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Hang on Jambutty are we talking about Muslims?...at no time does Enoch Powell mention "Muslims" in the speech.. he does mention "Negros" many times... "in 15-20 years time the black man will hold the whip hand over the white man".. not very well chosen words from a man you tell us was not racist!... the speech in full is here...Enoch Powell's 'Rivers of Blood' speech - Telegraph

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It depends what you mean by "devout". Just because a Muslim follows his religion devoutly does not necessarily mean that he is willing to follow the edicts of the "hardliners". My Muslim mate is devoutly fasting for Ramadan, but he tells me that he regards the hardliners with nothing but contempt (although, of course, he could be lying!).

As for Enoch Powell, it's a pity he didn't think about this in the fifties when he was the Minister of Health and actively encouraging immigrants to come over here to work in the NHS. However, you're right, there are areas where the predominant population is composed of immigrants and their descendants. However, I don't see how that proves that they are planning to "take over". There's an area near me that largely comprises those of West Indian extraction - are they planning to take over, too?

I agree that their are parallels to be drawn with pre-war Germany, though - just as Hitler and the Nazis sought to use the Jews as a scapegoat for all that was wrong with the country, so many in the UK are using "immigrants" in a similar way.

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We have to be careful of the 'Silent Majority', How many Chinese are quietly serving away at all hours slowly infiltrating communities with their religions?

Still, I suppose if I had to be forced to eat King Prawn & fried Rice I'd struggle on somehow!
:)

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Damned inscrutable, these Oriental types! Still, I share your thoughts on King Prawn & Fried Rice...bring it on!

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As an atheist I think that if the majority of the population need to believe, then the more religions there are, the better. It reduces the effect on politics of any one of them.

I recall in the days before immigration when the Church of England dominated and there were extremist christians who made Sundays useless and miserable.

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You really should try reading what I wrote and not putting your own spin on it. But then if you did that you wouldn’t be able to have a pop at me, would you?

I never stated that Enoch Powell mentioned Muslims nor did I state that he was not a racist. Enoch Powell was referring to immigrants and their descendants and today that includes Muslims. When he made that speech there were very few Muslims in the UK.

So tell me which of the current Muslim population is not an immigrant or a descendant of an immigrant?

Mentioning “Negro” or “Negroes” FIVE TIMES in a speech of just over 3,000 words can hardly be called many times.

The link that I provided contained a link to the speech in full for anyone interested enough to read it.

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Just a codicil to my post - #100

Dispatches on Channel 4 at 8:00pm tonight entitled – Undercover Mosque: the Return.

As it states in the Radio Times,
“In a follow-up to last year’s controversial documentary, this film goes back under cover to see whether extremist beliefs are still being disseminated in some Muslim institutions in the UK and what role the religious establishment of Saudi Arabia is playing in spreading this hard-line ideology.”

The programme will be repeated at 11:30pm on Wednesday on More 4.

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does anyone else groan when they see that jambutty has replied to a thread they are watching?

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Seems to me that you are the one putting your own "spin" on a speech that was at the time clearly aimed at the Black population...not Muslims as was the origin of this thread.

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Devout means devout and has only one meaning. – deeply or earnestly religious. Although it can also be applied to other areas, wrongly in my opinion – like a devout supporter of Accrington Stanley or a devout reader of a particular author’s books.

A person who is deeply religious will do whatever the leaders decree otherwise they cannot be seen as devout followers.

As I have already stated, in days long gone by Catholics would do whatever the church told them to do for fear of being excommunicated and damned to eternal hell. Islam is no different with its hold on Muslims.

I didn’t say that all Muslim communities are planning to ‘take over’. I stated that it was the hard liners with that plan and if the religious leaders said, “jump” the automatic response would be “how high?” Not, “Well I don’t agree with what you want me to do.”

The time is not right yet for the hard liners to insist on the Muslim masses to follow their ruling. They are not strong enough yet. But when it comes to Muslim matters Sharia Law is being implemented in spite of the fact that it has no legal standing in this country. But it has been muted to integrate parts of the Sharia Law into British law. Another thin end of a wedge.

I can’t help but wonder what will happen if all the 51 councillors of Tower Hamlets are Muslim? There is a majority of 31 now with only 36% of the population Muslim.

I do believe that the majority of the West Indian immigrants were Christians and as Christians they came to a Christian country.

I do not see the immigrants as the reason for the state of this country. That is down to the politicians and greedy have’s. You can hardly blame the immigrants for taking what is on offer. What you can blame the Muslim immigrants for is the cunning way that they have played the ‘race’ card and now benefit from positive discrimination.

But if people don’t want to see what is in front of them, that’s their lookout. Time will tell!

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Why come to this thread then? Just ignore it.

