Where could this be then...
 

Picture of my Mum, uncle and Grandad on the right and two unknowns (man and child) on left in about 1928/9.

Where do you think this could be?

Phil

Re: Where could this be then...
 

It wouldn't be behind the bottom end of Cotton St ? just a wild guess.

Re: Where could this be then...
 

This one could prove trickier but if those big buildings in the background were around in about 1909 we might be able to pinpoint 'em with that piece of spare land, on the street map.

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Eeh! eck! thats a hard question!

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Do you actually know phil?:confused:

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Are you sure it's not a bit later Phil? The wheeled vehicle behind them has the word evangelistic on the side and the article Atarah found in the
Observer on the Bethel thread sayst he first branch in Accrington of the Bethel Evangelistic Society opened its chapel in 1932 so maybe this is just a bit before that.

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Going by what the woman, and the girl are wearing, I'd have put the date as 1932/33.

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Datewise I agree with Gary.

The buildings in the left background look like the back additions of rather substantial terraced houses. On the far left, small sheds, possibly allotments.

In the right background behind the group is what looks like a large shed-like building, possibly one of the mission churches that used these sort of structures.

Then we have a cart or wagon painted with religious slogans, possibly trundled out to open air meetings to spread the word.

Behind the corner of the wagon and above the lady's head is a dark curved item which I cannot identify. Could be the top of a porch on the building or a curved board projecting from the back of the vehicle.

These are my thoughts for the moment.

Phil is your grandad the same man as in the Holland Street shop photo?

Re: Where could this be then...
 

"Phil is your grandad the same man as in the Holland Street shop photo?"

Yep!...they also had a shop on Wellington st but not sure where. If I remember rightly it might have been something to do with leather or shoes because I believe he used to mend shoes and clogs, but hat might have been a sideline perhaps.

Phil

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Hi Cash,
please let me apologise for our "words" in the Spire farm thread. Not usually like me. Nothing untoward meant. I am a member of quite a few forums and dont like falling out with anyone and felt sorry for the guy in the thread who was getting some stick.......mates?


Anyway back to the photo..

Sorry I dont know where it is, but, for some reason I have "the tenament" in my mind...ellisons I think near where the old bus depot was...could be way out though.
Date wise..my mum was born in 1912 and my uncle about 1915. He looks about 14 maybe and mum about 18 so it could be 1929/30 ish.
You mentioned cotton st, they had a shop in Wellington st as I mentioned earlier so........

Phil

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Might I suggest that it was taken on allotments near to the chapel that existed on Hyndburn Road next to the then Broughton's Tile Workshop. All were demolished to make way for the current roundabout and the Arndale Centre. Just a thought!

Re: Where could this be then...
 

I think the curved bit is the entrance up into the wagon..maybe an old shara, converted.

I'm beginning to think maybe 1931/2 now as my uncle is in long pants so probably left school...
And there is a washing line at the back so habited housing and not works or a warehouse.

Wasn't the hippadrome a wooden building?

I also seem to see some mock tudor type beams....

Phil

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Nowt to apologise fer, Phil, I never fell out wi yeh, Just say things as i see em, always have.;) I just seem to recall some old buildings summat like those up cotton st, but don't recall those allotments,if thats what they are, hence said twas a wild guess.:confused:

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Yes Phil, looking at the photo again the curved bit does look like the entranceto the wagon.

The original Hippodrome was a wooden building and was built in 1903 on the site of Ohmy's circus. It burned down on 6 June 1908 and was rebuilt and reopened in December 1908.

See pic for post 1908 building

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Just found a photo of a similar wagon...

By coincidence appears to be a mission church or similar behind it.

Re: Where could this be then...
 

I assumed the left hand side of the truck was the back, which would be the opposite of your picture. And the windows seemed to be at opposite ends as well, but maybe the left hand side is the front.

Phil

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Do we know where your pic is located?

Phil

Re: Where could this be then...
 

If you look at your pic the big wheels are on the right so that is is the back, and the small wheels, you can just see one underneath, are at the left which would be the front. Agree the windows seem to be in the wrong place, don't know why that is.

No Phil, the website I got it from has no info about the pics at all.

Historic-Images - Accrington

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Anyone got any photos of Ellisons tenement. I seem to remember it was used for passing attractions and the like and maybe that is where I got the idea it might be around that area.

