in.
Since our new Super Hospital opened I have regularly had to wait up to 30 mins on the corridor, (no seats provided). At one particular appointement I felt like I was going to pass out and I am sure I was not the only one who found the wait unconfortable

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Polly, if you have concerns like these then bring them to the attention of the Sister in charge.

As for the staff in clinic being sent to work on the ward...that is not always possible......these staff may be waiting for patients....and the cups they are taking away MAY just have been used BY patients. I used to run the pre-operative clinic for my department and I can assure you that I hardly had time to go for a toilet break...patients were timed at 20 minute intervals.......the whole of the time was taken up in taking a full history, explaining the procedure, taking blood, doing ECG's and Observation of vital signs.

Re: Hospital and cleanliness - or the lack thereof
 

Re: Hospital and cleanliness - or the lack thereof
 

I would address a complaint to the chief exec and/or contact PALS, the patient advice and liaison service.

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im not happy with hospital cleanliness at the moment , as some of you know 5weeks ago i had an infection after a mayor op, and i,ve still got the infection , there testin me for M,R,S,A now ,

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I know how you feel willow as you know I have been goin to the same hospital as you an I have seen some not so very nice things the public tolites for one thing on the way to the cafe on the secound floor are not clean as you have seen for your self also anthoer friend of ours as been to the very same hospital and found seringes still full on the floor of the main entrence and someone els has found used seringes in the tolites and they whant to know why there are so meny cases of MRSA?

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They where more than DISGUSTING, they where RANK, they SMELLT and LOOKED like they HADN'T been CLEANED in DAYS. it was only a couple of days before you that me an my brother whent to use them and ended up waiting till we got to the entrence tolites.

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Maybe someone can explain why Nursing staff are allowed to go to work and go home in their uniforms? The hospital likes to say most infections are brought into the hospital by visitors. What about staff wearing their uniforms to/from work (this includes Doctors)?

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tolites me an willow are on about they are located on the secound floor down on the way to the cafa just next to the service lift. Another thing I noticed is that they keep the tolites on in the main entrence and in the cafa clean. So my Question is this why can't they keep all the tolites clean?

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Good question, the answer to that is that they don't see it that way. the way they see is that the infections are brought in by the visiters not the staf.

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With you on this one Neil.It's not allowed in the catering trade.:confused:

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Re: Hospital and cleanliness - or the lack thereof
 

If the toilets are dirty did you report it to the appropriate person?? Are there not notices telling you who to report to???

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Have any of you actually complained about the visitor's toilets on level 2, and if so, who did you complain to and what was done about it?

Those toilets are cleaned nightly, I think, when there are no visitors around. Visitors often use those toilets to smoke, grafitti and other such misdemeanors as there is no security in that area during the day and staff never use them. Thankfully, patients are not nursed in the visitors toilets (although with current NHS bed pressures, it wouldn't surprise me), so on the cleaning priority list, the visitor's loo isn't exactly a priority.

Let me ask you....... How would your bathroom at home look if a few hundred people visited it on a daily basis and how often would you clean it? Rather than complain on an open forum, why don't you write to the powers that be up at the hospital and express your concerns, or even apply for a job on the domestic services and see if you can keep up with the cleaning any better than the current staff.

It seems to me that people are more than willing to have a go at the public services but are unwilling to acknowledge the good work that is done by them.

As for nurses uniforms, the new policy should put paid to people travelling in their uniforms. Bear in mind that the vast majority of people seen in town, in uniform, are actually nursing home staff or community staff. Nurses, however, have been travelling in uniform for donkey's years. I remember my Gaberdine and the dark blue travelling cloaks which we wore over the uniform. In those days MRSA wasn't the problem that it is now, even though everybody travelled in uniform. When all staff have their new uniforms, there will hopefully be less people travelling around in them.

It must be borne in mind that the NHS has far less beds than it did when it first began in the 40's but treats 3 times more patients than it did back then. I think that this is a massive issue, the beds don't even go cold these days before the next patient is on them. They are cleaned quickly with detergent and made up again. Gone are the days when beds were left to air a bit before re-making. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that more patients + less beds = more chance of infection.

Re: Hospital and cleanliness - or the lack thereof
 

Well said Lettie. I would give you some Karma, but I have to spread it around

With regards to bed occupancy being a factor in MRSA...a recent study found this to be a very relevant factor......everyone demonises the nursing staff without any real idea of what the staff actually do during a shift....we should measure them by what they did, not what they didn't manage to do.

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I would expect the toilets to be checked and cleaned many times a day. After all the people using these toilets then go onto the ward and visit the sick people.

I know many people in uniforms are not hospital staff but I personally know people who are that do it.

