Corrupt Council ?
 

Just seen somebody driving round the town centre with a small billboard on the back of a trailer saying

Hyndburn Council
proved to be a
corrupt council

I might have got the middle line slightly wrong but had to remember it because I didn't have my phone on me to take a photo :)

Re: Corrupt Council ?
 

saw it on way down to town parked further up st james st, middle line was proved by evidence, did ponder if the otherside had the evidence tho LOL!

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Was it being driven by a chap with no hair and an evil grin :rolleyes::D

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Naughty.........:D

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What ever do you mean?

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Believe its the guy who stood as an independent against PB in May, and is standing as an independent in the Baxenden in he November election caused by the death of John Griffiths

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I haven't heard much about the election - who's standing and when is the actual election date?

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The Election Date is 18 November - Nomination papers can not be submitted until Friday 15 October

Re: Corrupt Council ?
 

If only half of the criticism aimed at Hyndburn Council , and in particular at its leader Peter Britcliffe , is justified , the Labour opposition on the council must rank as amongst the most ineffective in the land .

Re: Corrupt Council ?
 

Could you please quantify the above statement as I don't think you understand how the local government process works.

In essence all important decision are made by the Cabinet - and the chair of the Cabinet is the Leader of the Council. At Cabinet meetings the chair chooses who of those present can speak - the present leader of Hyndburn Borough Council will only allow 1 opposition councillor to speak on any issue (and then it is usually only if he thinks they will agree with him). Although Cabinet decision can be called into Overview and Scrutiny to be discussed further, the controlling group have a majority on the 2 Overview and Scrutiny committees (as well as holding the positions of chair and vice chair) and so it is nye on impossible to have a decision reversed.

The only real forum any opposition group have to get things changed is at meetings of Full Council when they can table motions to be debated and also attempt to reverse any policies that are presented to the Full Council meeting that they regard as being detrimental to the citizens of Hyndburn. As the number of meetings of Full Council have been drastically reduced (and meetings have been cancelled at short notice as has been discussed in other threads) this avenue has in effect been closed to the opposition.

Presently many of the decisions are also being taken by Emergency Powers -which are then presented to Cabinet at the next meeting.

There is also a complete lack of information about the important decisions being disseminated to the Labour Group of Councillors until they have actually happened -in fact quite often the first we know about it is when we read an article in the Observer or Telegraph. We do work hard trying to get our policies accepted by the Council but without being in control it is extremely difficult as the Leader sets out to undermine any opposition. When we do get policies implemented they are being undermined by the Leader.

Maybe you would like to explain how you would be a more effective opposition to the current administration.

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I suggested getting the External Auditors involved. Any mileage in that?

Re: Corrupt Council ?
 

The wag reveals his true colours, and only two days after rounding on me for being political when I accused him of being a Tory sympathiser. When you find yourself in opposition against a dictator who won't allow full council meetings to vote on the seriously important issues in the borough it makes serious objections bloody hard.

I have no idea who you are but you're full of the same woolly arguments as many Tory supporters on this forum when it comes to rubbishing Labour.

Take a leaf out of Jaysay's book and try putting some facts into your replies for a change.

Re: Corrupt Council ?
 

As I've said before this would probably lead back to the Chief Executive, a man who is struggling to hold the machinery together whilst the children fight amonst themselves.

Since he is extremely good at his job I would be reluctant to go down any route that would jeopardise his position for the sake of bringing down the opposition a few months early.

Re: Corrupt Council ?
 

The fact that there is to be a bye election in November adds weight to suspicions regarding the cancellation of the September Council meeting. If the meeting had gone ahead, the controlling group would not have had a majority, and there was some contentious business to be voted on at the meeting. (ie market leases.) In the absence of an agreement to reschedule the meeting for the following week, officers decided to delay all business to the December meeting. By then, the bye election will have taken place, and as by common consent it is a safe Conservative seat, the likelihood is that the majority will be restored.

Simple question to the External Auditors. Given the situation regarding the vacant seat and the nature of the business to be discussed, did the Council make sufficient effort to ensure due process in the timing of the Council meetings?

If their answer is yes, then there is no more to be said.

Re: Corrupt Council ?
 

Makes sense to me gynn;)

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You are totally correct .

I had always thought it was a democratic process .

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:confused::confused::confused:

Please specify woolly arguments I have used .

Does criticising the Labour opposition on Hyndburn Council necessarily make me anti-Labour ?

You speak of Tory supporters . You know nothing of my voting record in national and local elections .

If you want some detail to back up my original quote I will give it in the form of this question . What did the Labour opposition do regarding the issue of the terrace on Pendle St , an issue you mentioned the other day ?

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Please name the children who are fighting amongst themselves .

It may clarify the point I am trying to make .

A few months ago a Labour councillor came to see me about a certain matter . He hadn't been in the house 10 minutes when a Conservative councillor came about the same matter . Then the silliness started . I might as well not have been in the room . I sat looking at them arguing about petty points and getting nowhere . It was an eye-opener .

As persons I respect both of them , and am sure they both do their best for those they represent . But as party political politicians they brought no credit to themselves .

And some people wonder why I think party politics should have no place in local government .

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Think you've hit the nail on the head JCB, why do you think I no longer give two hoots for local politics, and I was a person who was very much involved until 2001. Peter Britcliffe is a friend of mine, in fact he actually call into see me on Thursday, I wished him happy new year, for 2007 that is:D but when Graham was leader of the labour group, they were both as bad as each other, who could outdo the other, who could score the most points over the other, now it seams Ken Moss has taken on that mantle, which does him no favours what so ever. Having met Ken I actually think he's better than that, as I've said on here before he's the only Labour councillor that talks any sense, so it saddens me that he has taken this line, but people do there own thing and its up to him, but it does disappoint me nonetheless

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Thanks for putting me in the picture . It has been an eye-opener . Clearly opposition to the ruling group's decisions are difficult and maybe impossible , given what you have told me .

Based on your info I withdraw my criticism of the Labour opposition on the council .
I also apologise if my remarks have led to any being given a wrong impression of the Labour group .

Is the Cabinet statutory , or is it a system created by Hyndburn Council itself ? I have concerns about it within a democracy .

I also have concerns about the Full Council meetings , which I think should be monthly at least , about Emergency Powers , about the power of the Leader , and about the Overview and Scrutiny committees .

At the next round of local elections I think that the Labour candidates should stand on a platform for Council Reform .
The Labour councillors should commit themselves to a root and branch reform of the Council where it is possible within the law .

I am certain that most of the electorate in Hyndburn are , like I was , unaware of how Hyndburn Council is run . I suggest a process of educating the electorate be implemented by the Hyndburn Labour Party .

At present I don't know what changes can be made to make the council more democratic within the laws concerning Local Government .

Re: Corrupt Council ?
 

I have two main problems with local politics , Jaysay .
One is the way the council is run . Is it run according to Local Government legislation from Westminster , or is it run according to rules made by the ruling group ?
I was surprised by the information given by Claytonender . Such a system is undemocratic in many ways , and must lead to trouble between councillors .
I have no problem with Ken Moss . He is free to criticise anything I say , even though he has misunderstood where I am coming from . He is doing what our councillors do , indulging in party politics , and that brings me to my second main problem .

I have said before that I don't see a need for party politics in local government . Most of the issues dealt with by the council are of a non-party political nature . So the councillors seek matters that may divide them , and finding none they turn to personalising things . They get personal , and this leads to a bad form of politics .

Local politics and the Council set-up are due for a good shake up as I indicated in the quote before this one .

I am tending towards criticising the present ruling group , the Conservatives , for the present situation and hoping the Labour group will bring about reform to Council procedures .
I am open to correction if my understanding of all this is faulty .

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I absolutely agree with you and on the surface that's what it looks like. But there is a lot of cross party working and some Councillors are very happy to work with their opposite number.

Re: Corrupt Council ?
 

I like it when people work together

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HBC is corrupt didnt Malcom Pritchard saga prove that ?

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Did you dunk his biscuits?.;)

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i worked with graham Jones for a few years in printing industry .he is has honest as the day is long..its not which party locally you want,its who's going to help you whoever polical sway..can say jonesy would help and certainly aint 'corrupt' in anyway...cant ask for anymore than that !!!! not bothered who you trust but i'll personally stand up for graham in that respect,,

Re: Corrupt Council ?
 

