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jaysay 18-11-2009 09:26
Brown is planning to apologies
 
It appears our illustrious Prime Minister Gordon Brown is going to apologies for kids being sent to Australia in the 40s and 50s, bravo. I would make more sense if he actually apologies about things that have his fingerprints all over, such as the mass debt he'll leave, a wrecked pension scheme, two illegal wars, failure to allow us a vote on the Lisbon Treaty and generally making a dogs breakfast of running the country. Its pretty howell apologising for something he had nothing to do with when he could bare his soul and apologies for all the cock ups and broken promises he's presided over

MargaretR 18-11-2009 09:32
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
We are getting lots of apologies recently - a sign that conciences are being stirred.
Some people need to apologise for being born...somehow I don't think we will ever see that :)

Margaret Pilkington 18-11-2009 13:27
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
I don't get these folk....how can you apologise for something which you have had no part in?

Brown has lots to apologise for, but sending these unfortunate children to the other side of the world isn't one of them...but he could start off by apologising to the people he robbed by doubling their tax bill........tax up from 10p in the pound to 20p.....he could apologise for selling off our gold reserves at a fraction of their value.
And those are only two things that he has had his grimy mitts on.

katex 18-11-2009 21:28
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
I'm sorry Jaysay, but I don't think it is appropriate for you to use this story as a political platform for what other things the Labour Govenment should apologise.

I found this story extremely moving .. something I knew nothing about ... even though it was happening in my lifetime.

These people just wanted recognition of the truth, and that is what the Australian government have given them so far .. to be believed for their stories, which have been heart rendereing.

Children shipped out of foster homes and orphanages (even when some of their parents were still alive) because Australia thought they would be good white stock to build up the population of their country. Lots were used mearly as slave labour, working 5.30 a.m. >> 8.00 p.m. on farms, etc. Some sexually abused, brothers and sisters separated.

The apology was of no use to them, but the recognition that this occurred was everything. I wept at some of their stories.

MargaretR 18-11-2009 21:33
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Coincidentally I switched on radio4 tonight and there was a programme discussing this 'apology' and others ....can be heard here -
BBC iPlayer - Moral Maze: 18/11/2009

steeljack 18-11-2009 22:27
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
This 'apology' is just another typical trick used by Politicians and Civil servants to protect their own....the story has been around for the last twenty odd years but no one "in power " wanted to touch it ........if it had been looked into then , maybe some of those responsible for shipping the children overseas would have still been around to answer a question or two , now forty odd years later its probably to late to ask questions and the 'establishment' is safe and sound.
It would be intersting to know how many of those responsible have been awarded OBEs, MBEs etc. for srvices to children .
Just another reason of why the 50 year rule about keeping Govt. secrets should be scrapped .

jaysay 19-11-2009 08:31
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by katex (Post 763729)
I'm sorry Jaysay, but I don't think it is appropriate for you to use this story as a political platform for what other things the Labour Govenment should apologise.

I found this story extremely moving .. something I knew nothing about ... even though it was happening in my lifetime.

These people just wanted recognition of the truth, and that is what the Australian government have given them so far .. to be believed for their stories, which have been heart rendereing.

Children shipped out of foster homes and orphanages (even when some of their parents were still alive) because Australia thought they would be good white stock to build up the population of their country. Lots were used mearly as slave labour, working 5.30 a.m. >> 8.00 p.m. on farms, etc. Some sexually abused, brothers and sisters separated.

The apology was of no use to them, but the recognition that this occurred was everything. I wept at some of their stories.
I can never see the point in apologising for something you had nothing to do with, its just window dressing to deflect attention from modern day failings. There have been millions of mistakes made over the centuries, are we going to apologies for them all

cashman 19-11-2009 08:52
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 763769)
I can never see the point in apologising for something you had nothing to do with, its just window dressing to deflect attention from modern day failings. There have been millions of mistakes made over the centuries, are we going to apologies for them all
ah but would you have posted it,if there was a consevative P.M.? somehow i doubt that.:D

jaysay 19-11-2009 09:07
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 763775)
ah but would you have posted it,if there was a conservative P.M.? somehow i doubt that.:D
Never underestimate a man with principals cashy my old mate, it makes no difference to me which party it is if something is stupid its stupid end of :rolleyes::D

Less 19-11-2009 09:37
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 763779)
Never underestimate a man with principals cashy my old mate, it makes no difference to me which party it is if something is stupid its stupid end of :rolleyes::D
Oh dear, you've got principles, that's very worrying, it's the same as people with standards always seems convenient to let them slip at the most insincere moment.