Or is it because you are hoping to find something with which you can take a childish dig at me?

Maybe it is time that there was a kiddie’s section.

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Well all i can say is thank god i work with muslims who have a sense of humour and don't mind us eating in front of them.
And it doesn't look like we will be getting a second microwave at work!
There is one upsetting the applecart and unfortunately these days thats all it takes.
Oh well looks like bacon is off the menu!

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Never trust Jambutty's figures. The actual number of Asian Councillors is 33, all but one of whom is Bangladeshi or origin thereof. Six of these councillors are members of Galloway's 'Respect' party and Galloway is one of the two Borough MPs.

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I happen to believe fairly strongly in the separation of church and state ... there are others, muslim extremists and US ultra-right born-again christians come to mind, who wish to replace the secular state with one based on their brand of religion. This struggle is taking place in Pakistan, Afghanistan (where 93 Canadian soldiers have been KIA in order to prevent it), and in Turkey. And McCain's choice of an anti-abortion running mate is an acknowledgement of this trend in the US.

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I do hope Obama gets in. Looks like the last hope for the States. Sorry to thread wander.

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Not on the subject of muslims I don't.

Too many people either don't or won't see what is going on around them.:(

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Anybody watch Dispatches?

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unfortunately most of Jambuttys post are full of opinionated, bigoted rubbish bulked up with big words because he wants to look smart.

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Jambutty's a pussy compared to the muslim extremists.:mad:

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:)..very ironic ..coming from Emily's cat! :D

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Thought you might like that, I choose my words very carefully.:)

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I just finished watching it.

Interesting that the Saudis are funding much of the extremism that was shown in the programme.

I'll not wait with bated breath for our government to protest, or try to stop this from happening, anytime soon.

Well not until their oil, and defence contracts, keep on coming here.

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Yes I think it needs to be dealt with but won't hold my breath:rolleyes:

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I wonder if anyone else picked up on one tiny piece of information?

The Muslim Parliament of Great Britain

http://www.muslimparliament.org.uk/

When did that happen? I never got a chance to vote for my representative in that Parliament.

We have a Scottish Parliament and a Welsh Assembly yet we cannot have an English Parliament yet somehow the Muslim community have managed to organise a Muslim Parliament that is recognised as a bona fide organisation by our government.

Also the teachers often used the term “Kaffir” or “Kaffer and Kafir” as they spelled it, when referring to non Muslims. This is a derogatory term used by Boers when referring to Black Africans, particularly in South Africa and Rhodesia and also adopted by white South Africans.

In private they teach religious hatred whilst the public arm denounces atrocities and is all sweet and nice, promoting harmony.

People really should wake up to what is happening around them.

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Of course my posts are opinionated. I’m stating my opinion on an issue. Just like you have done and so does everyone else.

I choose my words carefully on the assumption that the reader will be able understand what I am stating. So I suppose that you will now accuse me of talking ‘down’ to people.

The art of conversation is to speak in a language that the listener will understand. Taking this premise to the ultimate, there is little point in talking to a French person in English if s/he does not understand English.

Are you castigating me for having the good fortune to have had a decent education both at school and in life? A bit of reverse snobbery there.

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I know you appreciate facts Jambutty so lets get this right shall we?
The origin of the word kafir is Arabic and is usually translated as "unbeliever". In the Arabic language it means someone who who does not believe in, or denies the existence of, Allah. It was not intended as a derogatory term any more than a Christian referring to an atheist means it in a derogatory manner, or a Jew referring to a Gentile. It is merely a distinctive description.

The word was used to describe non-Muslim people by Arab traders on the coast of Africa. The word was adopted from there by Portuguese traders who used to describe the non-Muslim African people with whom they traded. It then spread into South Africa and was openly and generally used to describe African tribal peoples collectively but not in a derogatory fashion, in much the same way as they are today referred to as 'black South Africans' Only during the last century did it become a term of insult used by white South Africans or Rhodesians when referring to black people whom they considered inferior.

So you see, for Muslims to use the word it is neither derogatory nor offensive. It is merely the original Arabic word used to refer to someone who is not Muslim. Many Arabic words are used in Islam - it avoids the problems which can arise with translating into different languages. (Words such as 'halal' and 'haraam' for example.)

Please stop looking for insults and offences where none exist.

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Have a read at this WillowTheWhisp 'Kafir is what the Koran and Islam call the unbelievers. Kafir is the worst word in the human language.'
For more click this link: Political Islam

For anyone else interested try typing taqiyya into Google and have a read at that.

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The Western concept of the separation of church and state -indeed the idea of the modern state itself - grew out of a centuries-long struggle between the kings and the popes of medieval Europe. Few controversies have so idelibly influenced the course of Western civilization. Muslims are not part of this tradition, and any nation that treats them as if they are is risking it's traditional identity.

