Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

'John Cridland, director-general of the business group, said that a number of proposed regulations from Brussels would hold back London's leading business sectors.'

'In a strongly-worded speech at the CBI's London dinner, he said: "The likely effect of many of Brussels' current proposals will be to damage the UK's prospects for growth. Nowhere is this more acutely the case than for professional and financial services, which are being bombarded with unwarranted regulation."

EU financial regulation could harm UK growth, CBI warns - Telegraph

Every day there are more and more stories illustrating just how damaged this country is, and will continue to be so, through membership of the E.U.

As stated earlier, 'yes' voters please feel free to post evidence of how Britian benefits from being ruled by Brussells. Because at the moment all those E.U. 'good news' reports seem to be eluding the greater majority of us.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

I heard on the TV this morning that a lot of Greeks are asking to come out of the Euro and go back to the Drachma, then devalue it, something on the lines of "this will not effect the Drachma in the pocket or bank account of ordinary people", now where have I heard that before:rolleyes:

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

'A Government statement to MPs yesterday made clear that no national poll will be held in Britain over plans for a £380billion emergency fund designed to support Greece and other debt-laden eurozone nations

MPs are now pinning their hopes on a crucial Commons vote expected next month on whether to hold a national in-or-out referendum on Britain’s EU membership.

The debate is being lined up by the Commons Backbench Business Committee in response to a series of petitions on the issue including one backed by 373,000 Daily Express readers as part of this newspaper’s crusade for Britain to quit the EU.'
Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: Public vote on EU rescue is ruled out

We live in hope.

That one day this madness ends.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

All the more reason to get out, sadly succesive Uk governments & Politicians have willingly supported this systematic abuse & since nobody has got the balls to back the UK populace certainly not craven Cameron & the spineless Clegg. As to Labour they weren't any better in fact they took us further into this European cesspool so it will sadly continue to impact on the hard working tax paying British people, absolutely disgusting & unjustifiable.

Taxpayers' millions lost by EU-funded regional schemes - Telegraph

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Ya should have PM'd that to BD;)

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Bad news.

UK economy brought to grinding halt by euro crisis - Telegraph


Good news. In that it at least gives hope this madness could end, if people are allowed a say in their destiny.

MPs could vote on EU referendum within weeks - Telegraph


'If' it happens, it'll be interesting to see if our elected representative uses their vote to reflect the overwhelming support there is for a referendum locally.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Don't hold your breath Rindi:rolleyes:

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

No way.

But until people are allowed their say a referendum on E.U. membership, I shall continue saying this is very wrong, until I draw my last breath.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

An interesting artice about E.U. membership, and possible alternatives, 'if' we are allowed a referendum on the issue.

EU referendum: UK should be with Europe, but not of it | Mail Online

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

aint gonna happen, imho, mores the pity.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

An interesting idea, but sadly it won't come to pass. Our politicians are far more concerned with their own well-being than they are with the electorate's. The more powers that are handed over to Brussels, the less work they have to do for their £60,000+ a year. And of course there's always the chance at the end of a domestic political career of a nice, comfy berth on the Brussels gravy train. Just look at that utterly useless toerag Kinnock and his missus. :rolleyes:

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Not forgetting the kids:rolleyes:

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

In the 1975 referendum I voted for the UK to withdraw from the EEC .
We had been a member for just over a year and the effects of withdrawal would have been negligible .

Now many years later we are in a very different EU , but over those years our governments have accepted the developments that have taken place drawing us closer , politically and economically , to the countries of the EU.

I am not interested with "possible alternatives" to EU membership .
I want to see some concrete , feasible alternatives which we could be sure of being implemented if we withdrew . Until I am convinced of such alternatives my vote in any future referendum , which I don't think we will get anyway , would this time be to stay in the EU .

It's a case of better the devil you know . I am not prepared to see the future of my country put in jeopardy because of some knee-jerk reaction I may have to some of the stupidity that at times emanates from the bureaucrats of the EU .

And let's be clear . Since the Council of Europe with 47 member states was formed in 1949 we have been members . The best known bodies of the Council of Europe are the European Court of Human Rights which enforces the European Convention on Human Rights . These are entirely separate from the EU , and if we have any gripes about the former bodies , we have to know that they are not attributable to the EU .

So if viable alternatives , and that means they would have to be practicable and workable , are put forward I would be prepared to judge them . Until they are I see no other option other than staying with the present imperfect set up that we have now .

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

That's a very balanced argument JCB

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

A viable alternative is to return to how exactly how we managed before 1973, prior to joining the then Common Market, an economic trade alliance.

We were a major economic nation for centuries, with no binding ties.

Switzerland and Noway still trade with Europe, have strong economies, and are not members of the United States of Europe.