At least while I have neither principles nor standards I'm consistent!

http://www.tiptopglobe.com/skin/smile/s11825.gif

jaysay 19-11-2009 09:41
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Less (Post 763782)
Oh dear, you've got principles, that's very worrying, it's the same as people with standards always seems convenient to let them slip at the most insincere moment.

At least while I have neither principles nor standards I'm consistent!

http://www.tiptopglobe.com/skin/smile/s11825.gif
always have had and always will Less, in my book something that's wrong is wrong irrespective of who does it or says it;)

Mancie 19-11-2009 12:31
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 763769)
I can never see the point in apologising for something you had nothing to do with, its just window dressing to deflect attention from modern day failings. There have been millions of mistakes made over the centuries, are we going to apologies for them all
This apology is simply a recognition that British and Austrialian Governments treated British children in a disgusting manner, at least those children (now adults) have had some sort of recompense.
I don't understand why some people are getting all worked up about this apology... but then I do understand .. it's really about having a pop at Brown.

Margaret Pilkington 19-11-2009 13:53
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
I'm not having a 'pop' at anyone.
And while I agree that recognising that such inhumane things happened, I feel that it is insincere to apologise for something that you had no part in, and therefore it devalues the apology.
My feeling is, that you can only apologise, and make reparation for the things that you were personally accountable for....apologising for anything else is just a sham.

Less 19-11-2009 15:00
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 763838)
I'm not having a 'pop' at anyone.
And while I agree that recognising that such inhumane things happened, I feel that it is insincere to apologise for something that you had no part in, and therefore it devalues the apology.
My feeling is, that you can only apologise, and make reparation for the things that you were personally accountable for....apologising for anything else is just a sham.
Sorry Margaret, but when he apologises, he is not apologising for any other reason than he is in charge now and acknowledging that the U.K. Governments & the Australian Governments were prepared to send or receive children into slavery.
He isn't apologising on his own behalf but on behalf of all the adults of all parties that where prepared to turn a blind eye to dealing with unfortunate children in this way.

1967 when they finally stopped this trade in cheap labour I was only 15, but there where supposedly Government's of various parties that allowed children of my age to be abused in this manner, he is apologising for everyone of our population that forced children out of this country at the same time as encouraging immigrants here with a tantalising, 'Land of Milk & Honey', wrong for the Children and wrong for those that suffered the prejudice of the 50's & 60's.

Margaret Pilkington 19-11-2009 18:12
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Less.......I still think it is wrong......he had no part in the policy decisions which led to such events, and as such, cannot really be held accountable.
No more than Kevin Rudd, the Australian Prime Minister can be held accountable...these apologies mean absolutely nothing.

If I were one of these unfortunate people who had been treated in such a manner, I would be offended by these 'sham' apologies.
But that is just my own opinion.

I was 20 when the last of these children were sent overseas(some to Australia, some to Canada)...I knew nothing about their plight, so can I be held responsible just because I was one of the population...even though I was ignorant of the events?

I think that if you know about a situation and allow it to happen then you are culpable.

cashman 19-11-2009 18:40
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
i also knew nothing of this when young meself, n i don't think we are therefore held responsible, but what yer saying to my mind margaret is those who are culpable n are now dead , so ferget it, that i think is wrong,to me its apologising fer the wrongs of predessors, whilst it cannot be undone or rectified,i can only assume those wronged by it, can gain a degree of comfort by the "Admission" it happened, that in my view is better than nowt fer those folk.

West Ender 19-11-2009 18:48
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
They call it collective responsibility, don't they? I suppose an apology from present governments might somehow substitute one from the governments of the day. At least it highlights the horrendous abuse. I bought a book about this subject, about 10 years ago, and I had heard something about it, vaguely, in a TV drama (The Leaving of Liverpool) but the book made harrowing reading.

