Re: Schoolgirl wins dress case
 

and here's a lil background i was talkin about




Hizb ut-Tahrir (HuT), which is legal in Britain but banned in Germany and much of the Middle East, advised Shabina Begum, a 15-year-old orphan. Her case, which was funded by legal aid, was thrown out by the High Court last week.[article]

This was hardly ever bought up throughout the long years this case has gone on.


Khalid Mahmood, Labour MP for Birmingham’s Perry Bar constituency, said: “Most Muslims are happy with the existing dress code. I think they (HuT) are trying to pick a fight. The Home Office needs to look at some of their activities. At the moment they are very close to the edge.”[article]

Denbigh High school was an unlikely target for criticism. Almost 80% of its 1,000 pupils are Muslim, and its dress code, which allows pupils to wear a shalwar kameez (trousers and a long tunic), was introduced with the support of the town’s Council of Mosques.[article]

This is another important point about Muslims being happy about the dress code and why people could not understand why she was so adamant on the issue. Like I mentioned yesterday the shalwar kameez was a suggestion PUT FORWARD by the leaders of all the mosques in the local area.

She was 13 when, in September 2002, she was sent home from Denbigh high school in Luton for wearing a jilbab, an ankle-length dress that leaves only the face and hands visible.[article]

She was only 13...Talk about taking advantage of a vunerable person.


He emphasised that the group had not contributed financially towards the legal action or to her family.[article]

Amazing to say the least, they urge her on to fight the people "oppressing" her but yet do not donate a single PENNY to her cause!

The full article is here

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspap...151411,00.html


From her "victory" speech you could clearly see they had their hands in the whole dispute. Once more the speech read out was identical to what they often come out with on their leaflets.






Not everythign is black and white.

Re: Schoolgirl wins dress case
 

We have the same issues here in Canada. Almost every school holiday is based around a Church event. We no longer have prayer in school, no religous expressions to celebrate what ever holiday comes upon us and no school nativity plays at Christmas.

This is so we do not offend other religeons but there is no concern about us being offended.
The kids know very little about their own religious beliefs if their parents do not attend church but they can tell you all about the regions of their classmates. It is freely discussed in class. A wee bit one sided to my mind and we are on the lsoing side.

Re: Schoolgirl wins dress case
 

Thanks for your input on this one Mani. It's nice to know that we are not the only ones who are getting just a bit fed up with all this PC rubbish. I know that I will not be voting Blair again too many screw ups for my liking..:)

Re: Schoolgirl wins dress case
 

Just a point, bit off topic.
Racism happens in every culture. When l spent some time working in Kenya, which has a large wealthy, Asian populatin. l was shooked at how badly the Asians treated the Africans. They looked down on them, and called them monkeys.
l like Busman, will be glad not to be around in our country in 50 years time, as l think we will have another Bosnia on our hands. When people feel their rights as citizens are under threat, they look for scape goats, just as Germans did in the 20's/30's with the Jews. What was a very liberal country soon turned into the Third Reich.
Unlike the Jews, l think Muslims may not be so passive here in the future.

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I would like to thank Mani for his valuable input to the discussion. He mentions the Islamic group Hizb ul Tahrir. For those of you who do not understand the reference perhaps this may help...

"An interesting case is that of Hizb ul-Tahrir (“Liberation Party”): it is a radical
fundamentalist party based in London that was originally set up as a Palestinian Islamic
movement in 1953. Officially non-violent, its ideas are nevertheless very radical. It advocates
the immediate re-establishment of the Caliphate and the ultimate conversion of the entire
world to Islam. Hizb ul-Tahrir is now a genuinely internationalist movement; indeed, it is
difficult to identify and locate precisely its controlling authority…

…which is under the control of a group of militants based in London.
The movement is rapidly growing and is now farthermost a European one.
The Hizb ul-Tahrir is closely linked with the Muhajirun organization of Sheikh Omar Bakri.
Bakri is a Syrian resident in London who maintains a high profile in the English language media.
Though Bakri does not make explicit reference to Hizb ul-Tahrir, his
pronouncements and website contents are often identical with those of Hizb ut-Tahrir. The
Muhajirun movement, therefore, is likely a front for Hizb ul-Tahrir in Europe, which
developed in the 1980s and 1990s in Great Britain, Sweden and the Netherlands—and to a
lesser extent in the United States. It has also a branch in Moscow. Starting in1997, it
established new chapters in Muslim countries, including Sudan, Uzbekistan and Pakistan."


