Help me out ...
 

Ok, guys, help me out on this one ... you know, input from someone closer to what's going on.

Marines charged with murder over Afghanistan death | UK news | The Guardian

I know I don't have all the facts, but the story brought to mind an observation made by Captain Willard in "Apocalypse Now" ... Remember when he commented that arresting someone for murder in Viet Nam was kinda like handing out speeding tickets at Indianapolis.

Re: Help me out ...
 

I am not 'close to the event' but feel the need to comment.

They train men to kill and then complain when they do.

Their victim has been described as 'an insurgent' which is a fancy name for 'enemy'.

The true murderers are the politicians who sent them there.

'Conventions of War' are rules devised by the people who never have to experience front line horror. Those rules are intended to sanitize what war actually is - brutality.

The people who control drones murder civilians but ease their consciences by distance from the kill.

When you train a soldier to kill you brainwash away a bit of his human feelings. The fact that one of them returned with a snuff movie of the event shows how de-humanising military service can be.

Re: Help me out ...
 

Well put, MargaretR.
No one is saying he was an innocent civilian- he was an insurgent.
So he must have been shooting at them or threatening them with a gun or explosives to identify him as an 'insurgent'.
These men are told you can't shoot a man because he has a gun,you can't shoot him if he points it at you, you can only shoot at him if he shoots at you. If that's too late for you tough-those are your 'Rules of Engagement'. How can you fight the Taliban on that basis?
Our troops are trained to kill to survive-but our Defence Secretary says ' they carry cards in their uniforms with the rules on them in case they should need to remind themselves'. What a fool!
'Hold on Mr Taliban,I know you've just tried to kill me/blow me up/killed my friends but just wait a minute while I get my little card out to see what I can do about that'.
In situations like that things may go wrong sometimes but-
What a way to destroy the moral of an army!
Mind you I wonder how someone can be foolish enough to record and keep film of something that at least in the aftermath of the event they know was wrong and broke the 'Rules of Engagement'.

Re: Help me out ...
 

We have been discussing this n it sure beats the hell outa us.:confused: If one agrees wi this war or whatever name they wish to put on it, Insurgent = Enemy,Marine= Trained Soldier, End result= Dead Insurgent, So whats the problem.:confused::(

Re: Help me out ...
 

The Lads on ops are bound by rules of engagement, Geneva convention & local procedures as dictated by the commanders in the field for ops relevant to prevailing threat levels.

When engaged & live fire is going down any kills are accepted as a necessity of the operational conditions, but from what I can gather, the firefight was over & the insurgent was wounded & a prisoner. Despite how much hatred or hurt there is the prisoner has to be "respected" & not mishandled & more importantly killed after the event. In doing so any soldier steps beyond the bounds of following orders & is open to prosecution for murder.

It's not easy if you've seen your oppoes being killed or maimed , but the Lads can't step beyond what's lawful & will lead to an escalation of barbarity & the our own would be mishandled or murdered if they were taken prisoner, so the rules of engagement are there for that reason.

But this situation would never have arisen had our lads not been there in the first place, being sacrificed for a stinking backward country, rife with corruption, bigotry & medieval attitudes, still we all know who's responsible for that decision don't we.

Re: Help me out ...
 

Rules of engagement state that you can shoot if there is an attack or threat of attack..if he has a gun you can shoot him.

I'm guessing there is more to follow on this, can't see the MOD taking this kind of action unless someone out there had something damning and the proverbial was about to hit the fan.

Re: Help me out ...
 

Meself i think Rules of Engagement should go out the window when yer fighting terrorists or barnpots that will strap a vest on n blow themselves n many innocents to glory. n not really give a toss who gets blown to hell,:( The marines had already lost 7 of their mates on that 6 month tour of duty, shouldn't imagine insurgents gave a toss if rules of engagement were followed?

Re: Help me out ...
 

What if every week a raffle was held in the House of Commons,with the lucky winner getting an all expenses paid trip to conduct a fact finding mission on the conditions endured by the average squad die in every theatre of war we are involved in. This would include ride alongside and, for those who are physically fit enough, accompanying troops on any but the most dangerous missions. How long do you think we would still be involved in such conflicts?

Re: Help me out ...
 

The ones who should be on trial are the head of the Special Prosecution service & the whistle blower, what the ell went wrong, that some clown could shop his mates like this.

Re: Help me out ...
 

From what I can gather, there was no whistle blower. A video on a lap top belonging to one of the marines was found by the police investigating a separate matter.

Re: Help me out ...
 

Let me tell you what would have happened if one of our men/women were captured by the Insurgents/Enemy.These are their rules. They would stone, beat and then parade the person and then publicly Behead them. And thats without looking at a little card. This is a war we shoudnt be involved in, If we dont like what happens. Bring them all home now and let them get on with it.

Re: Help me out ...
 

These lads are charged wi murdering the same people "Taliban" that shot this 14 yr old girl in the head, A lass who's crime was to work fer education fer women,:rolleyes: Wonder if that act comes under Rules Of Engagement.:rolleyes::mad: But then the British always abide by the rules,:rolleyes:

Re: Help me out ...
 

