Re: Animals killed for training
 

Or perhaps let out,when certain institutions closed down.:D

Re: Animals killed for training
 

How do you know he knows?

Clairvoyant as well as obsessive eh?



I would put my trust in Margaret's theories long before I wasted a pinch of salt on any theory you put forward after reading your recent posts.

Nope just dumb, if you weren't dumb you would know you aren't a hippy.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Good memory, DtheP!

His post 231 on that thread is also the post of a sensitive, humane man.

A bit of a 'man for all seasons'.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

I know he knows because every other comment on Accyweb that has a link to a paper says so.
Now now less,keep a eye on the old blood pressure cock(er).

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Allow me to correct you, (yet again), you can only assume he has read every other comment therefore you can only assume he knows, I think we can throw the above post onto the growing, Accyexplorer doesn't know what he's talking about pile.

Ah, now I know you really are hoping, that you now have the upper hand in smart arse retorts!

Nope sorry, I never even break into a sweat when allowing folk like you to show themselves up. So perhaps it's time you took a close look at your self esteem? The mask seems to be slipping.
:rofl38:

Re: Animals killed for training
 

So why do you continue an argument based on a tabloid newspaper report.
You have not shown any other evidence to back up your claims.
Which means you have contradicted yourself.

Anyway, as Dave, myself and others have pointed out, just how do you train a battlefield surgeon to deal with the wounds caused by gunshot? Many of these doctors go on to work in the NHS saving lives everyday.

Have you ever took any Medication?

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Oh I get it now,it's a bit like you assuming I have no life an sit at a desk all day on Accyweb.....thanks for clearing that up :rolleyes:

Also on a side note, I thought your liking of the cliques posts was acting like a creep ;)

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Suppose it was inevitable really that sooner or later the "C" word would crop up. The sure sign of someone whose arguments have been comprehensively debunked and who just can't admit defeat. :rolleyes:

Re: Animals killed for training
 

I thought we was having a debate,not a argument.
Of course I've had medication and I'm also aware that the testing was probably done on animals etc etc.my point is I THINK this 'behaviour' with pigs is unnecessary and if that makes me a hypocrite so be it.

Animals killed for training
 

Well said have a clique point like.
:)

Animals killed for training
 

Progress?

Perhaps?

Now if we can just maybe persuade you that killing pigs is preferable to killing squaddies?

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Well, 18 posts so far today and it's only 17:14.

I'm retired and I haven't that much spare time!

Animals killed for training
 

I have, but then, I know I'm sad, some come on unable to admit it.
:)

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Posts per day- Less 2.99. Accyexplorer 7.71 !

Animals killed for training
 

Yes, I know, I'll start posting more when I get used to the site and find out if the members are friendly.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Then surely you'd want them to get the best treatment possible if they become a battlefield casualty & if the Military say this is how they can get the most realistic practical experience, surely you should, if not support it, at least accept it.

Because the incidence of gunshot wounds & blast injuries within the civil medical profession is very limited.

You answer your own complaint, meat is just that, meat. The response & actions of a piece of meat is incomparable to a living functioning body. To understand how a body reacts to various traumas & wounds (from combat injuries) a living organism has to be used & as a pig has the misfortune to be anatomically so near to a human this makes the pig the ideal test subject.

A reliance on synthetic training methods are simply not ample for the modern day battlefield & the injuries that are likely to be sustained. And just a little tag line for you to consider, of all the NATO forces that use this training you'll find it's the Countries that have the most "Boots on the ground" & as such the more risk of battlefield casualties, that see this training as imperative to the well being of their Troops.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Me too ...

But there are a couple of things I don't understand. Why are most of those who oppose your views assuming that you value pigs more than humans? I really haven't read anything that you posted which states this. And why, if the practice is illegal in the UK, is your Ministry of Defence sending members of your armed forces overseas to a place where it is legal? Surely, if it were such, as someone whose opinion I respect said, a "necessary evil", the practice would be allowed in Britain. It would save lots of money, and would take place in a country where bacon sandwiches are haute cuisine ... a not unimportant side benefit.;)

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Watch out for the click!

