Re: Councillors expenses
 

The scrutineers (sounds like a bunch of pirates) are nothing to do with the Cabinet and so are one step removed. I have to say that by and large the Resources committee that I sit on doesn't pull its punches with picking policies to bits and has an excellent chair in the form of Cllr Hayes.

The problem I have with it is that it barely has influence on Cabinet decisions, let alone power. If I call a portfoilio holder in for scrutiny they may simply decide to send someone in their place. Grilling the monkey instead of the organ grinder passes the buck of culpability.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

That's one thing I am in favour of unless it has been discussed with the officer in question beforehand. Councillors sign up for a life in the public eye, council officers generally just want a job and I don't see any reason for them to become the focus for something which may end up being an unpopular move. If they're simply carrying out the instructions of the Cabinet then it is for the council to decide whether they are doing a good job, not for the public to decide based on the popularity of a policy.

In my view, civil servants enact policy, councillors take the credit or the blame for their own ideas.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Oh God, here we go.....

I'm sure that when Labour take control again AccyWeb will be awash with Conservative councillors and the reds will disappear into the ether, never to be heard from again. What surprises me is that you're so absolutely sure of how Labour will play the game. Virtually all the councillors are different from when you were involved in politics and times have changed ever so slightly. You of all people should therefore realise that any reforms will need about 12 months to have any impact but I'm afraid wholesale changes aren't really an option, they're a necessity.

Better let Peter know, if he's still writing the songs then he'll need to make them too.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Ken Moss ...(town center thread ) ..I've spent a fair bit of time in Accy this past six months and as someone who hasn't grown up here I'm not as critical as those who have watched its decline.

(sorry don't know how to join two threads together )


not being critical Ken .. but maybe you need to ask one or two of your Labour colleagues who have lived in Hyndburn for a few more years than you about a chap with the surname Rix , seem to remember he used to wield quite a bit of power when he was a Council employee ... whatever happened to him :rolleyes:

am sure Jaysay can add to the story ..

Re: Councillors expenses
 

If I've given the impression that I expect council employees to be neutered puppets then that's not what I'm trying to say at all. There are some very influential and highly competent officers at HBC, I'm just saying that I don't think it's terribly fair to drag them into political slanging matches when they're simply trying to do their job.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

just check out the history of the Rix guy and his connections , the guy was so smooth he gave Accrington/Hyndburn a prostate exam without needing the lube or the discomfort :D

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Was never his agent, next quesation:D

Re: Councillors expenses
 

You've probable insulted Peter a couple of dozen times since I last spoke to him, I certainly ain't heard from anybody on HBC since well before Xmas the only person I've seen is Ken Hargreaves, and we've better things to talk about than politics;) As for Labour councillors disappearing, they certainly were nowhere to be seen when Flash Gordon was saving the Universe single handed so I don't think things will change, as for an influx of Tories on here, I doubt it, if they couldn't make capital when Labour were in government doubt if they'll bother at all:rolleyes:

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Thats strange, wasn't the case between 1986 and 1999;)

Re: Councillors expenses
 

What was it called then, that you did for him?

Santa's little helper?

:rolleyes:

Re: Councillors expenses
 

:rofl38::rofl38::rofl38::rofl38:Never heard him describe quite like that SJ:D

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Still not heard a single bad word about Ken Hargreaves but unfortunately I haven't met him either.

As regards Labour councillors on AccyWeb, I joined about a year ago when Gordon Brown was still Prime Minister and as far as I can tell we seemed to be more active then than we are now!

Mind you, three little birds have now told me that this particular message forum is known at Britcliffe HQ as 'KenWeb' so perhaps I'm unfairly hogging the limelight.

Hi Peter! Are you not playing out today? Always room for one more on KenWeb!

Re: Councillors expenses
 

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/m...ffice-hbc.html

Don't forget you can send other members a friend request.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

I might just do that, as an act of cross-party solidarity and in an effort to engender wider-ranging non-political debates within the confines of the neutral discussion ground that is Accrington Web.

Then again, he told me in full council he wouldn't be adding me as a Facebook friend, so I'm taking me bat n ball in.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

You could still give him a good poke.

You don't need to be his Facebook friend to have that pleasure.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

So I understand, marvellous thing this interweb. A virtual version of sexual assault.

I still think I'll give it a miss. It was pointed out that he's signed up to the 'Keep Petrol Under £1.00 per litre' campaign and the waves of pleasure that his Facebook publicity gave him were quite enough for one council.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Like I've said before your now in the same boat as me:D

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Both left alone playing with our balls or spurned like someone who isn't welcome at their party? I've always been quite good at Solitaire and the thought of Conservative Blind Man's Buff conjures up all sorts of unpleasant imagery.

I'll just have to learn to live without him.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

I was in a meeting up at Scaitcliffe this lunchtime and butties were provided.

Now whilst I wouldn't knock the quality of what was on offer, I would question whether we really needed them. I wasn't particularly hungry but I felt compelled to indulge because they were there.

In all seriousness I think we should knock them on the head and save a few thousand quid a year.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Can't say I entirely agree with you Ken ... some councillors may have had to use their lunch time break at work to attend this meeting and, again, would only suit the better off councillors who have the luxury of not having to worry about this. Besides, wouldn't want yer blood sugars dropping .. addles the brain... :D

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Who does the catering?

I know Hearn's did quite a bit for the council.

Though that was before the recent electon in Baxenden, won by the new Cllr. Hearn.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Sort of, but I class myself as one of the less better off councillors and it has been of no hardship to me to make a packed lunch in a morning when I know I will be working away from home that day. It might sound like a really small thing but if the council tightens up on bills of a few thousand here and there we're moving in the right direction to avoiding laying people off.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Yes, Cllr Hurn does the catering. Not entirely sure of the ethics of that but it's a small point.

My own waistline, much like council spending, is in need of trimming so that's another reason.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Smells a bit fishy.

Not good, when it's eggy cress butties.

:eek:

Re: Councillors expenses
 

But you work for yourself, do you not ?

Just because you may have overindulged in the past, does not mean that all Councillors feel the need to do this ... :p

Re: Councillors expenses
 

None of those today, a very suspect omission from the sandwich repertoire.

No corned dog either.

Or Spam.

The good old traditions of this mill town are being allowed to die by a corrupt council.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Is the catering at HBC contracted out, and if so, for how long?

Not saying anything's amiss. Just seems a bit odd that it's being done by a firm with close family ties to a councillor.

I remember a while ago some bigwig banging on about HBC striving to be a Fair Trade council.

Are your biccies and brews still Fair Trade?

Handpicked, by smiling and happy piccanninies?

Savings could be made there.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Yes I do, but on the days where I'm out landscaping I leave the house at around 8am so a packed lunch is a pre-requisite. On the days where I am editing it isn't so awkward but we're still getting a free lunch and there aren't many places that do that.

Then we must think of the staff who live in fear of the chop.....

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Don't know about that. I've certainly not had biccies at any meeting while I've been a councillor although I did suggest some time ago that miniscule subs for tea and coffee wouldn't go amiss.

We have actually had a Fairtrade report not long ago and the council does qualify.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

'Hyndburn is currently trying to achieve Fairtrade status and residents of Hyndburn are being asked to buy at least one item of Fairtrade goods each week to support this.'

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...ght-20196.html

Perhaps we should start a scheme in which people are encouraged to buy at least one item from a town centre shop, or market stall, and freely support their trade, before they've all gone.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

I was at the same meeting as Ken, but I had already eaten my sandwiches (a chicken teacake - made at home) before I went into the meeting. I really can't se any reason why HBC should be providing food for councillors at lunchtime, even if they have been in an earlier meeting. When I was working I either took a homemade sandwich to work or bought one.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Let's just hope that if it is decided that there's a conflict of interests, and Cllr. Hurn's given the push, they don't get Aldo Zilli in to make their butties.

:eek:

Re: Councillors expenses
 

I'm sure that will be the hardest task you've ever taken on:D:D

Re: Councillors expenses
 

First of all Kate what brain:Dbut seriously, I know a councillor (not PB) who has regularly left home at 9-30am and not returned home until after 9pm.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

No more fishy than Doltons doing printing for HBC;)

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Hang on a minute ....I understood that PB has connections to some town centre cafe where he will likely get fed free.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Oh come on Margaret you don't expect Peter to walk from Scaitcliffe house to the Market Hall just for lunch, who the hell would hold the fort whilst he was away;) :D

Re: Councillors expenses
 

I wondered when that little nugget would get another showing. Printing council literature is pretty much a necessity, someone has to do it so why not a local firm? Butties, on the other hand, are a luxury.

If I was on £31k+ per year I think I'd just about be able to treat myself. I get £4,500 for being a councillor and even I don't consider it a loss of anemity or any of that 'against human rights' guff.

Free sandwiches? Ta ta.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

The contract for providing lunches at Scaitcliffe House is, under the Council's constitution, deemed to be a small contract, and as such will effectively fly under the radar in terms of requiring competitive tenders to be sought. To retain the Council's "Excellent" status, the external auditors will only look for evidence of similar providers giving similar value for money.

I assume that no other providers can do the job, because no "Excellent" council would go anywhere near allowing a serving member of the controlling group to profit personally from providing the refreshments for unbiased meetings, would they?

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Can't believe you said this, Ken. Whilst I agree with your 'policy' of searching out smaller spendings to relieve the budget ... holding this up as a guilt trip to staff at HBC losing their jobs is dirty tactics. Not impressed.

As for solvent councillors not claiming the expenses they are entitled to, and which would ease some lesser well off councillor's income so that they can carry out their duties without the pressure of expense, I have no time for this smug martyrdom.

I stand by my original post.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

I think a certain tongue-in-cheek factor is not quite coming across in my posts.

However, I'm not being entirely flippant either about whittling out spending like this so that the people who do the actual work don't get fired. I'd rather go without the odd free meal if I knew that the ward caretaker would be litter-picking that week, or the call-centre was fully staffed, or the binmen weren't trying to cram everything into even fewer shifts, etc.

I'm quite surprised you're being seemingly quite supportive of free buffets for the councillors when the rest of the borough is wondering if they'll even have a job this time next year. I have to say that walking into a meeting to find a free lunch waiting for me and then telling everyone in Rishton that cuts have to be made doesn't sit well with my conscience.

There are hundreds of other examples of small amounts being dished out for no real reason, you only need to scan The Observer to see that. Little cheques to individuals for £250 here, £500 there....nice votewinners and even nicer for the people on the receiving end but we aren't here to use public money in that way, we should be spending to improve whole communities and once you start totting up all the little things you suddenly find that you've got a big saving.

There's also the Cabinet Action Fund which has magically been increased to £100k this year and something which the Leader of the Council can spend as he sees fit. Looking back over the years I have to say that I wouldn't have parted with a lot of it and feel that it is a lot of money in the hands of one politician.

I'll say it again, we aren't here to shout about what jolly nice chaps we are, we aren't here to crow to the world about how 'excellent' we are and we shouldn't be getting perks when the rest of the borough struggles. Even the Mayor paid for his own Civic Celebrations this year!

I can appreciate that you think there's dirty tactics at play but a council can't scream about making savage cuts and ignore ways of cushioning the blow.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

How many lunches a year are we talking about, that deems the cost too small for it to tendered out?

Who caters for other council events, receptions etc?

Re: Councillors expenses
 

All catering seems to be done by Hurns and sets the council back between roughly £2000-£4000 per year, last year it was £4059.79.

Occasional one-off payments have also been made from the Cabinet Action Fund for special events.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Not such a triffling amount to many people here in Hyndburn.

Most companies in the private sector would tender out catering for something that cost that much, to ensure they were getting value for money.

A nice 'little' earner for Cllr. Hurn.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Roughly £2000-£4000 .

Crikey one is double the other .

Re: Councillors expenses
 

I suppose that varience could be explained by whether the King demanded the crusts be cut off his butties, or proclaimed there are juicy cherries on his buns.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Surely, roughly is against all you are preaching?

espescially when last year was above roughly?


Or are you giving way to inflation?

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Perhaps if someone hadn't wanted to change the name of Hyndburn Borough Council, not to Accrington and Districts, blah, blah, blah, they'd chosen the name the Court of Hamalot B.C., they might have had more success.

Spamalot B.C., probably wouldn't have been seen as a palatable option, even though it would be more economically preferable.

There are obviously refined tastes to pander to, which can only be satisfied with the finest morsels.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Fair point.

It has varied between about £2000-£4000 a year since 2004.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

What is the issue of Daltons (as it should be spelt) doing printing for HBC? I know Graham Jones worked there, but he was in opposition wasn't he, so how could he have any influence over this?

Re: Councillors expenses
 

A major question here, is just how much will the Labour Group stop all these 'unfair' (allegedly) expenses if they were to come to power?

Re: Councillors expenses
 

I would think councillors have nothing to do with deciding who supplies food and printing to the council and it is done by officers.

I can't remember the exact amount but I think it is £500 where 3 quotes are needed for a spend to comply with the council tendering rules.

They might class each lunch as a separate spend so don't need to tender for it. I would hope they did tender though as it is £4000 a year and many local firms would like a nice regular contract like that so would be competitive.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

They will be reduced by quite a lot, Simon.

A few of us have been going through the figures in detail and we spend a shocking amount on individual expenses, many of which cannot be justified as they stand. The system needs reforming to reduce spending across the board and get better value for money in areas that are a little lax.

Most reforms take around a year to kick in but cutting throwaway cheques can be done overnight.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

I wait with bated breathe Kenny old chap:D

Re: Councillors expenses
 

We need a major overall of the expenses system. The Council just can't afford the amount of expenses we pay at the present. We pay far more in Councillors expenses that many Councils of a similar size.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Can anyone confirm that this is so?

Re: Councillors expenses
 

I would like to know as well, Councillors must be to busy to worry where the food comes from, they must be. Well I hope they are

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Well it is a full time job for some of them Neil, especially if they pack their day job in because they say its interfering with their political work:rolleyes:

Re: Councillors expenses
 

There's one Councillor on here that isn't too busy to worry about where the food comes from, maybe there should be a few more Councillors that could take time out and see if there is waste or extravagence that they can insist is curbed?
:)

Another couple of thoughts about the sandwiches? Are there always enough? Are there regularly too many and if so, what happens to the extras?

