We have been here before...sadly - Page 2

chav1 · 04-12-2005, 14:28

ime probably gonna get slammed for this but i have no sympathy for ANYONE who voulenteers to goto iraq to " help out " and get held hostage especialy after all the publicity regarding beheadings of previous people who have gone there regardless of why they were there

i think it was very inconsiderate of this old guy to go to such a dangerous place in regards to his family ie children and grandchildren if he has any

yes there are some parts of iraq that want peace but there also a hell of a lot of iraqi people that resent the british and americans so why go there at all especialy at his age

did he think they wouldnt target him because he was old because to be honest his captures couldnt care less about age as far as they are concerned all they see is a westerner who i dare say are quite looking forward to executing him

my advice is stay the hell at home and let tony blair sort this mess out and president bush , they started this let them finish it

Acrylic-bob · 04-12-2005, 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda

I wasn't around in the second world war, but I still have an opinion about it. Shakermaker is allowed his view just as everyone else is. Age is not a barrier to having a point of view.

Ohh here we go again. You know perfectly well that I in no way would seek to limit anyone's right to express an opinion on anything. And by the way, the "Winter of Discontent" is generally ascribed to the terminal period of Callaghan's government, not Ted Heath's.

I took issue with Shakermaker because I am weary of hearing what a tool of the devil Margaret Thatcher was. It's an easy, sloppy and unthinking observation. Yes, they were difficult times to have to live through and they were not made any easier by the bloody mindedness of union bosses and the people they led. But we did live through them and we emerged stronger because of it. I am not saying that Margaret Thatcher was a saint, far from it, but she wasn't the spawn of satan either! And considering that the alternative was Neil Kinnock I think we did pretty well.

shakermaker · 04-12-2005, 17:00

thousands unemployed because of her?
ask all those that were made redundant if they think we did 'pretty well'

Acrylic-bob · 04-12-2005, 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakermaker

obviously im not old enough to remember the peak of Thatchers power but i have heard of all the pain and struggle she caused amongst working class folk from my parents and family friends etc.
i didnt say we are GETTING peace in Iraq; i said the AIM of the war is to bring about democracy and some kind of peace to the country.

Iraq was at peace before George and Tony decided to go in and stir things up. Had they not done so, tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi men women and children would be alive today, quietly going about their daily lives. Ken Bigley and all the other murdered western hostages would still be alive. 2000 US soldiers would still be alive and OVER A HUNDRED BRITISH SOLDIERS WOULD STILL BE ALIVE! And HM Treasury would be £6Billion better off.

Yes Saddam Hussein was a despot, but the region has a history of despotism, they know how to deal with it. What they do not have, is any understanding of democracy. And what the allies have signally failed to do is teach the Iraqi people anything at all about the concept other than that they can now vote for who they like rather than who they were told to. Some democracy! Some freedom!

Acrylic-bob · 04-12-2005, 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakermaker

thousands unemployed because of her?
ask all those that were made redundant if they think we did 'pretty well'

The extraordinary levels of unemployment which peaked at somewhere between 3.6 million and 5 million (depending on how you calculate the figure) during Mrs Thatchers administration were the result of years of political mismanagement of the economy, underinvestment in research and development and the industrial infrastructure, restrictive work practices and general resistance to change. Add to this a global recession and rocketing oil prices and I would say that we did get out of it relatively easily. It could have been a hell of a lot worse!

shakermaker · 04-12-2005, 17:23

note to self - never ask for a straight answer from a Torie!

Acrylic-bob · 04-12-2005, 17:26

Additional note: Never make unfounded and unprovable accusations and always research your subject before venturing an opinion.

shakermaker · 04-12-2005, 17:36

this guy is like a politicians self-help book!
lol

SPUGGIE J · 04-12-2005, 17:40

There is always 2 sides to a story and the truth is usually around the middle. I saw the 80's and what it meant for all on both sides of the political fence and it was definately not one sided.

shakermaker · 04-12-2005, 17:44

my original point was just that i would much rather be in the political state we are now than we were under the last tory government, not trying to state i know everything about politics or unemployment percentages or anything like that.
i was just trying to insert a little bit of perspective

Acrylic-bob · 04-12-2005, 17:45

If you care to carry on the discussion I would be happy continue and share my opinion and knowledge, but please, can we do it without resorting to puerile insults?

shakermaker · 04-12-2005, 17:48

ohhh but they're my favourite type of insults!! lol

but seriously folks...
shouldnt the govt. have brought in a temporary ruling that only officials from Red Cross, Christian Aid etc should be allowed into Iraq to provide aid? this would prevent a lot of kidnappings of individual 'do-gooders'

Acrylic-bob · 04-12-2005, 17:58

The political and economic state we are in now was inherited from the last Tory government. New Labour inherited a £20 Billion budget surplus when it took office, which Gordon Brown has managed to turn into a £50 Billion deficit. Next week he will stand up in Parliament and deliver his pre-budget statement, in which he will attempt to convince the country that everything is going swimmingly. Unemployment is begining to rise. the economy is growing nowhere near as fast as he confidently predicted in April. The trade deficit is increasing. The government will do nothing to sort out pensions or the health service or education and the tax burden is higher now than it has ever been but, the country is safe in New Labour's hands. Oh and because he isn't so hot at negotiation Gordon's mate, Tony, is going to give the EU £1.5billion of our rebate back, for which, President Chirac and his farmers, will no doubt be eternally grateful for. My word, you are right, we don't know when have it good, do we?

shakermaker · 04-12-2005, 18:01

well i tried to get back on topic but i suppose it aint gonna happen!

Acrylic-bob · 04-12-2005, 18:07

Posts are overlapping.

Why should it be the government who has to say you should not go here or do that? Are we not all grown up's and capable of making decisions for ourselves?

Norman Kember, I am sure, weighed up the pro's and con's of working in Iraq before he went. No one goes into such a dangerous situation without doing so, unless of course they are clinically insane.