There has been the same sort of apology from Australia to the Aborigine children who were snatched away from their families to be "educated as white". I don't suppose an apology goes far when, inside, you're still that 2 year old who they pulled out of your mother's arms. Still, it's better than nothing at all.

Gordon Brown can't really apologise, not for himself as he wasn't born when all this started, but it's a gesture. What more can one say?

Eric 19-11-2009 19:20
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
While he is at this apology bs, why not apologise to the kids who were sent to Canada at two bucks a head to work as virtual slaves on farms and as house servants ... there was a show on this on CBC Radio a couple of days ago ... there are still some of them alive ... one ninety-three year old interviewed still has bitter memories about what happened.

Eric 19-11-2009 19:27
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
I do think this apology kick is being a little overdone .... in the past little while, our govt. has apologised to the Japanese who were interned in the war, First Nations People, First Nations kids who were abused in Residential Schools (some large payouts on this one). etc. etc.

Margaret Pilkington 19-11-2009 20:40
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
All through history bad things happened to people who didn't deserve it.......apologising achieves no useful purpose...it digs up past events which are painful for those who experienced them.....and brings the event back to the forefront of the memory.

The past is past and we should stop looking back......humanity never seems to learn from past events......and while we deplore the things that these children were subject to, we cannot say that similar things will not happen in the future......and until we can, apologies are just weasel words.

katex 19-11-2009 21:01
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Again ... it is not the apology that matters to these people .. just through this apology it is an admission that it did happen and they can be believed now. That must be a great relief to them now.

cashman 19-11-2009 21:10
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by katex (Post 763945)
Again ... it is not the apology that matters to these people .. just through this apology it is an admission that it did happen and they can be believed now. That must be a great relief to them now.
ya got it bang on Kate.;)

Eric 19-11-2009 21:28
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by katex (Post 763945)
Again ... it is not the apology that matters to these people .. just through this apology it is an admission that it did happen and they can be believed now. That must be a great relief to them now.
I dunno ... I think that everyone is jumping on the "closure" bandwagon ... the new bs buzzword, "closure" ... how this migrated from literary criticism to ... well, just about everywhere, I don't know. (Even heard some dumb trailer park trash bitch from Texas saying that now she has witnessed the execution of someone who offed a family member, she has achieved "closure".):eek: Maybe I'm being too suspicious, but often getting an apology is only the first step to getting a cash settlement. A big stack of cash is the kind of "great relief" many people are looking for.

I would like to think that you are right, but .....

cashman 19-11-2009 21:30
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric (Post 763960)
I dunno ... I think that everyone is jumping on the "closure" bandwagon ... the new bs buzzword, "closure" ... how this migrated from literary criticism to ... well, just about everywhere, I don't know. (Even heard some dumb trailer park trash bitch from Texas saying that now she has witnessed the execution of someone who offed a family member, she has achieved "closure".):eek: Maybe I'm being too suspicious, but often getting an apology is only the first step to getting a cash settlement. A big stack of cash is the kind of "great relief" many people are looking for.

I would like to think that you are right, but .....
n i though i was a cynical sod.:D

Eric 19-11-2009 21:32
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 763964)
n i though i was a cynical sod.:D
You are ... you just aren't the only one;):D

Eric 19-11-2009 21:45
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
I wonder if the Japanese have apologized for what they did in British military hospitals when they captured them: raping and killing the nurses, and bayonetting the wounded on the operating tables. Maybe we should think about things like this when we take our next mouthful of Sushi ...

By the way, I don't see this as a "wander" ... if apologies are in order, then they should be the order of the day.

cashman 19-11-2009 22:05
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric (Post 763974)
I wonder if the Japanese have apologized for what they did in British military hospitals when they captured them: raping and killing the nurses, and bayonetting the wounded on the operating tables. Maybe we should think about things like this when we take our next mouthful of Sushi ...

