David Davis wins by-election
 

Higher than expected turnout at 35%, not bad to say Labour refused to stand against him.

Before Davis stood down 69% of people backed 42 days, now just 36% back it. Not everyone's mind is changed, but an awful lot have been.

Of course it is not just about 42 days. Its about the ever eroding liberty and intrusion of privacy by the state, that threatens our fundamental British freedoms. From councils spying on children, to expensive databases about us that make nobody more secure.

Labour, Liberal Democrat, Conservative, people from all parties came together to support this cause.

A message has been sent to Gordon Brown; it has to stop.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Victorious yet again :)

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Yo you 2 when are you getting wed? Will Cammy be best man and the wedding at Tory HQ? Dosnt matter what happens over the 42 days just lets have a nice big ex army base we can lock up scum forget they are there and throw the key away. Personally I would shoot em and save us tax payers a fortune. If the families want to sue then tough they shouldnt have raised these people!!

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

An outstanding example of self-indulgent posturing. It may have escaped your notice in your ivory towers, but the vast majority of British people are far more concerned about their rising food, gas, electric, petrol bills and job security, rather than whether or not suspected terrorists are detained for an extra 14 days. If David Davis is so "principled" perhaps he would care to pick up the bill for this totally unnecessary bye-election (estimated at somewhere between £80,000-£200,000) rather than leaving the already hard-pressed taxpayer to cough up for it. :mad:

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

This was a joke from day one. I'm just pleased to see that so many voters declined from taking part in the fiasco!

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Cost of Government bribe to UDP: £200,000,000
Cost of ID cards that won't make us safer: £20,000,000,000
Cost of keeping innocent people on the DNA database: £1,000,000 a year

Rachel North a 7/7 survivor said liberty is just as important as life and we should not be letting the terrorists win by taking our own freedoms.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

And has any of that changed since Davis's little exercise in self-indulgent ego-tripping? Of course not! A totally pointless gesture!

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Take off the blinkers and look all around the world is not the fairy land you want it to be and never will be!!!

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Will somebody explain to me why did he stand down just to put himself forward again??? I am not thick and know he was against the forty two days thing but why stand as a representative again??

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Easy answer, a big ego :mad:

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

To bring our decline of civil liberties to the agenda. Now there is a mandate for freedom.

You might disagree with the election, but do you not agree with the cause?

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

One thing I will say, Cyfr, you seem to have a bright future ahead of you as a politician...you've got the meaningless twaddle they come out with off to a T!

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Why couldn't it be done at the next general election ? If the government put 42 days in the next government can throw it out. The voters still have a say and the money could have gone to better causes. I presume DD has receipts for his expenses during canvassing :rolleyes:

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

I and many others on here have more important things to worry about, lets be honest it is not going to affect us adversely if a suspected terrorist is held for longer!!! What the people elected to represent us should be doing is trying to stem the ever increasing cost of basic every day things before we find it impossible to live to any sort of decent standard. They should not be forcing by-elections that cost money that just isn't there!!! If he was so dissillusioned why did he not just quit politics altogether???

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

The general election will be about things more important in the short term to people, some of which Wynonie has mentioned. I think the reason he resigned is because he was appalled at the way the Government won the vote over 42 days, it broke the camels back. They bribed Labour MP's, and opposition MP's to get the vote through. A letter from the Labour Chief Whip to the labour chairman of the home affairs select committe thanked him for his help and said "I trust that it will be appropriately rewarded!"

A by election allowed the debate to be about a single issue. One that I feel particularly strongly about, hence why I got involved.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

His campaign aimed to scrap things that would save us BILLIONS. It won't affect you adversely until you or a family member is locked up for 1000 hours and life wrecked if they are innocent.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Might be better off looking at ways of cutting the cost of things that affect us on a day to day basis. Fuel is rising which is pushing the cost of more or less every other commodity through the roof!!!!

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Indeed! Brown should stop wasting money on invading our privacy and civil liberties, instead he should reduce the huge amount of tax they're making on petrol which is really hurting people.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Cyfr, as I'm sure you know, the poem you quoted was written about the Nazis incarcerating people in the death camps because of their beliefs. Hardly comparable with a law which will require suspected terrorists to spend an extra 14 days in a British prison.