Soon, when countries like Turkey become E.U. members, it will be too late for this country to have our own independent national government ever again.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

The problem lies, untying all the red tape accumulated over the last 36 years Rindi, don't think its quite as simple as just waking up one morning and saying we're free we're on our own again

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Besides, before deciding the pros and cons of E.U. membership, first we must fight to be allowed our say in a referendum.

Because it's a fact not one Briton has ever had the right to so far, and voted that they wanted the U.K. to be a member of the E.U.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

No it won't be simple.

That doesn't mean, if the majority of people voted to leave, it shouldn't happen.

If we remain members we will become more, and more entangled.

As Wynonie pointed out, let the M.P.'s we elect, earn their generous salaries, and govern the country, once again.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

That may prove harder that actually leaving the E. U.:rolleyes:

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

I don't think anyone is fool enough to think that we can wake up one morning and be shut of the EU.

Does that mean we should continue with something that is sucking the country dry, because it would be difficult to remove ourselves?

Do you truly want Brussels to be making legislation for us to follow in this country?
Do you want them taking money from us hand over fist?
Do you want to pay to shore up the economies in other corrupt countries.?

It isn't just us in this country who feel disillusioned by this giant legislative machine....this money pit.

The EU itself is a bloated and corrupt organisation which has not had a budget signed off in the last 14 years. There is no transparency about how it is run and managed.
MP's don't want to see us leave the EU....they see that golden glow from the pots of money they hope to earn when they are no longer at the Palace of Westminster. And on the subject of MP's...if Brussels are going to be making all the rules then why do we continue to pay MP's £60,000+ per annum for non existent work?

I personally, think we have a snowflakes chance of a referendum.
DC and NC will dictate which way their members should vote on whether to offer the electorate a say in events....and if by some fluke of fate the MP's decide we should get a vote, DC has no obligation whatsoever to ensure that this happens.......he can just ignore it and go on his way merrily.
So as Electors we have no earthly power to influence our own destiny........ a vote of any description is just a sop to keep the masses in line.(I'm sounding increasingly like the other Margaret on here, aren't I?)

We have been defeated by Europe...not with bullets and bombs, but with Bureaucrats, taxes and red tape.
This kind of war allows the populace to live and contribute to this growing monster.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Besides, being 'difficult' isn't a good enough reason in my book not to do something, if it's the right thing to do.

That's 'if' the British people were allowed their say in a referendum, and 'if' they voted to leave the E.U.

I could happily post a hundered links showing how Britain suffers from it's E.U. membership.

Earlier in the thread I challenged the yes voters to provide evidence to show how Britain benefits.

So far the best that's been given is it would be difficult to leave.

I, and am sure the majority of us who've voted no, look forward to seeing some more compelling evidence from those who voted yes, as to how this country benefits as a member of the European Union.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Yes , Jaysay , there is a problem , a big one , not just in untying 36 years' of red tape , but in also withdrawing from all the trading agreements set up by the UK through its 36 years of EEC/EU membership , which must be seen as a possibilty if we withdraw from the EU .

It is not a simple issue . Prior to joining the EEC we were members of EFTA , the European Free Trade Association . Since we left EFTA it has changed considerably .

If we were to make the decision to leave the EU , our government would need to be in negotiation with EU states and non-EU states to sort out the ways in which our economic affairs would relate to these states . Before our membership of the EEC much of our trade was tied up with Commonwealth countries , I'm thinking of such countries as Australia and New Zealand . But that's gone now .

There is no magic wand to be waved to take us back to the days before 1973 . Since then world trade has globalised in a way we would never have dreamt of . We can't go it alone .

How would negotiations go ? It's very problematic .

Irksome as directives from the EU can be , there would have to be a copper-bottomed guarantee that any alternative would be as good as or better than what we have to put up with now before I would consider voting for the alternative .

It's easy to be anti , but I have not yet seen any serious alternatives to EU membership put forward . It is a much more complicated and uncertain issue than just walking out because there is much we don't like . Before we know what would be the outcome of any proposed alternatives we shouldn't dream of any rash action that could put the livelihood of future generations of UK citizens at risk .

I could go on about the Kinnocks , about litres instead of pints , about the European Gravy Train etc. , but for me that all pales into insignificance when placed against the big issues that need to be addressed in this debate . The baby may not win a pretty baby competition , but let's not throw it out with the bath water . At the moment it's the only one we have.

As a Socialist at heart , though my brain tells me there is no way Socialism will be accepted in this country , I don't find it easy to say what I have just said .

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Totally disagree.

If the majority of people decide, when asked about our E.U. membership for the very first time, decide Britain shouldn't be a part of it, despite how challenging that might be, that's what should happen, because that's democracy.

I'd say it's easier just to sit on our collective arses, and watch this once great nation sink deeper into the European Union mire.

Then again I've never been the sort of person to shy away doing what I know is the right thing, just because it might bloody difficult.

Perhaps you're more of a true European than me.

Happy to join your fellow Europeans, waving your little while flags of surrender, at the first sign of trouble.