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It always used to be as Lettie stated. if you left the hospital in uniform you had to wear a full length coat or cape to cover the uniform....I'm not quite sure when this fell out of practice.
As far as the cleanliness of the public toilets goes, no-one has said if there was any report made to someone who could have dealt with the problem......people complain on here but are reluctant to do something concrete to solve the problem.
Everyone expects someone else to have done it for them.

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Lol......:D Many of the visitors turn up in work gear, when challenged by staff they tell staff to 'f' off. People turn up to visit with coughs and colds and we even had a woman bring a child to the antenatal clinic with her when the child had German Measles.

We have to face facts that not everyone has common sense...:rolleyes:

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Re: Hospital and cleanliness - or the lack thereof
 

Good question, Neil.

I believe that nurses uniforms used to be washed at the hospital to kill all germs. They were washed at a very high temperature I am told.

Domestic washing machines do not get hot enough to kill all the bugs.

I think that this should still be the case and that hospital staff should not come to work / go home in their uniforms.

That would be something they could do to cut the spreading of germs.

The rest is out of their hands.

As for the cleaners, well, as has already been said, there is a desperate shortage and the existing cleaners are faced with more work than they can cope with.

If no-one says anything about it then nothing will be done.

Complaints need to come in and be quantified before anything can be done.

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my daughter (nette) works in the laundry at the royal blackburn, she does not go home in her uniform & has a clean one every day to change into, its the rules of the laundry, i was speaking to a lady to-night at our nette's that is taking over a dept & cleaning comes within her domain so told her " get on accyweb" there are some very upset & disgrunteled people on there they are upset about the cleaning in the wards ie: non existent she said she would have a peep & thats one area she really would look into .

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Thats down to poor management. Who is managing the staff who wear their uniforms to/from work? And why are they allowing it?

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Nurses uniforms have not been washed at the hospital for donkey's years. I started 21 years ago and they didn't wash them then, we had to do our own. The only thing that they would wash was the hats. I used to send mine for washing and starching but they repeatedly came back to me with dirty marks on, I even had a footprint on one of my hats at one point, so I refused to send them to laundry again and started washing and starching my own.
The laundry is no longer big enough to do uniforms (Nette will confirm this). The new uniforms are to be washed at 60 degrees at home, rather than 40 degrees.

Margaret, I think that when they took the Gaberdines off us, it became more obvious that people wore uniform outside. At least the uniform was completely covered with a Gaberdine. :rolleyes:

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Is it normal practise for nurses to change their uniform every day lettie, i've spent more than my fair share of time in hospital and never noticed if this happens:confused:

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I can only speak for myself Jaysay but I wear a clean uniform every day.

When I trained, it was drummed in that you wear clean uniform every day, shower every day and don't come to work looking dishevelled or smelling of BO or strong perfume. I don't know if these values are the same now that nurses are trained at universities.

I do remember a couple of nurses being pulled up about their appearance when I was a student and believe me, this used to be a public bollocking in front of other staff......... It meant that they were only told off once. :D

I have spoken to junior staff myself but usually to get them to remove jewellery, false nails etc. I have never had to tell someone twice, ;)

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I also wore a clean uniform every day...and if that uniform got soiled I would go to the sewing room and beg a spare until I could get another clean uniform...failing that i would use theatre uniform...anything rather than wear a uniform that was soiled.
And I remember sending uniforms to the hospital laundry...the caps and collars were. immaculate, but the dresses never looked as if they had been pressed.
I remember them taking the gaberdine off me when I qualified, but I always wore a full length coat when travelling by public transport...the only time I ever went without my coat was when i drove to work...but I always had a coat in the back of my car.

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[quote=WillowTheWhisp;599317]Hang on a minute who is blaming the nursing staff? :mad:


Willow, I think that the thread broadly criticises any member of NHS staff.......my answers are based on my own experience as part of the nursing team.....nothing more or less.

Re: Hospital and cleanliness - or the lack thereof
 

Unfortuneately, like with anything, when you see people doing wrong, the majority tend to get the blame.

I am sure there are many dedicated hard working people in the NHS.
I believe they are let down by a poor management structure.

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and unfortunately this reflects on the conscientious workforce who bear the brunt of the complaints.
Unfortunately it is all down to money...how much can be saved..which corners can be cut...etc

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well still stuck in bed , still got infection, wound keeps openin , god when will this end , if i didn,t have my laptop , id be goin mad , do try and get out of the house now and again ,

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Sorry to hear that Pussycat...hope you get better soon.

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Hope things improve soon Pussycat, you just take it easy till you are right

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[quote=Margaret Pilkington;599563]
I started the thread and it was aimed at the lack of cleanliness which as far as I am aware is the responsibility of the cleaners.