I have a very low opinion of this present government, but even I wouldn't compare them to the Nazis in pre-war Germany!

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

In my opinion David Davis stood up for something he believed in(which I thought thats part of being in politics)wether I agree with his motive or not is of no concern.And as for as it being called a sham its not his fault the Labour Party decided not to field a candidate,so cant understand the wingeing.And for the record I would have said the same if it had been a Labour MP that had done it and the Tories had refused to field a candidate.I thought the job of being an MP involved standing up for what you and your voters believe in.Well thats just my view on the situation.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Was there any real need to resign??? He could just as easily let his views be known and not have forced a by-election at such a great cost.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

He stood up for what he believed in when he voted against the 42-day rule in Parliament. Imagine what would happen if every MP stood down everytime something was passed through Parliament that they didn't agree with, thus forcing a bye-election? And it's a sham because there was absolutely no need for it and it has changed nothing.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Yes I understand but in this instance it wasnt just 'The Rule' was it ? But the way it was passed.With all the alleged wheelings and dealings.There was more to it and I think he felt something wasnt right so he did what he did because of his feelings and what he believed in,and still got voted in.Like I said wasn't his fault there was no proper opposition to come up against,that 's all down to the labour party and like I said if it had been roles reversed I would have had the same views.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Deals and trade-offs to get bills through are a fact of life in Parliament - on all sides. Also, as I understand it, Davis had stated his intentions to stand down if the bill went through, beforehand, so it wasn't a protest about the way it was passed.

Once again, I would say, there was absolutely no need for this farcical bye-election and it has changed absolutely nothing - apart from landing us, the taxpayers, with a needless bill.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

but then you can see both sides of the coin, never met ya n ya were wearing blinkers.;) i aint even gonna discuss this with him.:rolleyes:

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Davis had an ego boost with this!!!! Nowt has change and all he did was show he and his blue pals are twallies.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

[quote andrewb] It won't affect you adversely until you or a family member is locked up for 1000 hours and life wrecked if they are innocent.[/quote] Am pretty sure that it won't adversely effect me at all then!!!

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Am pretty sure that it won't adversely effect me at all then!!![/quote]

Half the people locked up without charge are innocent, so.. it could well be you, me, or any other innocent. Personally I dont think thats right.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Did they ever decide who came second Andrew ? (were doing a recount last time I heard) .. out of the 25/26 other unknowns. :D

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Greens came second even after the recount, though only around 7% of the vote. :D 23/26 lost their deposit. :p

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

how can you claim victory when he had 5000 votes less than at the general election when for the rest of the country polls are saying tories are having a larger share of the vote.this was nothing about protecting civil liberties this was cheap political point scoring in the biggest tory stronghold in england.tories civil liberties dont go together.they used the police as a political football against the miners ,tried to curb free speach by passing the protest bill,tried to get all working rights abolished and opposed the national mininuim wage.made cuts to schools and education budgets stopped any investment in any local services till they were reaching breaking point.they ripped off the british taxpayer by selling off the infrastructure of britain to their mates ie british gas ,british telecom ,british rail,the british waterboard.if they never sold these companies off we wouldnt be in the mess we are now.the gas ,water,electric could keep the price of fuel down not reeking any profit for their chosen few of shareholders....civil liberties you are a joke and always will be.you are the scum of the earth you would rather everybody starve than affect your chosen few profits..you would rather the working class work 90 hours a week and make you more money you have no social concience.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

More pointless, and less entertaining, than Big Brother, and at least the British public don't have to foot the bill for that.

Still, if some people are elated at such a hollow 'victory', more fool them.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

That dosn't say much for the win if BB is better G. The celebrations will be big for a couple of bods. :uzi::thankya:

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Turnout was half that of a general election yet he only got 5000 less votes, that is a really good result. He didn't run on a party platform with a wide range of issues, he didn't run on his own record, he ran on the issues of freedom which gained cross party support. His votes went from 44% to 71% as a result, a massive increase. It isn't the biggest tory stronghold in Britain at all. If Labour and Lib Dem voters had voted for another candidate he would have lost his seat.

