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-   -   I want your desk cleared by 5.... (https://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f69/i-want-your-desk-cleared-by-5-a-58365.html)

Ken Moss 04-07-2011 10:42

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 916518)
Perhaps the looking like 'the hen coop, after the fox has been in', refers to the wrappings off the sandwiches councillors bring in.

Now that the butties are no longer delivered daily, on silver platters from Hurn's.

:rolleyes:

I miss those butties, they were truly delicious. It seems I'll just have to go and buy them from Hurn's now like every other prole.

There isn't even a comely serf to peel my grapes anymore.

Miles is such a monster.

garinda 04-07-2011 10:55

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Moss (Post 916519)
I miss those butties, they were truly delicious. It seems I'll just have to go and buy them from Hurn's now like every other prole.

There isn't even a comely serf to peel my grapes anymore.

Miles is such a monster.

You need to get your name down for one of those specially trained assistance dogs.

As well as helping the blind to cross the road, and alert the deaf when the phone rings, they also train poodles.

As well as doing everything you ever ask of them, they can also be trained to peel a grape for you.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p...hiteSmiley.gif

Ken Moss 04-07-2011 11:01

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 916523)
You need to get your name down for one of those specially trained assistance dogs.

As well as helping the blind to cross the road, and alert the deaf when the phone rings, they also train poodles.

As well as doing everything you ever ask of them, they can also be trained to peel a grape for you.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p...hiteSmiley.gif

I know of them but as I understand it they go muckraking when their master is away.

I don't fancy having to clean up my act just because I wouldn't get my hands dirty in the first place.

I'll peel my own grapes.

garinda 04-07-2011 11:07

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Moss (Post 916524)
I'll peel my own

Fair enough.

It takes all sorts.

;)

Margaret Pilkington 04-07-2011 11:22

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 916515)
I've posted before, the last time H.B.C. was Labour run I didn't live here. Although I visited often, and maintained close ties and an interest in the place I grew up.

The Labour party of today is nothing like the party of old. Just as the Conservative party isn't.

From my experience of living in places run by variously controlled councils, I've not found any particular party better than any other.

Liverpool - Labour, atrocious.
Lambeth - Labour, appalling.
Wandsworth - Conservative, marvellous.
Glasgow - Labour, fantastic.

Just because something was bad in the past doesn't necessarily mean history will repeat itself.

Especially because there's been such a massive political shift in various parties from what they once were.


This is a great post.(would give you Karma, but I have to spread it around a bit first) It tells it like it is.
Political allegiances have no place in the delivery and provision of local services.
I wish that all of the elected councillors(regardless of the flag they were elected under) could use their collective intellect/skills/abilities to make the borough a better place to live....instead of using their energy in in-fighting, name calling, etcetera. It takes away the dignity and respect that the electorate may have held for that person, when you hear of the childish behaviour and name calling.
Party politics needs to be removed from local elections.
If this were to happen then there would be far more real progress made.

lancsdave 04-07-2011 11:27

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 916526)
instead of using their energy in in-fighting, name calling, etcetera. It takes away the dignity and respect that the electorate may have held for that person, when you hear of the childish behaviour and name calling.


I think this is probably the biggest single reason why we have such low turnouts for elections in this country

Margaret Pilkington 04-07-2011 11:35

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lancsdave (Post 916527)
I think this is probably the biggest single reason why we have such low turnouts for elections in this country

I am sure you are right about that.

I don't care about what political party is in charge, as long as they can do the job.
The other thing about making local elections apolitical....it would do away with the mentality of spending what is in the coffers before the opposing lot get their hands on it. This makes for better distribution/use of scarce resources.

Free local elections from party political bias and we would have much better services because there would be no back biting, name calling and the like.

I have lived in the borough all of my life, but I cannot remember what it was like before PB and his team ran the place....but I cannot forget how PB and his cronies spent money in ridiculous ways...ways that have left the borough worse off.

Neil 04-07-2011 11:39

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Moss (Post 916488)
On a personal level, in Rishton we have now confirmed the demolition of a row of unsightly derelicts which have dragged an area down for 10 years and the council will be recouping that money from the owners. The council is not there to hand out money simply when people come a-knocking and all that has been abolished as well.

