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jaysay 29-05-2010 12:37

Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
I have suffered from Psoriasis for nearly twenty years and controlled it wit steroid creams and emollients, however I Have just been recommended to try this new treatment by the community matrons. Its from a firm called Skin Kind Cosmetics, who have an agent in Accrington Paradise St. Pharmacy, who I have contacted. They recommend, as a new customer to contact the firm direct who are prepared to give a two weeks risk free trial, I'm waiting for them to get back to me. If any ones interested the free phone telephone number is 0800 883 07890

shillelagh 29-05-2010 12:56

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
heres their website jaysay .. for you to have a nosy at ..

Skin Kind : About Us : Natural skincare designed for all types of skin conditions, a natural relief remedy for Acne, Dermatitus, Eczema and Psoriasis. With the natural ingredients of lavender, coconut and micronised pine needles...

jaysay 29-05-2010 13:13

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Thanks Jen

MargaretR 29-05-2010 13:20

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Wonderful to see that the NHS are advising a herbal/natural/non pharmacutical way of treatment :D

MargaretR 29-05-2010 13:55

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
PS - if you find that lavender works for you, try this
Dr Bronner's Organic Lavender Castile Liquid Soap
...a whole body wash, free from synthetics

suedarbo 29-05-2010 21:03

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Thanks for this. My son and daughter have suffered with excema since being born. I'll look into this :D:D

junetta 29-05-2010 22:01

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
I know this might sound daft but Žim indoors uses Head and Shoulders which seems to help his psoriasis. He used to be in such a mess and spent a fortune on lotions and potions but using the shampoo to wash himself down in the shower really helps.

Worth a try x

jaysay 30-05-2010 09:12

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by junetta (Post 819052)
I know this might sound daft but Žim indoors uses Head and Shoulders which seems to help his psoriasis. He used to be in such a mess and spent a fortune on lotions and potions but using the shampoo to wash himself down in the shower really helps.

Worth a try x

I'll try that Junetta, I already use it to was my hair ( shut it cashy:D) will give it a go

garinda 30-05-2010 09:22

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Sorry.

My mistake.

I thought this thread was to offer congratulations to the winner on the Observer's Bonny Baby competition.

jelly baby 24-07-2010 16:28

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
I too suffer with psoriasis, I was told about Oregon Grape Root cream and within 3 weeks of using it the worst of the psoriasis had gone and I have only a few small patches now. I would highly recommend it. It is available from www.skinshop.co.uk and is made with only natural ingredients. I only ever use this now.

If you are advised to try 'Epaderm' cream, don't bother, it doesn't work too well and costs £13 for a bottle although I got mine on prescription (£7.40) but when I checked the ingredients it is the same as the aqueous cream available from Home & Bargain for £1 :-/ !!

katex 24-07-2010 17:46

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Just picked up on this whilst investigating bananas (don't ask..:) ).
Maybe worth a try ...LOL.

'More than just a tasty fruit, the skin of a banana contains esterified fatty acids, which can be used as a skin lotion. Natives rub banana peels on their skin problems; which is supported by modern research, which says that banana peels used on red, scaly patches of psoriasis will provide a natural relief. Exorex lotion is a patented lotion created from the isolation of the esterified fatty acids and is sold commercially.'

jaysay 24-07-2010 18:01

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Thanks JB I've ordered some, the preparation I posted about wasn't too successful

MargaretR 24-07-2010 18:14

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Jelly Baby has given us this link before here
http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...tml#post738171

I ordered and use the Oregon hand and body wash - it is lovely stuff - like unscented shaving foam.
http://www.skinshop.co.uk/item.asp?i...7;26+Hand+Wash

vera 24-07-2010 18:21

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
When my Mum was alive, she suffered from psoriasis. She used "Simply" soap and shampoo. She said it removed irritation and soreness.

kikine 24-07-2010 19:45

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
I totally agree with this. I suffered from warts and scaly patches but found on the internet about banana skins. It worked, warts an all.

spignific 24-07-2010 22:52

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
i have a psoriasis problem.. for my head/scalp i use ' T gel ' shampoo ( Its cheaper in asda shampoo section then the chemist ) and it really does work wonders for me :)

mattylad 25-07-2010 09:14

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Do you also have Aquagenic Pruritus to go with it?

It seems having Asthma & skin problems are not enough and I also have this - makes me not want to shower so often :(

jelly baby 17-08-2010 17:45

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 831255)
Thanks JB I've ordered some, the preparation I posted about wasn't too successful

Hi Jaysay, how have you found the oregon cream, has it improved things for you?
JB

jaysay 17-08-2010 18:03

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jelly baby (Post 837928)
Hi Jaysay, how have you found the oregon cream, has it improved things for you?
JB

Haven't used it yet Jelly my GP gave me some emollients and asked me to try it for a month, its three weeks tomorrow since I started the treatment and it seems to be working, but I did get some oregon cream and will try it at sometime and let you know

MargaretR 17-08-2010 18:18

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
I will join the queue with things to try
Ozonated Olive Oil UK Supplier. No refrigeration required. - - Health Products Store

Ozonated Olive Oil has been used by customers for symptomatic relief of problems such as : -

* Fungal infections such as Athlete's Foot and Vaginal Thrush
* Fistulae
* Leg Ulcers
* Bed Sores
* Herpes Simplex
* Hemorrhoids
* Vulvovaginitis
* Bee Stings
* Insect Bites
* Acne and other skin-related problems
* Impetigo
* Psoriasis
* Ringworm
* Skin Yeast
* Sweat Gland Infections
* Tinea Versicolor

kikine 17-08-2010 18:19

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
I have never suffered from any of these conditions but know people who have. If it was me I would rid my house of all chemically based cleaning potions, anti bacterial wipes, strong detergents, perfume dispensers, disinfectants etc. etc. Use only natural products where possible. Cocker Chemicals is a prime example they made the bases for many of these products which caused eczema, psoriasis and other skin and bronchial related conditions.

Margaret Pilkington 17-08-2010 19:17

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jelly baby (Post 831238)
I too suffer with psoriasis, I was told about Oregon Grape Root cream and within 3 weeks of using it the worst of the psoriasis had gone and I have only a few small patches now. I would highly recommend it. It is available from www.skinshop.co.uk and is made with only natural ingredients. I only ever use this now.

If you are advised to try 'Epaderm' cream, don't bother, it doesn't work too well and costs £13 for a bottle although I got mine on prescription (£7.40) but when I checked the ingredients it is the same as the aqueous cream available from Home & Bargain for £1 :-/ !!

The problem with aqueous cream is that folk are being advised to use it on their skin to moisturise it.......this cream was formulated to cleanse the skin instead of soap......you use it in the bath or shower as you would use soap......it isn't really suitable for being left on the skin.

Most sufferers of eczema require an oily cream as a moisturiser.

Psoriasis is a different matter altogether. This condition is caused by the hyperactivity of the skin cells.......they are made far faster than they can be shed.....this causes scaly patches to appear.

I am not sure what is used to treat this nowadays, but when I was nursing we used to used some very smelly stuff(akin to coal tar) it was left on the skin for a period of time and then washed off........it brought a lot of the scaly patches of skin off....and it was hell to clean the bath afterwards.

Margaret Pilkington 17-08-2010 19:32

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
it has just come to me......we used Lassars Paste(left on and bandaged overnight....and Dithranol...that was nasty nasty stuff) The poor patients used be done up like mummies.

grego 17-08-2010 21:14

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
We still use both dithranol and coal tar paste at the hospital, both quite potent and messy, I suppose different things work for different people, good to hear somethings working for you Jaysay.

garinda 18-08-2010 06:39

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
I've recently had it on the top of my foot, for the first time ever. I think as a reaction to all the prescription drugs I take.

I was advised by the lovely Nicola68 to try a homeopathic remedy, which I believe was poison ivy, and it's helped greatly.

I will soon be able to return to my work as a foot model.

:D

Margaret Pilkington 18-08-2010 07:41

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 838018)
I've recently had it on the top of my foot, for the first time ever. I think as a reaction to all the prescription drugs I take.

I was advised by the lovely Nicola68 to try a homeopathic remedy, which I believe was poison ivy, and it's helped greatly.

I will soon be able to return to my work as a foot model.

:D

But don't try that at home folks :)
You would need a proper consultation, which is what Garinda had.
Nicola68 treats the whole person, not the condition.

garinda 18-08-2010 07:55

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 838020)
But don't try that at home folks :)
You would need a proper consultation, which is what Garinda had.
Nicola68 treats the whole person, not the condition.

Good point.

The remedies that Nicola has given me, successfully, and for various conditions, were done after thorough consultations.

I trust her completely, and very rarely want to know what the remedy is, but remembered she said the one for my foot rashes was poison ivy, and that seemed to make sense as a homeopathic cure.