By the way, I don't see this as a "wander" ... if apologies are in order, then they should be the order of the day.
well if it aint a wander how about the yanks fer Hiroshima, n Nagasaki. the "Enola" may have bin Gay but the japs wern't so happy.:rolleyes:

Eric 19-11-2009 22:19
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 763977)
well if it aint a wander how about the yanks fer Hiroshima, n Nagasaki. the "Enola" may have bin Gay but the japs wern't so happy.:rolleyes:
Unfortunately, the Americans practice "self exclusion" ... that's why they ignore all rulings of the International Court. Unless, of course, they apply to others. We could take it to the extreme that most things that have happened in history probably require an apology. Maybe all world leaders should get together (not the Yanks of course) and yell out at the top of their lungs, in the language of their choice: "Alright already, we are sorry ... now let's go home and do a lot more shlt that we can get together and apologise for next year." Maybe rather than empty protestations, govts. could operate in such a way that they don't have anything to apologise for. Maybe ... but I aint holding my breath.

Mancie 19-11-2009 22:26
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric (Post 763974)
I wonder if the Japanese have apologized for what they did in British military hospitals when they captured them: raping and killing the nurses, and bayonetting the wounded on the operating tables.
If you think that's bad what about the Chinese? ..cost me £14 last night for a home delivery and I did'nt get any free prawn crackers! :(

cashman 19-11-2009 22:32
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mancie (Post 763983)
If you think that's bad what about the Chinese? ..cost me £14 last night for a home delivery and I did'nt get any free prawn crackers! :(
bloody hell mancie, had a good nosh up in China Town Tues night £8-90 a head, yer scranning at wrong places.:D

Eric 19-11-2009 22:36
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mancie (Post 763983)
If you think that's bad what about the Chinese? ..cost me £14 last night for a home delivery and I did'nt get any free prawn crackers! :(
Don't you know that the Chinese are trying to destroy world economies by creating a "cuisine" that is overpriced and that satisfies hunger for only about ten or twenty minutes.:rolleyes: Now that's a conspiracy theory for you.:eek:;) By the way, are the fortune cookies free?

Maybe all this "apology" horse manure is becoming the new political correctness. In my humble opinion, an apology is a cop out. Operating in such a way that apologies are not necessary is much more difficult.

By the way, 14 quid is way overpriced.

Mancie 19-11-2009 22:45
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 763985)
bloody hell mancie, had a good nosh up in China Town Tues night £8-90 a head, yer scranning at wrong places.:D
Sweet n sour chicken balls, Prawn curry ,one portion fried rice and portion of prawns on toast..was for me and the missus, £14.50..that's cheap round here.
no fortune cookies Eric but you usaually get free prawn crackers.. no apology whatsoever.

Eric 19-11-2009 22:57
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mancie (Post 763991)
Sweet n sour chicken balls, Prawn curry ,one portion fried rice and portion of prawns on toast..was for me and the missus, £14.50..that's cheap round here.
no fortune cookies Eric but you usaually get free prawn crackers.. no apology whatsoever.
No prawn crackers here ... but I figure I could have got what you had for about half the price. Come to think of it, I might just order take out. I apologise for not sharing;):D

Margaret Pilkington 20-11-2009 06:35
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by katex (Post 763945)
Again ... it is not the apology that matters to these people .. just through this apology it is an admission that it did happen and they can be believed now. That must be a great relief to them now.
Kate, I understand that,(I am not as thick as I may sometimes appear) but if the apology does not matter, then why issue it?
It devalues any apology, because it is not being used for the right reason.

There must be other ways to allow these people to be recognised as having been badly wronged by governments of the day.

I think that it brings to the forefront of these wronged individuals, the memories of times that were traumatic....and over time they must have dealt with the trauma in their own way.....it just refreshes the hurt, and that cannot be good.

I will post no more on this subject, as I feel that I have stated my views and opinions as clearly as is possible.(for me that is)

cashman 20-11-2009 08:28
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
what reason is it being issued for then?:confused:

Benipete 20-11-2009 09:23
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 764040)
what reason is it being issued for then?:confused:
Good question,It would be interesting to know how many children were"farmed out"to families in this country.:mad::confused:

MargaretR 20-11-2009 09:36
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 764040)
what reason is it being issued for then?:confused:
After exposure of extreme corruption, it is a public relations excercise in humility:(

Wynonie Harris 20-11-2009 10:17
Re: Brown is planning to apologies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 764050)
After exposure of extreme corruption, it is a public relations excercise in humility:(
Nail...head...hit. ;)


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