Panopticon- the alternative view

[Ceejache]

To pick up on something that Tealeaf/Doug mentioned earlier - do we know that the trenches were dug for the purpose of training the Pals eg. has it been stated by William Turner. I have never been told from older family members that this was the case (they, too, informed me it was to stop planes landing on it).

As far as the cannons that were placed there Bagpuss is correct when he says that they were melted down to provide iron for the war, there were also similar cannons that resided up at Oak Hill Park which were also were melted down (like any non-essential iron fixing were).

[Acrylic-bob]

One of the wooden bases of the cannon was still in situ up on the coppice until some time in the seventies when it was removed to Haworth Art Gallery. I suppose it is still there with the rest of the steam engine.

The Accrington Gazette for 2nd January 1915 records that on the 31st December 1914 the pal's spent the day on the Coppice and Moleside for 'Entrenching Drill'.

[accyplus]

The trenches have got nothing to with the Accrington pals.They were dug out during
world war two to prevent enemy air craft landing.

[Ceejache]

One of the wooden bases was still up there in the late eighties - I remember cracking my head on it whilst mucking about up there.

[Tealeaf]

Lets look at the evidence, shall we?

1) We know there are trenches on the top of the coppice

2) As kids, we were told that those trenches had been built in WW2 to stop airborn landings; until the 1970's, there was other WW2 remnants dotted around, such as the pillbox on the canal between Church & Clayton, but no other evidence elsewhere of these type of trenches.

3) We know from documentary evidence that there were entrenchment exercises on the coppice in late 1914/early 1915.

4) The trenches we know about do not resemble WW1 trenches as developed (i.e. in a zig-zag pattern)

5) There was a very well written letter to the Observer last week stating that WW1 trenches are still in evidence on the coppice.

6) No "Expert" testimony as yet been forthcoming

Conclusion:

1) The trenches we know about are in fact, WW2 trench barriers;

Or

2) the trenches are early WW1 trenches (but lacking the sophistication of the actual ones as developed in 1915-1918.)

Or

3) They are in fact, WW1 trenches that were developed & expanded for a new purpose in WW2

Or

4) There are 2 sets of threnches up there...the ones we know about (WW2) and another lot(WW1) which not many people are familiar with.


I wish Owd Bert was here. He would, no doubt, give the definitive answer

[Andrew Jackson]

Originally Posted by Retlaw

Why would any one need to contact andrew jackson abut anything to do with the pals.

William Turner did the original research into the history of the 11th Battalion East Lancs Regt. Accrington Pals. I went to school with quite a of the pals survivors children & when I left school at 14, I worked alongside some of the surviviors at Lang Bridges & Howard & Bulloughs. My fathers brother was an original pal. If you want to know some thing, the saying is "The Horses Mouth" don't go talking to his arse.

Walter

Well, I've only just come across this pleasantry from Walter which, frankly, is abusive and completely unwarranted.

No one doubts that Mr Turner has done an immense amount of work on the Pals. I resent however the insinuation that my own contribution - the Pals website - is not based on original research. It is overwhelmingly so, some of the research dating back more than 25 years. Mr Turner himself is well aware of this.

Andrew

[Acrylic-bob]

Ignore it Andrew, It doesn't mean anything. I have had the pleasure of visiting your website several times, and it is excellent.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Can we have the URL? I'm interested in the subject.

[Andrew Jackson]

http://www.pals.org.uk/

(And thanks, Acrylic-bob - the note is much appreciated)

[Bazf]

Got to agree A B its one of the best about the pals and obviously a hell of a lot of work went into it, Mr Jackson you should be commended not abused.

[Doug]

Agreed.............

[WillowTheWhisp]

Just had a look at the site and I have to agree with both of the above. It is very informative and well put together.

[Darby]

I'll go along with that Willow...Andrew's site has been created with a lot of hard work and genuine interest. I for one appreciate that he's taken the time. Well done Andrew.

[Tealeaf]

Originally Posted by Doug

Agreed.............

Seconded!........................

[JohnW]

Thirded!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!