http://www.csis.org/ruseura/pubs/AFP/roy.pdf

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I honestly believe the "PC Brigade" are the cause of most of the problems they claim to exist to prevent. (Putting aside the HuT for a moment.) If it weren't for people telling us what we can and can't say and can and can't do I think the majority of us would get along fine with each other. I'm more than happy to learn about other cultures and we have always gained in the past by integrating bits of things into our own way of life. The problem we are up against these days is that we are expected to disregard our English/Christian heritage in case it may offend people. But the people who would have us disregard it do not speak on behalf of the people they assume it will offend. Personally I'd rather my children grew up being permitted to openly celebrate Christmas and Easter with their Christian friends and also Eid with their muslim friends, Chinese New Year with their Chinese friends etc. That way we all gain.

I find it very worrying that we are now so PC that we are expected to defend the rights of people who want to encourage violence and division. The media coverage gives the impression that such people speak on behalf of a majority when in fact giving them media coverage is exactly what they want because they are only a small section of the population but publicity attracts other supporters.

There is no way the whole world is going to be converted to Islam and more than the whole world was ever converted to Christianity when that was forced upon other people. What about the atheists and agnostics? Nobody can force anyone else into a set of beliefs they don't subscribe to.

The Blairs were certainly barking up the wrong tree with this one weren't they?

Thanks for all the information mani and A-b. It helps us to put the whole thing into perspective.

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mani, nice one , i've upped your karma for those posts.
you have given the asain perspective in a sensible well put together manner despite some of the ill informed comments earlier in the thread ie "i hate muslims".
we have to take people on individual basis not as a whole. i ask people to think what about if you were taking the blame for the recently convicted british soldiers and their crimes? or baden powell and the concentration camps set up in the boer war?
mani has been a bastion for his race and religion and people should think about what they are saying.
yes i agree that this dress case is over the top, but your average muslim in the street also holds that view and it is something that needs to be addressed by everyone and not just head in the sand politicians. but divicive comments about indians being better than pakistanis or i hate everyone from a particular race or creed will not help anyone.
think before you speak.
ignorance maybe bliss . but it's ******* frustrating for the rest of us.

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oooooooooh i just remmeber what else i was gonna blah blah on about

taking the dead to be buried in pakistan/india

basically in india/pak families tend to have a graveyard for family members as my family does. when i went there last yr i went to my sis's graveside and there was alot of folk from my ancestors buried there. so people who lived there in their youth, where they had their childhood memories wanna be buried there. thats all it is.

i for one have told family members that when i die i want to b buried in accrington. simple reason - i was bred here i grew up here and here is where i am most at peace. ok its accy but its home too. my daughter and family members can come when they want etc wihtout having to spend £600 to b visiting my grave...

my sis who grew up in pak said she wanted to b buried there. so we did as her wishes were. i personally disagreed with her that she wud b makin a mistake. her kids are here, her family is here how often wud we get a chance to pray by her graveside in pakistan? i've never been a staunch supporter of takin bodies back to pakistan.

and one of the biggest reasons of it all is ironically its against the beliefs of islam for a body to b taken else where and buried there. according to islam a body shud b buried as soon as. obviously circumstances permittin.

a friend of mine died in the tsunami thing - he was holidaying in sri lanka though he was pak himself. they did find his body but his parents decided to let it b there and not to the uk or pak - there were a few ppl who raised eyebrows and gave it their high and mighty bring the body back here - i was like whats the point? they found the body after 5 days and it wasnt in the most perfect condition. his parents were there for the burial y dont u just use that hot air from ur mouth to pray for him instead of causing his parents more grief?

