Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

While the towns of Northern England slowly slide into dereliction and jobs disappear down the deserted mine shafts,suitcases full of our money continue to fly past us, slowing down only as they cross the border and settle in the Scottish Parliament.
The English currently subsidise Scotland to the tune of 4.5 billion pounds(that's 4,500,000,000 of those coins in your pocket or purse,imagine how heavy those suitcases must be).Source-Telegraph,1/02/10.That means every person in Scotland gets over £1500 of every English persons tax-no wonder there isn't much left for us!
Free prescriptions, free OAP care,free university tuition(I read a while ago that any student from the EEC would get it if selected,except English students,can anyone confirm that?)half the working population employed in the public sector etc.etc.
The money is shared out according to the Barnett Formula(set in 1978). He was Treasury Chief Secretary and has said for several years it is now unfair.Quote-'I didn't create this formula to give Scotland an advantage over the rest of the country'.So why did he create it?
So do the Scots REALLY want Independance? They have given us some of our best engineers and scientists and are a lovely,friendly people but most of all they are 'canny' about money. Would you want to loose all that money?
By the way forget the argument about 'Scottish oil'.It's UK oil and even if they got the whole of the revenues it wouldn't cover the subsidy.
Can we do a poll on which of us think Scotland should be given Independance IMMEDIATLY?Perhaps now we haven't got a Scottish Chancellor/Prime Minister and not quite as many Scottish ministers someone might listen.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

ya can start a poll on it Gordon if ya want.;)

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

This could be interesting. Will wait and see how it develops before I chip in my tuppence worth.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Sorry, cashman, I don't know how to do that(still in learning mode).But it would be interesting if someone else did.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

I don't think they really do, most of the Scots understand the benefits of being part of the union, it's only those who get their version of history from that famous Scotsman, Mel MacGibson bashing the wicked English, oh hang on a minute ..... No he's an American aye "Patriot" & all that bashing the wicked English. :D

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

If Scotland has its own parliment why are there Scottish MP's in ours, are English MP's allowed to sit in this Scottish parliment.
If they want there own parliment then they should fund it from Scottish taxes and be dammed quick about it. Same wit leeks as well
Retlaw.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Surely the question should be "Do the English want independence from those parasitic, shirt-wearing, whinging, drunken layabouts north of the border?"

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Kixck the Bstds out - they have their own parliament, so everything else should be theirs - no more subsidies from England, Passports required, ability to speak English - and no more Porridge Gobblers as Members of the English Parliament - look what Blair and Brown have done to us - Never looked into Capt Darling's origins - but can you imagine his roots in Ossy?

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

I think you should perhaps ask a true Scot what he wants:-

YouTube - Braveheart - FREEDOM scene

(His answer is about 8 minutes 20 sec into this clip).

:)

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

While we're at it, it would be a good idea to get rid of Wales, Yorkshire and Tyneside - all a miserable, useless bunch of animal abusers, child torturers and general imbeciles.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

'Freedom'? How about Fairness? I would actually vote against Scottish Independence, we are one nation and need to stick together in this big wicked world.Also during governments love affair with the 'city' Scottish industries were allowed to whither away just like those of the north of England.Queen Mary 2 built in France! Queen Victoria in Italy! Scotland had the biggest and best shipyards in the world once.All gone.
But fairness? We continue to fund Alex Salmonds massive spending sprees and he continues to frighten us into it. Come the crunch I doubt even he would want to cut totally free, he'd want Independence WITH subsidies!

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Might regret this but;

Retlaw they have devolved powers only certain powers are held by Westminster. The MP's are at Westminster are there to vote on the sections that they have no devolved powers over. The argument about Scots MPs voting on English matters shouldnt do but while they can they will. Before the devolution of powers to Scotland Northern Ireland and Wales English MP's could band together to squash anything that these countries wanted. Now the shoe is on the other foot it suddenly unpleasent. We up here can raise tax if required by 3 pence in the pound which might cover some of the shortfall.

Tealeaf the vote over independence for Scotland would also require one in the rest of the UK to get rid of them.

Barrie you could split the UK by kicking out Scotland but what about Wales and Northern Ireland? We also do not have the same problems with minorities as England has as they are not allowed to "getto" the same way as down there.

Gordon if Scotland left the UK the UK waters would not include the majority of the oil fields. That makes the UK oil slightly invalid. You can have the nukes as well.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

SPUGGIE J. My point was the TOTAL revenues of the oil fields do NOT cover the subsidy.Nowhere near.If as you suggest not all but some of them could be claimed by Scotland the Scots would be in an even worse position.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

The thing is a lot of them still think that there is a lot of money coming in. They have habit at looking at how Norway benefited from oil. The biggest problem is that there is a large wad of bodies on benefits up here a larger proportion per 1000 then in England. Hollyrood could raise taxes up here for Scottish services but wont. The best way of describing it at the moment is a case of a Mexican stand off with Russian roulette thrown in. Me I am happy as it stands but can see both sides of the argument. And yes the Scots would be worse off.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

dont believe the gutter press spin and alex salmond he is an ass.most people i know want to keep the union and are proud to be part of the union.both countries most successful eras have been when there has been a union both countries would be weaker without the union..

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

the scottish parliament is also a waste of scotlands resources all from the start when hiring a spanish architect to design the monstrosity.it would cost billions just to work out who would get passports,this is why it is a non starter and the scottish goverment should stop spending money on this fantasy.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Ok being a nice chap (sometimes) I have added a poll to this thread.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

England would manage quite comfortably without Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland but the reverse is certainly not true.

I would quite happily see the UK split into its constituent countries and Ireland reunified but I suspect that within a very short space of time even the staunchest of patriots would be questioning the move.

Wales and Scotland have already had referendums on full independence and the public felt so strongly about it that hardly anyone bothered to vote.

There'll always be an England.....

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Cheers neil, have now voted,but aint saying which way, ya will have to guess,:D:D

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

MacGibson an American, err well no he's actually an Australian;)

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independence?
 

:eek::eek::eek::eek: I've seen the pole cashy, no hiding place mate:D

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

The thing that annoys me about all this devaluation malarkey is that things that are free in Scotland such as Nursing homes for the elderly, Student Fees, Prescription charges, free hospital parking, which are subsidised by the Westminster Government, yet we in England aren't afforded the same privileges:eek:

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Devaluation?

Are you sure you're in the correct thread? Shouldn't you be in a different thread knocking the Co-alition Government for all their economic Blunderings?

I thought this thread was about devolution?

Typical Jaysay thread wandering again!
:D

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independence?
 

I really will have to watch just what my spell check comes up with before hitting the post button, but then Less and co would only get bored and sod of the the Railway early:D

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

To all those who have voted -
....how many of them did you ask?

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Neil,thanks for the poll,I must try to find out how to do that. Can I make a suggestion? Is it possible to add to it 'Do the English really want independance?'. Sadly, I think the response may be equally definate.
MargaretR,this is the English saying what they think the Scots want. The opinion so far is that all agree with the majority of Scots-NO.So clearly they think the cries for Idependance(and Freedom?) are a con to squeeze as much as possible from a succession of faint-hearted London governments. Call Alex Salmonds bluff-insist on a referendum and watch him lose!

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

So they have a bigger slice of the pie.
Instead of saying their slice should be smaller, why not say our slice should equal theirs.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

MargaretR-you ask 'Why not say our slice should equal theirs'? It's part of OUR slice they're eating. Also the country is broke,bust, bankrupt.The pie has just got an awfully lot smaller!We're all going to have to have a smaller slice, that's why it's important it's shared fairly

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Well, for what it is worth, here's my non-otiose two pennorth: cut the apron strings and let the celtic whingers shift for themselves.

That brief enough for you margaret?

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

'Who ate all the pies?' :D - the bankers - so don't blame the scots (except scottish bankers).

Bob - that's much better - who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks:)

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Careful with that "old". This dog still has all his own teeth.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

I know Jays, I know. He's a Pom basher :) just pointing out that the films he's made with a historical background ? All seem to have a common theme, now I wonder what that could be ? :D Something to do with the wicked English perchance ?

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

A great deal is made, in arty circles, of the connection between Van Goghs mental state and his surviving works. I wonder what a similar comparison would throw up in the case of Mr Gibson? I am sure that Freud would have a field day.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

I believe Mr Gibson was born in the USA, moved to Australia as a child and then moved back to the USA and as such he holds joint US/Oz citizenship, which probably goes 99% of the way to explaining his state of mind. Both these nationalities have a justifiable inferiority complex to the English and a complete ignorance of their countries history with the mother country, so it is no surprise that Gibson directs and stars in the movie tat that he does.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

I was actually thinking more along the lines of the generally unpleasant ending most of his recent films seem to have; Apocalypto, Braveheart, The Passion. All of them feature extreme torture of the lead character ending in gruesome death.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

You have the advantage of me there, A-B. I have not seen many of his films and of the ones I have seen I have either fallen asleep, switched off or walked out to the pub before the end. I take it I've not missed much?

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

All the parts quoted as being free might not be for much longer. There is a £5 billion black hole in the budget up here. Ok how it is pent and the amount per head beats me I am no mathmatics expert but if yon Barnett Formula was wrong within a few years then those in power should have known but did nothing. So if it is a central government error it cant be laid at the door of Scotland.

As a thought does that mean if Scotland was allowed to go it alone we wont have nukes on our doorstep but up the River Medway someware?

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Perfidious Albion once again:D:D:D Screw the illegitamates

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

I've never been too bad at maths, but when they tell us that there are 60,000,000 plus unregistered others, living on this Island, of which 26% or whatever latest figure suits their mind, people work and pay taxes, I just can never work out how this many billion, or that many billion can be spent, lost, or frittered away.

We must be paying a fortune in hidden taxes, the lot of us are worth a fortune!

:rolleyes:

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

There must be more to this than they are admitting. Maybe if they push that Westminster is "bullying" by reducing money they can use it as "they dont want us so we need to go it alone" as an agenda piece to getting independence.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Now that Scotland has only one tory MP, the ConLibs might well consider it a good tactical move to give Scotland independance, and so remove scottish Labour MPs from Westminster.
This would give them a higher percentage of tories in parliament ie. a bigger majority.

The only way I can see this not happening is by intervention from those whose aim is a 'United States of Europe' (New World Order Bildeburg Group headed by Rothschilds and Rockerfellers)

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

On that basis if they are few in number in Wales and Northern Ireland they could do the same to increase their majority further. It is fraught with danger and The SNP could also claim that they are being (Scotland) by an English party with English interests alone on the agenda. Just because there is not a lot of blue elsewere in the UK does not mean that it should be split but shows the blue brigade need to appeal to all not just the ones that they want.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Having just seen a snippet of the delightful Alex Salmond at work on First Minister's Questions he can now be quoted as saying that Scottish politics now revolves around full independence, but independence without financial responsibility.

That's good of you, Alex. More cake?

Wales is due another referendum in the spring regarding their full independence and it's wound him up so he wants to push for another one in Scotland. With people like that in power I hope they get what they want and Westminster gives them true independence without the monetary crutch of the English.

Let them eat cake.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Ken the majority up here dont want independence. The only way it would happen is if it was forced on us. Alex Salmond is good at playing games even when he knows a draw is the best he will get. I wonder if the maths he is using include a health service and armed forces never mind the benefits system. Scotland would become a 3rd world country for sure if granted independence. Just because people voted the SNP in does not mean it is because they want independence. It was moree to do with them being fed up with the Westminster puppets that were in. As there is no chance of Westminster puppets know he might find at the next election he is in opposition.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

A bit old this one but gives the jist of feeling:

Scottish independence support at record low - Telegraph

And here is the Alex Salmond Proposal and isnt light reading:

Independence | SNP - Scottish National Party

And a curve ball:

From the Scotland Bill to Scottish independence… Slugger O'Toole

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

I think the people of Scotland, much as they may rail against the accursed English, have more sense than the fools in charge. Pauline MacNeill asked Mr Salmond the question and was shot down in patriotic flames by the First Minister.

It was the quip about full independence but still allowing England to subsidise the perks that Scotland receives that got me. I used to quite respect the man for his patriotism but now I realise it's based on getting everything he can from our government whilst biting the hand that feeds him.

The ultimate benefit scrounger, you might say.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

That is the sad thing. He is a brilliant polictitcian but needs to loose the blinkers. He has done well for Scotland but this obsession he has could undo all that he has achieved.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

agree 100% add corrupt to that list;)

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Well its only in keeping with what has gone down in history before Ken, how many of our Commonwealth brethren campaigned long and hard for their independence from Great Britain and when granted it, have been back with the begging bowl ever since, when they found out just what GB had put into their countries for years, and when they were left on their own they couldn't cope

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

We didn't invade and colonise countries for altruistic reasons.
We colonised to exploit their natural resources.
On our leaving it is only to be expected that they seek retribution.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

yeh but in good old U.S.A the indians got sod all, in Aus the abos got less, its only us that are suckers.:rolleyes:

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

MargaretR, oh,COME ON!!Your'e on about the big bad British Empire? When the overall costs/benifits to the UK of its empire were measured the UK actually made a LOSS in financial terms.
Who left them with good government, roads,huge railway systems,who stopped them killing each other in tribal wars,selling each other as slaves?We never did what the Germans did in Namibia-ethnic extermination of the two main tribes(that's where Hitler got his Big idea from).Similarly Belgium and a few other countries.We may have been pompous and arrogant but we left them ALL better than we found them, and it didn't take long for many of them to fall back 200 years as soon as we left.This Political Correctness about the wicked British Empire makes me sick. And they are NOT seeking retribution,they're seeking money, which in many cases their dictators and governments immediatly salt away in their Swiss banks.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independence?
 

That's not the point at all Margaret, these countries fought for their independence for Britain, they wanted free of British rule, then they're forever there with the begging bowl. When the new Government asked what cuts should be made to ease our financial situation, over 80% of people who replied said cut overseas aid. we look well continually subsidising places like India, when they are embarking on their own space programs they're just taking the ****

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Spot on Gordon, if I'd have read your post first I would have had no need to submit mine:rolleyes:

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Thing is though Scotland and England a afew wars over who should own it and be King etc it was never really conquered. It was the ambition of Scots to have colonies like England that lead to its downfall. When the colonial enterprise went badly wrong and failed Scotland was in effect bankrupt. So in they asked to be bailed out by England. We had the same person as Monarch but separate parliaments so part oh the deal was that it was one parliament. Oh the joys of the 1707 Act of Union. Many still say that the Scottish Lords of the time sold their own country for English gold. So in a way not conquered but betrayed and sold like slaves.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

If the Scots hadn't carried on fighting each other while they were fighting the English it would have been more difficult for us to win.
And we were fair! The first king of a United Kingdom WAS a Scotsman-the Scottish king and even he couldn't wait to get down to London
O yes, and we were fair enough to let a load of Scotsmen rule us for 13 years.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

The trouble with you Gordon is your a sadist, I'm try to forget that bunch of jocks who screwed us up for 13 years:D

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Still being fair,jaysay,I must check how many of them are in our current con-dem government.
I had to put the - in con-dem or I might have been told off.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Only 1 blue MP up here.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

The transport systems were built, (usually by slaves or a conquered people who had no choice if they wished to eat), not out of British altruism, but were built to facilitate troop transport and to quickly carry the goodies back to port and back to dear old Blighty.

As for tribal wars, what normally happened was that the British invaders usually aligned themselves with the stronger tribe and assisted them to overcome the lesser tribe, often to the point of extinction, thereby easing the conquest of the area.


I think you will find that Hitler got the idea from the country that actually created the idea of ethnic cleansing and concentration camps, which incidentally happens to be...yeah you guessed it, good old Blighty.

During the Boer War, General Roberts (an underling of Kitchener), fighting in the Transvaal realised he could not win a guerilla war against the Afrikaaners. He used a 'scorched earth' policy, burning every farm and village in his path, keeping all prisoners, including women and children in internment camps. Camps without adequate food, water and medical supplies, thus around 25-30,000 Afrikaaners died in them. The first concentration camps.

Tell that to the Aborigine, the Afrikaaners, the Irish, the American Indian etc..etc..

There's a really great scene in the David Niven film 'A Matter of Life and Death', when he's put on trial and they bring in people of the world to stand as his jury, even back in the forties when this film was made, the Brits realised how they had stripped the assets of the empire and treated the conquered appalingly.

No argument there my friend, all I'll say is look back one year in British politics, look how many of those illustrious parliamentarians in government were quietly salting away the blood, sweat and tears of the ordinary man in the street.

One last thing, I don't believe the sins of the fathers should be paid for, or apologised by, the current generation, history is history.

Sorry for the thread wander

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

In response to "Guinness" Yep, the English do have a very chequered past but then again so do many other European Nations, Belgian Congo, Dutch East Indies, Spanish conquest of South America, French & Germans in Africa the list goes on & back into the 15/1600's up to present day.

"Slave Labour" would've been used as that was the easiest option(not only by us), instead of carting Navvies & Artisans all over the globe they used what was available & despite what you maintain I don't believe all were treated with disrespect & an iron rod of discipline.

Your points are valid but at the time of conquest & Empire that was the way of the world. We apparently live now in an "enlightened society" so how can you justify the continuance in certain areas of the world today this behaviour continuing ? Not by us but those who argued & fought for their independence from the likes of us & the other great Nations ?

What we left behind in most cases was a functioning & organized society which in some lands have gone to the wall, so what does that tell you about the bogeymen & who they are ? If we are no longer there how may we be held accountable ? I see by your Avatar & site name you display symbols that represent Ireland, is this in part the reason for your view on the matter ?

British Troops have to all intents & purposes been drawn away from Ireland & everything that their presence entailed, yet as recently as last week we saw a return to the dark days of the 70's-90's, This one you can't blame on us, so who are the bad guys ?

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Guinness,however you measure it we were the most benign colonists of that age or any earlier one.Of course we put in the systems for our benefit but they didn't have them before and they had when we left!
We DIDN'T use slave labour-we were the first nation to abolish it in 1834.They weren't well paid by modern standards but they WERE paid and a lot of them are worse paid now,after 'freedom'.
Of course we sided with the stronger tribes,we weren't idiots, we were there to win.And we NEVER practised ethnic extermination(possibly because it didn't make good economic sense?)
In 1904 the general over the German army in Namibia instructed his army'Any Herero found within these German borders will be shot.No prisoners will be taken.That is my decision'.This was official government policy and it included women and children.Those they couldn't shoot they drove into the Kalahari desert to die,having first poisoned the few wells there were.About 22,000 died out there.His aim was to clear the land for the German people.Ring a bell?Any they missed killing were put concentration cams and WORKED and starved to death.Oh yes, and they had a German geneticist experimenting on them to prove Aryan supremacy-a lot of their skulls were still in Germany till quite recently.Ring another bell?
We established the concentration camps in the Boer War to contain them,not to eliminate them.Yes,they were badly and cruelly run and many died but at least there was a massive outcry from the British at home and things were changed.
The Africaaners-we let them run the country,the Irish were given independance(after a slight argument) and the treatment of the American Indians was carried out by an American government long after we had gone.The aborigines-I'll have to think about that,but we didn't exterminate them.
As for the David Niven film-made by American studios who are still spouting anti-British drivel-see the Mel Gibson films.According to their films it was 'our American boys' who bombed the Ruhr ??And John Wayne won the war,we didn't have anything to do with it.

Many things we did were wrong by modern standards but NOT by the standards of the day. As empires go we didn't do too badly and no PC crawling should be allowed to give the lie to that.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

DaveinGermany, I've just spent ages one finger typing that lot and find you beat me to it on almost every point.Sorry about that,I'll rest my finger for a bit.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

You got me wrong guys, I was simply pointing out the errors in historical fact that Gordon had posted.

Like I said..history is history, the fact that I'm Irish (and proud of it) does not mean I bear a grudge, why would I, England has done nothing to me, it provides me with a job, a wife (hmmm...questionable), and a good quality of life.

Yes of course other colonising countries used the same methods, I totally agree. You only have to read up on what Pizarro and Cortez did.

And yes, William Wilberforce was a major player in aboloshing slavery, that doesn't preclude the fact that slavery was supported and encouraged by the British Empire for a number of years.

Regarding the Afrikaan concentration camps, again I was pointing out an inaccuracy about the British Empire 'NEVER' participating in ethnic cleansing. I agree with Gordon that they cleaned up their act when the British public found out, my point is they did it first! I agree they were set up to contain the Boers, but that does not excuse the fact that women and children were incarcerated and forgotten about until they died. Ask any German (and I'm sure Dave has) how they feel about concentration camps and I'm sure they would be as disgusted now as the British public were then. All I'm clumsily trying to say is that the British Empire, although necessary for the age, was not such a wonderful thing, and should not be looked at through rose tinted spectacles.

I dont dispute Namibia or the atrocities, or the 'no prisoners' by the german General, but then again T.E.Lawrence in his book Seven Pillars of Wisdom relates of an event when he did exactly the same thing. As for the inhuman experiments carried out there, who can say what would have happened in those Boer camps had the technology, idealism and knowledge been available.

And the film was written and directed by two Englishmen. :)

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Actually,Guinness, if you check back you'll find the British DIDN'T do it first.The term 'concentration camp' meant just that- to concentrate the Boers in controlled areas. The results were wrong until civilian control was installed at the insistance of the British government, when the death rate dropped to about 2%,not bad even for the population of London in those days.They were NEVER extermination camps!
The Americans, those pillars of freedom and democracy,beat us to it by about 66 years when they imprisoned the Indian tribes(I think it was the Cherokee) in camps,murdered and raped many of them and intentionally let many starve to death.They did the same in the Philippine war of independance in 1899,same results.Other did the same.

As for the film,whoever wrote and directed it,where was it made?

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

You're right, Guinniss, the film WAS British,made to improve British opinion and sympathy towards American personnel here during the war.
But wern't the hostile comments about the British Empire actually made by the American prosecutor, who hated the British because he was killed by them during the American Revolution?
We've wandered a bit again from the thread,still it's fun.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Totally agree, the camps set up in the Transvaal were simply concentration camps (before the term was bastardised by the nazis), however the camps were also used to house, believe it or not, jews in the area. My original point was to debate that Hitler got his ideas of concentrating his enemies into one area from the British and not from what happened in Namibia.

As an aside, I read a book written by an Auschwitz survivor, (been wracking my brains for the last 20 minutes but I cant recall the title), a few years ago, he described building the ovens after he arrived, apparently Hitler only thought of 'the final solution' as an afterthought (chilling when you think about it), so even Auschwitz wasn't an 'extermination' camp' per se either

And as for rape, pillage and murder, Pizarro and Cortez have the yanks beat hands down by a number of years.

I believe you are right about the prosecutor, he was someone who was killed in the American war of indepence if I recall correctly. Cant see how it was a pro-US film though, I know the female lead was a Yank but cant recall ay other Americans in it apart from the prosecutor

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Pizzaro and Cortes didn't have to exterminate the Indians-European diseases,smallpox mainly, did it for them.They died like flies. I still put the Yanks among the first to actually organise it in an age when we were suppost to be becoming more civilised.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Just had a quick read of the posts and is obvious is it's more like us english wanting to get rid of the Scots because they apparently take more dosh than they put in.
Scotland joined the union because they were skint.. nowt to do with wars.. they joined and accepted Westminster as the hub of power because they agreed to a hefty financial package way back in the 18th century....if I was a Scot I'd vote to leave England to it's demise.. England is about to be destroyed by this Government and if the Scots are "canny" as they make, out the time to leave the Union is now .

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independence?
 

No Mancie this country has already been destroyed over the last 13 yeas but sadly your the only one who can't see it;)

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Mancie.....wake up, England was knackered before "This Lot" were elected, granted i don't think they will improve things much if any, but wake up n smell the coffee, it was already destroyed.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

The Far Left and the Far Right speaking in unison ;)

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

And the Scots come up with a health brainwave...lets tax supermarkets for selling fags...we'll make £110 million in 4 years...

BBC News - Six Scottish Sainsbury's supermarkets end cigarette sales

result..supermarkets stop selling fags...government get zilch...job losses ensue (wholesalers, distributors and even the guys on the kiosks)...meanwhile your average Rob Roy continues smoking his roll ups bought in the corner shop or more likely from a mate who's just got back from Benidorm.

Many others can even skip across the border and buy from an English supermaket.

Please hurry up and devolve, this kind of inane nanny state politics is contagious

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Have they set up border checks to make sure no is smuggling English supermarket fags across the border?

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

If you take away Alex Salmond, who else can you think of who is keeping the Scottish Independence issue on the boil? Anyone name another SNP member off the top of their heads? Anyone name a Member of the Scottish Parliament speaking against Independence?

Strikes me that if you take away Salmond, you take away the Scottish Independence debate. His personality has secured Westminster's agreement to a referendum.

Seems a daft basis on which to base the future prosperity of a nation.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

I'm guessing the borders wild be similar to those in N Ireland, I was working over there a few years ago, and was driving from Belfast to Dublin, the only way I noticed I had crossed the border, was that the road signs changed from miles to kilometres, without warning I may add, I thought I was going in a circle until I realised, oh that and the massive signs telling you that the roads were paid for with EU money, I'm guessing this would be the same in Scotland, massive eu handouts, so we would still be paying anyhows

Also the question of defence, to guarantee no invasion of this isle ( wich we have managed for nigh on a millennia ) would we not be obligated to providing support for a Scottish Army

And also the cost to us in replacing the Scottish regiments, and the impact it would have on our own troop strengths, I am sure some one on here could provide figures on how many Scottish soldiers the british army currently has

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

As replacements the disbanded English regiments could be reactivated for a start. As to numbers involved a Battalion can be anything from 300 - 1,200 troops, at present the "Royal regiment of Scotland" contains
5 regular Battalions (lets say 5,000 troops) plus 2 TA Battalions (2,000 troops) Also to be included would be the 1st Battalion the Scots Guards (part of the household Division, but still in the main a Scottish regiment) so a further 1,000 troops. Totalling 8,000 men approximately I'd suggest.

That said, the figures used are mere guesswork as real numbers are usually vastly different, many units & in particular Infantry are chronically undermanned. Add to that the amount of Scots that serve with Corps & Regiments within the "English" army, may change their allegiance if they could do their job with a "Jock" unit.

Ach weel, ya jus' dinnae ken, ya ken ! ;)

http://www.royalregimentofscotland.o...battalions.php

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Of course DinG, one has to take into account the number of "foreigners" (non-English), that have traditionally served in the British Armed Forces throughout time. Irish, Welsh, Ghurka, Indian, Fijian (and other Pacific Isle nations), South Africans, Australians, New Zealanders, West Indian and many more.
The Scottish Regiments are really that only in name - they are paid for by the British Taxpayer, so it is therefore unlikely that an independant Scotland could afford them.
As this vote affects the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland then all citizens should be entitled to a vote - then Scotland would probably be certain of getting independence.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

If Scottish regiments are payed for by the British taxpayer, then some of the money must come from Scottish taxpayers. And it should not be forgotten that Scottish troops served with distinction in the British Armed Forces. We should not forget that on this day of remembrance.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

I did state "British Taxpayer" - as Scotland is still part of the United Kingdom & Northern Ireland then it should be quite obvious that Scots are also paying the same taxes.
I have served with Scots as well as the other nationalities that I mentioned so I am well aware of their contribution since the Act of Union.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

well looks like robert the bruce approves of the uk staying as it is :D:D:D

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Ya even he knows with side his bread is buttered on:D

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

no we are stronger together.united we stand divided we fall:) he was french anyway .

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Don't give scots the satisfaction. This year England, Wales and N Ireland should have a vote to see if we should eject Scotland from the union and beat them to it.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

That sounds like a great idea:D

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

dont give the scots satisfaction,your having a laugh so you are saying all scots want independence, think the same, look the same way i dont think so as your hero david cameron is scottish lol you call me a bigot but your judgemental attitude lowers your level i thought you were better than that:eek::p

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

So I assume you would back giving Northern Ireland back to the Irish as they inhabit the same bit of rock?

I’m starting to think it might be a good idea to break up the union, it might give Westminster politicians some sense of reality about where we stand in the world instead of constantly trying to ‘punch above our weight’ at vast cost.

Perhaps Etonians don’t get the boxing analogy where 99.9% of fighters who try to box above their weight, get beaten.

BTW.. while we talk of fighting....The Scots have defended Britain to the the tune of twice the man loss level of England since the Union and you ask if we can defend ourselves?

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Newspaper headline "Cameron says wants to be UK PM until 2020".

I'm off to Scotland.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Bye missing you already:D

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independence?
 

Maybe all Scots don't want independence because they realise if the cut ties with GB free university education would go as would free prescriptions free hospital parking free home care for the elderly ect ect ect;)

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

we cant get rid of that abomination called europe and theres a sea between us so what chance have we got of getting rid of a country thats attatched to us ?

ps:

if england and scotland divorce who gets custordy of andy murray ?

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independence?
 

They can keep the jockstrap:D

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independence?
 

thats why youll never take our free-dom lol:D:D

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independence?
 

Ya if we stopped keeping drunken jocks we'd soon get rid of Gordon's debts:rolleyes:

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

ahh but if you study the facts the country has always been in debt.:rolleyes: study the graphs and the proof is there.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

There are many ways to tell lies...statistics are just one of the many.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independence?
 

Ya Margaret, Lies, damn, lies and statistics:rolleyes:

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

So we're finally getting down to the serious decisions.
It's time the UK Government told Salmond he can't pick and choose his own terms and leave the rest of the UK to cover the risks of any wild policies he comes up with- and if he knew we'd cover him he certainly would.
Any UK party which let him get away with it would surely loose power in the rest of the UK, not just Scotland. I think public feeling in rUK would be even stronger than it is about the EU.
Good that all three parties are together on this!
Now let's hear his 'Plan B'. Just give him time(say 6 hours) to think of one.

BBC News - Scottish independence: 'Yes' vote means leaving pound, says Osborne

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

Salmond has always been a complete pillock in my view, very rare i would ever agree wi Osbourne who himself is one, but on this i do.

Re: Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?
 

I'll be watching the odds but I think it's a good bet that they'll vote NO to independence. (Bookies' odds are pretty reliable on political issues!)