Councillors expenses
 

I have just noticed this in the Ev Tel
Hyndburn expense claims rules to change (From Lancashire Telegraph)
extract -
The third change to allowances will see a new carer’s allowance for childcare costs for dependent children up to the age of 17.

17:eek: - I was working full time at 15 - whose 'child' needs caring for at that age?
(There is no indication that this rule refers to disabled 'children')

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How many guesses do you want ? ;)

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It pays for thier bus fare to sign on

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Do believe it was mentioned a while back. ;)

Councillors Claiming expenses

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''This was actually voted on at the council meeting on 7 December. The Labour Group proposed the following amendment -That in respect of carer’s allowance [Paragraph 4 of the scheme], a carer’s allowance will be paid in respect of costs necessarily incurred by Councillors in arranging care for a child or children up to and including his or her 17th birthday; and
Those additional conditions of entitlement to carer’s allowance shall be that
• receipts are produced; and
• The payment in regard to the childcare element of the allowance is for a registered
child-minder, nursery or nanny or has been suitably CRB cleared.”

The amendment was defeated, after a recorded vote.

Before the meeting I looked at all the other local authorities in Lancashire and most do not pay an allowance for children over the age of 16, or stipulate the condition that the Labour Group proposed.

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I know people who became very good parents aged sixteen.

They were having babies.

Not being baby sat.

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I totally see the need for childcare allowances, especially so in the case of single parents, if the job of councillor is going to be accessible to as many people as possible.

However, as Margaret R posted, many people are out working in the big wide world, by the age of sixteen. Some will even be working as nannies, or in other jobs in the childcare profession.

Thousands of youngsters are responisble for caring for disabled relatives, as unpaid carers, many below the age of sixteen.

I have no problem with people claiming this allowance to care for their children, but I wonder who's rocking the rather large cradle, if a councillor tootles down the lane to visit his favourite pub, say?

I hope no poor, but rather large mite, is left Home Alone.

:rolleyes:

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Even sixteen:eek: ... This is neoteny gone mad.

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Most 17 years olds are in the pubs themselves, so maybe the councillors could take the little mite with them and use the allowance to get the first round in.

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I wonder if Mr Britcliffe will claim Carers Allowance for his daughter, even though she was, apparently, sat in the public gallery at the Full Council Meeting.

It's strange how the age increases as his own daughter gets older.

As someone has said earlier, there are many children who, from 14/15 yr old onwards, will be out in town drinking at weekends, so why would they need childcare?

To have no receipts, though, could leave it open to abuse.

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All expenses should need receipts no matter the ammount.

Which just reminded me to fill in my expenses from November, they owe me about £250 :D

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I wonder what the 17 year old 'child' feels about this situation.
Likely he/she has been bullied into accepting this affront to dignity- maybe even depends on this allowance being paid in order that 'spending money' is provided.
The situation is a nauseating abuse of expenses provisions.

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I don't understand why you guess at that.

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A question to one of our Councillor members.


Do all your expenses need receipts like mine do for work or can you claim some things without receipts (apart from the allowances) ?

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I can only surmise how I would feel if, at that age, my parents were claiming money for me to be 'child minded'.

I would feel humiliation - maybe the 'child' won't (having had the greed factor as an intrinsic part of their upbringing)

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That is a bit of a nasty and unfounded comment

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"(n) greed (excessive desire to acquire or possess more (especially more material wealth) than one needs or deserves)"

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This is a link to the members allowance scheme - which includes expenses.

Council Constitution

As far as I am aware, you do need to produce receipts for expenses claimed. With the exception of mileage - where you claim for an approved duty -however if you attend a training course you do need confirmation from the person who authorised attendance at the training course. There is a form to fill in mileage claims which you detail the journey and the miles driven and details of the car you used. I attended a course at Wyre Borough Council yesterday, but I will not be claiming any expenses for attending.

Also if you go to a conference, which entails an overnight stay you get a taxable allowance of £58.41 per day (which is taxable) to cover exoenses incurred.