Abolished workers rights? Rubbish. Trade Union members were allowed to go back to work rather than being forced to strike by the diktat of trade union bosses.

If we hadn't sold the companies to share holders, which anybody could become, our economy would have collapsed like it was already on the verge of. Fuel would not have been cheaper, the companies would have massive waste to drain all our taxes. We'd be paying the same for fuel but have to pay more tax too. Worst of both worlds. Socialism doesn't work.

I'm scum of the earth?
I would rather everybody starve?
I would rather the working class work 90 hours a week?
I have no social conscience?

You clearly know nothing about me, or why I am getting involved in politics.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Did he win then:confused::D:rolleyes:

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

When will you come out of your little dream world, Cyfr? Venture out of the lofty confines of the Hull University Conservative Association and talk to ordinary people on the streets, on buses, in shops, in pubs. Most people really could not care less about suspected terrorists having to spend an extra 14 days in prison. They are far more concerned about the worrying rise in the cost of living and the frightening escalation of violent crime in this country. Face it - this whole farce was A WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY!!

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Or it was a brave and noble stand, by a fearless fighter for civil liberties.

Ok, you are right.:D

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

I have spent every day of the last month talking to ordinary people about the erosion of liberty and people do care, its no dream world, its the real world. If people didn't care turnout would be low, it was unexpectedly high. It was not a waste of time, it highlighted the issues brilliantly.

Would you not care less if it was you or your family were locked up for 42 days? Not knowing why you were there, being presumed guilty by the national media, losing your job? Because I would certainly care.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Do you think he would have been re-elected if he had stood as an independent on the issue, against a conservative ? No he wouldn't, many people vote for a political party regardless of policy.

I would have respected him more if he had stood as an independent.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

He is a conservative not an independent, but yes many Labour and Lib dems voted for him.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Oh so while they were voting people were stating which way they voted and what was their normal practice??? Sounds like someone has been at the fairy dust to me. Too many assumptions and if the Lib Lab voters did go that way then it dosnt say much for him. Or maybe it is a case of trying to make it look like he can swing the votes to your political god in parli!!!!!! If a true conservative then why go through with it in the first place??? If it was to prove a point wether personal or political then it reeks of an ego the size of Westminster!!!!!

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

As I said I've spent the last few weeks talking to people about it. I had lots of people say they were lib dems/labour, always have been, but on this issue they would vote for David Davis. They made it clear that they wouldn't be voting for him in a general election.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Bit of a Hobson's choice though I suspect Andrew ... none of the other candidates seemed a decent proposition.

Has he been offered a job yet in the Shadow cabinet do you know or relegated to the back benches ?

I couldn't agree with what he did either .. just childish and churlish. Would probably have been one of those kids who when refused a toy would run away around the block to cause hurt to the parents, and then creep in through the back door. Only difference is he didn't exactly creep back in quietly .. got himself a good slice of publicity.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

I have to say that I was amiss when he stated what and why he was doing it, as I knew that Brown wouldn't risk another humiliation, and the Liberals agreed with him anyway, to me it was just a pointless exercise.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

What people say they will do can be different from what they do and unless someone was peeking over their shoulder the vote is still secret in this country (those freedoms he ran for allow that) . The lib n lab voters could have stayed at home but more conservative and floating voters could have been out. To assume through a conversation that someone is going to vote for one candidate is blinkered and naive.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

wonder how many postal votes he got;)

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Don't know but Graham Jones will find out for you if you ask him nicely:D

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Cyfr, you must be mad, quite literally mad, if you think that the public at large is concerned about whether or not the detention period is 42 days. David Davis was voted in because many voters would vote for a monkey if it was wearing the correct rosette. Also, the only opposition was minority parties and the great British public doesn't vote for minority parties (and I say this as a paid-up member of one of those minority parties!).

In fact, I would say that although the Tories voted against the 42 detention period in Parliament, the majority of Conservative supporters on the ground would be all for it. Perhaps we could have the opinion of Conservative supporters on here...Jaysay?

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

You know I admire your political fire mate, but this is something I don't get about you:
In [most] other threads you denounce any link between your modern-Conservative fellowship and the actions/views of Thatcher-era Conservative government.
Yet you use the term 'we' in the quoted passage as if you are in full support of Conservative decisions from way back when.
Which one is it? Tory for life (and before your lifetime) regardless, or Tory because you think the party is right for today's world?
Can't be both mate, interests conflict.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

People do care about 42 days, and civil liberties as a whole (Davis didn't just fight this on 42 days). People from yorkshire are pretty direct, if they say they'll vote for Davis because of the issue, generally they will be telling the truth not fibbing. I think people are being a bit silly if they think speaking to people in the street means nothing because I'm not looking over their shoulder. Recent polls for Crewe and Nantwich and London Mayoral elections turned out to be deadly accurate too. I somehow doubt all the people that told me they were lib dems or labour actually just said it as part of some kind of big conspiracy. I'm sure canvassers from all the parties will tell you they're normally quite accurate, or they wouldn't bother using canvassing information for poll day!

If it was because there were only small parties turnout would have been much lower, because Conservatives, Lib Dems and Labour alike would have just not gone out to vote.

1,300 Conservative party members were polled:
The Conservatives should repeal 42 days pre-charge detention when/ if we come into Government.
Agree: 87%
Disagree: 8%

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

The current Labour and Conservative parties support privatisation don't they?

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

You used the term 'we' for Thatcher's Conservative government. Modern party views are irrelevant therefore.

Do you support the shoddy handling of privatisation by past Conservative governments and the mess we are left with now (especially with transport and energy companies) just because privatisation was necessary?

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

OK, then, Cyfr, if you think people are so concerned about the issue, put it to the test - run one of your polls on here.

Incidentally, I see that none of your fellow-Tories have come on here to support you yet...still, I suppose it's early days.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

You forgot to mention the other issues the jam sellng Tory grass roots would like;

repeal the minimum wage
repeal the Social Charter
abolish tax credits
repeal health and safety laws

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

I thought the whole point of this fiasco was the he WAS just fighting it on 42 days!!!!!

What else was he fighting it on?

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

I used the term we as in the country, because government does things on our behalf.

I think we're left in a mess with rail yes. Until an alternative I like is proposed, I don't support privatisation of the rail network.

As far as energy companies are concerned, prices are rising all over the world, not just in the UK. You have to ask yourself what government can do to help the consumer though, for example with petrol I think government should lower the tax it takes as the price rises, so that the consumer is less hurt by the rises.

Souldnt this be in 'Ask a Tory'? ;) :p

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

If you watch his resignation speech, as of course you don't live in Haltemprice and Howden so won't have got all the literature, he mentions numerous things. Some issues include ID cards, DNA database for innocents, people abusing CCTV, councils terrorist-like snooping for petty things, 266 powers to enter somebodys home..

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

we will don't worry...just taking a backseat at the moment.
Watching Labour go further down the pan. :p

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

A question: where do the tories stand on the NHS? Are there any moves to privatise health care along the American lines?

My personal opinion, for what it is worth, is that there is nothing wrong with a mixed economy: some things privately owned, others public. Power and rail transport, and in the cities, public transit seem to fit well as public concerns, under govt. ownership.

But you guys can no doubt deal with the jerks you have in power, we Canadians can deal with our own ... the tories here are taking a beating over Afghanistan esp in Quebec, unfortunatly it took heavy casualties among the Vandoos (Royal 22nd) to accomplish their slide in popularity in la belle province.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Something else just crossed my tiny mind: In Canada we have several Crown Corporations, the Canadian Wheat Board for eg, which are sort of half way between public and private ownership ... is there anything like this in England?

Sorry for the wander on a serious topic, but it is not worth a thread of its own.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

don't worry mate neither was David Davis.:rofl38::rofl38::rofl38::rofl38: pmsl.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

[quote=SPUGGIE J;605192]Yo you 2 when are you getting wed? quote]

Not sure when, but I reckon we might be able to set up a few webcams and sort out some live broadcasting for you all.

There are plenty of other people who support the same political party. We aren't going to get married just because we support the Conservative Party. I usually end up with the socialists anyway :rolleyes:

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

he he tory does a u-turn you are goin against the so called ideoligies of your party so your not a real tory:Dagainst privatisation:Dif past goverment had nationalised the north sea oil industry we wouldnt be in the mess we are now...

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

[quote=blazey;605977]Blast you 2 would make the Accy web equivelent of the Clintons. :rolleyes::p Besides think of the arguments you could have with a socislist. :dflam::dflam::dflam::dflam::dflam:

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

It's right in front of your face and you can't see it, can you, Cyfr?

The vast majority of people who have posted on this thread think Davis's gesture was a waste of time and aren't worried about 42 days detention for suspected terrorists. Do you think that the cross-section of humanity we call Accyweb is somehow different from the British public at large?

And why aren't your Conservative colleagues on Accyweb rushing in to support your view? They're all remarkably quiet, aren't they? Could it be that the likes of Jaysay and co are actually in favour of 42 days detention...or perhaps more?

One of these days, Cyfr, you're going to have to come out of your cosy little dreamworld - it's going to be one hell of a shock for you when you do!

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

57% of the public in a poll support Davis's decision to force a by-election, 32% don't support it and 11% don't care either way. When he resigned 69% of people supported 42 days, 4 weeks later, just 36% support it. I am not in a dream world.

I just care about innocent people being locked up for 1000 hours without knowing why, without being charged, without having any evidence against them, and with the prospect of it increasing in the future, as 42 days was not necessary but it was passed, so why not 52, 62, 82. You're perfectly entitled not to care, but please don't try and suggest that others don't!

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Is he going to resign next month and fight a by-election on knife crime, or does he not care that rather than people losing 42 days of their lives, they will lose all of it ?

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Yes, you are in a dream world if you believe dodgy poll statistics. Just step out of your student debating society and into the real world for awhile. Look at the views expressed on here, or even better, go and ask the members in a few Tory clubs how concerned they are about the 42 day rule...I think you'll soon get your answer!

Incidentally, I see that others who have declared themselves to be Conservatives on here are still conspicuously failing to support your views (although Roy has promised to say something on the subject at some point)...funny that.

Oh to be in Cyfrworld now that summer's here! :D

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

So you say the polls done by official polling companies, are dodgy. You say the poll done by ConservativeHome is dodgy. You clearly think everyone on the streets of Haltemprice and Howden are fibbing. Labour MP's, Liberal MP's, who came to help didn't care, heck I guess Bob Geldof didn't care.

You must be right because a couple of Tories haven't come on here to agree with me. The other couple of thousand are anomalies.

Why let the facts ruin a good story eh. :D

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Cyfr, I regard opinion polls with the utmost scepticism (and certainly one run by an organisation called ConservativeHome!). After all, the opinion polls predicted that Labour was going to win in 1992. As for the people you talked to in Davis's constituency, I think they told a naive young lad what he wanted to hear. I live in the ordinary, everyday world and not in the rarified atmosphere of student politics and I know that whether a suspected terrorist is locked up for 28 days or 43 days is way, way down on people's list of priorities at the moment - and that includes most Conservative supporters!

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Actually, Cyfr, David Davis did achieve something. The Beauties for Britain candidate was so smitten with him that she's decided to vote Tory at the next election. Result! :D

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

It was real politics not textbook politics. The polls that I quoted were correct on Crewe and Nantwich & Henley, using new techniques not used in 1992. The ConservativeHome guy that did the poll was one of the few in support of 42 days, so had no reason to 'corrupt' the poll.

I'm sure you're too high on your non-student horse to accept it though so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

You can quote opinion poll statistics at me all night, Cyfr, they mean zilch to me. I know that in the little slice of the real world that I move in - in the pubs, at work, listening to people talking on the bus, on Accyweb - the vast majority of people are not concerned about suspected terrorists being locked up for 42 days. In fact, many (including many Conservatives) would like to see them locked up for longer! Now, I can hear you saying "but that's hardly a scientific survey" and you're right. But it is an average cross-section of English life and, in my opinion, symptomatic of the mood of the country.