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Maybe some of the responsibility lies with cleaners, but I think that some people expect nursing staff to direct cleaners or perhaps monitor their work. In truth, the cleaners used to have supervisors to do this.
Cleaners are not allowed to clean up bodily fluids either(or they weren't when I worked in the NHS) so I think that again, nurses were called into question.

I think that we all have a responsibility to ensure cleanliness. If we find that an area in hospital is not as clean as it should be then it should be reported to who ever is in charge of that area...and if nothing is done about it then take it further and put it in writing.

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Re: Hospital and cleanliness - or the lack thereof
 

No, Willow...the spoon should have been cleared up by the cleaner...but if a nurse spotted it...she could quite easily have picked it up(and If I were her manager I would expect her to do that)...the toilets are cleaned in general by the cleaners....except in the case where there has been a spillage of blood or other bodily fluids...the it would have been down to nursing staff to clean it up.

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Did Florence Nightingale have cleaners?

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The problem arises when the cleaners do not have set places of work......when they are shuffled from one deparment to another.....they have no feeling of allegaince to the place they are working. You may say 'yes, but they all work for the same NHS Trust'......and they do, but there are some cleaners whoclean as if their life depended on it, and do a fine job...they have days off and find that someone has been doing their work half-heartedly, and it must demoralise them.
On the unit where I worked, we had two of the best cleaners ever. They pulled beds out every day to clean behind them...ledges and sills were damp dusted......they had a cleaning schedule which they both followed so there was continuity.......and they were invaluable members of our ward team....they knew that if one of them had days off the work would still be done to the same exacting standard and the schedule would be followed.

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I'm afraid that it would have been the nursing staff who would have to clean up that kind of spillage/mess...the same goes for blood, urine, or vomitus.

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I lost count of the number of times I cleaned poo out of the bidets......not a nice job, but it has to be done.
And some patients would blow their nose on the bed linen....and chuck their hair combings onto the floor.

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Did Florence Nightingale work for the understaffed and overworked NHS?

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the way it is atm is that the nursing staff have too much work to do already without them having to clean as well........

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In the days of Florence (Nightingale) most of the cleaning was done by nurses...in fact when I first started nursing, the more junior you were, the more cleaning tasks you did.
There was never a time when you had nothing to do......Sister would send you to the sluice with a tin of chemico to shine the stainless steel bedpans, or tidy the linen cupboard, or wash down all the bed tables(which were cleaned after the discharge of every patient anyway).

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Willow it should have been a number 1 priority...and until it had been thoroughly cleaned, there should have been a notice on the door stopping other patients from using it.

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That is what I thought. so it would seem that in her day cleaning was given more of a priority?That is my interpretation anyway

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wasnt it florence nightingale that decided hospitals needed to be clean and cleanliness would stop the spreading of infections?

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Watched a cleaner making a less than half hearted attempt at cleaning the corridor and one of the toilets in A@E the other week. Seems to me that unless some folk are being watched all the time they take no pride in their work. A sad reflection of attitudes today!!!

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Willow.......I haven't got the 'ump(not sure if you meant me,but I always feel guilty anyway)........and i think that in general the nursing staff will be pleased that you have put your complaint in writing.
I don't work for the NHS anymore, but I do know what a thankless task it can be at times...but there are other times that are worth more than gold.

It is just very hard when you feel like the general public don't appreciate you...and the management don't either. It always seems like someone is ready to throw rocks.

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No, Willow, you are right to complain....and you are helping the nurses by doing so.
Frequently nursing staff will complain to upper management that they haven't the resources to do the job they are paid to do....you are justifying their complaints....and who knows at some point someone may just listen.

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And I think if you recall, I was one of the people who suggested that you should complain, very early on in this thread.

I know that, that may sound very contradictory, but I'm sure other nurses know what i mean...though it isn't easy to put across.

It is just that for a long time there has been an air of 'the NHS is no good' - so it does demoralise, but I thnk we have to balance the negative with some positive stuff.....but the positive stuff doesn't make for good newspaper stories does it.

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Nurses are overworked.....but that doesn't mean we have to standby and let things go by that are damaging and dangerous to the folk who use the NHS.
If I gave you that feeling..... I apologise,it was unintentional. After all I shouldn't care anymore...because that is in my past.

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At the end of the day the welfare of the patients should and must come first. If anybody sees anything that causes them concern it is their duty surely to report it. If more people complained the management just might employ more staff. Just a pity they don't reintroduce Matrons, you can be sure things would improve then!!!!

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I went to visit my Grandad in hospital over the weekend and there was food on the floor around his bed-it isn't his because he can't swallow properly at the moment so god knows how long it had been there.
If we could see it how come the cleaners had missed it?
He isn't well at all and it worries you even more when you are concerned about the state of the wards etc...
We reported it but don't know whats been done if anything ATM.