Re: Schoolgirl wins dress case
 

HI people how are we all doing.

i have been on here for about 30 mins reading this topic which am surprised has had sooo much attention and comments but is a good thing so at least people can things off their chest as to put it. Their has been some very good points to which i do agree to and some others which are just very childish and pathetic but i guess that is expected.

when i did see this on the new a few days back i was surprised that the courts had let this case sooooo far in the first place and you all know what happens when the media get a slight sniff... i did find it a bit stupid as to why the girl had done all this as am sure she must have known before going to this school that would not have been allowed to wear the full traditional clothing BUT she was allowed to wear the headscarf but she wanted to go that little bit further and see how far she could push this system and i guess she did get very far and it has made Mr blair and those posh tots at downing street look stupid with egg on their face i guess they have only got themselve to blame in the first place..............

i do believe that if you come to this country you should adapt to it's way of life abide it's laws and try to fit into its lifestyle as best as you can and if you do not like it then you should not be here, but this is for all religions and backgrounds not just for muslims !!!

i myself and born n bred here in accrington all my life and have never found it hard or found myself feeling an outsider as i try to be myself and just get on with it sort of thing. trying to adjust in any place,communtiy,country may be hard but once you get going it is not that bad after all

yes i do agree that their are extremists who use this religion to fight their wars and make attacks on others not just here in the uk but all over the world but they are not what being a muslim is about but i guess the majority of you on here know that only the stubborn and ill mannered dont accept this and do try their best to put us all in the same basket

any way enough of me and am sure to get some hmmm and ahh's from this which i hope i do and look foward to your comments

btw chav1 i dont think you have ever met any decent pakistanis or you just say what others tell you

Re: Schoolgirl wins dress case
 

nice one imy.
like i said earlier ,take folk as you find 'em.

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I would just like to point out that my intention was not to be racist in the comment I made......I worked with people from all races and creeds during my career, and I met good and bad in all races.
I just find the political correctness crazy, and the way we bend over backwards to accommodate ethnic practices borders on reverse racism. If I went to live in some of the muslim countries would my beliefs be taken care of in such a manner? I doubt it!

I would like to thank Mani for his input in letting us know how his own community sees the issue.

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Very well said Doug......I couldn't have put it better myself.....in fact that is what I meant when I said that Enoch was right.....not racist. When in Rome etc.etc.

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This thread has got better with every post and I thank the moderators for not deleting any posts. I have taken a battering on my karma points and that was to be expected although I have received some back, thanks to the people who pm me but I won't edit my post.
What I was after saying was that I still think I am a racist, I do lot like the muslim religion infact I don't like any religion to be honest although for the record I was brought up a catholic and did go to church. Most of the wars in the world are caused by religion but now it seems we have a new enemy, the PC brigade who in this thread at least seem to stir up more anger than religion its self.

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I support your decision not to edit your post Bagpuss and I welcome the fact that the Moderators have left well alone. I say this because right or wrong we should all embrace the right to free speech and self expression. Even when we offended others we should all remember that our forefathers give their lives for that right. And by that I include all those Nations and their sons who of all religions and cultures died for this country and the rights of its people.

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Evening all,good to see we are all having our own little freedom of speech in here. we all have the right of freedom of speech in this country which is good unlike a lot of countires where if you did say something you would be put in jail or even worse but dont you feel their is a point where your freedom of speech should only go ???

yes a lot of people dont like the muslim religion but i gues that has nothing to do with the real muslims of our own society who actually live here and have been here for a long time but from the minority who come here and just want to unsettle different countys up and down the country to which they are being very successfull at present and the narrow minded of different towns and cities seem to judge what only a handful of people do to one big society as a whole...........

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It isn't reverse racism. It IS racism pure and simple. Anything which makes a detrimental racial distinction against any race is racism.

If there are rules for one section of society which do not apply to another section of society because of their race then that is racism.

If I didn't employ a black person purely because they are black that would make me a racist. Equally if a black employer wouldn't hire me because I am white that too is racist.

The same applies in my opinion if someone is employed not purely on merit but gets a few extra "brownie points" for being from a minority group of any kind. Everyone should be taken on their own individual merit, nothing more and nothing less.

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well said WTW i totally agree with you but as you know your self we dont live in a perfect society nor a perfect world.....................
The last comment regarding the few xtra brownies points does actually work the other way from what i have heard, seen and read that the minority dont even get a look in at soem jobs even if they are equally qualifed or even more qualifed than their other more "british" counter parts

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Re: Schoolgirl wins dress case
 

yes it is, but it only takes one person to start something out of nothing and all hell breaks loose or some stupid comment can make all the difference.....

Re: Schoolgirl wins dress case
 

There is a longish two page article in the Sunday Times this morning which I think is well worth reading.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...512821,00.html

The questions asked at the end of the article strike me as extremely pertinent. It would be interesting to hear what all members, from whatever side of the religious/racial divide, think.

Re: Schoolgirl wins dress case
 

Exactley Doug, if i was to live abroad i too would respect the ways and laws of the country.If you do not like it instead of complaining then begger off were you come from. Everyone's loyalties should lie with the country they are living in.

Re: Schoolgirl wins dress case
 

How is it that in France the muslim girls are not permitted to wear the hijab(headscarf) to school. Do they have a different set of human rights laws????
The jilbab is a purely cultural form of dress.....in Bangladesh where Shabina Begum's family originate from most women do not even wear a headscarf.
In Turkey muslim girls are not allowed to wear full islamic dress in schools.
In truth there is no pan-Islamic dress code, although those who encouraged Shabina to take this course of action would like there to be. We are becoming so tied up on the tenets of Islam so that the only people who seem to get heard are the extremists......and that is a worry!

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YES that is true whenever any type of extremist group, member, team or even individual does something or tries to do something everyones knows about it but when other who are tryin to better the country do it it is never heard or even written about...

i do feel that people and groups do take advantage to the max of this and get away with it aswell without the government even saying anything in the process.

if you do go to any country you should try to "fit" in as best as you can and if things dont work out you go else where or move back to where you came from if it is possible

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It's bad enough that the government says nothing.

What really takes the biscuit is the premier's spouse actually having an active part in the process :mad:

Re: Schoolgirl wins dress case
 

I honestly think that Cherie Blair will seriously harm the Labour party's image come the next election.
If we had an opposition party of any worth the labour luvvies would be sent packing!

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Cherie must be awesome in the sack though! She must be for her hubby to let her get away with stunts like this.:rolleyes:

Re: Schoolgirl wins dress case
 

[QUOTE=-pixie]Cherie must be awesome in the sack though! She must be for her hubby to let her get away with stunts like this.:rolleyes:[/QUO

ewww the thought!!!!!

Re: Schoolgirl wins dress case
 

Maybe its stunts like this that gets him off. I would think that they do use a sack in the sack to keep all there cock ups in. lol, sorry....:p

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Is having a big mouth anything to do with it?

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Kinky........:)

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The French have it right in my view,they say school is not there for teaching what children should or not believe in and are cecular,that is down to the parents at home to teach them,all I'll add is that in the future schools could end up a battle ground for groups out to push their own thoughts on other kids,school is'nt the right place and should be cecular.

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I agree that the state education system should be secular, and the national curriculum should be modified to replace religious education with Ethics. For parent's who want their children to have a religious dimension to their education there is always the option of sending them to either a church funded school or indoctrinating them at home.

I also think that the Church of England should be Disestablished. How can it be accepatable that the bishops of what is fast becoming a minority religion should have a right to sit in the House of Lords and modify legislation which afffects everyone, whether they are Anglican or not? By the same token, how can it be right that the Archbishop of Canterbury should be chosen not by his fellow bishops but by the Prime Minister exercising the Royal Prerogative?

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You could look at Religious Education from two different perspectives. Either teach the subject as you would any other part of the school curriculum and cover a wide variety of world religions (which tends to happen anyway as far as my children have experienced) or teach them ethical and moral standards. It could be argued that the parents should be doing the latter at home but sadly in some cases some parents don't seem to have been taught any themselves.

I do agree that it's about time the C of E stopped having such a privileged position in the country and the connection between it and politics has become more than incongruous. Are there any figures (oh how I hate statistics) regarding actual (active as opposed to nominal) membership of the C of E compared to other denominations and religions?

Maybe some of Prince Charles' problems could be solved if he started his own church and got married there? If Henry VIII could do it why can't he?

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In the UK, Church membership and attendance are declining relatively rapidly. Church membership figures for the UK show 6.7 million church members in 1990, 17.3% of the Christian population, with 4.4 million church attenders. In 1995, the number of church members had declined to 6.4 million (16.8% of the Christian population), with 4.0 million attenders. Projections for the year 2000 give 5.9 million members (15.6% of the Christian population) with 3.8 million attenders. (Source : World Churches Handbook / Christian Research)