And now I shall be away on my non-student high horse to solicit a few more opinions in the pub...all in the name of political research! :D

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Obviously, I'm not an expert on this 42 day thing .... but I do get the sense that some are cofusing "suspected" and "innocent". Or the fact that "innocent until proven guilty" does not really mean that .... it does in a strict legal sense, but in a real sense it makes no sense at all. The crime does not leap into reality at the time the jury hands down its verdict. I think that "suspect" is used in the same sense that scientists use "theory". I do not see that the English police will randomly arrest Pakistanis and throw them in the slammer for 42 days just for the hell of it.

Hey, and while you are doing your research in the pub, have a couple for me.:D

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Well, after asking in the pub last night and at work this morning, I have yet to find anybody who is supportive of David Davis and is concerned about suspected terrorists being locked up for 42 days rather than 28 (comments ranged from "I've more things to worry about" to "I'd lock 'em up for longer.").

So where are all these people from Cyfr's polls?...have you come across them anywhere?

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Although I thought that DDs byelecion was a bit pointless really, it was not just on the 42 day issue, it was on all aspects of civil liberties, which are being rode rough shod over by the government, just thought I'd make the point

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Yes, I have come across many while canvassing. I have been at the receiving end of thousands and thousands of e-mails, letters and phone calls in support. I have seen the huge amounts of money being donated from people who are not all Conservative party members, but believe that the state is becoming ever more authoritarian.

I don't suppose you're informing people that half are innocent and the increase from 28-42 days is not needed to name a couple of the arguments. The 'I'd lock them up for longer' - Why would you want to lock innocent people up for longer? If they are actually terrorists then yes, lock them up and throw away the key! But this legislation is NOT doing that.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

I don't "inform" them of anything - I just ask them what they think. Unlike you, I don't have to feed them propaganda to make them come out with the answers to support my views. I also treat them with a reasonable amount of respect by assuming that they have looked at the issue and come to their own conclusions. A marked contrast to chattering class (would-be) politicos like yourself who assume that the public have to be patronisingly guided. One day, when you get out into the real world, you'll discover that people don't like to be talked down to.

Why would I like to lock them up for longer? I wouldn't - I think that 42 days in fine. If observation had formed part of your education, you would have noticed that I was actually quoting somebody else.

As for 50% being innocent, this means that 50% are guilty which, as far as I'm concerned, justifies the policy. I would rather see a few innocent people locked up for 42 days, then one terrorist slip through the net.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

It's not talking down to people at all. It's not propaganda at all. It is simply making people aware of the facts. A lot of people I spoke to had no idea that innocent people were being locked up for long periods, and had no idea that an increase from 28 - 42 days was a number plucked out of the air.

I don't know how you can possibly justify locking innocent people up for 28 days, which at least has been required by the police, where as 42 days is just not necessary. Worst of both worlds, have innocent people locked up for longer and won't be needed to make us safer. Are you going to say its fine to lock people up for 100 days, 1000 days, and it doesn't matter if innocents are there, as long as some terrorists are caught?

Of the two guilty people detained to 28 days, evidence was obtained on the 4th and 12th days, no more evidence was unveiled. They were bailed, which shows they were no serious threat.

What is patronising is to constantly suggest that I'm wrong because I'm still in education and therefore know nothing.

Now when you highlight these arguments, which the government has tried to avoid, people tend to take a different view, as the polls show. If you're just asking them point blank without giving them the argument, you'll get the same result of the original polls that the government used as an argument, overwhelming number of the public in support.

I don't think its patronising to inform people of the facts and arguments. It's not exactly something you should just know is it!

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Surely, the issue at stake is not about how long people should be detained for but WHY innocent people are being detained in the first place. What is it about the 50% of people that made someone think that they should be detained?

We would all seem to agree that if someone is guilty then that's fine, detain them until you get the evidence and then throw away the key. But why are innocent people being detained in the first place - or is it just that they are guilty but the police can't get enough evidence to keep them - one has to wonder?

