Is this Justice?
 

There is a report in the newspapers today that suggests that young offenders...robbers, muggers etc who are reliant on drugs, or who can prove that they have a drink or gambling problem are to be let off with a caution.....a 'final' warning(though how many of these will get more that one final warning is anyones guess).
The police may impose conditions......such as attendance at a substance abuse course....or community service of unpaid work.

Do you consider that this is justice for the victims of these crimes?
Do you think it is a soft option for the offenders?
Will it stop re-offending?

Re: Is this Justice?
 

I saw that Margaret, and I can't really put on here what I really think or I'd get barred. A soft option, its criminal, then they wonder why decent people can't go on the streets at night for fear of being attacked, it stinks to high heaven. Don't know whether anybody else has heard this, but I was told yesterday that drug addicts have £15 a day pain into their bank accounts to help them cope with their habit, don't know how much truth there is in this, but it wouldn't surprise me one little bit if it were true :(:(

Re: Is this Justice?
 

It is true Jaysay...and alcoholics have money paid into their accounts to provide them with their drink(though I don't know the amount)......so why should the justice system be skewed to protect these people?
And it means that you aren't safe even in your own home.....because these thugs can break in and all they will get is a slap on the wrist, a community service order and made to apologise to their victim. It is an outrage. It teaches them nothing and lets them believe that they can offend without fear of any consequence

Re: Is this Justice?
 

I think most people on here already know my stance on the crime and punishment argument so i'll keep my thoughts to myself on this one :D

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...tem-27517.html

read at your peril!

Re: Is this Justice?
 

These young ruffians are serial offenders by the way.

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Mine too!

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If only we could dish it out like that, the only problem is he doesn't have a load of bleeding heart bloody liberals screaming human rights at every turn and an Home Secretary that's about as much use as a one legged fellow at bum kicking contest:(

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There's little to act as a deterrent for those who commit crime.

If found guilty I'd bang 'em up somwhere secure and cheap, so it doesn't cost a lot for those who do try to abide by society's laws. Some big, cold, secure industrial unit in the middle of nowhere. No tv, no pool tables, no radios...nothing but basic food, and that only if they behave themselves.

Sadly I can't see it happening, as the perpetrators of crime have more rights than the victims of crime.

Re: Is this Justice?
 

pfft no one forced them to be alcholics and no one forced them to takes drugs so if anythingthey shoudl be locked up double teh sentence if found to be commiting crime to feed a habbit

if these lot get there way shoud i only get a caution if i throw a brick through a shop window to get some ciggys because im gasping for a drag ?

Re: Is this Justice?
 

It seems that whenever something like this crops up on Accy Web, people toss their intellect and common sense out the window; they seem to confuse intelligent and creative response with a spasmodic, ill-thought-out reaction. One sensational new report sends people scurrying for their cat o' nine tails and their nooses. Simple solutions will not work ... Is anyone going to present any stats showing that there has been a massive increase in crime? If someone does, then they may form a basis for a set of reasoned arguments. Perhaps if one looked not at deterrents for crime, but at the incentives, one may get a clearer picture. There is no simple equation: harsher punishment = less crime ... just doesn't work that way. Look at the example that the US gives us, esp. a US governed by right wing republicans. Some of the toughest laws in the world; the only developed Western nation still to have capital punishment; some really tough drug laws .... and what do we get: crime rate in general thro' the roof; murder rate .... well, the city of Detroit has more murders in a year than the whole of the British Isles .... more drug addicts, and most drug related crimes amongst developed nations .... And take a look at the prison population in the US; don't you notice a preponderance of blacks and hispanics? Mmmm, niggers and spics must have a greater tendency to crime than white folks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes: And in Canada, it's the First Nations people who are over-represented in the jails. I wonder if poverty and the unequal distribution of wealth and justice might have something to do with it? O. J. Simpson literally got away with murder, because he could afford millions of dollars worth of legal aid; Tyrone and Jesus go to the chair. I'm not wandering off topic; I'm offering a thumbnail of a model lots of you guys seem to want to follow. Maybe the answers your government(s) are coming up with are not the right ones; maybe they won't work all that well; but that shouldn't stop the search for solutions that will work ... rather than go back to solutions that have been proven not to work. I've expressed these opinions before, with little success .... and I don't expect much change this time around.