I think I have one somewhere, when the fair was in town if I rememberbut cant find it anywhere. Will have to keep looking...

Phil

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Phil, I have a book with an aerial photo of that area from about 1930. You can see the Corporation bus garages but the houses round about don't look like the ones in your photo.

I saw a pic of a wartime prefab which looked like the building behind your wagon but of course they didn't come on the scene till after the war.

Re: Where could this be then...
 

I'm near certain it aint that area, spent much time down yon in 50s playing in owd Hippodrome n had mates lived local to it. realise stuff may have gone by that time, but nowt at all is familiar?:confused:

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Proving more difficult this one.....grasping at the proverbial straws.....

Assuming then it is around the time of the "Evangelical or Bethel crusades"..1932 ish,

1. Could it be the gatty park area?
2. My grandad as I mentioned, had a shop in Wellington St so what about that area like Cashman mentioned.
3. Looks like there could be allotments in the photo, so were there many areas of that type at the time..maybe on Hyndburn Rd way?
4. Can we trace in which part of Accrington the "Evangelical crusaders" pitched their "tents" or had their headquarters during the campaigns?


Phil

Re: Where could this be then...
 

I'm wondering if those aren't terraced houses but some sort of commercial buildings as there's no windows on the front of the second one. But can anyone else see clothes hanging out near the little girls hat?

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Steve isn't the wall with no windows the side of a back addition, not unusual for that not to have windows. And yes there is washing there - Phil mentioned it a few posts back. Still no wiser though.

Re: Where could this be then...
 

The second one could be somewhere up ossy? thats were the wagons from, anyone know where the Coop Laundry was up yon? that could be somewhere near it? Aint very familiar wi ossy even though lived yon fer a few years.

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Phil your best bet for info might be in the Observer of the time. That is where Atarah nailed the info about the Bethel walking day and opening of the church.

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Oh, maybe should've read all the posts!
Do you mean a back addition at right angles to the row of terraces a bit like a kitchen extension?

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Yes that's right! I believe back addition is the technical term for it, at least down south where I learned my architectural jargon when I worked for a housing association.

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Was looking at the 1909 Accy map earlier and noticed a row of houses at the Blackburn Road end of Ellison's Tenement which all had back additions However they were all separate not joined in pairs like the ones in the photo. But it set me thinking that if we looked hard enough at that map we might be able to track down such a row.

Anyone got the time or the patience?

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Been doing that on and off for a few days - no joy. Got the Church & Osw map here as well.....
Saw a row of houses on the map at the end of Thwaites Road that looked promising but Google proved it wrong.
My problem with it is that the "additions" look too big. Looked at quite a few buildings whilst driving around and haven't seen anything like 'em.

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Are you thinking these are like kitchen and bathroom extentions, but sort of joined back to back, or side to side type of thing with next door, and the gap in the middle and the end would be the two backyards (the washing appears to be at the end facing wall. The front of the houses would therefore be a continuous row of terrace. They do look very big though for back extensions. I thought they were some sort of indyustrial premises when I first saw them...the washing threw me.....
If so we would be looking for a row of terraced houses with some sort of allotments and a patch of spare land at the back.

Looking at the roof shapes there are a lot of terraced houses in the area around Blackburn Rd with those sort of roofs...college street, Park rd, tremellen st, etc etc

Bye the way have you tried BING maps. gives a very good 3D view from above ...better than the direct overhead view from above in Google maps, but not as good as google street view. You can sort of circle around like in a helicopter.... Might be easier to view..try it

Bing Maps - Driving Directions, Traffic and Road Conditions

Then a post code or address then "birds eye view"

Phil

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Looking at the building ends...there seems to be a really big distance between the top floor window and the bottom floor window (usuall a kitchen and a bathroom???)...surely bigger than one would expect, and they seem so much taller than your bog standard two story terraces. If they are terraces maybe we should be looking for larger than normal types.....

Also are there only two buildings we can see? The right hand building seems to have four upstairs windows, of which a couple seem to be a funny shape. I thought I could see some drainpipes but the windows are maybe partly hidden by something which might jut out a little further than the left hand part of the building. Maybe suggesting more than 2 buildings.

Just another observation..

Phil

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Definitely houses I would say. Look at the drainpipes on the first pair of houses, behind the child. They are coming out of a bathroom on the first floor (the smaller window) into the soil pipe which goes up to the roof and then down to the ground. The kitchen is probably below the bathroom and drains into that pipe as well. On the first floor is also a room, probably a bedroom, with an interesting arrangement of window panes. Below it and just visible is probably the back door.

Crossed with your last post - yes perhaps bigger and posher than normal.

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Zoom in on the windows very closely and you can see what I mean...maybe L shaped. I think we can see two ends to the right hand building, and why arent there any windows in the side of the left hand building?

Re: Where could this be then...
 

This is difficult.
Are you sure it is in Accrington/Hyndburn, Phil and they weren't out visiting another town ?

Re: Where could this be then...
 

I'm almost certain those are drainpipes - you can see a small pipe leading in to the RH one from the smaller window, probably the bathroom, of the RH half of the building. The equivalent window on the LH half of the building is partially hidden by the LH drainpipe.

If you look at the roof line of the gable end and ridge on the LH pair of houses it suggests that the two back additions are joined together. Also the lack of windows in the side elevation is because the ?bedroom window is on the end facing outwards rather than on the side where it would be looking down into the well between the houses, also no windows downstairs because that would have been either the passage to the back door or part of the kitchen, which already has a window at the back, if the back door was in the kitchen.

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Kate beat me to it. I wonder if they were visiting another Bethel chapel somewhere, which might have been in the prefab-like building we can see behind the wagon.

Re: Where could this be then...
 

May not have nailed the location but I can tell you a bit more about the wagon...

From the biog of the founder of the Bethel movement:

The revival tide rolled on through the cotton towns of Lancashire and in many of them Bethel churches were formed.

During this time the ‘Bethel Full Gospel Messenger’ magazine was launched and Gospel caravans were purchased for rural missions and a Bible College and Missionary Training Centre was opened in Bristol in 1931.

Seems Gospel caravans had been around for a while. Found these 2 photos on ebay showing Church Army caravans from 1904 and 1907, plus one from the John Rylands library in M/c from the late 19c.

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Brill find Susie....

I must admit I am not 100% certain that it is in Accrington my instincts tell me it is but that is all.

Let me tell you a bit more history....My initial thoughts were that this was probably just before my mum got more heavily invoved with the Bethel/Christian movement in the area at the time ie ref the "Bethel Walking" when she was obviously committed to the faith.

My grandfather and also my Uncle were never Christians or followers of the faith or regular church goers like my mother was, so would not have gone to any of the campaigns to worship as such.

Hence I was thinking maybe they were perhaps chaperoning her or accompanying her on maybe her first, or one of her visits to one of the campaigns...she would only have been 19 ish....probably 10 in todays money....lol
Once she had joined the church she met a few of what were to be her lifelong girlfriends and they went everywhere together cycling to Burnley spreading the"word" and attending other local campaigns. She eventually met my father in 1942 at one of the Burnley campaigns and they were lifelong christians for ever after.
So I suppose it could be in Burnley perhaps (although it is not the 1940's), unless we can identify where in Accrington the revivalists had their base before opening the Bethel.

Most visiting companys' settled on Ellisons tenement if I remember..the Fair and such..but it doesn't seem to be that area. What about Ossy perhaps, there were a lot of missions around...John St Baptist I think and Emmanuel, Ernest st Church, and others all seem to come to mind, she used to go everywhere when she was younger.

Running out of ideas.....

Phil

Re: Where could this be then...
 

I thought perhaps ossy? whatever, if it was it didn't work.:D

Re: Where could this be then...
 

One of the problems of trying to google anything to do with the church in Accy is the fact that there a place called Church right next door which keeps skewing the search results...

I guess those Gospel caravans were horse drawn - do you think the horses had to be Christians?
Dobbin - the Protestant pony. :)

Re: Where could this be then...
 

More appropriately...a donkey...I believe they were christians......lol

Re: Where could this be then...
 

OK guys, I think the general opinion is that it may not be in Accrington after all...my next guess would be Burnley then, but thats probably for another forum.....

I have another photo which might get your investagative hats on..and I know where this is in Accy.....Do you want me to post it?

Phil

Re: Where could this be then...
 

Go on then... keep us amused.