In all probability yes, all of the above & more. But we've signed up to a code of conduct along with the Geneva convention & that is what earns our armed forces the respect & admiration the world over & sets them apart from the creatures they're fighting against.

Re: Help me out ...
 

I can agree with that, especially as it comes from someone who's been there, done it and got the T-shirt.

Re: Help me out ...
 

I must disagree wi the respect the world over, if yeh had said the "Civilised" world oer i could go wi that.;)

Re: Help me out ...
 

I can agree with that almost 100%. All the NATO combat troops in Afghanistan ... that would be British, American, and, until the end of last year, Canadian ... have the same, or similar, rules of engagement. On the other side you have the Taliban, well-organized, resourceful, and determined, whose rules of engagement go something like this: 1. There are no rules. 2. See rule #1. In a circuamstances such as these shiite is bound to happen. However, I do believe that the majority of The Great British Public will support these men. Of course, many won't. And we all know who those "many" are.

By the way, I see that Malala Yousafzai has been transferred to a hospital in the UK. One eggspurt interviewed on CBC suggested that this is more out of a concern for her personal safety than for her health. Wherever, even in the western world, she is transferred to there is probably no shortage of mosque-ateers more than willing to finish off what the Taliban started.

Re: Help me out ...
 

Do you think the Taliban care about the Geneva Convention. You tell that to the families of the 433 members of our armed forces that have died since we have been in THEIR country. You tell that to the the families of all the civilians that died in 9/11 and Bali and the London bombings or any other atrocity that the Taliban are responsible for. You tell an insurgent that its wrong to strap a bomb to his/her chest and kill innocent men, women and children. You tell an insurgent that it is morally wrong and against the Geneva Convention to lay IED,s. You have to Fight Fire with Fire. and when in Rome do as the Romans do. The rules of engagement say that you must not shoot at any insurgent unless he/she shoots at you first. If that was the case we would have lost a lot more than 433. A soldier is trained to shoot to kill, not shoot to wound. A wounded insurgent could and would kill you. Same T shirt.

Re: Help me out ...
 

DiG, both your posts are what we should expect from a professional from our Armed Forces- calm, responsible, measured and facing up to the rules you lived by as they are.
You are, of course, quite right but it's hard not to have an emotional response when this sort of things happens. Our troops are in an impossible situation fighting in a war they cannot win in a country that doesn't really want them against an enemy that has no rules. They should never have been sent there.

Re: Help me out ...
 

It's what I'd expect from Dave, as he was a seasoned professional. Nobody knows the full background to this, but if the guy was a captured insurgent, you can't just start routinely killing POWs, even if they come from an inhuman bunch of savages who abide by no rules. For a start, the commander would end up at a war crimes tribunal, like that Serbian bloke whose name I've forgotten. But, yes, you're right, we should never have gone into that place.

Re: Help me out ...
 

I know as well as you do that they don't follow any convention apart from what their warped twisted minds & mad mullahs preach. And that they have even less regard & respect for life & attitudes that don't adhere to theirs.

Our lads are professionals & that is the difference, they wear a uniform to signify who & what they are, British Soldiers, not some trigger happy bunch of mercenaries & executioners.They walk tall because they do what is right despite their inner conflict, turmoil or the risk.

Things happen in combat zones that shouldn't, it's part of the unusual & exceptional circumstances encountered, that is & always will be the case. these incidents can be understood & explained to a point, but anything that happens after the "Heat of the battle" will always be subjected to extreme scrutiny.

Re: Help me out ...
 

Slobodan Milosovic...the Serbian bloke.
No-one has been able to bring the conflict in Afghanistan to a conclusion...and lord knows the Russians tried hard.
We should not be there. Let them fight it out amongst themselves.
Our lads are being murdered by fake policeman...or even real police that our lads are trying to train....how can you work alongside someone and then in cold blood gun them down?
Let have the lads and lasses home.

Re: Help me out ...
 

I would imagine the majority of the British Public would agree. Its the politicos that dont.:(

Re: Help me out ...
 

Ratko MladićI think you mean Wynn. Furthermore 2nd LT William Calley & Mai Li come to mind, when you talk about troops turning into judge, jury & executioner & that is another reason why we have military codes of conduct & rules of engagement.

Re: Help me out ...
 

Him as well.

Re: Help me out ...
 

Yeah, that's the feller, Dave. Arrogant looking sod. He ended up at a war crimes tribunal along with the bloke Margaret mentioned. I would've thought that our commanders would suffer the same fate if we just started executing Taliban prisoners at random.

We really shouldn't be in this situation in the first place, though. Anyone who has studied history knows that the British have come to grief on more than one occasion in Afghanistan before. But, those who do not know history, are condemned to repeat it. :rolleyes:

Re: Help me out ...
 

Fully agree, It's time a brave P.M. and Parliament brought them home now.

Anyone know where we can find one?

Oop's sorry bring them home? We might lose face in the World, leave them there, prove how clever we really are.
:rolleyes:

Re: Help me out ...
 

Couldn't agree more Wynn & not just us, I don't think any countries military who've gone in to Afghanistan have managed to come through without a mauling. The sooner our lads & their allies are out of there the better, sadly though it's much to late for those who won't ever be coming back.

Re: Help me out ...
 

Less, we would need someone with a backbone....nope, can't see anyone out there that fits the bill.

Re: Help me out ...
 

I am in no way defending the actions of the Taliban. Their doctrine and moral code is completely beyond my understanding and I consider them to be evil.
However, I suspect that their opinion of us is similarly low. They believe that US involvement in their country and "holy places" is satanic. They believe that underhand guerrilla tactics are justified because of this, a tactical school wholly recommended to the Arabs by TE Lawrence.
Had the Nazis pulled off operation sealion in WWII, I suspect and would expect British commando units to have waged a dirty war to its fullest extent. The difference being that the nazis would have retaliated by decimating the civilian population in retaliation. We seem to get stuck in this sort of situation a lot eg Northern Ireland, and if we don't "play by the rules" like in Kenya, we get sued for it after a number of years.

Re: Help me out ...
 

I'd be interested in what Dave and others with more experience in these matters ie any at all would like to happen in an ideal world?

Re: Help me out ...
 

Does this not show to us all what is good about this country of ours. We Can debate these things and we can express all of our opinions. It doesn’t really matter if your right or wrong at least you can have your say. This is not allowed in the countries that we are referring to. Nevertheless we should bring our troops home now. We should get rid of all the illegal’s. We should get rid of all of the immigrants that do not speak or have not made any attempt to learn English. We should stop Immigrants coming into this country who then bring in their wife and ten kids. We should get rid of all the known members of the Taliban and anyone who abuses our troops and our police on the streets of this country of ours. Anyone who stands on the streets of this country preaching hate and death., Put them in a block with members of 2 and 3 Para. Lets see what they preach when they come out. What do you think would happen to you if you stood on the corner of a street in any Islam country and said anything derogatory about Mohamed. You would be burned or stoned to death with their governments approval . We should stop sending the £7 Billion pounds per year in aid to all countries. We should look after the needy and pensioners in this country first. If there is anything left in the pot, we can then let other needy countries have a few bob.
There is so much more to say.

Re: Help me out ...
 

Think you'll find quite a bit of resonance to your statement Mog.

Re: Help me out ...
 

I think it's a point worth making that even if there were no formal rules of engagement British troops, indeed forces of all the western allies, would still, in general, behave in a civilised manner ... well, as much as the demands of combat will allow. And this is a major difference between us and them. We are civilized, they are a bunch of ... I don't think the words I came up with would be acceptable on a family forum.

Re: Help me out ...
 

Is it against the Geneva Convention to lay anti personnel mines? I know there is a Mine ban treaty that the UK has signed but the US have not, nor has Afghanistan. Have a read here Ottawa Treaty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Re: Help me out ...
 

In your master plan what would you do with the British people who abuse our troops and our police on the streets of this country of ours?

Re: Help me out ...
 

is treason just against the crown or your country as well because thats where i would start with people who abuse our troops

Re: Help me out ...
 

Neil, Unfortunately the majority of people who abuse out troops are not British as you and I know it. They maintain they are English Muslim or English whatever. Or they are just Muslim. I have no master plan its just the way I feel as I watch my country being taken away from me by the EU and another mans religion. I am English and I was born in England. I am not English Catholic or English Protestant. If I had a religion that is something I choose to believe in. therefore I am English and proud of it.
Here is what I would like to do with these people who abuse our troops and police. Arrest them and incarcerate them for the longest term that the law allows. If this term is deemed not long enough. Change the law. If the offence comes under the term Treason. Well you and I know that this is still a hanging offence.

Re: Help me out ...
 

Mog, why would you want to incarcerate t hese people at great cost to the taxpayer...that is...you and me??
No, load them(and their family too - wouldn't want them to be separated from the family life that they rely on in Human Rights arguments) onto a plane and take them to Afghanistan(or some other god forsaken uninhabited place).....disembark them in the loneliest place possible, then see how they get on.
Why should we have to pay for the upkeep of them and theirs

Re: Help me out ...
 

Margaret, The only reason to put them in nick is to keep your eye on them. You know where they are and what they are doing. If you send them away they can always get back and blow us up. Thats how half of them got here in the first place claiming Asylum or getting in as Illeagle. Thousands of them get in this way. Doesnt seem to say much for our border patrols though does it.

Re: Help me out ...
 

I take your point, but in the nick they will just radicalise those already in there.......there really is only one solution. I'm not going to say what it is.

Re: Help me out ...
 

Cos yer too polite? I will say it Top the Scum.:);)

Re: Help me out ...
 

Thank you Cashy........you know me just too well:D

Re: Help me out ...
 

I think that I would agree with you too Margaret.