I guess I should throw up a wall .... nah, I have the Atlantic.;)

Re: Is this Justice?
 

"A newspaper report that suggests"...since when has a suggestion in a the newspaper been the law?
Do alcoholics and drug addicts really get extra money put into bank accounts? it's all hearsay... someone told me this and someone told me that ....playground gossip!

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It has long been the case that alcholics got extra benefits to fund their addiction, they used to collect it from the DHSS offices. Can't see it being any different now apart from payment method:)

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alcholics DO get extra money for booze but cancer victims dont get extra money for fags

alcholic layabout next door to me even got a carer to go buy it for him coz he was too ill to get to teh shops himself

i use the work " ill " very loosley in that sentence its about time we stopped moley coddleing addicts and either put them out of their misery or force them into isolated cold turkey until they are free of their addiction but sadly theres always one idiot screaming its not their fault when it damn well is

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Have you got any proof of this Bernadette or Accyman.. anything you can post.. because I cannot find any evidence of "extra" payments...only cliams for disability allowance..but that is a basic payment.

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No sorry nothing that I can post to prove it but it has been happening for years. The people getting the extra money were quick to brag about it, not going to name people but there were quite a few of them:rolleyes:

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I have made my opinion clear before on matters of this nature, we need proper deterrents, not encouragement, it isnt too many years ago that one could say 'only in America' but every crime once only rife in places like USA are commonplace here, other country have very severe penalties for crime, and have a lesser crime rate, it is one of the reasons that people queue up to come here! We ARE heading for a society with many vigilantes in my opinion.

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right well what this newspaper story amounts to is= if it was implemented, all the druggies that nearly became muggers,but didn't quite have the balls,will descend on all you good people n mug you, cos no fear of retribution, it don't get much simpler than that! have a nice day.:D

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i think teh govenment hides teh payments under the severe disability payments scheme

heres one quick story i found

100,000 drug addicts and alcoholics on benefits - Telegraph

basicly you get incapacity because your on teh sick , then you get disability allowance which is about £250 every 4 weeks and then they get carers allowance as they cant cope with everyday life and various other things which i think is about a further £20 a week but i would have to look deeper into it

not a bad income realy and on top of all thatthey get rent and council tax paid for and are probably entitled to a little income support as well

like i said not %100 on this ive just had a quick look around and it maybe that they are hiding under severe disability and using that money for booze but im pretty sure one alcholic that liked to brag said the socialservices paid himcout so it may be a seperate payment alltogether

Re: Is this Justice?
 

Never heard of these payments myself but will do a little digging!

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suprised at you mancie.:confused: ya don't live in "Buckingham Palace" do ya?

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Why the surprise?..i'm not gonna start doing my nut over some newspaper report that has not even happend!

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suprised ya asking fer proof they get payments, i knew 2 alkies that did, both dead now, just assumed you would know they do. the stipulation is they must be registered.

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I don't know of anyone getting "extra payments" for alcohol or drug abuse...I read Accymans post from the Telegraph but it don't mention extra payments.:confused:...if extra payments are given then it's a plain disgrace...and stupid

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it used to be £5 a day fer alkies as far as i know.

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£5? not much then... can't even get a decent bottle of Claret for a fiver!

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i'm talking many years ago mancie,god knows what it is now.

Re: Is this Justice?
 

from what i figure they scrapped the extra money for booze scheme and allowed them to claim D.L.A hence hiding them from exposure, they could have a job and still qualify for D.L.A as it isnt means tested

in effect you could work full time , go see your doctor, tell him your dependant on booze and get a consierable amount of money on top of your wage tax free , also if you can prove your boozing effects your ability to get around you may also qualify for mobility allowance which hopefully dosnt mean you will be given a car but the money instead which is around £200 every 4 weeks

considering how low your weekly level of intake of alcohol need to be to be considered to be having a drink problem im surprised everyone isnt getting it:rolleyes:


quite a good life been an alcholic isnt it , you bring misery to those around you and get paid shed loads to keep doing it

Re: Is this Justice?
 