I'm not.

I'm happier giving those that seek to harm this country a two fingered salute, and then getting on with the hard work at hand, which will mean the battle will eventually be won.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

The big issues ....as well as the ones you have mentioned about trade( we don't do much now in the way of manufacturing do we?)There are the issues of unrestrained movement....immigration, not because the people who come here want to add to the prosperity, the economic pot of the country, but they know that we will hand out benefits to all and sundry.......because EU directives tell us we have to do this.
The EU is growing ever bigger....with the Eastern bloc countries and Turkey(please remind me....how long has Turkey been a European country, I was never very strong on geography) and all these people will want to come and dip their bread(paid for by us) into our gravy.

Another big, big issue for me, is that the people who make the laws in Brussels are not elected by us.......if we do not like what they do we can do absolutely nothing about it.

So we would no longer be in the EFTA(does this still exist today?) perhaps we could grow the kind of food that the people of this country want to buy and eat, without any meddling from the Eurocrats, telling farmers they must do this or they can't do that as it contravenes some stupid regulation which is protective of some other EU country's agricultural trade.
Maybe we could get our fishing rights back....not be throwing perfectly good fish(already dead) back into the water because again the EU says we can't catch that fish.

No-one has the cojones to sort out the financial problems that the single currency has brought, not just to Europe, but to the whole world. No-one is brave enough to tackle the beast that the EU has become.......mainly, I think because they(the politicians) all have a vested interest.......and while they sit and twiddle their thumbs we all go to hell in a hand cart

I'm no socialist, I'm no tory........I was an optimist, but I have, over the years been forced to become a realist.
I do not wish to be harnessed to the Beast of Europe. Give me my voice back!

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Been to Norway?

Switzerland?

I have.

Great countries.

Strong economies, from good international trade.

Good standard of living for it's citizens.

Both achieved despite being non E.U. members.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

As for the serious alternatives....no-one has thought of any, or looked for any, because the politiciains, rather than trying to think of viable alternatives, avoid confronting the real issues. They daren't even ask the population what they would like, because they know in their hearts what the answer would be........and then they would have to sit down and do some real work for a change.

No-one looks for a plan B if they think they can bamboozle the people into continuing with the rut that is plan A

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Britain has a unique place as one of the world's great financial centres.

Watch and weep, whilst the E.U. imposes draconian taxes on the City that means we no longer figure on the world stage.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Yes, the Tobin Tax, which the EU wants to impose on all financial transactions. It will mean that the financial business that is the mainstay of London trading will be taken countries like Hong Kong and Singapore(and perhaps Tokyo). They will welcome our financial traders with open arms and bang goes an institution that employs numerous people....they will take flight from these shores.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Still, if France and Germany think it's in our best interests....

:rolleyes:

:rofl38::rofl38::rofl38:

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

What do you mean G........?
That France and Germany actually want our financial business to go to the far east?
So that we are left, finally humiliated without a pot to wazz in, and all these foreign mouths to feed.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

They were only added, because there's no emoticon for 'roll on the floor, and both cry and laugh hysterically, at the sheer stupidity that we accept these E.U. directives'.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Ah, I see now.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

I would prefer to see our country organised on the lines of Norway or Switzerland .

If anyone can prove to me that this can be done I would go for it .

I am not pro the EU , despite what I have said .
It is just that at the moment I do not see any viable alternatives . I believe that just to withdraw carries the danger of destroying the livelihoods of millions in this country . I am not prepared to see that .

I voted to leave the EEC in 1975 , but over the many years since then our economy has become so integrated with the economies of other EU countries that any hasty and poorly negotiated withdrawal would cause havoc .

I am just advising caution against precipitate action that could lead us into worse trouble than we are already in .

It's easy come up with anti-EU slogans , but that's not solving anything .
We don't seem to be able to have an informed , protracted discussion about the EU issue . It's what is needed to enable us to form views based on facts and genuine possibilities . That should not be to much to ask for .

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Well, Frankfurt makes more geographical sense as a financial centre.

It's always been so unfair, the City of London being one of the world's greatest financial centres.

We've always had such an unfair advantage.

The international language of business being English.

The E.U. are probably just trying to right a terrible wrong.

Which will be the better for Britain in the long term...that's for sure.

They're our Euro brothers, and would never seek to harm us.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

We don't have the opportunity for these discussions because our elected representatives do not wish us to have discussions.....they think we aren't savvy enough to have discussions....they don't want us queering their pitch on the EU gravy train, when it comes time for them to leave politics in this country.

They don't want the extra brain work that is required to deliver a viable alternative...they want to scare us into thinking that the EU is all there is. That there is no other way.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

No need to prove anything.

It is being done.

Get a flight.

See for yourself.

Two economically strong countries.

Two economically strong non E.U. countries, happily existing right now.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

I do understand what you're saying.