The news of the demolition is really good and its excellent that those accountable will pay and not the rest of use, well done.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Moss (Post 916488)
Other 'good news' will be reported to the public when something concrete has been put in place, not some hypothetical votewinner which may never happen or figure which has been plucked out of the air in order to sound good.

That is good news as well, so much can be done with relatively small amounts of tax payers money when put up as match for external funding.
That will hopefully leave you more money for the projects that are hard or impossible to seek external funding for.

cashman 04-07-2011 11:40

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Whilst i agree it certainly contributes, meself i think the biggest reason fer low turnouts,is the penny has finally dropped n folk realise that "None" of the major parties give a toss about the lot of the ordinary voter.:)

Margaret Pilkington 04-07-2011 12:05

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
And that, Cashy, is why political bias should be removed from local elections.

It is expected that the people who wish to be councillors have a desire to serve the community.......do they really need a political banner to enable then to do so?......My own feeling is that they don't, and that political ties just get in the way of these people doing a good job.
If I wanted to be a councillor, I could not align myself to any political party........OK, I could be an independent, but in my view people(the electorate) see independents as indecisive, weak as water and because they are not aligned to any of the major political parties, they haven't much clout.

Neil 04-07-2011 13:08

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 916533)
......OK, I could be an independent, but in my view people(the electorate) see independents as indecisive, weak as water and because they are not aligned to any of the major political parties, they haven't much clout.

You could go half way then and join the Independents of Hyndburn but I have no idea at all what the point in that is.

Margaret Pilkington 04-07-2011 13:41

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
No Neil, I don't think I will bother.

jaysay 04-07-2011 18:03

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 916533)
And that, Cash, is why political bias should be removed from local elections.

It is expected that the people who wish to be councillors have a desire to serve the community.......do they really need a political banner to enable then to do so?......My own feeling is that they don't, and that political ties just get in the way of these people doing a good job.
If I wanted to be a councillor, I could not align myself to any political party........OK, I could be an independent, but in my view people(the electorate) see independents as indecisive, weak as water and because they are not aligned to any of the major political parties, they haven't much clout.

Depoliticising local councils has always been a thing I have passionately believed in for many years, but I'm afraid that will never happen, especially when the former leader of the labour group often branded every Tory Councillor as a wast of space. As I have often said there are good hardworking councillors in all parties, I might not always agree with Ken Bernard and Joan but from what I have heard and indeed read in the local press they do a fine job for there own areas, that is all the public ask of their elected representatives. Peter Britcliffe has come in for some tremendous stick on her, some of it totally justified, but ask most people in Ossy who their councillor is, they will say PB irrespective of which ward they live, because like it or not over the last 28 years he's worked bloody hard for Ossy and he HAS made a difference, when all's said and done that's why most people go into politics, and if they don't they shouldn't be there in the first place.

jaysay 04-07-2011 18:12

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Moss (Post 916514)
'The grapevine', what a load of old twaddle. Do yourself a favour, call a spade a spade. If you mean that there has been a cull of staff then just ask your little grape to do a bit of research further along the vine. There's been a cull of wasteful spending, that's all.

Just ask your little grape how it was expected that £2m could be promised to the residents of Woodnook and the same £2m could also be intended for Township Regeneration proposals?

You're an intelligent man, wake up and take off the Tory blinkers. I'm a Labour Councillor and I'm not blind to Labour's faults in the past, it doesn't mean we all have to rigidly to them in the future.

The grapevine Kenneth old chum is where I get a lot of my info these days, you have to remember that when I was politically active I had contact with a hell of a lot of officers at HBC and from time to time still here from some of them, I haven't heard from one member of the Tory Party since May 5th what so ever. I know you think I have a hot line to PB on my desk but that is so far from the truth, the only things I here about him or anything else for that matter is on here or in the press, except the odd call from old friends.;)

Margaret Pilkington 04-07-2011 18:49

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
John, there is no disputing that PB has worked hard for his Ward,(but isn't that what he is paid to do...no medals for doing your job, even if you do it well) but it has to be said that he has got a it above himself(and that is an understatement).