This was passed into law last year without opposition.
And it isn't playground gossip that drug addicts and alcoholics get benefits to pay for their habit.

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No, sadly it is true.

I don't know how much is paid but if you are certified as an alcoholic by a doctor then you are entitled to money.

Very unfair, in my opinion.

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Oh yes you can....claret meaning red....6 bottles for 5 Euros at the local supermarket and drinkable. :)

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What was passed into law?...and still no proof that addicts and alocholics get benefits to pay for drugs and booze....maybe they get a disability benefit and there is an argument to say they should not get that benefit, but I don't believe they get "extra" money to pay for booze or drugs.

Re: Is this Justice?
 

Have a look at this:

Daily Express | UK News :: Now alcoholics can get benfits for three years

Re: Is this Justice?
 

The headline writer at the Express must have been drunk when he wrote it :D

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But that aticle is the same as the Telegraph's...I think we have established that alcholics and drug addicts can get incapacity and disability benefits but earlier posts have said these people get "extra" money to pay for drugs and booze!

Re: Is this Justice?
 

as i said earlier they scrapped teh booze for money scheme and hid them on teh sick , probably because people were disgusted at alcholics getting booze for free at the tax payers expense

they still get their booze money they now just call the means in which they get it somthing different

Re: Is this Justice?
 

I've done my bit Googling for tonight....prove the posts wrong?

Re: Is this Justice?
 

from yahoo answers
Resolved Question

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Extra benefit for a registered alcoholic?

i heard a few people on about extra benefits for alcoholics if they are registered. To be honest I think this is something that somebody just made up as I cant find anything definite about it.
Maybe its just another way of dissing alcoholics
I am not an alcoholic and not on benefits, I'm just tired of hearing about this from people who I dont think really know it to be true

• 11 months ago

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Sorry to disagree with Mystery, but both my brother and his wife have been registered as alcoholics for 20 years, they live in Scotland and receive additional benefit as they both "need" alcohol and it is treated as a dependancy.

It is not much, approx £5 per week each, on top of their benefits. It does not make up for the loss of their children though, who all left home as soon as they were able.

• 11 months ago

Re: Is this Justice?
 

I am sorry but I would not quote the previous response as I think most of it is a rant and a family upset that needs addressing by the family.

Re: Is this Justice?
 

OK...here are some answers for Eric......who thinks that we have all tossed our common sense and intellect out of the window and cites examples of punishment from the U.S.

The Youth Conditional Cautions bill was made law after the third unopposed reading in the Houses of Parliament.......it was part of the criminal Justice and Immigration Bill(schedule 9, section 48 for anyone who wants to check that what I am saying is true)

According to the report which I have read there were, last year,6,500 house burglaries and 6,300 robberies commited by the under 18's age group (the group which will be affected by this bill)......there were also 47,000 cases of theft and handling of stolen goods in this age group.......and these are the figures from the Home Office.
i do not know if this is a percentage rise in this kind of crime by this group of society.......the Home Office are not the most reliable in providing figures for crime.
(they recently provided figures regarding the incidence of knife crime, which when compared with the figures that the NHS provided, outlining the treatment of stab wounds, were underestimated by a large amount......maybe it was Stab a Friend week)

Another reason to suspect the veracity of Home Office figures is, they constantly change the way that the statistics are collected.

So Eric, perhaps my answer is only half an answer after all.

We have had over a decade of soft sentences for all crimes...not just those committed by feral youth....and although I can't provide you with the statistics that would satisfy you...my perception from reading the newspapers(local and national) is that crime is on the up.

Having ditched my common sense and intellect(as you delicately put it) I do not have the answer to the problem, but I am pretty sure that if your 82 year old mother had been mugged and robbed in her own home, you would find it a bit of an insult to have the juvenile perpetrator turn up to offer an apology......and offer to do a bit of painting for her. I think you would want him locked up...but hey maybe I am wrong.

Re: Is this Justice?
 