Re: Animals killed for training
 

According to here - Ministry of Defence defends shooting pigs for medical training at Nato's training facilities in Jaegerspris, Denmark | Metro News - it`s not illegal. "The MoD argued that although the practice would not be illegal in the UK, approval would have to be obtained on a case-by-case basis from the Home Office."
So why go to Denmark? From the link in original post - "by participating in the Danish-led exercises twice a year rather than conducting our own, we minimise the overall number of animals used.”

Re: Animals killed for training
 

That's just members jumping to assumptions,bit hypocritical but I let hem get on with it.....


....It's sad but I kind of like letting them land in ignorance ;)


Ps don't say anything that doesn't fit into their bubble.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Ignorance? Have you bothered to read DinG and Margaret's posts, amongst others? Between them, they know more about medical matters and the dangers our troops face in the field than you ever will. Face it, your views have been totally trashed by cold logic, well-reasoned arguments and hard facts. Best just to quit while you're behind.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

'I personally' have a problem with inhumane treatment of food animals, I also have a problem with subjecting that animal to 'unnecessary' stress, pain, or fear or all of the aforementioned. Anesthesia is not always 100% effective, it's not unheard of for patients under anesthetic to wake and experience pain,stress and fear.....

...Also anesthetic and bullets make the meat inedible (unless you take a few of our local fast food outlets),so it makes this practice a bit wasteful from a practical perspective.

I can agree that training is better than no training.
Can we agree the training is of far greater value than the suffering? I think not.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Can you elaborate on that? Perhaps a link or two.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Now ... that makes some sense ...

But there's another question: Why, if the practice has advantages, is it not part of the training of civilian doctors? There is certainly no shortage of beat up bodies from motor vehicle accidents ... not to mention terrorist attacks.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

We can leave that up to C'mon.;) The link thingy, not the elaboration.:D

Re: Animals killed for training
 

I know I asked Accyexplorer, but I bet you can answer part of it (unless I`ve mistaken you for another member:rolleyes:), can shot animals be eaten?

Re: Animals killed for training
 

But if one doesn't wish members to jump to assumptions ... and I don't see the hypocrisy in that ... one might make clear that one is not showing a lack of concern for the safety of the troops, merely advocating research into training methods that do not include experiments on animals. And there is the wider question about using animals as experimental subjects. This could be addressed without going off topic. I don't believe that those who post on here are insensitive to the suffering of animals, nor do I believe that they wouldn't support research into alternatives.

Oh ... there are no cliques on here. Except maybe "The Fellowship of the Hat" ... and that is ultra-exclusive and international.:D

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Will ti fur christ sake shut up, thas bin blatherin on fur ages, no body agrees with thi, tha like one mon I know as can talk all day, an when he's finished he's said nowt.
By the way most deer meat is obtained by shooting.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Not these ones,their full of clotting agents as well as the other things I mentioned,They have probably been dead too long to be put back onto the food chain,I believe they are burned as medical waste (I've no links at min though)...maybe not the bullets :p

Re: Animals killed for training
 

That`s where I was going Retlaw, along with Duck, pheasant, Rabbit, Goose etc.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Nothing to do with anaesthetic and bullets then. I`m sure you made a point earlier that pigs that survived went on to be killed (the more the better, shows the trainings working) so how have they been dead too long?
And just because I`m in an awkward mood tonight, "They have probably been dead too long" is an assumption for which you called other members hypocrites earlier.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Ok :D

Re: Animals killed for training
 

My cousin Vinny deer clip - YouTube

Me, I hunt and fish ... but I don't eat bacon.:D

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Love my cousin Vinny (not literally - the film), don`t even need to play that clip i`ve seen it so many times. http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public...ult/hunter.gif

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Me too ... a real gut buster.:D

Re: Animals killed for training
 

In fact, I think I'll watch it again tonite ... it's bloody cold and snowing like a sonofabitch; so, I'll curl up with a dog and a couple of cats, spark up a fatty, pour myself a few drinks and forget about all this silly seriousness.;)

Re: Animals killed for training
 

this can never be justified! How could they do that to helpless animals who are living freely in the wild? No life, even animal's , should be used for purposes such as this. How barbaric and yes, animalistic!

Re: Animals killed for training
 

You obviously have not read the previous threads to make such a comment.
Perhaps if you had, then you would have commented in a more intelligent and reasoned manner.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Can I just warn everyone that there is a hidden url in the above post, (I have removed it from this quote), I have reported it, so until a mod can remove it completely, please don't quote the post.
It doesn't seem to work at the moment but I did get it to work and it is for a porn site.
:o

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Sorry Less...I didn't know. How can you tell? I am just interested

Re: Animals killed for training
 

No problem Margaret, I'd sent a report an hour or so ago, didn't think to warn folk then.


If you press the 'quote' button on that post the URL appears at the bottom of the quote, he/she has coloured it to the same as the background, fortunately it doesn't work he/she didn't do it right, but had it worked when moving your cursor over it, it would have changed to the finger for a link clicking on it would have taken you to a porn site.

These spammers are really trying to be clever.
:)

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Ah, I never noticed. They are going to have to get up a lot earlier to beat you !

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Thanks for the report, I have removed the links now. Not sure what the point of it was because you couldn't easily follow the link and I didn't go to the site to see what it was

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Could be trying to get a good ranking on Google - this is a very active forum and probably gets crawled quite a lot.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

I know it's reopening an old thread, but just reading this article today it highlights that the means used to train & advance military medics skills (regardless how people feel personally) via hands on, practical experience & sometimes drastic measures have definitely benefited our troops. That said, it has also had a knock on effect which has been carried across to parts of the NHS. The result, improving casualties chances & increased survivability rates for the man on the street.

NHS adopts trauma skills developed at military hospital in Afghanistan - Health News - Health & Families - The Independent

Re: Animals killed for training
 

There is absolutely nothing to compare with experiential learning.
Lessons learned in this way are never ever lost....and what is more, they can be built on and the transfer of knowledge and skills has to be a positive event.
So out of what was a very unfortunate and difficult event, positives have emerged........and lives will be saved from what was learned in a theatre of war.

I read that article(with great interest - I have never lost my thirst for medical information and advances) but didn't consider posting it in this thread....but it does deserve a wider audience.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Are we talking about the thread topic ... or the link to porn sites.:confused:

Re: Animals killed for training
 

what link to porn sites Eric?

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Margaret! I'm surprised at you!

Re: Animals killed for training
 

I am glad I can still surprise you Gordon, but it was a totally innocent question.......I can see no porn site links in this thread.....unless I am missing something.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Neither did I. I may just have to go back and check it out.;)

Re: Animals killed for training
 

let me know if you find anything....after all we must report it :)

Re: Animals killed for training
 

They are training to save lives not to be morticians

Re: Animals killed for training
 

But there is no reason that they can't use humans instead of animals ... after all, it's been done before, and has a well-documented history.

Nazi Human Experimentation | ReduceTheBurden.org

It appears as if the only part of Genesis which is still taken almost literally is the Sixth Day ... sorry Kevin, I know you believe it all;) ... Although we seem to have ignored is the "replenish the earth" bit in order to concentrate on the "Be fruitful and multiply" part ... especially on weekends after a few drinks ... and the "subdue it and have dominion" thingies.

Since I was born, (altho' I don't think it has anything to do with me) there has been an explosion of technological progress; better mousetraps are built on a daily basis, almost hourly in the case of the IPhone. Hell, we even have cars that park themselves so that women are not such a threat when they get behind the wheel. There's gotta be a better way ... and the reason we are so successful as a species is that we inevitably find it.

Oh, and the "mousetrap" thing ... I mean no disrespect to Pixie and Dixie.;)

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Not sure about the better mousetraps- we had a lot of field mice in the garage, chewing holes etc.
Went for a couple of mousetraps, saw the old fashioned ones and the new fancy ones, expensive but 'humane and effective'.
Set them, next day there's a mouse scrabbling around the garage backwards with a trap on its head. How do you dispatch a mouse with its head covered by a trap?
Happened a couple of more times so I threw them away and got a couple of good old fashioned traps- no arguing with them- also very effective on fingers!

Re: Animals killed for training
 

I once has a ball bearing mousetrap ... but I had him neutered.;)

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Wasn't condoning the actions just answering what I thought was a silly question

Re: Re: Animals killed for training
 

Well maybe it was a silly question and maybe you don't condone the actions, I personally can only see two ways to go, use animals or use Accyexplorer, I know the animals would be sadly missed, can anyone the the same about our virtual village idiot?

Re: Animals killed for training
 

I think he'll be ok with that as he will most likely enjoy the stuff they give to anaesthetise

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Judging by some of his threads and posts he won't need it, he's already using a quite effective one a lot of the time.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

do we have to have seperate doctors that dont use methods learned from swine on the battlefield to cater for people who dont like pigs or object to the use of pigs for training ?

its ok been english and loving animals were known for it but im guessing somones objections would somewhat subside when they find themselves with half tehir leg blown off in a ditch

Re: Animals killed for training
 

There is a third option, we could use the elderly....

..... 'anything to help save our boys' :rolleyes:

Re: Animals killed for training
 

What a wizard idea AccyX :D

Re: Animals killed for training
 

I like it!
You're a senior citizen. Are you volunteering?

Re: Animals killed for training
 

There's older folks than me need a ticket to ride across the Styx with Charon Gordon.
My work here is not done.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

That idea would see me off too......and my work here is definitely not done.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

What i daft idea, I'm going nowhere in the football season.:D

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Hartlepool in April Ol...... ?
You'll need your jabs.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Nah am off back to Spain then D.;)

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Maybe we could restrict it to those with a life expectancy less than a pint of milk that's been left out the fridge..... (hopefully) that way none of accyweb's members would be tested on anytime soon.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

You mean those who are already sick...or dying?

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Yes :hidewall:

Re: Animals killed for training
 

that wall is not big enough!

Re: Animals killed for training
 

I just bet your dear old Mum will be ecstatic about this stroke of genius from her little boy! :rolleyes:

Re: Re: Animals killed for training
 

She would probably jump at the chance and volunteer for it, it would make a change from the drudgery of having to wash his bedclothes every morning!

Re: Animals killed for training
 

You come over as fairly sick, AccyE.

Why don't we make you the first volunteer?

Re: Animals killed for training
 

I thought it was just Margaret's funny bone that was in the wrong place D :rolleyes:


:thefinger


Behave G, I'm starting to find your comments amusing :D

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Less View Post
She would probably jump at the chance and volunteer for it, it would make a change from the drudgery of having to wash his bedclothes every morning!

:thefinger

Is that it?

No tantrum filled denials?

Re: Animals killed for training
 

No, you'll only report me if I bite at your childish antagonistic comments :rolleyes:

Re: Animals killed for training
 

What funny bone......?
I think I had it removed some time ago...it had arthritis in it and was becoming a pain in the elbow......see, I do know my ar$e from my elbow

Re: Animals killed for training
 

So instead we have obsession time?

I bet you have been reported many, many times and most of them won't have been me.

By the way, is the above not you biting? If not perhaps you could give us one of your unique slants on what it is?

Re: Animals killed for training
 

I do apologise, AccyE.
I would never amuse you intentionally.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Well, I guess you can only amuse yourself for so long :gooddog:

Re: Animals killed for training
 

You may think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Oh, dear! AccyX you really are a prat suggesting old people be ‘sacrificed’ in the name of modern medicine. As I am in the category of those who are much, much closer to the end than the beginning you might have cut me to the quick with your suggestion of using old bods. That is, of course, if you were of any consequence to me. Fortunately you are not.

Why do you set out to be so obnoxious? Some of your threads and postings are actually reasonably intelligent and meaningful but then you blow it by such an inane comment. Not even a very smart one. You let yourself down somewhat.

With reference to the use of animals in testing medications – which, after all, was sort of what you started this thread about, albeit on a slightly different tack, I do think it is abhorrent – but like most people I do not question it if and when I am receiving medicinal drugs. I doubt that even you, AccyX, with all your blathering and bleating, if needing a life-saving drug would refuse it on the grounds of your perceived condemnation of the use of animals in its trials. Talk is cheap.

I am now going to spend another very meaningful day before the milk turns well and truly sour.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Dotti,my remark about using the elderly was a mere knee jerk reaction to the comment before it.As usual it was taken out of context an twisted to portray me as the bad guy :rolleyes:
I know,it didn't help answering Margaret's question with a "yes" but I couldn't resist,I can assure you D I'm not a bad guy when all is said and done :)

I didn't set out to be unpleasant,that's just my reaction to the obnoxious comments I've received.Maybe that's the reason I've become a "troll" or perhaps I am naturally obnoxious and I don't realise it :confused:

I believe your correct in that "talk is cheap" especially in a environment tailored for making comments.
God forbid I find myself in a 'life threatening situation' but if I did I probably wouldn't refuse a medicine on the grounds that it was tested on animals in its trail period as my natural instinct to survive would prevail.

I hope this cleared up some of your queries D. Now,if you don't mind I'll get back to my "trolling" ;)

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Jason, I do not believe that you are a bad guy.
I do not believe that you are malicious either. You have the potential to post interesting stuff.....and you have done so......but you spoil yourself with some posts that seem to be posted without thinking things through.....posts without consideration.
You need not be a troll.....there is no future in it and no pleasure(either for you, or for those who come to read posts)in it.
When you portray yourself negatively people will believe you.You have to work hard to be seen as a positive poster......and this doesn't mean that you have to always agree, it just means that you have to respect the other posters view(even if that other poster makes fun of you....ridicules you.....no one can make you feel small unless you give them permission- a quote by some famous woman. I'm tempted to say Eleanor Roosevelt, except I think her quote involved a doormat).
Don't post knee jerk reactions......wait and consider your response(I wish I had learned that lesson earlier)....don't rise to the bait.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Gee, I feel like a naughty schoolboy that just had a rollicking off his teachers.

I'll bear your comments in mind and try thinking before posting in future :o

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Why would you feel like that Jason.....my comments are meant in the best possible way to give you some advice and insight.
They were never meant as a rollicking......I am just a bit disappointed that you have not learned from your past errors......as I say, you showed potential to be a worthy member of the forum...and there is no reason why that cannot be so in the future.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Your humerus maybe:confused:

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Seems like members of ISIS practice their surgical skills on human subjects.

ISIS beheading video shows Welsh medical student, father says - World - CBC News

By the way, I think it's an insult to taffies all over the world that this complete waste of skin is referred to as "Welsh."

Re: Animals killed for training
 

The plot thickens.

BBC News - Nasser Muthana's father denies son is in beheading video

But then, now he's had time to think about it, he would, wouldn't he?

Re: Re: Animals killed for training
 

Nope, the plot just sickens.

Re: Animals killed for training
 

Guardian today says British Intelligence are focused on Abdel Majed Abdel Bary with the nom de guerre Abu Abdullah al Britani as being Jihadi John.

Let's see what happens now.