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I don't believe you should be out of pocket for Councillor duties and you should claim back expenses incurred.

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It is also worth noting that travel expenses are paid at 60p per mile (HMRC only allow tax relief up to 40p per mile), and you don't need business use insurance, unless the rules have changed recently. Surely, then, if you are on Council business you should have this insurance, even more so if people do the role as their main job?

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It would be interesting to know the going rate for babysitters.:rolleyes:

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I don't know the current going rate babysitters get, but quite bizarrely you could legally pay a child of fifteen, to look after the daughter/son of a Hynburn councillor, who might be two years older than their 'baby' minder.

Family and Consumer UK Law Guide- Your Legal Rights Explained-Find A Solicitor In Your Area And Submit An Enquiry

Quite ridiculous.

My great-grandfather was fighting in the Boer War at the age of sixteen.

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Who gets the child care expenses if the 16/17 yr old is at work or college? Can the employer or lecturer claim them then?

What this seems to show is that some councillors, alledgedly, look after themselves more than the people they were elected to represent.

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This thread is starting to get a bit silly.

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Why? I am just asking why childcare can be claimed for a 17yr old by councillors but not for employers or colleges etc...

Theoretically, a 17yr old could be paid for caring for someone younger, but also be the subject of childcare claim themselves at the same time...it's madness

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The thing that is more than 'silly', is that some sixteen year olds are employed full-time, working in childcare facilities.

Getting themselves up, getting the bus to work, paying taxes etc.

Whilst we have some young people in Hyndburn, whose councillor parents are claiming childcare allowances for their similarly aged offspring.

Offspring the law says are legally mature enough to have sex, terminate a pregnancy without parental consent, buy a lottery ticket, leave school, and ride a licenced moped.

The proposed changes to raise the age limit for Hyndburn councillors' childcare allowances is sadly more than 'silly'.

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I recently made a complaint to Cumbria Social Services and the NSPCC as my ex-partner was leaving my 6 yr old son in the care of his 14 yr old sister for 6 hours on the Saturday's he didn't come and stay with me. I said this was not acceptable and was his sister old enough and responsible enough to handle such a job.....I was told that yes, 14 yr olds can be deemed old enough.

How and why, then, can childcare be claimed for a 17 yr old, and how many 17 yr olds would admit to be cared for by someone else?

Finally, how many Hyndburn Councillors have young children under 18? I know Peter Britcliffe and Claire Pritchard do. Any more?

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Perhaps someone's going to act like a diva, and is planning to bring back from their jollies, more than just the usual Kiss Me Quick sombreo, and stick of sickly rock.

http://theurbantwist.com/online/wp-c...6/madonna1.jpg

:rolleyes:

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I have not given my thoughts on the subject. It just the way some people are trying to point a finger at certain people for political reasons that I was refering to as silly. ALso the way 16/17 year olds has been mentioned when its for "up to 17" which means 16 is the oldest you can claim for.

I would be a bit concerned if a 16 year old of mine needed looking after.
I would also hope I would be able to leave them on there own overnight if I was working away.

My questions would be.

Are other Councils the same or is this a new idea by the independant body?

Who are this independant body anyway that decided 16 years olds need looking after?

What was the previous age limit?

What happens if a Councillor is the sole career for someone who can't be left alone, can they claim for assistance while on Council duties?

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Thanks for that, I have just started to read it - yes I am sad.

The member allowance scheme is part of the Councils constitution.
Am I right in thinking if they do not adhere it then the Council is in breech of its constitution?
What happens if the constitution is not adhered to?

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I can start to answer my own questions now about the current rules

There are conditions about the person requiring care has to live with the Councillor and the carer can not be a member of the Councillors family or household and the identity of the carer must be told to the Council.

The rate of the carers allowance is current £9 per hour

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I don't agree with this, its worse that the 16 year old being cared for I think.
I think its ok to quote it directly as its a public document.