In other words, does someone from the contracted company nip around before hand taking a buttie order, or is there always a massive spread paid for automatically just in case all the scroungers, erm sorry I meant Councillors turn up at once for a free lunch?

Does our glorious leader use his medal ribbon as a bib?

;)

Re: Councillors expenses
 

There are always more than enough sandwiches to go around and I think the staff snaffle up the ones that are left. Fair enough really, they clean up the plates and make sure we have a flask of hot water ready for our brews.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

I can answer those questions.

1. The choice of supplier for a contract this size is an officer responsibility. Members would have no part to play. The relevant part of the Council's constitution says:-

5.1 This procedure applies to contracts where the estimated value of works, goods and services to be supplied is less than £10 000;

Isn't that similar to stealing Biro's?
(only kidding, better they get the leftovers than such things go to waste, after all by the time the hard working menials get to go home they'll have digested them so the butties won't leave the premises).

Re: Councillors expenses
 

I can understand if occasionally, there are surplus sandwiches.....but '..always more than enough'? Surely this suggests the council is paying more than it should for its catering services? And what the hell are the staff doing scoffing the leftovers? Should they not be at their work stations, doing the job the ratepayer pays them to do? Or are some of them surplus as well?

I think I put it a little more gently, I wouldn't want to make it seem that every day around 2 o'clock there is a bun fight between the highly paid executives & those of lower status rushing to the executive dining area, all doffing their caps & thanking the high and mighty for the crumbs from their table.

Surely the common workers will prove themselves above such charity...

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Still rather confusing.
Will quotes have been obtained, even though the annual cost is less than £10,000.?

As stated earlier, I'm sure there's nothing amiss, even though we now have a councillor with close ties to the firm contracted to do the catering.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

So that is about £80 per week which coincidently is similar to the amount I pay per month in Council taxes. That means the taxes from four households are needed every year to keep the fat cats, erm fat!

How many other householders taxes are tied up in similar little perks that are too trivial for us to worry about?

If however close scrutiny was kept on such payments how many jobs would be more secure when the necessary cuts have to be made?

Re: Councillors expenses
 

That is precisely my intention. I'll keep you updated.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Its more than 4 households Less. Most of your Council Tax goes to LCC and the Police. If you look at your bill it shows how much of it goes to HBC.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Perhaps they should rename a whole Hyndburn street Butty Street.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Looks like our Ken will be on a mission of Hearts and minds if he sits in the incharge chair come next May, think he may find things are not as black and white as he thinks they are:D

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Which is usually true in most cases, lots of things happen behind the scenes that Joe Public is unaware of. Now, If young Kenneth maintains his integrity & consistency as it appears he has on here, then maybe at least more facts will come through & people will be in a better position to judge whether or not they are being treated fairly by their elected council.

Isn't that what folk are getting so wound up about ? The fact they're not being treated openly & honesty ! A multitude of sins can be, if not forgiven at least accepted by the man on the street as long as there is proper openness & he has the truth & facts plainly & clearly in front of him !

It's the bull, lies & spin that raise the most mistrust & contempt for those in their secluded corridors of power & intrigue.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

The road to heaven is paved with good intentions Dave, it can also be said about the road to hell too:D

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Quite possible, but not being of a particularly religious bent roads to either don't really concern me. I'd sooner have the road I'm on right here & now properly maintained thank you very much ! ;)

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Your better of in Germany then Dave:D

Re: Councillors expenses
 

Yes, I do understand that Neil, but in simplistic terms If my bill = £80 p.m.
Buttie bill = £80 p.w.
Then I and 3 others are needed to cover the 'pig fest'.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_gDqx9qASjP.../PigEating.gif

All the other £80, (£80+ in most cases I get single person allowance and I think I'm in the lowest band), Per Month pay all the other bills

Re: Councillors expenses
 

ive rooted this back up because i was nosying thro the rossendale bc website ... and came across this .. the updated members allowances for 2011/12

http://www.rossendale.gov.uk/downloa..._2011_2012.pdf

anyway so me being nosy ... went looking for hyndburns .. and couldnt find one for this year ... the latest being dated 2009 ....

besides that tho ... seeing as this was started re the child care allowance being up to the age of 17 ... rossendales according to this is:
This Allowance may be claimed in respect of children aged 14 years or under or in respect of other dependents where there is medical or social evidence that care is required.
Payments will not be payable to a member of the Elected Member’s household. Payments will be based on receipted expenditure incurred.
The total amount of allowance which an individual Member may claim in any one year will be limited to £750.

Re: Councillors expenses
 

The Hyndburn Members Allowance Scheme is accessible at
Council Constitution