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-   -   Lordy Lordy (https://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f69/lordy-lordy-45171.html)

Bernard Dawson 01-02-2009 20:04
Re: Lordy Lordy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gayle (Post 674769)
In theory yes. The only problem is that I can see it being abused.

Lords would be affiliated to political parties (the political parties have the money so would be able to finance their election campaigns). The Lords would end up have the same political persuasion as the Commons and would therefore, end up being little more than a talking shop.
The are ways around this Gayle. One way possibly a different voting system for the second chamber, some form of P.R maybe. Other Countries have two elected chambers that seem by and large to work well.

I just think Gayle that in modern democracy in the 21st century the argument that you can have an unelected second chamber that makes decisions that can effect millions of lives is unsustainable

andrewb 01-02-2009 20:08
Re: Lordy Lordy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Owen (Post 674775)

I just think Gayle that in modern democracy in the 21st century the argument that you can have an unelected second chamber that makes decisions that can effect millions of lives is unsustainable
Except it is the Commons whom make the decisions and have a final say on everything. The Commons are democratically elected.

Gayle 01-02-2009 20:28
Re: Lordy Lordy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Owen (Post 674775)
The are ways around this Gayle. One way possibly a different voting system for the second chamber, some form of P.R maybe. Other Countries have two elected chambers that seem by and large to work well.

I just think Gayle that in modern democracy in the 21st century the argument that you can have an unelected second chamber that makes decisions that can effect millions of lives is unsustainable
If you check back you'll find I wasn't defending the old feudal system either. I'm just wary that elections would end up producing a duplicate commons rather than an independent lords and I asked the question - how could this work.

Using a different system could well be an option.

Bernard Dawson 01-02-2009 20:37
Re: Lordy Lordy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewb (Post 674777)
Except it is the Commons whom make the decisions and have a final say on everything. The Commons are democratically elected.
Andrew A Government has a program of legislation that it has put to the country and received a mandate for. If some part of that legislation the Lords doesn't like, the Lords will do all in its power to stop the legislation being adopted.

Where does an unelected Lords get the authority to that from?

andrewb 01-02-2009 20:41
Re: Lordy Lordy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Owen (Post 674788)
Andrew A Government has a program of legislation that it has put to the country and received a mandate for. If some part of that legislation the Lords doesn't like, the Lords will do all in its power to stop the legislation being adopted.
It does not have the power to stop it being adopted though. The government, with its mandate, can refuse to listen to the Lords. It is the government, the House of Commons, which has the ultimate power of decision and legislation and does not need the Lords to agree. :bangh8:

garinda 01-02-2009 23:36
Re: Lordy Lordy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewb (Post 674743)
Having an elected house with no power shift ensures that whatever the government of the day is, cannot be scrutinised, as they would both have the same composition. Where as currently wise people can comment on legislation, but have no powers to halt it, the elected house, democracy, can overrule. Normally however it takes the Lords decisions into account, as the lords often think of useful things that MP's do not.
Again your deferential/forelock tugging use of the word 'wise', when describing the members of the House of Lords.

Some are, some aren't.

I'd question the 'wiseness' of the four Labour Lords who've recently been uncovered in the investigation by the Sunday Times.

If they were that 'wise' they'd never have been caught out, and made to look like greedy slime balls, by the publication of the transcripts of secretly recorded conversations.

Enough of a non-partisan condemnation for you?

garinda 01-02-2009 23:43
Re: Lordy Lordy
 
Two interesting articles from yesterday's Sunday Times.

Revealed: paid peers tried to change laws 50 times - Times Online

Lords for hire - Times Online

garinda 01-02-2009 23:46
Re: Lordy Lordy
 
Interestingly...

'2007 A government white paper proposes an upper house that is 50% elected and 50% appointed. But the Commons votes for a wholly elected Lords.'

Noble ravages: how the Lords has changed - Times Online

steeljack 02-02-2009 07:01
Re: Lordy Lordy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 674824)
Interestingly...

'2007 A government white paper proposes an upper house that is 50% elected and 50% appointed. But the Commons votes for a wholly elected Lords.'

Noble ravages: how the Lords has changed - Times Online
good link ;)

jaysay 02-02-2009 08:49
Re: Lordy Lordy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 674824)
Interestingly...

'2007 A government white paper proposes an upper house that is 50% elected and 50% appointed. But the Commons votes for a wholly elected Lords.'

Noble ravages: how the Lords has changed - Times Online
Although our system ain't perfect by a long way, I sooner have it than the Americans where one man can wield so much power, especially when that one man was George W. for 8 years:rolleyes:

Bernard Dawson 02-02-2009 09:05
Re: Lordy Lordy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 674821)
Again your deferential/forelock tugging use of the word 'wise', when describing the members of the House of Lords.

Some are, some aren't.

I'd question the 'wiseness' of the four Labour Lords who've recently been uncovered in the investigation by the Sunday Times.

If they were that 'wise' they'd never have been caught out, and made to look like greedy slime balls, by the publication of the transcripts of secretly recorded conversations.

Enough of a non-partisan condemnation for you?
You could also say Garinda the events in the Lords last week demonstrates what can happen in an unelected second chamber. The people who sit there are accountable to no one. An abuse of power I think they call it.

steeljack 02-02-2009 09:15
Re: Lordy Lordy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 674873)
Although our system ain't perfect by a long way, I sooner have it than the Americans where one man can wield so much power, especially when that one man was George W. for 8 years:rolleyes:
yep , not the sharpest knife in the box, but thought he was acting partly on information given to him by Tony Blair which resulted in the Iraq debacle ;)

jaysay 02-02-2009 09:17
Re: Lordy Lordy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steeljack (Post 674892)
yep , not the sharpest knife in the box, but thought he was acting partly on information given to him by Tony Blair which resulted in the Iraq debacle ;)
So what your say SJ is the blind leading the blind then:D

steeljack 02-02-2009 09:27
Re: Lordy Lordy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 674894)
So what your say SJ is the blind leading the blind then:D
not really , when you look at history , the UK has had hundreds of years experience in duplicity/double dealing with foreign govts. the US State dept are innocent babies compared to the Whitehall Foreign office ...:D ;)

MargaretR 02-02-2009 09:35
Re: Lordy Lordy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steeljack (Post 674897)
not really , when you look at history , the UK has had hundreds of years experience in duplicity/double dealing with foreign govts. the US State dept are innocent babies compared to the Whitehall Foreign office ...:D ;)
.....and the US government leads the way in brainwashing techniques


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