No man(or woman for that matter) is bigger or better than the council they work for....and PB has demonstrated in so many ways that he thinks he is the big cheese.
Big cheeses go mouldy...and some of them find their way onto the spike of a mousetrap.

jaysay 04-07-2011 19:08

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 916589)
John, there is no disputing that PB has worked hard for his Ward,(but isn't that what he is paid to do...no medals for doing your job, even if you do it well) but it has to be said that he has got a it above himself(and that is an understatement).

No man(or woman for that matter) is bigger or better than the council they work for....and PB has demonstrated in so many ways that he thinks he is the big cheese.
Big cheeses go mouldy...and some of them find their way onto the spike of a mousetrap.

Quite agree Margaret, In fact there should actually be a limit to the length of time these positions are held no matter how good or bad a job you've made of it. The Yanks have the right idea the president can only serve to 4 year terms max as can state governors, think the same should apply here

g jones 06-07-2011 00:11

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 916580)
Depoliticising local councils has always been a thing I have passionately believed in for many years, but I'm afraid that will never happen, especially when the former leader of the labour group often branded every Tory Councillor as a wast of space.

I do not think that and have never said such a thing. What i have said on many occasions is that PB is one of the hardest working ward councillors. That Douglas Heyes is too. Add Brian Roberts, Judith Addison and believe it or not Marlene Haworth. These people are committed to their areas.

However the Council has a huge budget and the main reason for being a councillor is not to ensure a new park bench every now and again, but to run a £30m business and remember this is about jobs and prosperity, not charity with the constant flow of £100 cheques.

In that respect I stand by the view that the last lot, for whatever reason were incapable and that there are incapable Labour councils too.

Whatever the faults of political alliances, anything less would be a disaster. Last year the three independents pretty much had three opposite views on every subject "because independence is their byword". Without teamwork and cooperation and with the right of veto at any time it would be chaos and carnage. Just look at Lancaster. A new leader every two months, a new cabinet every 4 months, can't agree on policies, have no way at all of making progress with everyone reserving the right to vote against.

Worse; The Council is a huge business and needs to be divided up into about 14 leaders taking responsibility over different services. If each disagrees, how can the others make progress. If you start without a basis of compromise and direction how can you know you aren't wasting your time or that someone else is doing what you don't want in another position? You end up with the grotesque position of just wasting time and money on a grand scale and the whole Council collapses. You also end up inward looking as each independent fights for votes for a position whereas a leader nominates and the group is outward looking.

entwisi 06-07-2011 06:49

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

but to run a £30m business and remember this is about jobs and prosperity, not charity with the constant flow of £100 cheques.
To me the above is key, we ( Hyndburn) are a massive company and yet we let it be run by people who by the very way they are in position have no experience of running such an enterprise. To control such a budget efficiently cannot be done in parallel with party political arguemnts, personality clashes or any other antagonistic behaviour. You need clear direction from a strong Leader and by that I mean people with proven Leadership qualities not someone who happens to be best of a bad bunch.

I would rather a properly recruited, experienced business minded individual run the council than the current mechanism, supported by the best people to do the job in each area of specialisation. Contracts can easily be short term defined length with the people of the town voting if we think they have done a good job and should be renewed.

jaysay 06-07-2011 08:53

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by g jones (Post 916890)
I do not think that and have never said such a thing. What i have said on many occasions is that PB is one of the hardest working ward councillors. That Douglas Heyes is too. Add Brian Roberts, Judith Addison and believe it or not Marlene Haworth. These people are committed to their areas.

However the Council has a huge budget and the main reason for being a councillor is not to ensure a new park bench every now and again, but to run a £30m business and remember this is about jobs and prosperity, not charity with the constant flow of £100 cheques.

In that respect I stand by the view that the last lot, for whatever reason were incapable and that there are incapable Labour councils too.

Whatever the faults of political alliances, anything less would be a disaster. Last year the three independents pretty much had three opposite views on every subject "because independence is their byword". Without teamwork and cooperation and with the right of veto at any time it would be chaos and carnage. Just look at Lancaster. A new leader every two months, a new cabinet every 4 months, can't agree on policies, have no way at all of making progress with everyone reserving the right to vote against.

Worse; The Council is a huge business and needs to be divided up into about 14 leaders taking responsibility over different services. If each disagrees, how can the others make progress. If you start without a basis of compromise and direction how can you know you aren't wasting your time or that someone else is doing what you don't want in another position? You end up with the grotesque position of just wasting time and money on a grand scale and the whole Council collapses. You also end up inward looking as each independent fights for votes for a position whereas a leader nominates and the group is outward looking.

You have a very very selective memory Graham, if I remember rightly I once invited you to make those claims face to face with Brian Walmsley

g jones 06-07-2011 15:52

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
What I said has always been my view and said frequently in public. I must have had a few slurps and was misinterpreted!

jaysay 06-07-2011 17:40

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by g jones (Post 916996)
What I said has always been my view and said frequently in public. I must have had a few slurps and was misinterpreted!

In writing on here:rolleyes:

JCB 06-07-2011 17:55

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by entwisi (Post 916905)
To me the above is key, we ( Hyndburn) are a massive company and yet we let it be run by people who by the very way they are in position have no experience of running such an enterprise.

Hyndburn is not a massive company , it is the home of the people who live here .

I am using words similar to those of J.B.Priestley when he said , " Britain is not an economic enterprise . It is the home of the British people . "

Those who base their politics on Marxist or capitalist ideas will always see money as the key element within our society .

But people , not money , are our wealth .

Margaret Pilkington 06-07-2011 18:58

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Colin, I agree with the fact that people are our wealth.......but money is generated (in various ways) to look after the people of the borough.......and we need the best people to manage that resource.

It is easy to see how party politics can be counter productive in the use and distribution of precious resources......punch and judy politics are no servant to the people of Hyndburn
I would very much like to see local government de-politicised....get everyone working together for the common good of the community......not back biting and in-fighting because they see themselves as different...purely on the banner they travel under.

In local elections I never consider which party someone is aligned to........I only look at their track record for doing the job in hand....but I know that many people are blinded to who is best for the job by party politics.......foolish, but that is only my opinion.

JCB 06-07-2011 20:23

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 917029)
It is easy to see how party politics can be counter productive in the use and distribution of precious resources......punch and judy politics are no servant to the people of Hyndburn
I would very much like to see local government de-politicised....get everyone working together for the common good of the community......not back biting and in-fighting because they see themselves as different...purely on the banner they travel under.

That's my view also , Margaret . I know some will say it's too idealistic , but it's worth working towards .

Even at the national level I see no clear water between the main parties . Having no major policy differences they resort to squabbling about petty matters and making personal attacks .

As for Hyndburn , what is the point of party labels ? I am sure that a body of independently minded men and women , elected because of their desire for the common good , would manage to work together , and do so effectively .

Margaret Pilkington 06-07-2011 20:28

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
I don't see it being idealistic..but I do see it as being realistic.
All the councillors, regardless of their party, are in the job because they believe they have the skills to make the borough better in some way...and the electorate of their ward must think so too, or they would not have been elected.
I cannot abide the petty squabbles and point scoring....it takes energy and dynamism away from their reason for being on the council...and their energies would be better used in solving the problems of the borough.

Eric 06-07-2011 20:48

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 917029)
Colin, I agree with the fact that people are our wealth.......but money is generated (in various ways) to look after the people of the borough.......and we need the best people to manage that resource.

It is easy to see how party politics can be counter productive in the use and distribution of precious resources......punch and judy politics are no servant to the people of Hyndburn
I would very much like to see local government de-politicised....get everyone working together for the common good of the community......not back biting and in-fighting because they see themselves as different...purely on the banner they travel under.

In local elections I never consider which party someone is aligned to........I only look at their track record for doing the job in hand....but I know that many people are blinded to who is best for the job by party politics.......foolish, but that is only my opinion.

You are dead right, hon. And a "de-politicised" council does work. At least, it works here. Our city council (it's a small city: 117, 000) oversees policing, fire department, ambulance service, sewer, water, natural gas, sports facilities (hockey rinks, football fields etc.), garbage pick up, road maintainece, city transit, and a lot more. And there is no party politics at City Hall.:theband: And for the life of me, I can't see why there should be.:confused:

jaysay 07-07-2011 09:05

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric (Post 917060)
You are dead right, hon. And a "de-politicised" council does work. At least, it works here. Our city council (it's a small city: 117, 000) oversees policing, fire department, ambulance service, sewer, water, natural gas, sports facilities (hockey rinks, football fields etc.), garbage pick up, road maintenance, city transit, and a lot more. And there is no party politics at City Hall.:theband: And for the life of me, I can't see why there should be.:confused:

The reason it won't work here Eric is the fact that its too far in grained into our way of life. Lets just say that next may HBC were to become totally independent from politics, and elections would be held to select new representatives, you would probably find that those people who served under a political banner would still be elected to the new council and there would still be the divides on both personal and political levels, think its called human nature;)

Margaret Pilkington 07-07-2011 10:07

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
John...it wouldn't matter if elected members had previously fought a ward under a political banner.
The main point is, they would have been elected...chosen by the people for their skills and talents in managing some aspect of life for the borough...rather than being chosen just because they are Labour/Conservative/Independent.
There would be no political banner getting in the way of them doing a good job(or precluding them from being elected if they had the right skill/talents)...and no opportunity to sling mud...backbite purely on the grounds of their political banner.

They could all pull in the same direction for once instead of seeing other councillors as the enemy.

It has to be a better way.........and change of this sort has to be looked at, considered and tried before it is condemned out of hand.

It might even reduce the apathy in local politics...because I am pretty sure there are many people who don't vote or get involved with local politics, because of the antics of the national political parties.

jaysay 07-07-2011 10:18

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 917128)
John...it wouldn't matter if elected members had previously fought a ward under a political banner.
The main point is, they would have been elected...chosen by the people for their skills and talents in managing some aspect of life for the borough...rather than being chosen just because they are Labour/Conservative/Independent.
There would be no political banner getting in the way of them doing a good job(or precluding them from being elected if they had the right skill/talents)...and no opportunity to sling mud...backbite purely on the grounds of their political banner.

They could all pull in the same direction for once instead of seeing other councillors as the enemy.

It has to be a better way.........and change of this sort has to be looked at, considered and tried before it is condemned out of hand.

Your missing my point Margaret, if the council were to go independent and, as I suspect, all the usual suspects are elected although now independent, do you actually think that old prejudices would just go away and it would be just one big happy family all working together for the good of the community:rolleyes: it ain't going to happen believe me, you have two or three totally different points of view on what is wrong and what is the right way to do things, the once Labour members wouldn't agree with once Tory members or independent, it just wouldn't happen, they'd still be fighting in lumps, but instead of being parties it would be cliques one to the left and one to the right:D

Margaret Pilkington 07-07-2011 10:39

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
No John, I am not missing your point......the elected candidates would not be independent at all. They would be unsponsored by any political party, which would open the way for people who have no political affiliations to stand for election...and rather than people being elected on which political dogmas and ideologies they support, they would instead be judged on their ability to serve the electorate of their own particular area.

It may be that some of the people already on the council would still be on the council, but this would be on their ability to do the job rather than which party they supported.
Council business is no place to score political points, and there is no room for petty egotisitical arguments.......it is a place where the business of the borough should be conducted with professionalism and dignity.
You are always going to have people with differing views, but if these views are not complicated by political dogmas, then compromise must surely be achieved in a more equitable way.

I have been to many meetings in my career....meeting where ideas and ideals were very different. People work out their differences and make compromises in an adult and civilised fashion.........are you telling me that councillors can't work in this manner?
And is this because of their political dogmas?...because, if that is what you are saying, then it should not be like that, and you have justified my view that things must change.
I have met people who say 'that won't work'....and frequently this is because they don't want to try it, they are afraid of change, and they really don't want it to work.

Benipete 07-07-2011 11:06

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
I take your point Margaret but I can't see how 40 or so individuals squabbling over their own wards will be of any help.

Margaret Pilkington 07-07-2011 12:15

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
It depends on why they are squabbling...whether the motives are due to political influences(which I suspect in many intances would be the case).If labour says it day...the conservatives would say it is night.....without even looking outside.
These are unwanted and unwarranted arguments. The prime concern of every elected councillor should be to make the borough better in any way that this can be achieved...if this is not how they want to work, then they should not be on the council in the first place.

If we have a council that is non political then maybe some of the barriers to progress would be removed...there would, of course, still be some differences of opinion....but most adults meet these every day in their working lives and manage to find equitable compromises.

The other thing is...if we take political sponsorship out of local government then maybe people who have no political allegiance(like myself) would be enabled to be more active in the business of the borough.
Not that I want to dabble in local government.

g jones 07-07-2011 12:20

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Inevitably if you had 35 independents they would have to form two or three teams to manage affairs and each other and you would end up back at a political structure we have now.

Independents is a utopian ideal that if it did exist would end up in grotesque unworkable chaos. Which indepndent would lead on which service and what if they had extreme views? What happend when another lead councillor has the opposite view and the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing? And if they do what they are doing but demand no compromise 'because they are independent and sticking to the will of their constituents'?

It would be a charter for political gridlock. Local Govermment needs people working together and people who share a simialr sense of direction in order for the wheels to turn.

Margaret Pilkington 07-07-2011 12:27

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Graham...I didn't mean independents in the sense of the independent political party.
I am talking about a consortium of councillors........and without political allegiances, they would work more like a board room works.
People would have responsibilities, according to their experiences,their skills and their talents.

I don't think party politics enhances local government. It gets in the way of cohesive working.

Never mind. I will just have to go on hoping that in some dim and distant future...when I am no longer around....someone will see that perhaps change is required, and that this cohesive working is better for everyone...until then, I suppose the petty squabbles will detract from the real work that needs doing in the borough.
C'est la vie.

garinda 07-07-2011 12:45

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 917158)
It depends on why they are squabbling...whether the motives are due to political influences(which I suspect in many intances would be the case).If labour says it day...the conservatives would say it is night.....without even looking outside.
These are unwanted and unwarranted arguments. The prime concern of every elected councillor should be to make the borough better in any way that this can be achieved...if this is not how they want to work, then they should not be on the council in the first place.

If we have a council that is non political then maybe some of the barriers to progress would be removed...there would, of course, still be some differences of opinion....but most adults meet these every day in their working lives and manage to find equitable compromises.

The other thing is...if we take political sponsorship out of local government then maybe people who have no political allegiance(like myself) would be enabled to be more active in the business of the borough.
Not that I want to dabble in local government.

I'm afraid some peoples' political blinkers have actually been welded to their heads, and have now rusted fast.

Anyone who joined a mainstream political party thirty plus years ago, knows the party of today is a million miles away from the party they joined as a new member.

Yet still they'll blindly support 'em. Caring not about how they've changed.

Just change political party for football team, and you can start to understand the unquestioning loyalty.

Mainstream party politics has changed, it's just the followers who remain the same.

Blinkered.

garinda 07-07-2011 12:47

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by g jones (Post 917163)
Inevitably if you had 35 independents they would have to form two or three teams to manage affairs and each other and you would end up back at a political structure we have now.

Independents is a utopian ideal that if it did exist would end up in grotesque unworkable chaos. Which indepndent would lead on which service and what if they had extreme views? What happend when another lead councillor has the opposite view and the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing? And if they do what they are doing but demand no compromise 'because they are independent and sticking to the will of their constituents'?

It would be a charter for political gridlock. Local Govermment needs people working together and people who share a simialr sense of direction in order for the wheels to turn.

Yet Eric informs us it works perfectly well in Canada.

Margaret Pilkington 07-07-2011 13:23

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by g jones (Post 917163)

Local Govermment needs people working together and people who share a simialr sense of direction in order for the wheels to turn.

Something I heartily agree with.
Is the good of the borough not a similar sense of direction?
It is isn't, then it should be...and that should be all that is required.

Jim Procter 07-07-2011 13:55

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
The one talking the most sense on this topic is MP from Clayton-le-Moors.In my independent opinion that is.

jaysay 07-07-2011 18:02

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by g jones (Post 917163)
Inevitably if you had 35 independents they would have to form two or three teams to manage affairs and each other and you would end up back at a political structure we have now.

Independents is a utopian ideal that if it did exist would end up in grotesque unworkable chaos. Which indepndent would lead on which service and what if they had extreme views? What happend when another lead councillor has the opposite view and the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing? And if they do what they are doing but demand no compromise 'because they are independent and sticking to the will of their constituents'?

It would be a charter for political gridlock. Local Govermment needs people working together and people who share a simialr sense of direction in order for the wheels to turn.

Well at least that's something we can agree on Graham, totally independent council would be fine something I've always said but its just not practical and unsustainable, and unworkable

Eric 07-07-2011 18:19

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
City of Kingston, Ontario, Canada - City Councillors

Here's our bunch of councillors. Notice that there are only twelve of them, plus the Mayor, who is elected at large. And all in all they do not a bad job; and they are an accessible group. And I don't believe that they see themselves as "Independents", or anything other than City Councillors. I haven't read all the profiles, but I'm pretty sure there is no mention of party affilliation.

JCB 07-07-2011 18:40

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by g jones (Post 917163)

Independents is a utopian ideal that if it did exist would end up in grotesque unworkable chaos.

It would be a charter for political gridlock. Local Govermment needs people working together and people who share a simialr sense of direction in order for the wheels to turn.

I know the Orkney Islands are a long way off , but they have one of the councils in the UK which is controlled by non-party politicians .

I am not aware that their council is in grotesque unworkable chaos or political gridlock .

Maybe they are just mature enough to be united in serving the interests of the people , and can discuss and debate issues , reaching decisions that are advantageous to the islanders .

Benipete 07-07-2011 18:54

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric (Post 917257)
City of Kingston, Ontario, Canada - City Councillors

Here's our bunch of councillors. Notice that there are only twelve of them, plus the Mayor, who is elected at large. And all in all they do not a bad job; and they are an accessible group. And I don't believe that they see themselves as "Independents", or anything other than City Councillors. I haven't read all the profiles, but I'm pretty sure there is no mention of party affilliation.

Sounds good to me.Twelve Sensible people and a Mayor.Instead of 35 imbeciles fighting their own political corner.:eek: It will never happen here,The trough is to deep.:(:D:D

g jones 07-07-2011 19:40

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Mayors are different. All the power is put in one person. He chooses whoever he likes. It is a model that many here are considering and I would say this, it encourages voters to think locally when voting.

Of course elect a bad one and it's the reverse. It also damages the ward based councillor whose say is next to nothing and results in a democratic deficit.

The current system means your councillor has more power to change things as part of a team. Under the Mayors system descent can result in the sack.

Margaret Pilkington 07-07-2011 19:47

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Then maybe we should make the trough a saucer instead.

When people say it will never happen here, they close their minds to the possibilities, and stop looking for solutions to problems.......and the problems(certainly with the last administration - can't comment on this new one because it is too new) were that some of the councillors...notably the leader saw themselves as bigger than the needs of the borough.
It was all top show.......or as my mother used to say...silk frock and no knickers.

It just seems to me that we learn nothing from experience...we, the electorate of the borough will put up with the same old, same old...because it is the easiest option.....don't whatever you do rock the boat or muddy the water...it will upset the political parties......they have to look like they are worth something.

But hey, what the hell do I know??????

Eric 07-07-2011 20:47

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by g jones (Post 917275)
Mayors are different. All the power is put in one person. He chooses whoever he likes. It is a model that many here are considering and I would say this, it encourages voters to think locally when voting.

Of course elect a bad one and it's the reverse. It also damages the ward based councillor whose say is next to nothing and results in a democratic deficit.

The current system means your councillor has more power to change things as part of a team. Under the Mayors system descent can result in the sack.

All depends on what mayoral system one uses. You seem to be looking at a system in which the mayor is, well, dictator. This need not be the case. Our mayor is the chairman of the council. As such, he doesn't vote unless there is a tie vote. He can, and does participate in council discussion. Our ward-based councillors cannot be sacked. They represent a ward, and if they have a master, it is not the mayor, it is their constituents. I realise that our city councillors have political beliefs. They, no doubt, vote on issues according to their affiliation. Our Mayor, Mark Gerretsen, is the son of John Gerretsen, who represents Kingston and the Islands in the Ontario legislature for the Liberal Party. So, he is possibly Liberal.:confused::D The councillor in my ward is Jim Neill. Jim is a member of the New Democratic Party (Labour). He has run for office under that banner. However, there is no official, regimented party affilliation. Jim works for the residents of Williamsville, not for the NDP.

Tealeaf 07-07-2011 20:53

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Eric,

What you doing fooling around on here this afternoon? Surely you should have your eyes glued to the TV screen, cheering on the live pictures of Their Royal Highnesses, The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge, as they make their stately progress through their soon-to-be north american dominion?

Eric 07-07-2011 22:06

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tealeaf (Post 917296)
Eric,

What you doing fooling around on here this afternoon? Surely you should have your eyes glued to the TV screen, cheering on the live pictures of Their Royal Highnesses, The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge, as they make their stately progress through their soon-to-be north american dominion?

Hey, party'd with them in Ottawa on July 1, Canada Day:theband:. Now they are in Calgary, a few time zones west of here. Their stopover in Slave Lake guarantees the future of the monarchy in Canada. Folks in Quebec City were even waving Union Jacks:eek: That British Royals should get such a welcome in the heartland of Seperatisme is unbelievable. There is absolutely no doubt that they made a hit in Canada. And, the Duke of Cambridge is a decent helicopter pilot, and he seems to enjoy "water birding."

cashman 07-07-2011 22:13

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Well thats just convinced me Eric. yeh will sup wi anybody.:D;)

Eric 07-07-2011 22:16

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Prince William performs water landings in Canada | The Jakarta Post

Oh, this is water birding. Interesting .... never read the Jakarta Post before. I wonder if they deliver in Kingston??????

Eric 07-07-2011 22:17

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 917309)
Well thats just convinced me Eric. yeh will sup wi anybody.:D;)

This is true, bud. As long as they can pay their round:D:D:D

DaveinGermany 08-07-2011 19:15

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
It's just the Canadian way Cashy, so laid back they're virtually comatose, I mean, if they were friendly enough to accept me & thousands of other British troops being embarrassing in their Towns (all in the past I hasten to add :D), what a lovely bunch of people. :)

jaysay 09-07-2011 08:57

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany (Post 917459)
It's just the Canadian way Cashy, so laid back they're virtually comatose, I mean, if they were friendly enough to accept me & thousands of other British troops being embarrassing in their Towns (all in the past I hasten to add :D), what a lovely bunch of people. :)

And you have to remember Dave that Eric's been there about 40 years too:D:D

DaveinGermany 09-07-2011 10:27

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 917596)
And you have to remember Dave that Eric's been there about 40 years too:D:D

So he's been Canadized then. :)

jaysay 09-07-2011 10:28

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany (Post 917634)
So he's been Canadized then. :)

You can take the lad out of Clayton but you can't take Clayton out of the lad:D:D

DaveinGermany 09-07-2011 10:42

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 917635)
You can take the lad out of Clayton :D:D

No you can't ! There's no "D", So you'd be left with Cyton ! :D ;)

Eric 09-07-2011 20:17

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 917635)
You can take the lad out of Clayton but you can't take Clayton out of the lad:D:D

I often think of what my life would have been like if I had stayed put. Right up until the time I got on the plane (yes, we had them back then;;) it was a BEA turbo prop, a "Viscount" maybe, for a connecting flight to London) I was in two minds. When I saw the big red maple leaf on the tail plane of the DC 10, everything started to seem, well, foreign. But last time I flew Air Canada out of Heathrow, and saw the same emblem, I knew I was on my way home.

garinda 09-07-2011 21:52

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric (Post 917735)
I often think of what my life would have been like if I had stayed put. Right up until the time I got on the plane (yes, we had them back then;;) it was a BEA turbo prop, a "Viscount" maybe, for a connecting flight to London) I was in two minds. When I saw the big red maple leaf on the tail plane of the DC 10, everything started to seem, well, foreign. But last time I flew Air Canada out of Heathrow, and saw the same emblem, I knew I was on my way home.

That's heart warming.

Even though Canada's your home, your still one of us too.

Home is where your heart is, but also where your roots are.

You're like one of those fancy plants they produce.

A red rose, grafted on to a maple tree.

:D

jaysay 10-07-2011 09:24

Re: I want your desk cleared by 5....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 917763)
That's heart warming.

Even though Canada's your home, your still one of us too.

Home is where your heart is, but also where your roots are.

You're like one of those fancy plants they produce.

A red rose, grafted on to a maple tree.

:D

Na I think the real reason Eric has made Canada his home is there ain't to muck Moose hunting on Wilsons playing fields:D


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