But soon it will be too late ever to disentangle ourselves from the United States of Europe, and remain an independent nation.

It's now, or never, and since it's only going to get worse for Britain, now's the time.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

I agree.

Forget the pros and cons for now.

First we have to force politicans to understand that because we never voted if we wanted E.U. membership, we ask for the right to have a say in our destiny, and demand a
referendum!

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Hang on, suddenly you are all in love with the very bankers you are blameing for the world s woes 2 mins ago? You cant have it both ways, either they are evil blood sucking monsters to be shot on sight out they are a thriving lifeblood of the uk economy....

Re the trade agreements, quite simply end go to the relevant countries and say you still want it as it's clearly as good for you as it is for us, if not we'll go elsewhere, russia, china and many others are more than willing to step into the breach.... Please let me know if there is some product that we cant get outside of europe should we need to.

My clear understanding is that back in the 70's the eec was as far abroad as we wanted to look, today the world is a far smaller place.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Since there's been no evidence of how the U.K. benefits from E.U. membership from the yes voters...so far.

I decided to search for some myself.

All it brings up, when you search for 'U.K. benefits from the E.U.', are stories like this.

EU legal threat to UK benefits changes 'could result in £2bn bill' | Politics | guardian.co.uk

European Union Membership - Annual Cost £65 billion. EU is wasteful and corrupt

BBC News - More Europe migrants to gain access to full UK benefits

It's not good.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Who are you saying 'hang on' to?

Have I missed something?

Has someone attacked Britain's financial industry in another thread?

Please clarify what you mean.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Calm down.

Only an idiot would disagree that the financial industry, based in the City, is an important part of the country's economy, at the moment.

Much to the distaste of Brussels and Berlin.

Who seek to rectify this.

There are good, bad, and stupid financial companies.

Just as there are good, bad, and stupid people.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

No one's blaming you personally for the world economic crisis, just because you work for a bank.

That'd be like blaming the ship's cat for the sinking of the Titanic.

;)

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

No, I certainly wasn't saying what you think I was saying.

I am neither in love with the bankers or the banking industry,neither do I think they should be shot on sight. I don't quite know where you got that impression.

However, there is a banking industry in this country that would be hampered by taxes that the EU is wanting to bring in....this would lead to the industry looking for a more, shall we say 'hospitable' base outside the UK.........wouldn't this take jobs out of the country?
Doesn't the banking industry rely on services....so they would lose revenue and also perhaps cut down on staff.

A loss of any industry has a knock on effect, but I am sure that you already know this.
I hope this clarifies my views on the subject. I cannot speak for anyone else.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

The EU transaction tax would apply to all financial transactions in Europe equally. There is a lobby for a unilateral Tobin or Robin Hood Tax here in the UK.

If we were to withdraw from the EU then our position as financial capital of Europe would be in jeapordy.

Not an argument about banks just lost jobs and revenue to the exchequer. Europe as it is now is very unsatisfactory and there needs to be change.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

My thoughts on the eu are tainted by some of its employees , i mean come on, how can any organisation that employs Neil kinnock ( and i include the labour party in the past) be taken seriously.For example his thoughts on the house of lords are long known to be derogatory but now after being offered a peerage it appears he has had a change of heart, somewhat hypocritical me thinks.And he is an eu commissioner, pigs at the trough again springs to mind with half of his family working for the eu as well.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Just like that odious, corpulent hypocrite, Prescott. The working class can kiss my ass, I'm in the House of Lords at last. :rolleyes:

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Yes, but who in the E.U. will be most affected by this tax?

The City of London, and therefore the U.K., that's who.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Principles is just the shop where Pauline buys her gold plated taps, and lavatory pelmets from.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Lavatory pelmets :pain30::laugh8::laugh8:

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

It is and there won't be. Manuel Barrosso and the pampered power brokers who run the EU will see to that. The "Britain must stay in and reform the EU" doesn't hold water. The whole impetus of the EU is towards more and more centralisation of powers in the drive towards a European superstate and Britain will be swept along with that.

Get the hell out I say, but that's only my opinion. I'm quite prepared to accept the verdict of the British people in a free and fair referendum. Unfortunately, the major parties don't have a similar belief in democracy.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Exactly.

I wouldn't vote to stay in.

But if the greater majority of Britons did, I'd accept that decision. Even if I didn't like it.

That's democracy.

Since we haven't been allowed a referendum on whether we want E.U. membership, that certainly isn't democratic, and is in urgent need for redress.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Democracy............thats a laugh, its only a factor if it happens to suit the party in power,at any given time, yer all clutching at straws if yeh think yeh will obtain it!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

I'm quite aware the chances of being allowed a referendum are very slim.

But the consequences for this country will be so terrible, that it's worth fighting for.

On the plus side, anger and resentment is growing every day, nationwide.

So mainstream political parties can carry on chosing to ignore this issue at their peril.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

You turning into MargaretR?

:eek::D:eek:

Yes, democracy is relative.

But at the moment, compared to much of the world, we do have the right to vote (though not in an E.U. referendum), and to freely speak our mind, so we ain't got it too bad.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

This argument/discussion just goes round and round in cirlces.

The EU want Britain to sit down and shut up...like a good little nation.
They have no intention of changing anything.......their inaction of the the fate of the Euro (tinkering at the edges doesn't constitute action in my book) shows this.
Maybe the problem is because it is lead by a committee of unruly monkeys.
Anyway, whatever. I'm done. I have said my piece and that's me........ finished.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

I see that the H of C's has come round to having a debate on whether or not to hold a referendum on EU membership. According to the Tory party in-house magazine - the Torygraph - Cameron has already issued a three-liner so that his back benchers go through the 'No' lobby. Read it all here:

Conservatives ordered to vote against EU referendum - Telegraph

Nowt unexpected there, then. But there is no information yet on what Red Ed has instructed his troops to do. My question therefore, to Graham is this: Given the local feelings about the UK's continuing membership of the EU and your postings within this thread, will you go into the 'Aye' lobby?

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

No matter what people think about the pros and cons of the E.U., there is an overwhelming desire for local people to be allowed their say on this issue.

We wait with interest whether our M.P.'s vote reflects this.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Come on Graham. Are you being naive or political? Or both?
70% of all financial transactions in the EU are conducted in London. So one country out of the 27 in the EU will pay 70% of that tax.Lets hope the other 26 can afford to pay the other 30% between them.
Result- the end of London as Europes financial centre. Whatever you think of our bankers their companies provide the bulk of the tax paid by companies in this country. Remove that and we'll rank alongside Romania( if we try very hard).

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

It'll be interesting to see how all our MPs vote.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who votes against a referendum does not believe in democracy and I hope the voters will remember this come the next election.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Good question. Also maybe hear from the local Conservative Riding Assocn., or whatever they call it;). I've been following this thread with interest and I do think that the local MP should come up clean and clear with his position ... and justifications for it. Not the views of his party; his personal views.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

It's interesting to note that one country that regularly employs the mechanism of a referendum is Switzerland - a country which is also the second largest financial centre within Europe after the UK. It's also one of the wealthiest countries, alongside Norway and Liechtenstein, in Europe. These three countries - alongside Iceland (which ain't really in Europe anyway) make up the European Free Trade Area. Guess what? The UK was once a member of EFTA but we knifed 'em in the back in order to join the Common Market back in '72.

EFTA members are part of the European Economic Area, which encompasses the EU; the difference is, they are fully sovereign states with full control over their borders, natural resources and most importantly, their democratic sovereignty. All of those we have now lost within the UK. But it's not to late. The first duty of any MP -even before his obligations to his constituents - is to be a loyal servant of his country and as such I can see no other alternative now for any MP who is not a traitor to vote 'Yes' in the forthcoming division for a referendum on Britains exit from this shambles called the EU - or the Fourth Reich, as it should now be properly called.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Just watched this.

BBC News - Panorama - The secret lives of Britain's child beggars

Heartbreaking.

Heartbreaking for the children who are trafficked into the U.K. by their parents.

To beg, and take advantage of the generous legitimate social benefits available to them in the U.K., and exploit with ease those same benefits fraudulently. Before driving back to their luxurious palaces in Romania, in their expensive Mercs, all funded thanks to the British tax payer.

More heartbreaking is that in all the years I lived in London, in the eighties, nineties, and early noughties, the number of professional beggars working in London you could count on the fingers of two hands.

My, how things have changed, in the few short years Romania has been a member of the E.U., with it's open border policies.

The next expansion of the E.U. will most likely include countries like Turkey, with it's 75 million population.

Shall we open a book, guessing how long before they become full E.U. members?

Three? Five? Seven years?

...and please don't anyone dare try and label me as racist, because I oppose the madness that ensues from the U.K.'s membership of the E.U.

I was actively fighting real racism and prejudice from the age of fourteen.

Not the lily-livered, liberal apologists' version of perceived racism, that's so popular today within the ruling elite, who favour 'positive discrimination', and which ironically is actually racist by it's very concept.

This issue is frightening, not just because what's happening, and will continue to happen, but because of the inevitable rise in support there'll be for extremist political groups. Supported by ordinary people who feel so disenfranchised, and let down by mainstream political parties, who they feel have sold them down the river.

In years to come you can forget 'Rivers of blood', this will make Bosnia look like a tea party. The seas around Britain will be red with blood that's been shed.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Cor blimey Garinda.. you churned up about 80% of the posts on this thread and it looks like you are hell bent on pulling out.. I thought I might give you a promo vid in any upcoming campaign you may make for the pull out from Europe :D

Queen I Want To Break Free [High Definition] HD - YouTube

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

I e-mailed Mr Graham Jones about the EU referendum debate on Monday & told him the majority of people want a vote to leave the EU , Seeing as we are supposed to live in a democratic country the vote should be left for the people to decide whether we are in or out .. Here is his reply


Thanks for your email about a proposed referendum on Britain’s membership of the European Union.



Britain currently faces tough economic challenges, with high inflation, rising unemployment and stagnant growth.



Indeed, in the last nine months the UK economy has not grown at all. Over the last year only Japan has grown more slowly in the G7 and only Greece, Portugal, Denmark and Hungary have grown more slowly in the EU. One in five young people are out of work and there are now more women unemployed than any time since 1988.



It is in that context that we make judgements about Britain’s membership of the European Union. Labour is not opposed to having referenda on European questions when a Government seeks to make a major change to Britain’s relationship with the European Union. For example, it was a Labour Government in 1975 that held instituted a referendum on Britain’s membership of the European Union and Labour believes that if any future government wanted to try and take Britain into the euro, they would need to win the British people’s backing in a referendum.



But it is Labour’s assessment, shared by the leaders of all the main parties in the UK, that it is in Britain’s interest to remain members of the European Union.



Membership of the European Union is vital to Britain’s growth and prosperity:



· 3.5 million UK jobs are linked directly or indirectly to UK trade with the rest of the European Union according to official analysis

· European markets account for half of the UK’s overall exports of goods and services

· Eight out of the UK’s ten main export markets are in the European Union



We did not seek a mandate for this referendum at the last election and we do not wish to leave the European Union now.



We do not believe the case for this referendum has been made and believe it would create uncertainty that could put at risk investment in the UK.



Labour’s position is that Britain should be focussed on jobs and growth, not cutting ourselves off from major export markets that British jobs depend on. It is campaigning for that jobs and growth, and against the policies of the Tory-led Government that have led to flatlining growth and increasing unemployment in Britain, that will remain Labour’s priority in the months ahead.



Best wishes

Graham


Seems Mr Jones doesn't believe in democracy

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

seems none of the main parties do, that being the case i reckon its time the british public boycotted all the main parties, its that simple.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Groove thinks we should pull out of Europe immediately.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Groove likes Mr.Cashmans idea.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Er...at least check the facts are right Graham.

Before chirping out the party line, like a good little canary in the gilded political cage.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...cageSmiley.gif

The European Union didn't exist until the Maastricht Treaty came into force in 1993.

The actual wording of the 1975 referendum question was...

“Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (The Common Market)?”

The majority of the constituents you are paid to represent demand a say in their future, because not one single person has ever been allowed the right to say if they want to be members of the European Union.

A body that is not a trade alliance, which the Common Market was, back in 1975.

A referendum is the only democratic way to rectify this.

People are very angry that they have had no right to say what their destiny will be.

As stated earlier, I am one person, with one vote, but I will never again give that vote to any politican, or party that doesn't actively support the right to a referendum on this issue.

One voice...but I'm certainly not the only bird in trilling away in my cage.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Anyone under the age of 54 has never been given a choice to say what their views are.
So the vast majority of people in the country have not had a voice.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

...and those old enough to have had their say in the '75 referendum, voted on whether to stay in the 'Common Market' trade alliance.

Not to be governed by a centralised political body.

Which the European Union most certainly is.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

We live in a Parliamentary Democracy .

We do not legislate by referendums .

There have only been two nationwide referendums in the UK .
The 1975 one on EEC membership , the primary purpose of which was for Harold Wilson to solve the deep divisions within the then Labour Party on the European issue .

This year's one on the Alternative Vote was part of the agreement which enabled the Cons and the Lib Dems to form a coalition .

Clement Attlee was correct when he said that referendums are not British .

Anyone who wants to vote for a withdrawal from the EU can always vote for a candidate of a party such as UKIP at the next General Election , or , if there is no such anti-EU candidate , put himself/herself forward as one .

It's just how we do things in the UK .

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

It is fine to put those ideas forward JCB, but I am sure you realise that the small parties like UKIP have no chance of influencing things......Only the major parties have much influence....and this is often for traditional reasons.
Going back to Clement Attlee is both unhelpful and irrelevant. Politics was a very different animal when Clement Attlee was around. Referendums might not have been British then....... the face of Britain has changed beyond all recognition. I just wonder what he would have thought about directives for legisaltion being made in Brussels.

As far as putting oneself up for Election to a party that supports an anti EU view......that isn't very practical either.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

[quote=JCB;941382]We live in a Parliamentary Democracy .

We do not legislate by referendums (quote) .

Perhaps it's time we did, in cases as important as the peacefull takeover of our country!
If a referendum was acceptable in 1975 to get us in then your argument is negated. A referendum to decide if we stay in should be just as legitimate.
As you say, the political parties are happy enough to have one when it suits their purpose( as in 1975 and 2011).

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

How things are done, by stealth, have radically changed in the United Kingdom in recent years.

We are now governed by, and subject to laws issued in Brussels.

Prior to us being bamboozled into becoming members of the European Union, we weren't.

It's a much more important issue to our national independence than the last half-arsed referendum. Which was supposed to be about proportional representation, but wasn't.

Carry on waving your 'It's too complicated to leave' white flag of surrender.

Whether it's 'how' things were done in the past or not, people are angry, and demand their say on this issue in a referendum.

You can stick your white flag where the Euro don't shine. Which is pretty much everywhere.

Ever since we've had more transparency, and our elected representatives have become more acountable to us than ever before, much to their distaste, 'how things were done in the past' no longer matter.

People are demanding a say on how their destiny is mapped out.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

[quote=Gordon Booth;941391]The 1975 referendum was not to get us in . We had been in since 1973 . It was to see whether we should stay in , and was really for Harold Wilson's party political reasons , to solve problems in the Labour Party about the EEC .

Parliamentary sovereignty in the UK means that referendums are not constitutionally binding .

I am not in favour of them anyway .

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

I gave the actual wording of the 1975 referendum, when the Common Market was nothing more than a trade alliance, in #169 of this thread.

“Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (The Common Market)?”

No mention of the European Union.

It didn't exist!

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Since 1973 there have been 11 referendums in the U.K., including the two national ones.

When it comes to referendums at local government level, in that same time frame, you can 37 more to that list.

What were you saying about referendums not being 'how we do things in the U.K.'?

:rolleyes:

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

I am not saying it is too complicated to leave .

Some are saying we should get out immediately . That's too simplistic .

I have no strong preference as to whether we should be in or out .

What I am trying to get across is that we should not leave the EU without ensuring that the alternative will be better . Now surely that's going to take time and plenty of negotiating . Complicated ? Yes , but not too complicated .

Whether you like the man or not , Neil Kinnock was correct when in his anti-Militant Tendency speech of 1985 he said , " You don't play politics with peoples' jobs . "

I want to see the jobs , the livelihoods , and the welfare of the people of this country guaranteed in any alternative to the EU .

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

What Neil Kinnock said was just empty rhetoric. Politicians have always played politics on the back of Jobs. Ask those who work for Bombardier at Derby and see what they say.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

I was referring to nationwide referendums within our Parliamentary system . Referendums that are not constitutionally binding because of Parliamentary sovereignty .

We don't rule by referendums in this country .

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Well surely if we were out of the EU & not constrained by their rulings to allow economic migrants into the Country in droves, there'd be sufficient work places for the UK populace. Just a thought. Plus the money earned would be put back into our own economy & not sent to other Countries within the EU.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

you are right we don't rule by referendums...we are ruled by politicians who promise one thing and then do another.......they certainly do not listen to the electorate. That was one of the reasons the last government were kicked out. They did not take into account the worries expressed by the electorate, about uncontrolled immigration.

If this government do not listen to the growing swell of concern about EU and policies that damage the fabric of our society, then they too, may face the same fate.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Odd then, that the government legislated and passed the 'Political Parties, Elections Referendum Act 2000'.

After recommendations by the Committee on Standards in Public Life that 'politics should be more transparent and accessible'.

Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000

No doubt because the government have sanctioned 48 referendums in the U.K. since 1973, and wanted to make sure future ones were both legal and fair.

Besides, the past is an irrelevance.

Not one Briton has voted this country be governed by a European Union.

The fact is we are.

Thousands, and thousands of people are demanding a say in the matter, via a referendum.

You carry on waving your white flag of surrender, and let others fight, for what is the only possible solution to this injustice.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Like Romania?

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

http://romblonpost.com/Smileys/default/whiteflag.gif

This is quite simply a wrong versus right matter.

Because it's right there be a referendum on the fundamental way we're governed, it's at least worth the fight, that it might happen...before it's too late.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Yes, along with other broken election pleges, referendums have been dangled before the electorate as a glittering prize, in the run up to recent General Elections.

Though as we've seen from successive governments, they soon renege on holding these promised referendums, once they've secured election victory.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

At the 2010 General Election Labour did stand on a pro EU ticket without referendum. Whatever my own personal views are, any shift from that would be a case of MPs promising one thing and doing another. I would legitamaly anger pro EU Labour voters who quite rightly feel cheated.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Graham, its blatantly obvious that the UK people WANT a vote on this..and its equally obvious what the result would be...i can think of NOT ONE SINGLE reason why the public should not be given what they want!..We are getting sick of the Animals running the Zoo!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MP's are elected to represent the public!!

Best Regards - Taggy

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Yes. A General Election Labour lost.

Been contacted by many pro-European Unionists here in Hyndburn Graham?

Because you sure as hell don't seem to have much support on here, as witnessed by the three polls there's been on Accy Web on this issue over the last seven years.

Especially if we discount the votes of yourself, and Councillors Smith and Dawson. Which brings the local support down to almost nil.

Carry on.

Toe the party line.

At least Greg Pope had the sense to rebel against the party, when he knew it was what the people who elected him would expect.

Good luck at the next General Election, if we're still a constituency.

Choosing not to vote to right this injustice, by allowing the people of Hyndburn a voice in a referendum, I fear you'll need it.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

I will also add Graham........that the vast majority of votes cast for you at the last election were because you were a local candidate, representing local NOT NATIONAL opinion, i think you should represent that when you make your decision!..

If you disagree..please tell me why?

Best Regards - Taggy

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

I was just starting to say something along similar lines when you posted that.

Traditional local Labour voters turned their back on the party in droves. Sickened by the way the country was being run by 'New Labour', after three consecutive terms. Especially after the expenses scandals, ongoing wars, disastrous economic policies, and unfettered immigration.

Your election victory was much aided by the fact you were local, and relatively unknown, other than that of an untested politican in practical terms, who'd led the opposition on H.B.C., but mainly because the Tory's couldn't get their act together.

Which meant their candidate's campaign was very easy to rubbish. I'll hold my hands up, I did. Sometimes using snippets fed to me by yourself, but were too afraid to say publicly.

It genuinely sickens me, as stated earlier, that I'll probably be forced to vote for a single issue party at the next election, but I fear I'll have no choice.

If as you say, you vote against people being allowed their say in a referendum, you will not get my vote, and I'll do everything in my limited power to pursuade others not to do so as well.

I respect you as a person Graham, and think you're a good man, with a good heart, and have honourable intentions, but with every fibre of my body I know you are wrong on this issue, and are totally out of touch with the needs of the people you represent.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

I can do nothing more than echo Garinda's post...so it's up to you Graham...you either continue to represent the people that voted for you, which up until now i feel you have, or you decide that now that we have put you in a position of relative power & wealth..we no longer matter to you!

This is going to be a big decision for you...and i'm with Garinda in saying that if you don't agree for a referendum you will not get my vote next time!

Best Regards - Taggy

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Looks like I've got only about half an hour left before the world ends; so, I'll mention something that just crossed my mind ... a short trip .... But is it not true that the EU needs Britain at least as much as Britain is said, at least by EU supporters, to need the EU? I realize that it is not as simple as writing an e-mail stating: "We are leaving, have a nice day":rolleyes:, but Britain is a large economy still, even with the problems it is facing. So it really doesn't seem as if "there is no alternative". Wasn't that a famous Thatcher saying, by the way:confused:

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

How can you feel cheated if you are allowed to have a say. Is it fair that a large proportion of this country have never had a say in this destiny of their country?

What about the large number of people who want to either re-negotiate our terms/leave the EU altogether.....it is Ok for them to feel cheated, is it?

And because Labour stood on a Pro-Europe ticket without any promise of a referendum Graham, does that not lead you to suspect that that may be one of the reasons why they were not re-elected?

I know my memory is dimming a little, but I do remember campaigns where parties said they would, if elected, give the electorate a chance to have a say on the EU...........then, because they could see how difficult it would be if the vote went against being in the EU, they reneged on their promises.

I really do struggle with my conscinence at the time of elections because I know I am being lied to....the parties(all of them) tell the electorate what they think we want to hear, and certainly they tell us what they think we should know. This does not sit well with me. Increasingly their is a blurring of the demarcation lines between the parties, which means, effectively, that there isn't really a choice at all.....except perhaps the choice of lesser evils(and recently they haven't been that 'lesser').

These are just my humble(thought out...considered) opinions, so I know they aren't worth much.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Graham's position is quite simple; he's in the whip's office - the bottom rung of the ladder to a front bench position and if he sticks two fingers up to Red Ed now he's out on his bum. That's not too bad in itself, because while Hyndburn constituency may well lose the credo of having a rising star in the opposition, at least it's MP can then concentrate on local issue's. The real problem arises for Graham in a few years time, because if the existing constituency disappears, then he ain't going to be top of the list for selection to one of the new 'uns. So it will back to his old day job. Shame, that.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Too late to vote in the poll but I'd have voted no.

Unless an MP is against referenda, I cannot see why they would not vote for this. Voting in favour of it on Monday does not make an MP anti-EU, it is simply voting in favour of giving the British people a say.

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

Can't see the point in debating an issue If you have to vote the way you are told or be resigned to spend the rest of your life on the naughty step.:whip::whip::worthy::worthy:

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

As a current MP he will get first dibs at the redrawn seat. There may not even be any challengers if the old seat makes up the majority of the new one. If there is a challenge, the local association will choose. For Graham's sake he better hope they like a Labour loyalist!

Re: How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?
 

I apologise.

I thought I'd set the poll to remain an open one.