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

im still wondering when the tory party turned into the liberal democrats. is this a tory ploy to steal the liberal democrat vote it all seems tactics to me.a win at all cost which will probably backfire on them. their consultants are probably telling them the reliable vote are old age liberal pensioners in the key seats they have to win so lets split the liberal vote;)my side are splitting ive laughed that much .they are so transparent their ribs are showing through their suit jackets.they must think we are bananas:Banane10::Banane10::Banane10::Banane10::Ba nane10::Banane10::Banane10::Banane10::Banane10::ba nhat::banhat::banhat::banhat::banhat:

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

its simple really it aint wondering gayle to me, as well as innocent ones,some are guilty but enough evidence cannot be obtained, thats not a shrewd brain speaking, its common sense, something cyfr sadly lacks.:rolleyes:

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

The whole point is, we don't know whether they're innocent or not until they've been investigated. Are you suggesting that we have less than 28 days? Perhaps you'd prefer to go back to the pre-2000 period when we only had 48 hours?

I've not mentioned 100 or 1000 days, I've already said 42 days seems reasonable to me. The point is that terrorism itself has become more complex and sophisticated over the years. Gone are the old days of IRA plots involving one computer and a few disks. Modern terrorist plots can involve hundreds of computers, thousands of disks, multiple identities, passports and mobile phone accounts. I would prefer to err on the side of caution by giving the authorities more time to investigate these situations. And, yes, I WOULD prefer to see innocent people locked up temporarily, than to see dangerous terrorists slip through the net, and I make no apologies for that.

But enough of this debating between me and you, Cyfr - you reckon you've got popular opinion on your side and you seem to think your arguments are so convincing. There's a fair cross-section of popular opinion on Accyweb - put it to the vote and see what the results are. Should be interesting!

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Very good point. If the police thought these 'innocents' were at all dangerous to us but just had to let them go because of evidence then they'd still monitor them. As it turns out neither overt nore covert surveillace was used.

Your post raises another point. If you and cashman are suggesting people let go are just lack of evidence, then its even more reason to not detain innocents. It clearly does damage to their life as peers will think they're guilty. They could lose their jobs, friends, livelihoods just because they were locked up without charge.

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Thats the argument the government used and it turned out to be completely false. Theres legislation for encrypted data already. All the serious and complex cases have been solved way before even 28 days, so there is no reason to extend to 42. You didn't mention 100 days, but whats to stop the government coming back again in a year and using the same arguments? That we 'might' need extra days? So are you saying you're against increasing it more than 42?

Polls have already been done, you don't seem to believe them, so why would you believe an AccringtonWeb one?

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Awww stop being mean, and give 'em a hug.:D

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

OK, so you don't want an Accyweb poll...perhaps because you know, deep down, that out there in the real world your naive point of view is very much a minority one!

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2386/...210035.jpg?v=0

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Just be happy you were in Cuba when the bill was passed.;)

I'm suprised you didn't hear the sound of a certain someone stamping their little feet.

I'd link the thread, but I'm not that cruel.:D

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Ok, so am I that cruel.:D

Here's the thread...and the poll.

The majority of people supported the government, and the increase to 42 days.


http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...ill-40237.html

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Thanks for that, Gary. Seems like all hell broke loose while I was in Chicago. I think that post 207 really sums up the patronising contempt with which Cyfr seems to regard AccyWeb members. Perhaps he should have stuck to his final statement "that's it, I am out".

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Sorry it was Chicago, not as I said Cuba.

God knows why I thought that.

If you let me know the next time you're going away, I could print off and post any similar threads.

What a ripping read, and certainly beats Jilly Cooper.:D

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Cheers for that, Gary, I shall bear it in mind.

Rosencratz sounds a nasty piece of work. Is he really a mate of Cyfr's?

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

You were out campaigning in Barnfield advocating more money from Gordon Brown to be spent on CCTV by the local Conservative Council. I like to know if you knocked on my door, should we have more or less?

Re: David Davis wins by-election
 

Didn't think you lived in Barnfield. This is not the first time you have accused me of campaigning for something that I quite simply haven't.

Whoever is keeping you up to date with my whereabouts should get their facts right!