The Labour Gravy Train

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by g jones

everyone agreed against a referendum. Common sense again given the circumstances.

Strange that the whips were out in force on that particular vote, if 'everyone agreed'??....

The only common sense that ruled on that particular day was 'if I dont vote the way I'm told I'm pretty much screwed by the in-crowd hierarchy of the party'

[Margaret Pilkington]

Cashy, it must be the 'everyone' that we don't know...(although JCB want us to stay in the EU)......all of the people that I come into regular social contact with, want out too.
But we are not in the G.Jones social circle.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by Guinness

Strange that the whips were out in force on that particular vote, if 'everyone agreed'??....

The only common sense that ruled on that particular day was 'if I dont vote the way I'm told I'm pretty much screwed by the in-crowd hierarchy of the party'

That is spot on.

[accyman]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Cashy, it must be the 'everyone' that we don't know...(although JCB want us to stay in the EU)......all of the people that I come into regular social contact with, want out too.
But we are not in the G.Jones social circle.

a referendum would have also given the people who want to stay in their say

the people who want to stay in got screwed as well

jones and those who voted like him not only betrayed the people but the foundation that this country is based on .

Our children ,brothers, sisters ,mothers etc get sent abroad to fight for democracey while the likes of this lot deny us ours

[cashman]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Cashy, it must be the 'everyone' that we don't know...(although JCB want us to stay in the EU)......all of the people that I come into regular social contact with, want out too.
But we are not in the G.Jones social circle.

Speak fer yerself Margaret, I am slightly in his social circle,in fact regard him as a mate. Still dont stop me saying me piece, If Graham sees me,he always comes oer fer a natter,

[Less]

Originally Posted by g jones

What a load of rubbish.

95% of people according to those surveyed by Populus don't put Europe as an important issue.

Well I nipped over to populus and did a quick search, couldn't find a survey about Europe not being important so could you link to your fabled 95% please?

I did find this:-

Britain and the survival of the European project - Populus

67% of people support Britain staying in the EU.

so that's not important is it? Though it did lead me to this:-

Policy Network - News

Lots and lots of percentages there it's like a feast day for statisticians!

However the nearest thing to 95% was 80% on there perhaps that's near enough to 95% for you? But it is to do with staying out of the Euro so it isn't accurate enough even for a politician to use, (or is it?).
Still what do I know? I'm only someone in your 5% that DOES think Europe is important, wrong, but important.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Cashy....the 'we' I referred to is my circle of social contacts. I should have made it clearer.
Apart from JCB.....who I only know from here, I don't know another single person who wishes to remain in the EU.
Most of the people I come into contact with are filled with resentment and vehemence that they have never been give a choice over their own destiny....well apart from the time back in !975, when we were lied to......and some of those I meet were not old enough to vote in '75'.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Statistics? I do not trust them. People do not always tell the truth in surveys.......and the questions that are put to them are very important......the way they are worded can be misleading. Which in turn will mean the result is misleading.
There is only one way any political party will find out what the British people want.
That is to ask them a very simple question with a YES or NO answer.
The question is:- Do you want Britain in the EU?
This would settle the issue. So why are we not being asked?

Well Mr Jones in his infinite wisdom thinks he knows better than us. He thinks that we do not have the wherewithal to decide for ourselves what the answer should be......that we do not understand the nuts and bolts of the EU.

Also we may vote the 'wrong' way...even though the statistics(those things that I don't trust, also seem to enjoy little trust from those in the know) suggest that 60% of Britains would vote to stay in.
Which would leave the government is something of a quandary - even though there is no legal duty which would make them have to act on this ...there would be a moral duty to do something about it.

Ted Heath tied a knot with his tongue that the teeth of the whole of Britain cannot gnaw through.

[Less]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Statistics? I do not trust them. People do not always tell the truth in surveys.......and the questions that are put to them are very important......the way they are worded can be misleading.

I have to agree, statistics are often falsehoods used by 95% of the ill-informed to put a smokescreen around 100% of their misinformation!

[Margaret Pilkington]

Often when statistic are being created the questions are phrased in such a way as to pre-empt the answer that the statistician wants...and of course it depends on who commissions the stats too.
You wouldn't want to be paying for a survey for it to reveal the opposite of what you wanted to show, would you? You might just as well burn your money.

