Animal Rights Protestors = Terrorists
 

I see the government has just announced an initiative to deal with these terrorist scumgags who have done so much damage over the last few years. Unfortunatly, it's to late and far to little. We should treat this vermin just as we should deal with the likes of Al Quida & how we used to deal with the IRA....if we knew something was or is imminent, let them get on with it then wipe them out. Take no prisoners. No more of this cat-loving, lesbo, vegan nonsense. While we're at it, let's remove the 'R' from the RSPCA...what about replacing the N in the NSPCC instead?

Re: Animal Rights Protestors = Terrorists
 

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Re: Animal Rights Protestors = Terrorists
 

I know these people think that they are fighting a just cause, and maybe they are, but so do many terrorist organistaions around the world. The A.L.F are no different to any terrorist group and as such should be treated no differently.

As for myself I am split between the advancement of medicine and the need for protection of poor 'dumb' creatures who cant speak out for themselves.

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I have to agree in principle with Tealeaf on this. I read a letter in a magazine this week telling of mink which were released by these so-called animal rights protesters in the St.Albans area. I quote from the letter:
"The kill was 330 two-week old ducklings out of 650. What is more upsetting is the disappearance of all the water voles, moorhens and wild duck broods."
These people call themselves animal lovers, do they? All I can say is it's a good job they aren't animal haters.

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There is an awful lot of unecessary experimentation on animals and I think that there should be more rigid controls on what is or is not acceptable. Particularly when it comes to testing cosmetics. However I agree with the sentiments previously expressed, terrorism is terrorism, irrespective of whether it is committed by some half witted, religion crazed Arab, or members of our own community. The ALF has brought some appalling excesses to light, though that hardly excuses their behaviour over the last few years.

Extremism is a bad thing no matter what philosophical, moral or religious clothes it chooses to garb itself in.

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Why not do the testing on the dregs of society, like people in prison on death row in America. pay back time

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Why not those in our own institutions.............

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Bloody hell Janet! Didn't the Nazis do that during (and before) WWII! That is opening up a whole new debate! Interestingly enough though the unethical and totally dispicable Nazi experiments opened up a lot of new advancements so we have been told since.

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And it is the Nazi's we have to thank for encouraging Werner von Braun to make the V2 Rocket, which caused so much damage in this country during the war, but also led to us being able to walk on the moon.

Similarly, would we try to discourage Marie Curie if we met her today? Since it was her pioneering and utterly selfless work that led, ultimately, to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But then again, how many lives have been saved thanks to the medical use of X-rays?

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This is a complex and emotive issue we have touched upon. Here is an excerpt from "The Ecologist" :

Let us suppose that animals do have rights; what follows? Surely, the very least that follows is that it is wrong to kill them, to eat them, to keep them as pets, to make them suffer in any way that is not to their individual benefit – and wrong in just the way that it is wrong to do any of this to a human being. That is what the activists say they believe. But do they really believe it? Are they prepared to say that my attempts to rid my barn of rats are tantamount to mass murder? That people who keep cats are complicitous in serial killing? That my keeping a horse in his stable is a case of false imprisonment? That my digging the garden involves the negligent slaughter of innocent worms, beetles and moles? Which activities involving animals would be permitted, and on what grounds?

Full article here: http://www.theecologist.org/archive_...32&category=88

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My way of thinking is people on death row are going to die anyway, soooo they might serve a useful purpose. Doug, they dont have the death penalty in this country unless it's still in force for treason.Ceejache, dont get me wrong i do not support the Nazi party in any way.

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Talking about that, can anyone recommend a good air rifle, accurate to about 15 yards? I'm plagued with my neighbours ferral cats at the moment - they're taking out 2 or 3 birdies a day - so I want something which is powerul, accurate & I can reload within 2/3 seconds, so I can get a second shot in immeadiatly after the first.

Re: Animal Rights Protestors = Terrorists
 

Try the shop a couple of doors up from The Hope and Anchor on Whalley Road

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It is I think Janet. However, the like of those who kill children and old ladies and live at our expense with a play station, sky TV and a small wage each week for there little comforts.......I not suggesting we kill them, I am suggesting they earn there keep.

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Cheers, Yerself...I'll pop round on tuesday

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It was'nt me Doug, honest: but I'll buy you a pint tomorrow night (just bring me a box of .22ammo, OK)

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Re: Animal Rights Protestors = Terrorists
 

I agree with most of the sentiments expressed in this post except the U.S.A's "death row." Maybe I am wrong but I thought that this period of time was a "last chance" opportunity to appeal to the U.S. Government for clemency?

Personally, I feel that there should be 2 classes of 1st degree murder. Those that have been found guilty by a jury..... and I believe that there should be a time lapse for them like "death row" (how many times have we heard of new evidence coming through after the court case?) and those that were caught "red handed" and have no defence to offer. Now THOSE I would happily allow to be put forward for testing.........
As for the ALF, They do far more damage to animal rights than ALL the experimental research establishments put together! The only objection I have to fox hunting is that it is almost exclusively the "sport" of Hoo-Ray Henries and THAT I feel is why many people spotlight this activity, but if not for them, the farmer would just blow the foxes to bits with a 12 bore shotgun instead.
Nothing is said about the ferreter who walks the fields in the early mornings putting a ferret down a rabbit hole to terrorise and maim those unfortunate rabbits that are too slow to exit their holes into the waiting nets and clubs of humans. But when all said and done, these animals are a blight to the farmer and have to be culled one way or another.

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I totally agree that whatever the cause, these terrorists should be stopped. I condider myself to be an animal lover, and I do think that some cosmetics etc should not be tested on animals. There are a lot of supposedly untested beauty products on the market, I have used them and can vouch that they are no different to the tested ones. Medical science continues to progress due to both animal testing and human volunteers (drug trials etc) Surely the process of evolution determines which species has supremecy. In this day and age if we were to release all our animals they would be run over by traffic, breed uncontrollably and become pests..:cool:

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I have a cat problem as well and shall pay a visit to that shop also, it's my last hope.

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I can understand the overall argument regarding animal experimentation and drug testing. I have seen photos of some pretty nasty things. Implants on various animals, live surgery, i.e whilst animal is conscious, artificial probes inserted to stimulate involuntary movement etc To me these things are on the whole performed solely for experimentation and curiosity. However where animals are well looked after and do not suffer pain, torture and general abuse then I agree that some testing has to be done. In the case of drugs that may cure disease and save millions of lives I think there is no other option. The only alternative is for volunteers to test the beta form these drugs, considering the overall argument that animals are equal to humans im sure that there are many activists who would be willing to maybe sacrifice there own life and volunteer their services. Also I hope these people don't ever get ill because they couldnt possibly accept any drugs from there doctor as this would be un ethical..........wonder if they wear leather shoes or boots?

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Janet - Sorry if it seemed that way, I would never do that in a million years!

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Talking about that, can anyone recommend a good air rifle, accurate to about 15 yards? I'm plagued with my neighbours ferral cats at the moment - they're taking out 2 or 3 birdies a day - so I want something which is powerul, accurate & I can reload within 2/3 seconds, so I can get a second shot in immeadiatly after the first.

Try the natural way T. a dog works wonders and the family get enjoyment out of it too

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Oh Dear. Looks like Dougs been giving someone a ruthless savaging....probably all to no avail, anyway. It don't matter what new medicines may be developed (tested on animals, convicts or anyone else), as of yesterdays High Court ruling, clinical decision making has now passed from the doctor to the judge &the lawyer....another opportunity for the latter to fleece the taxpayer of billions in legal aid. (actually, if there are more tests to be done, lets do it on the laywers. I, for one, would have no hesitation in getting the Black & Decker going on some barristers thick skull followed up by a permanent meccano & test tube attachment)

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No Tea, Doug’s just been a selfish arrogant immature idiot.

Re: Animal Rights Protestors = Terrorists
 

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Thanks for that Tealeaf.

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Just been listening to an interesting news item on Radio Five Live (an excellent station if I can say so). It concerned a village of about 300/400 people in Staffordshire and its residents, but in particular a certain resident who bred guinea pigs and then sold them to animal test centres. The ALF and other such organisations got hold of this and have since been terorising other residents in the village in a bid to ostracize him and his family from the local community. They have done this by threatening to put his neighbours windows through, threatened the local pub to bar him otherwise they would burn the place down including their cars and those of the landlords family, abusive phone calls to neighbours etc.etc. Basically they have started threatening the neighbours and associates of this man in a bid to get to him - and apparently this isnt the only case. The police spokesman said that it was very hard to stop this happening - I would have thought catching those responsible and giving them a good kicking would be a start.....;-) Whatever the reasoning there is no excuse for this sort of action - like has been said before, the ALF and others are not gaining any support from the general public by following this dire course of extreme 'witchhuntery'.

I consider myself an animal lover - but Morissey once said that how can we call ourselves a nation of animal lovers when about 95% of the population eat animal flesh? It does make quite a mockery of the term 'animal lover'. Your thoughts?

Re: Animal Rights Protestors = Terrorists
 

Okay, agreed on no animal testing for cosmetics.

Animal testing for drugs is still essential, although using long term prisoners banged up for nasty crimes would be a really good idea. Incidentally, there is still the death penalty for two offences: High Treason, and Arson in Her Majesty's Dockyards!

As to foxhunting, it isn't just Hooray Henries, that is a misapprehension. Hunts have all sorts of members, I personally know not just farmers, but a coalman and two dustmen in Sussex who go out with the Chiddingfold & Leconbury Hunt.

Nice one, the Chidding & Lec a couple of years ago were out cubbing (essential to keep the fox population down) with a group of hunt sabs in attendance. Once of the female HSs decided she would save this dear little fox cub from the huntsman's attentions. It bit her to the bone, I seem to remembe she had 20 stitches!

It's also very difficult to kill a fox by shooting - what usually happens is that they are injured, develop septicaemia and die in great pain some weeks later.

Let's put ferrets up the trousers of the Animal Liberationists and see how soon they change their tune!

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That's a frightening story Ceejache. These kinds of groups are extremists and any kind of extremism is scary. The Pro-lifers have been known to target clinics and individual doctors under the misguided belief that it will assist their cause, looks like the ALF are no different. I would not give support to a group who terrorizes anybody no matter which cause they are fighting for. I am an animal lover but would never value an animal's life over that of a human being.:)

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You need to be careful what you're saying lettie......someone could be targeting you right now.......:eek:

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I think we may be missing the point here.

A great many of the people who subscribe to things like ALF are not that much in love with animals.
What is the point for them is that they are opposing something. What they are opposing is for them a little bit nebulous, but animal rights gives them a focus.

What we have here is disaffected. disassociated, people who cannot form links with their own kind, therefore, they form links with a group which cannot repudiate them.

In short, psychos, who grab onto a group which cannot say "Go away, we do not need you or your kine" because they cannot speak. Animals cannot say :Go away, we do not need you or your sort to speak for us.

Ergo, they feel free to speak for an entire set of species that they know virtually nothing about.

As for the pro-lifers, those who oppose terminations (not abortions, that is the medical/ clinical word for any pregnancy which is terminated naturally or not) they do seem to me to have preponderance of born-again Christian men - not likely to get pregant are they!

I am not pro termination on demand as a form of birth control. Talk to me about it. You have to have been there to know about it.

The entire point, I think, is that you have had to be there - terminal illness, potentially life-saving drug being tested (and believe me, at that stage, you will be the one to test it), or wherever it takes to be on the receiving end.

I am an animal lover. I am also a human person lover. Are the two mutually exclusive?
I don't think so.

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Most people who oppose vivisection do so on moral grounds because they object to cruelty. But the case against animal experiments is strongly reinforced by scientific arguments. This is because people and animals are different in the way their bodies work and in their response to drugs and disease.
*******If animal experiments were a valid method of research, people would go to a veterinarian rather than a doctor when they felt ill! In fact, vivisection is an unscientific approach to medicine because of the constant risk of misleading results.

cortisone produces birth defects in mice but not people, whilst thalidomide works the other way around;
morphine calms people but excites cats, goats and horses;
penicillin is highly poisonous to guinea pigs and hamsters;
insulin causes birth defects in animals but not in people;
the antibiotic chloramphenicol produces the blood disease aplastic anaemia in some human patients but it saves animals;
in dogs, the muscle-relaxing drug tubocurarine causes a severe fall in blood pressure but is comparatively safe for people
and doses of aspirin used in human therapeutics are poisonous to cats.

I could go on all day about this. but if you want to be more familiar this side of the argument please check out the (Campaign Against Fraudulent Medical Resarch )
CAFMR
I would be interested to know if it changes anybodys mind about these animal rights nutters

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Doesn't change my mind at all. I dont care what reasons lie behind the actions of these morons - there is no excuse for terrorism.

People have different views on the moral and scientific view concerning this subject - its just the way these idiots go about their crusade that is the problem.

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I don't doubt that Expat is correct when he says that not all animal testing brings consistent results when applied to humans. However, sometimes the opposite is true also. I would like to give one example which I only learned last night watching '60 minutes' on television. A Dr. in Canada was very upset watching young babies die because they could not find necessary hearts of the right size and blood type to transplant in order to save their lives. She then remembered that, when testing transplants on VERY YOUNG mice early in her career, that the transplanting of hearts with a different blood type seemed to work because the imune system of the mice was not yet mature and so did not identify the new heart as foreign tissue. She had a patient a few months old who was going to die anyway, so she transplanted a heart of the correct size but a different blood type. The heart was not rejected and that child is now seven years old and doing very well. More babies under one year old are now having heart transplants which do not match as far as blood type is concerned and the surgeries have so far been successful. It has also been discovered since, that these children can now accept blood transfusions of differing types of blood to their own. I too believe that animals should not be made to suffer needlessly but I do think that medical testing on animals can be a good indicator and provide valuable information. They've been doing it for a very long time. I'm sure that if it was valueless they would have given it up by now.

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Just because that worked for mice doesn't mean it would automatically work for humans. She was still taking a chance and in that particular case it worked. Looking at what Expat said, and I've argued that point myself many times, a lot of the drugs we use today would never have been permitted if they had been tested on animals first because of the adverse reactions in animals which do not occur in humans. Penicillin is a classic example. If animal testing had been in force when it was discovered it would have been tested on guinea pigs and instantly banned. I'm against animal testing for the simple reason that it doesn't work. There's no point to it. Humans are a different species. Yes, I am all for the need to find drugs etc to cure diseases but just because it works on a mouse/hamster/dog/cat/pig or rhinocerous(only joking) doesn't mean it is going to work for humans and equally just because something kills a rabbit doesn't make it dangerous to humans.

As for the ALF and their terrorist activities. They cause more suffering than they claim they are trying to prevent. There is no excuse for such behaviour and they should be treated in exactly the same way as other terrorists. I don't think they know very much about animals or they would realise that different species of animals kill and eat other species of animals. It's called nature. Owl eats mouse. Are they going to liberate mice etc from owls? Then owls suffer from starvation? It is natural for many animals to be carnivorous. Why is it wrong for humans if it's natural for other creatures?

So basically I'm against animal testing, pro animal eating and anti ALF.

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It is a fact that different species react differently to various drugs. However, we have had pig hearts transplanted into humans. They work. Some species are closer than others. No-one does animal testing for fun - if it didn't work it wouldn't be used. Yes, there are bog-ups, but fewer than you might think.

As for the ALF - if it wasn't animals, it would more than likely be something else. There are plenty of psychopaths out there looking for a peg to pin their hatred on.

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I had already conceded Willow, that these things do not always work. The doctor in Canada was not really taking a chance, the baby only had days to live and it was a last ditch effort to save the baby's life. It worked. It has also worked many times since according to the programme. So that was one mark "for" animal testing. I have no doubt, as I said earlier, that there are plenty of "against" marks also.

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That is exactly my point of view!! There are no excuses for the terrorism created by these sick people.! :mad: