Re: Another one bites the dust
 

Even Accy Asda doesn't sell booze 24 hours which rather makes a mockery of that argument.

You still can't come back to me and explain why a tied house pays almost twice as much per barrel of beer than a free house does. How is that Labour's fault? Wake up Bob, take off the political blinkers and see the world how it really is for a change. It's like the old classic about obesity being the government's fault because of packaging regulations not being strict enough.

All governments have their faults but blaming everything on them is the lazy option.

Re: Another one bites the dust
 

Well, you may be right about ASDA in Accrington, I do not know what their licensing hours are because I never shop there. However, different branches do operate different policies, apparently subject to the branch manager's discretion.

Why does a tenant in a tied house pay more for beer than a free house? Simple because a tied house, as is implied by the description, is owned by the brewery. Breweries are businesses and the object of any business is to maximise profit any way they can. That is a duty imposed upon them by shareholders. In addition to charging for beer at the full rate, they will also add a proportion to the cost of the product to cover the cost of any capital investment made in the premises, plus advertising and promotion costs, plus any loans they may have made to the tennant to cover fixtures and fittings. For the truth of that why don't you nip in to the Walmsley and have a word with the landlord there, I am sure he will be only too happy to explain Thwaites's pricing policy to you. And if you nip in on a quiet afternoon he might even have time to draw you a diagram - it certainly seems like you need one.

As far as political blinkers are concerned Ken old chap, I have no use for them. Unlike some who like their opinions pre-packaged, I prefer to think for myself. That way if I make a mistake there is only me to blame.

You are quite right to allow that all Governments, have their faults, but I think that you must also allow that some have more than most and that the last Government showed itself as being second to none in that regard.

Re: Another one bites the dust
 

i have had a pub (twice) as some of you will know and i still dont get my head around the way the breweries think if i can explain why i think they are arse about face (if that is the right expression ...

if Volvo for instance were supplying volvo cars to Walker Farimond (a volvo dealership) they would not sell a volvo car to John Hill car sales cheaper than walker farrimond so why do Thwaites sell their Beer(volvo car) cheaper to the Peel Park (john hill car sales) than the Griffins head (walker farrimond) this seems to be the only business that works this way if you like the thaites tied houses are franchises and in any business a franchise buys product from the main dealer cheaper than others

i hope i have explained my thoughtsand not confused you

Re: Another one bites the dust
 

OK, Once more into the breach...

I am a brewery. I produce beer which I hope to sell at a substantial profit over what it costs me to brew (overheads, raw materials, tax, etc.) let us suppose for arguments sake that it costs me 20p per pint to brew. That is my break even cost -no mark up for profit.

let us further suppose that I have decided that my profit margin will be a standard 2/3, so that is 20p cost plus 2x20p profit which gives a price to my customer of 60p per pint. (it is actually 1/3 materials plus 1/3 overheads plus 1/3 profit but I am trying to simplify)

To continue; I have several customers, one is the tenant of a pub which my company owns and another is a chain of supermarkets. The tenant needs to make a profit too, so he will add as much as he thinks his market will bear, but I may place a limit on what he can charge so that his prices do not differ too wildly from those of any other tenant I may have and so skew the market in his favour - I have to be fair to all my tenants. Let us suppose then that I allow a further mark up of 20p to cover the tenants profits and overheads. This brings the cost of the pint to the drinker to 80p.

My other customer, the Supermarket chain, is different. He is able, because of his size and the number of outlets at his disposal, to buy my product in very large quantities. Where my tenant can sell maybe three or four 22gallon kegs per week. the supermarket can sell 200 thousand gallons per week. He also prefers his product to be packed in disposable containers and he is prepared to assist in the cost of installing the packing machinery. He has one stipulation however; the price must be as low as possible. Typically he would like to pay just 1p per pint over my cost price. He will then pass this saving on entire to his customer - 61p per pint. and use the product to entice customers in to buy his other products.

Quick calculations are necessary, I must consider who is the more important customer.
the tenant nets me £281.00 per week the supermarket nets me £2,000 per week. Add to the calculation that the tenant is also a fairly high maintainence customer, I have to bail him out regularly with advertising and promotions, with fixtures and fittings and even business loans to keep him going. The situation was different when I only had tenants and off licenses to supply, then the market was fairly fixed but since the government decided that anyone can have an alcohol licence and the supermarket has come along my shareholders eyes are glittering. I am sure that they would even consider 0.5p per pint over cost if the supermarket insisted. The free house across the road from my tenant is a pain in the bum really. It sources my product from a subsiduary of the supermarket. Since the supermarket is paying a low price it can afford to pass on some of the saving to the free house, who unfortunately has a habit of passing some of this saving on to the drinker thus undercutting my tenant's prices. But never mind, the more the supermarket buys the more profit I make, and the more profit I make the happier my shareholders are.

If you are still following me, that is basically it. In reality it is much more complex than my simple explanation might give you to believe but, in essence that is how the system works. The tennant in the tied house could never hope to sell enough product to be able to compete with the Free House on price, much less the Supermarket.

Re: Another one bites the dust
 

that seems a fair summary A-B, the answer then is fer any government to prohibit supermarkets n alcohol licence, n only allow sales to pubs/clubs/ local offys etc, that is the only way i see a level playing field. of coarse the tescos.asdas,etc would bleat, but as there ******* anyway i dont care.:D

Re: Another one bites the dust
 

I should add that most breweries would like to offload their tied houses and deal solely with bulk customers. But they are not stupid and they realise that people still like to go out to drink, and keeping the price to the tenant high maximises profits from their tied houses. This is why there is such an emphasis on Gastro Pubs, Family Pubs, Sports Pubs etc. etc. .

Any niche will do.

Re: Another one bites the dust
 

I knew there had been something missing for a couple of weeks, its just twigged cashy's charming way of putting things, welcome back cashy:D:D:D

Re: Another one bites the dust
 

A-B - brilliant explanation.

end of the day regardless of the history if a pub just does not have the capacity to operate on a profit should it just be left there and nothing be done with it for the sake of that history?

people just dont want to be paying £2.80 for a pint when they can get 20 cans for a fiver from asda etc.

i have a pretty good idea what it is going to be - and its not another kebab shop.

Re: Another one bites the dust
 

just seen in a paper that for the first time ever..food takings are bigger than drinks takings in pubs in the uk so far this year.another one bites the dust ? another one bites the gammon steak more like :eek:

Re: Another one bites the dust
 

mitchells and butler - one of the uk's biggest pub companies has been actively changing all its bars/pubs into eateries/restaurants.

wet sales are not looking promising so they've made a conscious decision to either convert them it food sale leaders or sell them off to other companies.

loads of barracuda's/varsity's etc are up for grabs - o neills are being sold off where they deem them as wet lead pubs - the blackburn one has been sold

they've sold all the bowling alleys - like the one in bolton. hollywood bowls

alot of the smaller pubs have taken the chop too - either closing them or putting their lease up for grabs.

Re: Another one bites the dust
 

Looking Good then!! Lol!



Best Regards - Taggy

Re: Another one bites the dust
 

A very in-depth reply, Bob, although a little unnecessary as I do understand the concept of bulk sales.

The points you made are all very valid but the rents vary from tenant to tenant within the same pub depending on the success rate and the mark up of nearly 100% on barrels of ale would seem to be a little excessive in covering things such as advertising charges.

I get where you're coming from but I still stand by my statement that the breweries themselves are killing off their own pubs through greed and blaming it on the government when it simply isn't true.

Re: Another one bites the dust
 

I have a friend who is the landlady of a pub in Burnley her and her hubby are in partnership with another couple, they opened it p around feb march this year, ts a free house has 6 cask beers and numerous other bears and lagers, there's live music Friday and Saturday nights and Sunday Tea and from all accounts they are going quite well

Re: Another one bites the dust
 

Excellent stuff, good for them.

Further evidence that free houses are the way forward.

Re: Another one bites the dust
 

A LANDLORD has given up the leasehold on his pub for nothing rather than keep losing money.

Mark Graham, 52, had run the Dog and Partridge in Back Lane, Baxenden, for six years with his wife Elizabeth.

But it has now closed after falling customers and rising costs.

Mr Graham, who has been in the pub business for 16 years, said he believed that many other pubs like his would go the same way.

He said he had been trying to sell the lease for £60,000 but decided simply to give it up for nothing rather than continue to lose money at the pub.

Mr Graham said he had seen little help from local authorities or the brewery, Scottish and Newcastle, which owns the pub.

LET 131210

Dog & Partridge 41 Back Lane, BAXENDEN, Accrington BB5 2RE Lancashire | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Re: Another one bites the dust
 

So if in Jan I come for a visit will there be any PUBS LEFT ??????????????

Re: Another one bites the dust
 

I'm sure you'll still be able to find one or two.

Re: Another one bites the dust
 

I'm sure the Railway will still be open mick, Less and Beni won't let it close:D

Re: Another one bites the dust
 

I think the only way a Pub can be a viable business now is as a second 'job' to someone. i.e. I go to work in my paying job but live in the pub ( thus saving mortgage payments etc) but instead I work in evenings/weekends as a second job running a pub. This hopefully pays my expenses of living there and maybe a little sweetner on top. I dont think its possible now for a Pub to be a career choice for a couple.

Cheap booze from offlicenses etc will never help but when I left the game in 1997 a pint of Stella was approaching 2 quid. you could equally buy a 2 litre bottle of strong white cider for £1.49 from ALDI. Ditto wine was 2.50 a large glass, bottles of decet quality stuff was less than that even back then.


I did work pubs etc for years and the only places back 10 years that were making any real cash were the managed pub/restaurants like Brwers fayres and the ilk. There will always be the odd good free house but they are few and far between and its not going to get any easier.

Re: Another one bites the dust
 

Think you maybe right there entwisi, but running two jobs like that takes some doing, I'd much rather work longer in my own job than have two, especially with the second being in the licencing trade. Just as a matter of interest its absolutely years since I had a drink in a town centre pub, whats the average price for Larger, bitter mild ect