He didn't stop long enough;)

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Labour were just as undemocratic when last they were in power for 13 years JCB, if not more, a 44 seat majority was never good for democracy and some of the things that went on behind closed doors was unbelievable, which was virtually everything:(

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Thanks .
I'm glad to hear some good news . Let's hope there is more of it .

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Could that not be applied to all colours of politics though? Up here it can be like a playground fight when they disagree. Evens stevens is not always good either.

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Your right Spugs was just pointing out the Labour were no different and after being involved in local politics most of my life I'm glad I no longer have any interest what-so-ever, let um get on wi it as far as I'm concerned

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You are making me all the more disallusioned , Jaysay .

Is the set-up beyond redemption ?

Re: Corrupt Council ?
 

Th all point is JCB, irrespective of who controls the council, the opposition will try to pull them to pieces in the public eye, but as Gayle said earlier councillors do work together which is the way it should be, and it sure as hell is better for the people in general, I think like yourself I've been an advocate of political councils but it ain't going to happen anytime soon

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The illusion seems to be for some people that the Tories and Labour are at each other's throats on a permanent basis and I'm happy to say that this isn't true, in fact committee meetings where no members of the Cabinet are present are usually very productive as the oneupmanship is removed.

The party divisions basically boil down to money at local level and opposition to the way in which it is spent. Currently, the Conservatives are spending our tax money as if it is going out of fashion and there is nothing that Labour can do because the Leader of the Council won't hold full council meetings so that we can vote.

The financial system within the Cabinet has engineered a situation where Peter Britcliffe has given himself £100k to spend on whatever he likes. None of that can be proven to be electioneering but I imagine that Baxenden will be in for a few heavily-publicised handouts before the bye-election.

Expect to see many more Conservative councillors presenting cheques to people in The Observer before the next round of elections. Just remember that it is your taxes that are paying for these donations whilst each of the wards are being told that there is no money for repairs and ungrades to vital services.

Re: Corrupt Council ?
 

You might want to try asking your cousin, one Cllr Dobson.

Cabinet is a system that we have adopted and would work quite well were it not for the man at the top who keeps people in check with the carrot of financially-rewarding positions and the stick of losing them.

I am on the Overview and Scrutiny committee for resources and they are very unforgiving, even those from the Conservative side. The problem is that they barely have influence, let alone power, so any Cabinet decisions can still only be criticised, not changed. They have managed to refine certain policies over the years, however, but it does strongly depend on the whims of the Cabinet.

The only way to reform that is to reform the way that decisions are voted on and this council is not going to kick away the struts which gave it power.

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What will Labour do to reform the way that decisions are voted on if it gets into power?

Why is scrutiny made up of Councillors and not normal people with no axe to grind?

Re: Corrupt Council ?
 

The theory is that Councillors ARE normal people who the electorate have put their trust in. The fact that we consider them to have an axe to grind shows how some of them (not all, Ken!) have abused that trust.

The body that looks into the way individual Councillors behave is the Standards Committee, which is chaired by a person completely independent of the Council. Maybe that body should be given the remit of looking at things like cancelling meetings to suit individual's needs.

Re: Corrupt Council ?
 

Occasionally having full council meetings would by my suggestion.

I'm sorry to have yet another go at Peter Britcliffe but if anyone can defend cancelling full councils between July and December so that no votes can be taken between those times then they are a better man than me.

That is not my idea of democracy, I would venture to call it dictatorship.

Re: Corrupt Council ?
 

Theory does not always work in practice though

Re: Corrupt Council ?
 

Hence the need for some checks and balances, and external review.

At the risk of sounding boring and repetitive, that is why the external auditors are there. If not used, they become worthless.

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Though I seem to remember when an independent panel recommended expenses increases, they were ignored, and whoppingly increased expenses were awarded, after they'd voted to reward themselves.

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But distasteful as that was, the Council acted within the rules of due process. Cancelling meetings to favour one political group rather than another is in a different league.

Re: Corrupt Council ?
 

Independent scrutiny and recommendations, that can be totally ignored, sounds more a complete waste of time, rather than distasteful.


http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...and-45105.html

Re: Corrupt Council ?
 

To be quite honest I think that the system of Cabinet run councils was a backward step, the committee system was far better in my eyes were the strength of party was shown by committee make up, but at least all elected members had a say, and decisions could be overturned at full council, all except Planning that is. Okay there are the scrutiny system, but to be quite honest I wouldn't want to be part of any council under this system:(

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He is not only my cousin , he is also my Godson .

On the rare occasions when I do see him I have better things to talk about than politics , the last time I met him being the exception .

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John, Ken the only Labour Councillor that talks sense. I'm hurt and wounded !!!!

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there all in it for the same thing.

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Its very rare you come on here now Clare, was talking about on here, as I don't here them anywhere else;)

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What is that then?

Re: Corrupt Council ?
 

Obviously for the good of the community:rolleyes:

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It may not be a popular opinion but I respect the integrity of most politicians , local and national .

I believe that Margaret Thatcher's policies were what she considered best for the country . I believe the same of the late Michael Foot .
Both were far from each other in their politics , but both held views they considered right .

I would have opted for Michael Foot any day , but I still think Maggie did what she thought was right , though I could in no way support her.

Re: Corrupt Council ?
 

I don't understand why this candidate's campaign slogan points to a corrupt council. Can't really see that it will endear any voters towards him. He will have to explain exactly why he thinks they are and could get his knickers in a twist.

Better to promote himself as to the positive improvements he could add to Baxenden by becoming their Councillor.

Re: Corrupt Council ?
 

Well said, Kate.

Vote for the person and not the party. Slagging off the opposition in Rishton is a surefire way of losing any election and I'm sure it's the same in other wards too.

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Presumably, you're referring to money and power. What a media-driven idea that is.

A junior councillor gets around £280 each month after tax and other contributions and you hardly have any power unless you are with the controlling group. You have countless e-mails and phonecalls every day plus meetings and residents' groups to attend in your spare time each week. If you are lucky enough to be granted the chair of any committee then you get in the region of £1,500 a year extra per position but they tend to be snapped up by, well, a certain person.

County Councillors get extra money but you're basically looking at a full-time job by this stage. Backbench MPs get in the region of £66k per year but spend four days a week away from their family in a house that isn't theirs and the remaining free time they have at home is gobbled up with constituency matters. They're not exactly the most stable of jobs either.

Apart from that, life is one long gravy train.

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In Kingston, our municipal election will be held on October 25 ... and thankfully, party politics are not involved. I vote in Williamsville Ward for my councillor, and also, of course, for the position of Mayor. I know that one of the candidates for Mayor is a member of the Liberal Party ... his father represents Kingston and the Islands in the Ontario legislature ... Jim Neill, who will be getting my vote for councillor, is a member of the New Democratic Party (Labour). However, party politics are not the issue ... there are no party blocs on council ... the concerns that voters have are strictly local: infrastructure, policing, property taxes, development of our beautiful waterfront, garbage and recycling etc. Party politics, and the resulting acrimony, is not an issue. And I don't think it should be. Voters will vote for the candidates they think will best represent their interests and who will do the best job for the City of Kingston.

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He could have stood for Labour Kate, its just that he hates Britcliffe that's all;)

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Thou hast lots to learn youngun:D

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Are you saying he has to serve his apprenticeship before, he can be corrupt?
:eek:

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No but it helps:D

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To serve your time as a councillor Less, not to become corrupt by doing so:D

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Its sounds more like a prison sentence than a "calling" for the community. :confused:

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'Hyndburn's council leader says he’s worth every penny...'
Council boss?s allowances - Accrington Observer

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Only sounds like it Spugs, its much worse than that really:D

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Ouch!!!! Must need someone special or slightly cuckoo to take it on then.

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I like that , Eric .

How about an exchange ?

Your councillors for ours . I am sure they would love Hyndburn . I keep reading that it is the place to be . ;)

Re: Corrupt Council ?
 

You don't have to be made, but it helps a hell of a lot if you are:D

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Well the part of it thats called Ossy JCB:D

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:( Accrington has its beauty spots :)

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I've said it before but you get out what you put in.

I have thrown myself into it and am loving every second, more or less. For me, it pays to be seen out and about in your ward working with people to help your community and the feeling of satisfaction when you get thanks for solving a resident's problem is priceless.

Conversely, you could bury your head in the sand for four years and still get your allowances. It all depends on what sort of person you are.

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Can't say I've come across many councillors of any colour that subscribe to that Ken