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Yes indeed let’s get this straight and present ALL the facts not just those that suit your argument.

I see you’ve been Wikipediaing and also cherry picking – again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(ethnic_slur) opens with “Kaffir, kaffer or kafir, which once was a blanket term for black southern Africans (see Kaffir (historical usage in southern Africa)), is now utilized exclusively as an ethnic or racial slur.”

If you watched the programme you would have heard the manner in which the word Kaffir was spat out.

So please recognise in insult when it is spoken and stop trying to excuse the unacceptable actions of some people.

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of course the programe you watched showed every single muslim person there is, not just the ones that would put the point the programme wanted to show across to the public the best.

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If you are going to join a debate do try not to get facetious. Of course the programme didn’t show every single Muslim person that there is. Equally so each view will be presented in the best possible light that and ignore the bad bits.

This http://www.bibletranslation.ws/islam.html makes very interesting reading.

Take some time out to read it.

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Jim.,...I can call you that because I am old enough....you are beggining to get on my tits.....Pull your horns in and don't make yourself look such a pratt.:rolleyes:

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I thought the British Muslims who were interviewed, rather than secretly filmed or from DVD clips, were moderate, and spoke a lot of sense. Especially the woman with the white streak in her hair.

Unlike our government, they at least spoke out about the dangers that oil rich Saudi fundamentalists are helping to spread.

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Judging all Muslims because of extremists, is like judging all Christians on the actions of those who fire bomb abortion clinics in the name of Jesus.

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my views exactly, I cannot hate a whole race of people or judge them because of what some of them think and do.

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It's quite funny, until fairly recently arguably the most famous peson in the world, and the one that always tops the greatest sportsman of all time, is a Muslim.

http://www.muhammad-ali-boxing.org.u...ing-Stance.jpg

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I'll fight religious extremism to my last breath, but I believe you can't judge everyone on the actions of a few.

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The Americans have always been behind the times. They were only copying our trials and executions of the Pendle Witches some 80 years earlier.:D
You aren't suggesting muslims are witches are you?

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Since when did the word negro join the list of offensive words?
I thought it was the word nigger that the PC Brigade had deemed offensive just like they added BLACK to the list.:(

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I bet they where never asked that question.:rolleyes:

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A state based on Islam is much different from one based on Christianity, at least "main stream" Christianity. As any historian worth his salt will agree, as a society grows from primitive tribalism into an ordered civilization, a common religion permeates all its activities and helps to form all its characteristic institutions. The rise of medieval Islam provides a typical example. In such circumstances the creation of political institutions quite separate from the organization of the accepted relgion seem hardly conceivable. Christianity, on the other hand, irrupted into an ancient civilization that already had its own established hierarchy of government and its own sophisticated treadition or political thought based on non-Christian concepts. The Christian church had to develop its own structure of governing offices, sometimes parallel to but always apart from those of the secular hierarchy. So in a sense, Willow, there is no such thing as non-political Islam. Islam is a religion which is also a governing system. And the question that we have to ask ourselves is: Is integration of these two beliefs even remotely possible?

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Seeing as Jim is my name anyone can call me by it. Age has nothing to do with it.

Ah! Poor didums! So just because, as you put it “you are beggining to get on my tits.....” you feel empowered to issue instructions?

When you become my keeper you can tell me what to do. Until that day butt out.

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I remember more than one tantrum you've had about other members calling you something other than Jambutty. This was the only name we were informed you were to be known by.

A break through indeed...Jim.

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My what a selective memory you have. But then that is par for the course on this forum.

I stated that I respond to Jim, James, Buckley, Mr. Buckley and jambutty because those are my names. I OBJECTED to being called things like JB, jam, butty or any other derivatives on the grounds that I wouldn’t know if it was me that someone was referring to.

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Hello? Have we got yet another thread turning into an exclusive Butt joke?



http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies...rent-smilies/#

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If we have then blame garinda.

S/he started it.

Hang on! I forgot! I’m not supposed to answer posts unless it is to agree with whatever has been posted.

Well you know my answer to that.

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What about the French, can we hate them just for being French please? :D

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erm...........Garinda is male, unless it was a dig at something else?

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There was no need for you to answer, we knew it wouldn't be your fault!

http://planetsmilies.net/happy-smiley-611.gif

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Of course, everyone else does:eek:

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As of yesterday, I had 93 reasons to hate militant islam. Unfortunately, today I have 96. And I will probably have over 100 by the time the snow flies.

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don't let them Tories fool you.. a rush and a push and we'll have em gone for good

YouTube - The Smiths - A Rush and a Push and the land is Ours - Video