As someone once said 'there are lies, damned lies and then there are statistics'(Mark Twain...I think)

[Lucysgirl]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Cashy....the 'we' I referred to is my circle of social contacts. I should have made it clearer.
Apart from JCB.....who I only know from here, I don't know another single person who wishes to remain in the EU.
Most of the people I come into contact with are filled with resentment and vehemence that they have never been give a choice over their own destiny....well apart from the time back in !975, when we were lied to......and some of those I meet were not old enough to vote in '75'.

There were two Referendum opportunities to vote whether to opt into the Common Market in the 1970s and I'm pretty sure that all the pros and cons were discussed and we knew that it would be an uphill battle to get what was best for Britain.

After the war the UK could either have joined France and Germany in their effort to keep the peace in Europe (eventually became the Common Market), but we decided to use our energies to set up the League of Nations (now the UN).

In the 1950s-1960s I worked for a large engineering company which manufactured earth moving equipment and which exported 78% of its products all over the world. However, it was noticeable after I married and lived in France and Holland in the late 1960s that those products weren't being sold on mainland Europe. There were building projects everywhere we travelled but not one project was using what was definitely the best and most modern earth moving equipment in the world (now owned by an American company).

It wasn't until the Common Market debate came about that I realised why the UK's import figures (mainly for food & raw materials) far exceeded our export figures. This being that the only countries with money were USA, Canada, Australia & New Zealand - we did sell to the colonies but they were buying goods with the money the UK government handed them. There was money on the European mainland but that full market was denied us because they'd built a massive trading wall around them, not only with quotas but with import duties which made British goods too expensive because they were made with an honest day's work for an honest day's pay. The thinking was that as we couldn't change the Common Market regulations from the outside, we stood a better chance of changing things to our advantage once we were members.

What I consider being lied to was in the 1990s when we opted out of the Social Chapter of the Maastricht Treaty, and no sooner had the ink dried and we landed back in Britain, the blighters moved one important clause from the paragraph headed "Work Directive" (which we had not signed up to) over to the paragraph headed "Health Directive" (which we had signed up to).

[JCB]

TheCityUK , who I don't believe are a bunch of numpties , has recently published a report on the effects of the UK leaving the EU .

The report says : " All EU exit options would increase trade costs for high productivity firms - leading to falling output, increased costs, as well as reduced investment. The knock on impact of Brexit would be higher prices and higher unemployment, with lower real wages and growth. "

Gerry Grimstone, Chairman of TheCityUK, said: “Our research clearly shows that leaving the EU would seriously damage economic growth and jobs in the UK. But the EU can and must be improved. It mustn't interfere in things which it does not need to do and it must make a better job of doing the things it has to do. We need to continue saying this loudly and clearly. London is Europe’s financial centre so there is a strong national interest in getting this right.”

I will continue to give such reports due consideration and will not support leaving the EU until I am convinced that there is a viable alternative which will not lead to people being put on the dole just because many find some petty EU regulations irksome .

[Margaret Pilkington]

There will always be some sections that will produce reports like this.
While I do not believe they are numpties either.....I think they may be overstating things for whatever reasons.
No-one ever said that an exit from the EU would be easy.....it is better than the alternative.
We have been bamboozled.....we have money extracted from us to prop up an experimental currency exercise. We have had legislation thrown at us. All from a bunch of unelected bureaucrats who cannot be sacked, in an organisation which is rife with corruption.

Why didn't we just hand over the keys in 1939.......? Save all those wasted lives.
I'm glad my father isn't here now to see how things have panned out.

If the EU was a business( which is how it was sold to us) would you invest in it knowing that no budget has passed scrutiny for almost two decades?
It is just a good job that we were not dragged into the single currency.....the only thing we can thank Gordon Brown for.
I do not identify with Europe, or anything European.

[cashman]

Yer perfectly entitled to wish that, I just object to yeh saying petty n irksome, as far as many are concerned its far worse n that.

[DaveinGermany]

Originally Posted by JCB

just because many find some petty EU regulations irksome .

I could give you that JCB, but & it's a big but! Some rulings aren't quite so petty & have a very far reaching detrimental effect upon the UK & that is what aggravates folks to the point where it makes them want out.