Oh, and as for the observation about unequal distribution of wealth.......so then, do you beleive that it should be a society where if you want something and can't afford it, then you can take it from someone who has it?

I was brought up in a time when people were poor....but we didn't steal and mug people to get what we wanted.
We were taught that if you wanted something you worked for it.

Re: Is this Justice?
 

Sadly to the detriment of society the old honest values you cherish Margret have gone the way of the Dodo. We are now left with the values of the gutter and destruction that has become so prevelent in our society. Is it not time we forced the issue and went back to the old values and stop the gutter rats ruining our lives and extending their reign of chaos?

I have some of the old values and beliefs and think of them as my old fashioned foibles. Ok I am no teenage/twenty something but I hold my foibles dear and suppose proud of them. I am no angel but I do know right from wrong and respect others rights but they dont even come close nowadays. The thing is though the longer this is allowed to go on the more trouble we are storing for the future not just of my daughters generation but that of my grand and great grandkids.

The outcome will be more interference in our lives from central govenment, god forbid a police state, suspension of our rights n liberties. In other words an Orwellian society of what would be best discribed as one of obedient zombies with the get up and go of a slab of concrete. The only way to avoid this is less interference less reactive and more helpful proactive help. I hope I dont live to see the day that what I cherished is removed because the scum and dirt were allowed to run amok. Should it reach that stage then the phrase "the good old days" will be a very real truth.

Re: Is this Justice?
 

As a postscript to my previous post while listening to a cd a song on it sort of sums up society today and thats Big Countries Troubled waters. Maybe its an omen or forsight I am not sure.

Re: Is this Justice?
 

'The government has already admitted that prisoners benefiting from the early release scheme have committed almost 1,000 crimes when they would have been locked up.'

'Andrew Mournian murdered his girlfriend Amanda Murphy, a mother of two. He attacked her with his fists on returning to the couple’s home in Dewsbury, West Yorkshire. He had been serving time for a previous attack on her when he was freed early'


'Darren Abrams, also a former prisoner, took part in a drunken attack in Portsmouth which led to the death of Jed Sheridan, a 19-year-old student. Abrams hanged himself while on remand. A third fatal incident took place in south Wales last September.'


'Straw has admitted that the deaths were among 181 alleged violent offences carried out by prisoners released early between June 2007 and last October. The end-of-custody scheme has been dogged by controversy. Last March The Sunday Times revealed that two terrorists had been released early.'

Re: Is this Justice?
 

Ex-cons given £5m for losing free board and lodging - Times Online


I find this toatally unacceptable, besides the fact that tax payers are compensating those early release prisoners for loss of free bed and board.


Not enough prison places...build more prisons, which could also boost the economy of the bulding industry.

Re: Is this Justice?
 

Karl Bishop killed the young actor Rob Knox by stabbing him to death.
When Bishop was told that Rob Knox had died....his reaction was to reply 'sweet'.
Karl Bishop did not even go into court for his sentencing. Instead he told the prison officers to take him back to Belmarsh 'as he knew he was going down, and anyway it was good there....I get fed and there is a gym'.
Karl Bishop was a habitual user of cannabis. Would you want him out on the streets to murder another innocent young man?

If this was my son who had died at the hands of this thug I would be devastated to hear this.

Maybe it is an emotive subject. It certainly seems to polarise opinions.

I just wonder how tough these criminals would be if they were dropped into real battle zones....like Afghanistan...but why should the forces have to do the job that the judiciary have so plainly failed at?

Answers.........I have none.

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I agree with your last comment .... I don't have any answers either. In my first post, I tried to say all I had to say as briefly as I could; and then shut up. Unfortunately, in attempting to be concise, I became too terse. I had one point to make: harsher punishments will not deter crime. They never have in the past; they are not working now; and they will not work in the future. I'm not saying that leniency works either. So what do we do? Bounce around from one unworkable solution to another, in the same way that the economy bounces from boom to bust? That gets us nowhere. But we can't solve 21st. century problems with medieval solutions, no matter in what modern clothes we dress them. If that were possible, maybe we could solve the present economic crisis by returning to feudalism! There are major problems in all western societies. And they are begging for solutions, not ones that have been weighed in the balance etc., but new ones ... maybe your government is not finding the right answers, but at least they are trying to get away from the same old, same old.