I would be interested to know how many Councillor's claim travel allowance from home to the Council.

We are talking about Local Council here so I would not expect any Local Councillors to live that far away.

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I can't see anything about receipts in any of the document so far.
There are some other things about it I don't like as well.

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I wonder if the chair of the Licensing Committee claimed his allowance for the three years when there was no meeting?

Licensing Committee

That'd work out at around £4,500 for nothing.

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My criticism hasn't any politically based bias.

I just think it's wrong.

Also, unlike others I never posted about seventeen year olds being claimed for, as it's payable up to that age. Though presumably some councillors will now claim for their children, right up until that child reaches their seventeenth birthday.

An age when many other people will be out working, paying tax etc.

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When does this transparency start, fanfared in by the coalition, which will force councils to publish all their spending, including allowances, on their websites?

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It must be hard looking after a hungry teenager when you're living in abject poverty on expenses of say, oh I don't know, £31k per year plus County Council expenses.

I'm grateful that I'm not a parent of a child in their mid-teens. With all these cuts that are going on I'd be worried about running out of money to pay for the cotton wool.

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I understand that Hyndburn is lagging behind a lot of other councils in that respect and it doesn't surprise me at all. If you're claiming anything from the public purse then you should be forced to declare it.

For the record, I get about £300 per month which includes and IT allowance to cover anything I might need at home. By claiming that I forfeit my right to have a free council laptop or a council internet connection installed at home. I probably spend an average of between 2-3 hours every day on council business and consider the basic allowance to be satisfactory for the hours I put in.

I personally think that chairs of committees are overpaid for what is actually required and that there are too many of them. Certain colleagues of mine have forgone their chairmanship allowance and instead put it into their own ward fund.

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I would be interested to know how that works as it does not mention it in the Constitution.

It does say this though

It also does not mention an IT allowance that I can see so far. Maybe its in another bit I have yet to read.

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Neil I don't claim any travel allowance from home to Council and I am pretty certain that no other Labour councillor does either, but I will check with the rest of the Labour Group and get back to you.

Incidentally the law regarding eligibility to be a district councillor states that you must either live or work in the local authority in which you are a councillor.

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I did you expect you would but I wonder if anyone does

I did not know that, thank you.
Do we have any Councillors who only work in Hyndburn but dont live here that you know of?

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I don't know about that, but I find this more than outrageous.

The employment committee never met between April 2005 and May 2010, but a Tory councillor claimed an allowance every year for chairing the committee. This amounted to £2765.51.

Also the Judical Committee (External Funding) never met in 2008-2009, and 2010-2011, but the chair claimed an allowance both years of £1432.78 in 2008-2009 and £1484.00

I'm not suggesting any actual rules were broken, but the fact this is possible is very wrong.

If this abuse of allowances was going on in a private company, the boss would be threatening those doing it with the police, and charges of fraud.

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The allowance is for being chair not chairing any meetings. I agree it does not sound right.
Maybe as common plebs we are mis understanding something and the committee chairs still have a lot of extra work to do even if the committees don't actually have meetings.

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:rofl38:

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Having the title of Chairman/woman, and claiming expenses when there have been no actual meeting to chair, is morally wrong. Even if it isn't breaking the Council's own self-regulated rules.

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are these not meeting then ?

Judicial Sub-Committee (External Funding)
Listed in order of date below are the meetings held by the Judicial Sub-Committee (External Funding).

Thursday 16th September 2010
Friday 25th June 2010
Thursday 5th June 2008
Tuesday 10th May 2005

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You disappoint me, Nick. He's got you completely house trained in a few short months. Cllr Britcliffe has appointed himself chair of this committee and yet hasn't actually attended any meetings since 2005.

Check the minutes.

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Meeting the Chairman/woman was actually present at, and could therefore chair, for which they were so generously paid to do

;)

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without having a go back at you councillor moss you dont dissapoint anyone im sure however my reply was to the question that there were -

when there is obvious minutes prepared from a meeting

read what i said and dont presume you know what i am thinking

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Another issue about the child care allowance is that..aren't most Council meetings during the day now, except Full Council? If so, shouldn't the child involved be at school? (except holidays I know, but there cant be that many to claim so much allowance can there?

In 09/10, only 2 Councillors claimed Carers Allowance..Mr Britcliffe £204.00, A Kay £40.00 Surely there are more than 2 councillors with children?

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Nick...

Ken Moss mentioned Licensing Committee in his post #34, not Judicial Committee, which are 2 seperate items according to Council website. Please check your facts first.

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Are you not collecting your capital letter allowance?

Go on, take it.

It'll make it easier for all us non-politicos to read.

;)

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mr moss has got involved in my response to Garlinda who asked about Judical Committee (External Funding

that is fact

now i know why i dont bother on this site and just read things as there is obviously alot of crossed wires i do check my facts

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I think Cllr Whittaker was making a different point which we have all missed, I certainly wasn't trying to have a serious go at him.

Cllr Britcliffe does seem to be the only committee chair who claims expenses but doesn't actually do much chairing though. It may be worthy of wider scrutiny.

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If you think that is the case you could post more and help uncross them for us.

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So why no comment about Ken's point on Licensing Committee then if you are so defensive of your leader?

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We love a good councillor expenses scandal thread, here in Hyndburn.

Here are just a few, for some of our newer members, who might find them of interest.

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...and-45105.html

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...ses-54647.html

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...ces-54254.html

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...ses-45851.html

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...ise-13737.html

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Garlinda thanks you for attempting to provide some sort of defence.

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you seem to think i am on hear to defend someone or something

i have only stated that garlinda asked the question re Judical Committee (External Funding meetings not going ahead and i have seen the minutes of all the meetings and quoted these as per the council website

i am not saying anything else but there appeared to be meetings and was this information correct maybe i didnt explain myself correctly

i do apologise if i have offended anyone i think this web is excellent in getting information around the town but lets make it factual information please

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I have quoted nothing but facts in this thread...

Do Councillors claim expenses for attending PACT meetings too?

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You don't have to bother checking with me Joan.I didn't know you could claim for such a thing.Anyway I've got my bus pass now, I can get on bus for nowt.

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That ever helpful 'garlinda' did supply these facts...

;)

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We certainly don't in Rishton and I can't for one moment believe that any Labour councillor does across Hyndburn. I suspect that no Tory councillor does either because they aren't council business, they're technically public meetings. You can only claim expenses for council meetings which you have been specifically invited to or training that you have been offered.

Most council meetings are held during the day which is awkward for councillors who are tied into work hours and precludes many of the Labour group from being involved too heavily as it stands. The one meeting which definitely should be held in the evening is Full Council and yet has been repeatedly scheduled for 1.30pm by Cllr Britcliffe.

However, the remaining Full Council meetings for this electoral year are all at 7.00pm up till now.

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I don't see why you should be able to do this either. How many businesses allow staff to claim travel expenses to their place of work? which, effectively, is what Councillors could be classed as doing.

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If it fits in with this then they could

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I don't recall anyone who worked in the borough, but didn't live in the borough, who became a Councillor.Anyway I'm one of those who thinks you should certainly live the borough you represent.

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To be fair, lots of companies do pay travel expenses (to get to work), as part of salary packages.

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Partly, but as most meetings require an interruption to the working day it could be looked on as a sweetener that at least the petrol is covered. If you get elected you'll come to realise that you're quite often out of pocket by attending meetings if you work full-time.

I don't have too much of a problem with mileage expenses because the amounts are quite small and the officer who looks after the forms won't let you get away with anything which you are't entitled to.

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As far as I can see, PACT doesn't fall into any of those categories. It's purely down to the individual councillor whether they turn up or not.

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I can think of nothing worse than a Councillor asking for a PACT meeting or two, to be rearranged as they can't attend the originals, only to not turn up or submit apology's.

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The above figures were for County Council, Hyndburn Council's are (for carer's allowance)..

Peter Britcliffe £258.13
Jennet Liddle £526.08
Paul Gott £ 353.25

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How many Councillors also work Full Time and how many do it as a 'main' job role?

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Not sure how your payments work, Ken. When I was working full time and in Manchester .... was paid expenses for travel, however, if I was just going to the office and not out and about visiting customers, it was subject to Income Tax.

If this is the case with you .... short journeys, guess wouldn't be worth the time recording it, etc ? The town hall or Scaitcliffe house the workplace.

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I think the 09/10 Mileage expenses are worth reading too, with one Councillor claiming over £1000, another £800+ and the rest around £200.

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There's still a few of us who still work.Being a Councillor was never meant to be a full time job,not in Hyndburn anyway. We are not big enough for full time Councillors.

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There's nothing for visiting residents (which actually takes up the most time) but each visit to Scaitcliffe House or the Town Hall for a meeting to which I was specifically invited can be logged for me as an 8 mile round trip or £4.80. If I decide to drive up to Scaitcliffe to do some paperwork or see a group member then it doesn't count because it isn't an officially scheduled meeting and all expenses and allowances are taxable

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The vast majority of Labour councillors work full-time although I can't speak for the Conservatives.

It doesn't pay well enough to make a career as a backbencher and although it may be a comfortable ride in the Cabinet while you're in favour you are subject to the whims of the Leader and the electorate to keep you there.

Currently, anyone who looks like the might be a threat to the leadership of the Conservatives seems to be kept at arm's length.

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I certainly don't claim any allowances for attending PACT meetings.

Regarding Neil's post about forgoing allowances - I am chair of Church and Central Area Management Board. The Board does not receive any revenue money from HBC (The Area Management Councils do receive revenue) - I do not claim any allowance for being chair and asked for the money to be given to the Board, the allowance amounts to £756. Cllr Pam Barton, Cllr Malcolm Pritchard and Cllr Janet Storey also do the same and their Area Management Boards each receive the £756.

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I already know this happens and I have to wonder on its legality.
Who approved that the money could be spent that way. It was allocated for that purpose and is supposed to be your allowance.

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The legal team would have intervened before now if there was any question of it being illegal, they're pretty good on that score.

This is one expenses irregularity we should probably ignore for the good of the borough?

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Just because it's legal doesn't neccessarily mean it's moral or ethical.

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A point so categorically shown by the "Dishonourable Members" in the H of P !

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You're unsure of the morality of politicians giving up money for the good of their residents???

Strike a light, Margaret. I'm glad I don't live in your world.

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Don't twist my words - of course any self sacrifice for the common good is very moral. I just draw attention to the fact that legality and morality are neccessarily the same.

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I don't like ignoring irregularities, who knows what would happen with a nod and a wink next. The Council has a constitution that states how expenses can be claimed but it does not mention this in it. I have read the link from above and I can't find it anyway.

Why are the Area Management Boards not given any revenue budget but the Area Management Councils are?
What is the difference between the two?

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I understand that Neighbourhood Management Boards are to cease and be subsumed into the Area Councils. Graham Jones made rather a success of his local NMB and managed to secure more money than Peter Britcliffe could get his own hands on, leading to certain changes.

From speaking to councillors on Neighbourhood Management Boards they worked perfectly well. Another of the Britcliffe control-freak legacies.

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When I first started in politics you didn't get paid (only if you missed work) people became councillors for the right reasons in those days. I know times have moved on and its a different ball game now, but I don't think things have changed for the better:(

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I agree John. After all, no one forces people to put their name forward to stand as a councillor, it's their choice voluntarily. I appreciate that there may be some money lost if having time off work for meetings, but I know certain Councillors made it clear when they were elected that they could not and would not attend meetings before 6pm. I feel that too many people are doing it for their own gain rather than the good of the public, and these few give the honourable people a bad name.

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I wouldn't go as far as to say that Simon, I have always maintained that anybody who stands to be a councillor in this day and age deserves everything they get, and I mean all parties, you only have to see what goes on on here to realise that the general public are a very hard animal to please, after all party politics aside councillors on the whole do a very good job for the people they represent, you soon find out who are the poor ones they don't stay around long

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It would be illegal for the Council to make a payment to the Area Council and treat it as a Members Allowance payment.

However, the Council's constitution allows it to "vire" or transfer funds between budgets, up to prescribed levels. So it is quite in order to transfer money from the Members Allowances budget to the Area Council budget, which has apparently happened in this case.

As long as it is done transparently, then there is no problem.

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My estimate wasn't far wrong, although closer inspection of the allowances available has thrown up some interesting nuggets of info that I haven't previously looked at.

For example, thanks to endless posturing and prevaricating from Cllr Britcliffe (including arguing with the Mayor during a council session and refusing to acknowledge his authority, leading to a recess) it turns out that the four hours I was away from home allows me a meal allowance. Well, that chip butty wasn't free....

I also note that we spend over £35,000 on Scrutiny committee chairmen and vice-chairmen, another £17,900 on Planning committee members and quite a few thousand on committees which never sit.

Time to put my scrutiny hat on I think, but who watches the watchers?

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To my way of thinking this system is JA Rank to start with, we have 35 councillors and a handful of cabinet members the scrutiny panels, there was nothing wrong with the old committee system, more people were involved and there was better debate, or there should have been, change ain't always the best:(

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I've heard tell of these old committees and it didn't sound like a bad system at all.

I've no major beef with the current system although it's pretty disorganised and no one has a clue what each one is for. To my mind it would be better to for cabinet to go the whole hog and properly mirror Westminster's key positions and then have scrutiny committees for each one with proper cross-party debate. It's supposed to happen now but all the chairs and vice-chairs just happen to be supporters of the Leader.

The one thing that seriously needs to go is all these massive allowances for doing naff all. There's no extra work involved at all in being a chairman, it's the biggest case of 'jobs for the boys' that exists within HBC.

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Well Ken I've never seen the new system in operation, just read about it mainly on here, but if you think a change of colour at scaitcliffe house, would make wholesale chances your more naive than I though you were

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I don't think Cllr's should sit on scrutiny panels. It could be a job I would be good at :D

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You can claim £25 for that chip butty mate. I can't see anywhere as of yet the constitution states you need a receipt to claim it so you will be a few quid up :rolleyes::D

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You're living in the past.

Or at least under the illusion that Labour are in anyway red, the Conservatives are conserving, and the Liberals are liberal with their charms.

Ok scrub the last one.

The Lib Dems are political tarts.

Ready to jump in bed with anyone willing to pay the price.

:rolleyes:

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Na there ain't a Liberal I fancy:D

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...and what first attracted you to the job of being Peter Britcliffe's agent?

:rolleyes::D:eek:

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I worked under both systems, and whichever one you choose, you still end up with a nucleus of powerful councillors making all the decisions. Peter has his Cabinet, George Slynn had his "Chairs and Vice Chairs" who met behind closed doors to determine everything, especially the budget.

However, at least with committee meetings the back benchers were in on the debate prior to resolutions being passed, rather than sitting on their hands at the back of the room like naughty schoolchildren, listening to the cabinet debate. Yes they can get involved in scrutiny, but it is very much "after the event" when the impetus of the original decision is long since gone.

One of the other changes I've seen is the responsibility taken by cabinet members that usually fell in the past to chief officers. Nowadays, press releases always refer to the portfolio holder, rather than the Director of Health or the Director of Housing etc. Officers have gone from being high profile to being virtually anonymous. In the past, the Chief Executive was as well known locally, and quoted as often as, the Leader. Now, he or she is virtually anonymous.

I'm not saying that's a good or a bad thing, I'm just making the observation