Margaret Pilkington 18-08-2010 08:03

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
I always worry that when people read that something has been a success for them, they will go out and buy whatever worked for the other person and try it on themselves.........and we know that homeopathy isn't like that.

garinda 18-08-2010 08:20

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 838022)
I always worry that when people read that something has been a success for them, they will go out and buy whatever worked for the other person and try it on themselves.........and we know that homeopathy isn't like that.


Very true.

So I would like to stress that although this remedy worked for me, I'm not suggesting that anyone should buy it, and treat themselves.

As Margaret said, I was only given it after a consultation, and that homeopathy treats the whole person, not just a particular complaint.

That said, I'm very happy with the results, after months of wanting to scratch my feet until they bled.

jaysay 18-08-2010 08:36

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 837962)
The problem with aqueous cream is that folk are being advised to use it on their skin to moisturise it.......this cream was formulated to cleanse the skin instead of soap......you use it in the bath or shower as you would use soap......it isn't really suitable for being left on the skin.

Most sufferers of eczema require an oily cream as a moisturiser.

Psoriasis is a different matter altogether. This condition is caused by the hyperactivity of the skin cells.......they are made far faster than they can be shed.....this causes scaly patches to appear.

I am not sure what is used to treat this nowadays, but when I was nursing we used to used some very smelly stuff(akin to coal tar) it was left on the skin for a period of time and then washed off........it brought a lot of the scaly patches of skin off....and it was hell to clean the bath afterwards.

I went to see a Skin Specialist Margaret, some years ago at the Infirmary, who put me on Betnovate and coal tar mixed, this seemed to work very well until the chemist informed me that it was literally impossible to obtain coal tar anymore as no one was making it

Margaret Pilkington 18-08-2010 10:23

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 838023)
Very true.

So I would like to stress that although this remedy worked for me, I'm not suggesting that anyone should buy it, and treat themselves.

As Margaret said, I was only given it after a consultation, and that homeopathy treats the whole person, not just a particular complaint.

That said, I'm very happy with the results, after months of wanting to scratch my feet until they bled.


I am glad you got relief from the prescribed remedy Gary. It goes to show that homeopathy does work when it is properly prescribed after a thorough history being taken.

Lots of people will try to treat themselves with homeopathic remedies...thinking of them in the way they think of conventional medicine,(and be disappointed when they fail to get the results the expect) but the concept of homeopathy is entirely different.

grego 19-08-2010 12:00

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Coal tar and Betnovate mixed is still available, we are just not allowed to mix it ourselves anymore, we have it made at Royal Preston hospital pharmacy (I think anyway) its a while since I've had anything to do with purchasing and I think they'd sell it to community pharmacies they would have to open an account with them, hope this helps x

jaysay 19-08-2010 18:07

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by grego (Post 838232)
Coal tar and Betnovate mixed is still available, we are just not allowed to mix it ourselves anymore, we have it made at Royal Preston hospital pharmacy (I think anyway) its a while since I've had anything to do with purchasing and I think they'd sell it to community pharmacies they would have to open an account with them, hope this helps x

That surprises me grego, I know it must be ten years ago when I was unable to obtain it from my Pharmacist, I have been given dermovate, diprobase and aqueous cream, which ha virtually cleared it up

grego 20-08-2010 19:35

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Its still used a lot in the derm clinics at the hospital, we always used to mix it ourselves but that had to stop about 3 yrs ago or so, anyway it is still available if you ever get it prescribed and struggle to get it let me know and I'll get you contact numbers to hand to your community pharmacy, hopefully what your using is working and you wont need to resort to it but if you do let me know.

jaysay 21-08-2010 09:06

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by grego (Post 838574)
Its still used a lot in the derm clinics at the hospital, we always used to mix it ourselves but that had to stop about 3 yrs ago or so, anyway it is still available if you ever get it prescribed and struggle to get it let me know and I'll get you contact numbers to hand to your community pharmacy, hopefully what your using is working and you wont need to resort to it but if you do let me know.

Cheers grego

MargaretR 16-01-2011 14:26

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
I have had a patch of dry scaly skin on my left elbow for three years.
Whatever I have used on it has controlled it but not cured it.

Today I was alarmed to find it hurt! I needed to get a hand mirror out to look at it, and there was an area of swollen redness around a small white blob (pustule). I have smothered it with Lion ointment and a large dressing and it feels more comfortable. When this elbow problem first arose the doc gave me an antibiotic cream which did nothing. I did not go back to him because I knew that the next thing he would offer would be either steroid cream or oral antibiotics or both.:eek:

Two hours of websearching looking at gory photos got me a diagnosis - pustular psoriasis.
This is described as a serious condition which alarmed me at first, until I realised that one tiddly little pustule is described as 'mild'.:)

This prompted me to find some sort of treatment to get rid of the problem once and for all.(more websearching for more hours)
I have ordered a herbal remedy from USA - Dermasolve.
DermaSolve Review – Does DermaSolve Work? | Tips for Health
"The main ingredients of DermaSolve include salicylic acid and nutrients found in eggs. They help to exfoliate the dead and dry cells and rebuild them. Other effective ingredients are aloe vera, vitamin A, C and E, and sweet almond oil."

I will report back with results.

Less 16-01-2011 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 875817)

They help to exfoliate the dead and dry cells and rebuild them. Other effective ingredients are aloe vera, vitamin A, C and E, and sweet almond oil."
[/I]
I will report back with results.

Surely you mean REPLACE the dead cells?
No power on this earth can rebuild what is already dead, can it?

yerself 17-01-2011 11:34

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay
chemist informed me that it was literally impossible to obtain coal tar anymore as no one was making it

This is due to years of Tory misrule. They shut all the pits and you can't get the correct type of coal any longer.:D:D

MargaretR 17-01-2011 11:41

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by yerself (Post 876006)
This is due to years of Tory misrule. They shut all the pits and you can't get the correct type of coal any longer.:D:D

... it's a natural product that cannot be patented, so the pharmacutical companies can't make profits from it's use.
The medical schools are under the grip of the pharma companies, so docs are only taught the 'drug dispensing' way to treat people.

MargaretR 11-02-2011 21:32

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
PS to my post #36...... it has worked:D
The main ingredient is shown to be salicylic acid, which has the same effect as a mild skin peel.


Salicylic acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia -
As with other beta hydroxy acids, salicylic acid is a key ingredient in many skin-care products for the treatment of acne, psoriasis, calluses, corns, keratosis pilaris, and wart It works as both a keratolytic and comedolytic agent by causing the cells of the epidermis to shed more readily, opening clogged pores and neutralizing bacteria within, preventing pores from clogging up again by constricting pore diameter, and allowing room for new cell growth. Because of its effect on skin cells, salicylic acid is used in several shampoos used to treat dandruff.



I will now try it out on wrinkles:) At £33 a jar it ought to work:D

katex 12-02-2011 09:12

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Actually, Margaret, sounds very much like the Lassar's Paste I used to buy (MargaretP has mentioned it earlier), it was extremely cheap and they used to get it out of a bigger jar and put it in a little jar for you.

Unfortunately, can't get it now. It had the main ingredient as Salicylic Acid and some zinc (I think). Was great for chapped lips and those little patches of dry skin you get on your chin in Winter. It was very thick and would go bed with these white 'minstrel' type lips .. but in the morning you could gently roll away the excess skin to leave it smooth underneath. It was great stuff.:)

jaysay 12-02-2011 09:25

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by katex (Post 882749)
Actually, Margaret, sounds very much like the Lassar's Paste I used to buy (Margaret has mentioned it earlier), it was extremely cheap and they used to get it out of a bigger jar and put it in a little jar for you.

Unfortunately, can't get it now. It had the main ingredient as Salicylic Acid and some zinc (I think). Was great for chapped lips and those little patches of dry skin you get on your chin in Winter. It was very thick and would go bed with these white 'minstrel' type lips .. but in the morning you could gently roll away the excess skin to leave it smooth underneath. It was great stuff.:)

Bloody hell Kate thats sounds like a recipe to calm any red blooded males dander:D well at bed time anyway:rolleyes:

katex 12-02-2011 10:32

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 882758)
Bloody hell Kate thats sounds like a recipe to calm any red blooded males dander:D well at bed time anyway:rolleyes:

Heehee, Jaysay ... not a pretty site. Best contraception method I ever came across.

jaysay 12-02-2011 10:39

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by katex (Post 882793)
Heehee, Jaysay ... not a pretty site. Best contraception method I ever came across.

Ya don't say:D:D:D

jelly baby 12-02-2011 16:01

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Jaysay, did you not have any luck with Oregon Grape root cream, I still use it and am still psoriasis free.
jb

sm_counsell 12-02-2011 16:47

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 882758)
Bloody hell Kate thats sounds like a recipe to calm any red blooded males dander:D well at bed time anyway:rolleyes:

Well Jaysay, I think it's probably better than going to Turkey for the cure where little fish come and eat first, then clean up and then smooth out if you have psoriasis.
Can you imagine??

Margaret Pilkington 12-02-2011 18:47

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
would these be the garra rufa fish that seem so popular in shopping centres up and down the country.......where you see folk dangling their feet in tanks of water and little fishes feasting.??

Benipete 12-02-2011 18:52

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 882935)
would these be the garra rufa fish that seem so popular in shopping centres up and down the country.......where you see folk dangling their feet in tanks of water and little fishes feasting.??

Does it work for piles :hehetable

Margaret Pilkington 12-02-2011 19:00

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Benipete (Post 882937)
Does it work for piles :hehetable

I don't know, but perhaps if you want to try it they could screen you off...and then you can come back and tell us;)

jaysay 13-02-2011 09:47

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jelly baby (Post 882902)
Jaysay, did you not have any luck with Oregon Grape root cream, I still use it and am still psoriasis free.
jb

No I didn't jelly I found out I'm allergic to it:(

jaysay 13-02-2011 09:49

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Benipete (Post 882937)
Does it work for piles :hehetable

Well if it don't a wire brush is very useful Beni:eek::eek::eek::D

sm_counsell 18-02-2011 09:58

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 882935)
would these be the garra rufa fish that seem so popular in shopping centres up and down the country.......where you see folk dangling their feet in tanks of water and little fishes feasting.??

Don't know Margaret.
The doc. I saw a TV showed people in what appeared to be a very exclusive spa centre.
Perhaps there's a cheaper version available for the plebs!!

cashman 19-02-2011 10:58

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by katex (Post 882793)
Heehee, Jaysay ... not a pretty site. Best contraception method I ever came across.

always a way around such trivialities, just revert to the owd saying "Put A Bag Oer Her Head".:hehetable

jaysay 19-02-2011 14:45

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 884992)
always a way around such trivialities, just revert to the owd saying "Put A Bag Oer Her Head".:hehetable

Or ya don't look at mantelpiece when your polkin't fire;)

jaysay 20-04-2011 09:57

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Horse milk helps treat psoriasis | Equilac Horse milk

Just seen this link in the LT about using Horses Milk for the treatment of psoriasis, seems there have been some exceptional results

Gobbiner17 12-05-2011 12:34

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
I had bad excema about 40 years ago, my legs were like 2 huge scabs. Creams didn't help and eventually I went to an accupuncturist/alternative guy in Blackburn. All he did was test for allergies and I found it was citrus fruit. I must have overdosed on oranges, used to eat a lot of them. I stopped the citrus fruit and it all got better in no time.

It may not be oranges with you, but I recommend getting an allergies test (if any GP will do them and that is another story). Or look at what you are eating. Are you eating a lot of one particular thing? If so you could try abstaining for a while and see if it helps.

jaysay 12-05-2011 18:02

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobbiner17 (Post 905653)
I had bad excema about 40 years ago, my legs were like 2 huge scabs. Creams didn't help and eventually I went to an accupuncturist/alternative guy in Blackburn. All he did was test for allergies and I found it was citrus fruit. I must have overdosed on oranges, used to eat a lot of them. I stopped the citrus fruit and it all got better in no time.

It may not be oranges with you, but I recommend getting an allergies test (if any GP will do them and that is another story). Or look at what you are eating. Are you eating a lot of one particular thing? If so you could try abstaining for a while and see if it helps.

There is a difference between Eczema and psoriasis, there is no cure for psoriasis, and nobody really knows what actually causes it, there are certain creams a ointments which help some people, unfortunately I Haven't come across one besides steroid creams that work on me, in fact one that was recommended to me I was actually allergic too

Gobbiner17 13-05-2011 17:43

Re: Eczema Psoriasis etc
 
Yes, I got mild psoriasis too but not bad enough to need cream or pills. Gets worse with stress. With me also, most things are related to hay fever. I always had bad hay fever which gradually got better over the years and I no longer took anti-histamines about 20 years ago, cos I don't take pills unless it's a last resort. About 10 years ago, I had my first and last flu jab. The following summer I got a lot of prickly heat and my psoriasis flared up. This continued every summer and I got some ecszema again. Eventually I went to the doctors and got anti-histamines again which cured everything. So instead of hay fever, something in the flu jab triggered off the other things, but the cure for hay fever cured the psoriasis, eczema and prickly heat. Amazing how it was all linked together.


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