Re: Is this Justice?
 

Eric, I understand that you tried to point out that the old ways do not work.....but that is because the old ways are not employed anymore.

What I was trying to point out was that the youths who are responsible for these crimes(sometimes in the homes of their victims....where you should be able to feel safe) do not respond to the lenient treatment either......and that it seems that the rights of the criminals outweigh those of the victims.
Criminals should lose their rights as soon as they commit an offence.

Re: Is this Justice?
 

The old ways never worked ... employ them again, and they still won't work ... This is how the argument seems to go: being lenient doesn't work; let's be harsh. Doesn't make sense to replace something that doesn't work with something that doesn't work. (I had a mechanic who worked on those principles:eek:). And while we are wasting time and energy trying to make the unworkable work, the problems get worse. You can be as harsh as you want, as harsh as the Germans at Lidice; or as harsh as the British were when faced with Gandhi; even to the ultimate degree, (the one that is adopted with religious relish by the good folks in Oaklahoma and Texas) ... but it won't work, other than as a very temporary band aid.

Anyhow ... we have a real nice day happening; so I'm off to enjoy it.:D

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I wonder what the crime figures are in China???
And what methods they use to deal with their criminals.

Prison has to be unpleasant for it to be a deterrent.......at the moment it seems that it is not that unpleasant...as long as you can rub along with the other inmates there.

I would hazard a guess that prison is more of punishment to the families of the criminals than it is to the criminals.

Maybe we should ship these thugs off to some uninhabited Hebridean Island
give them food for a week and then let them sort themselves out.......but then I am sure that would contravene some aspect of their Human Rights as laid down by the EU.

Re: Is this Justice?
 

well my grandma was murdered in the miners club by a drunk who strangled her and he got 4 years due to being a drunk so it has been going on a while.

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I'm sorry to hear that Ossywarrior. Yes the sentencing has been a farce for a long time.
But this new Act relates to the under 18's.

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There was an article in one of the Sundays regarding Ian Huntley, it seems that other inmates have been told to stop calling him names as its upsetting him an he has rights, well in the words of Dirty Harry, I'm all broke up about that mans rights, what about the rights of those two young girls who's lives he snuffed out:(

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the old ways may not work but at least if ya "Top" murdering scum, theres one Less on our streets to do it again, how many re-offend after release?

Re: Is this Justice?
 

Problem here is that quite a few innocent people are convicted of murder. Two high profile cases in Canada: David Milgaard, arrested and convicted in 1969 for the rape and murder of 20yr-old Gail Miller, a nurse, whose body was found on a snowbank in Saskatoon; spent 23 yrs in jail for the murder which, by the way, he didn't commit. Guy Paul Morin, convicted in 1984 for the rape and murder of a nine-yr-old girl. That one had folks screaming for the return of the death penalty. Problem is, Guy Paul was innocent; and the murderer is still at large! And the Canadian taxpayer is paying large bucks in compensation to these guys. And there is even one US State, I think Tenessee, that is considering getting rid of the death penalty in order to save money in these tough economic times. Seems like it costs too much to prosecute someone for a capital crime; all the safeguards, appeals etc., cost lots ... I guess they want to be sure that the guy they are frying is really guilty!

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I hear what your saying Eric, but how much has it cost the British Tax payer to keep the likes of Brady, Hindley, Rose West, Peter Sutcliffe, Ian Huntley, in luxury for the rest of their days, I could except it if this scum were made to really pay for their crimes, but they're in nice cushy cells stereo equipment, Sky TV and all mod cons. If this low life, spent the rest of their days breaking rocks then locked up with just a bed and a toilet for the rest of the day, that would be fine by me, but as we hear all to often they've got rights, pass the sick bucket:(

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thats the real insult to decent ordinary people, many of whom cannot afford "sky":( they should return to the old "P.D. n hard labour for these people.:mad: