Accrington Web - FANs not criminals!!!!

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mab	30-08-2010 10:05

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 841724)

Whilst some have defended the police, no-one has said why fans were subjected to walk through a scowling bunch of em, lined across the top of Livingstone Rd, before the match, what NEED was there fer that action?:(

I would think cashy that with Livingston Rd being the main rout to the club and away end this would have been deemed nessesary BY THE POLICE AND OUT OF THE CLUBS CONTROL imho.

cashman

30-08-2010 10:12

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mab (Post 841729)

I would think cashy that with Livingston Rd being the main rout to the club and away end this would have been deemed nessesary BY THE POLICE AND OUT OF THE CLUBS CONTROL imho.

Probably so mab, but these clowns must have been briefed by someone surely, accrington fans have no reputation that i'm aware of fer aggro, plus fer a big club Newcastle fans are pretty good, having had much interaction wi em oer the years, its what i have have found.;)

ROI	30-08-2010 12:09

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Inside grounds police usually take directives from chief home stewards as they have the inside knowledge of match day at their grounds particualrly were the home fans are concerned,as happened on wednesday police were not regular police that attend the Crown Ground[not many are ] and so would be going off info. given by stewards,not for one minute condoning police action but some home stewards should have expressed more what happens week in week out on the Clayton end and taken control.

Bagpuss

30-08-2010 12:33

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by yonmon (Post 841727)

Whichever was the case...this Unnamed Supremo made a grave error in judgement... his or her strategy misfired!. and we are once more left with a cloud of mistrust and confusion hanging over all concerned Supporters of Accrington Stanley !.
This must never be allowed to happen again !

And because of this I will no longer be taking my son to Stanley because who can say when the next time stewards will attack the fans wll occur?.

DAV007

30-08-2010 12:36

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outback Ozzy (Post 841694)

DAV007 I really do have to take issue with this statement.

FACT - till rolls were thrown after the start of the second half.

a tiny number in comparison to the starting of the game and the start of the second half.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outback Ozzy (Post 841694)

FACT - a message was tannoyed around the ground after the start of the second half to cease throwing till rolls. FACT also this wasn't heard on the Clayton End - which in effect is a club problem.

correct. as previously stated, we couldnt hear the 50 50 draw numbers at half time nevermind an announcement when the game was about to start

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outback Ozzy (Post 841694)

FACT - I know Jase polices the Ultras with a passion and his mantra is for a loud proud bunch of supporters who are - in the main - law abiding and peaceful. A policy I support whole heartedly.
FACT - were the stewards at the Clayton End, club stewards or hired help? You don't answer this one.

I dont know any of the current stewards, but I would presume they where hired as they where new faces and had no iunderstanding of the ground and fans

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outback Ozzy (Post 841694)

FACT - quite clearly you have never stewarded a game in your life. Try it, even at Accy it is not always that easy.

WOW, you know about my life.
Wel I have been a steward at football, and I have been a head steward at events.
Its a pathetic job, and something most people do to either A. get in the ground for free or B fulfill their egos.
Most people did it for A, the ones who did it for B are the ones who have been doing it for along time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outback Ozzy (Post 841694)

Whilst I support Jase and the Ultras for all they do at home and away matches, get off the stewards backs. Yes they may be paid 'washers', but without them, the town of Accrington would not have a football club, because they are a legal requirement - FACT.

Im not disputing this.
The best and most respected stewards are seen not heard.

But lets not forget the biggest FACT

the police and stewards where useless and caused the trouble which occured after the game.

katei77

30-08-2010 13:55

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROI (Post 841760)

If you look back at my eailer posts you will see that in the events of me be grapped by a police officer that one of our stewards made it very clear and not just verbal to the officer that i was allow through to the area to untie the sir bobby flag but did that officer listen to our own stewards NO!
For his troubles of defening his fans he was taken over the pitch side wall onto wall and told by the officer he was off now off duty

So to blame stewards for not giving the rite infor to the police in this case is wrong

If the police will not listen to our own stewards what hope do the fans have?

smudgie

30-08-2010 15:46

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

I think the comments about people not hearing the tannoy system re: stop throwing the paper are a little wide of the mark.

I was bang in the middle of the Clayton End and heard it clear as anything.

Like with anything there are 2 sides to any story, and this incident is no different.

Agreed the Policing and Stewarding was WAY Over the top for a game of this nature, we where all happily singing and chanting before the game in the crown literally next to each other and there was no problem.

But no doubt in my opinion some of the actions of the Ultra's left abit to be desired.

ROI	30-08-2010 17:08

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Katei what happened to you was wrong and fair play to the steward for trying to do his job and as i wrote in my post i don''t condone the action of the police, but i still stand by my original post that info.would or should have been given to the police particularly from chief stewards/safety officers before/during and after the match .Please don't misunderstand me on this i know that some police think they are a law unto themselves and acting like robocop means they have earned their paycheque but i still can't help thinking that if chief stewards etc. had took more control of the situation things might have been different, as i said in my earlier post the police usually act on info. given by the home chief stewards wether this match was different i don't know

katei77

30-08-2010 17:28

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

i agreed sumwhere along the line the rite infor was not given to outside stewards and the police

Complaint!

its the only way we can make any headway with the club.......the reason for getting the FSF on board is not only due to what happened with the NUFC game but the mounting stewarding/police problems at home and away games over the last 2 seasons.

we can all sit and moan about it.....i have done for months but unless we get ppls complaints in writing we cant take this to the rite bodies and say look we have a problem and we need it sorting

the complaints will also be helpful in court to show that other fans felt the stewards/police over reacted on the nite

we have a chance now with the FSF on board to work with the club and try and sort these problems

Outback Ozzy

30-08-2010 23:15

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by smudgie (Post 841787)

I think the comments about people not hearing the tannoy system re: stop throwing the paper are a little wide of the mark.

I was bang in the middle of the Clayton End and heard it clear as anything.

Well DAV007 what have you to say to this?

BTW I stand corrected re having been a steward. But my previous statement re stewards on the Clayton End, if you did not recognise them, this would indicate they like the majority of the police were hired help and not club stewards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAV007 (Post 841765)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outback Ozzy (Post 841694)

FACT - till rolls were thrown after the start of the second half.

a tiny number in comparison to the starting of the game and the start of the second half.

It does not matter how many were thrown after the game had restarted, the perpetrator whoever it was, was committing an offence!

DAV007

31-08-2010 07:26

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

My friends and I must be hard of hearing.

cashman

31-08-2010 08:20

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Depends where ya are i reckon on Clayton End, we hear the tannoy SOMETIMES, then many times NOTHING, n we stand left behind goal. maybe intermittent fault.:confused:

yonmon

31-08-2010 10:30

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Tannoy functions ?, Till Rolls ?, Banners ?, Police Horses ?, Stewards who used to be Stewards but are no longer Stewards ?, and who might be Stanley Stewards or 'Bought-in' Stewards ?,Over-zealous Policemen and Policewomen who might be Local or from the North-East ?..
Club Safety Officer (s), their function, and whether or not this was fulfilled ?...etc...etc...

All are secondary to the main thrust of this thread which, in my humble opinion is, that again by inadequate Management, this time of an important Game, those at the Club responsible for constructing a strategy to deal successfully with this situation have once more demonstrated inadequacies which have resulted in abject failure to direct and maintain good-order and stirred up
dismay, disappointment, and a strong measure of anger amongst it's Supporters.

If the past is anything to judge by, I fear that little will be learnt by Club Officials from this episode to prevent a similar occurence at some point in the future.although I fervently hope that I am wrong in this prediction !. and unlike the Club I openly express the real sadness felt when hearing of the Physical and Emotional injuries suffered by Stanley Fans last Wednesday evening !.

cmonstanley

31-08-2010 11:13

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

the thing is theres always been a fault on the tannoy on the clayton end on the left hand side i could never hear it and that was 2 and a half years ago:confused:

Willie Miller

31-08-2010 11:34

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Thanks for all the support, I have been in contact with the FSF & they are appointing a solicitor as we speak. I was right in my concern about Danny being led away & they wouldn't tell me why. I was wrong in my actions although the police put their hands on me first.

Danny & I had just spent 36 hours, sewing, painting & displaying a massive pre game display. We also both did all 63 games last year & barring some shenanigans at Crewe & Cheltenham, nothing happened.

I urge the support to stick together & not fight over this issue. Its done, lessons will be learnt from our end on how to handle a similar situation. I don't know if the club, stewards or police will learn, nor do I care.

The Clayton End & ASFC is a special place, it shouldn't have been full of police at the end of a game. We are not hooligans. We started SU to encourage loud, passionate, unique support. It is not everyone's cup of tea but it is certainly better than many similar aged supporters at other clubs who look to "Football Factory" for inspiration. Who stand making V signs to the away support for 90 minutes & who throw stuff at away supporters coaches.

I will take any punishment firmly on the chin, as will Danny, but I am hopeful that a football banning order will not be made.

If it is I hope that the colour & noise created by the SU & the Clayton End will carry on until I am back in 2013.

Love you all, live life & prosper.

PS Any character references, get out of jail free cards, help, advice, cakes with "files" in. Can you send to [email protected]

lancsdave

31-08-2010 11:37

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willie Miller (Post 841928)

.

PS Any character references, get out of jail free cards, help, advice, cakes with "files" in. Can you send to [email protected]

FREE JASE t-shirt any good :D

CEF	31-08-2010 11:39

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAV007 (Post 840914)

CEF

your new on here and your clearly a steward

you talk alot of crap

no one was drunk

20 or 30 people where not running at the police, they where climbing over chairs, walking down steps, ducking under bars - you make it sound like a stampede

no one ran at any stewards, the stewards decided to get involved on their own accord

There is a difference between backing a blokes character and condoning illegal activity.
There is also a commercial interest, as the club potentially could lose alot of fans from a young generation, this would also have a knock on effect on the teams performance as their is a direct link towards the boost the players recieve from the fans noise and the intimidation an away keeper/player feels playing in front of the clayton end.

intimidation of away players and officials is a positive thing, it occurs at every football ground to varying degrees.
Never get a penalty at old trafford, anfield or stoke?
pleas dont link intimidation to throwing till rolls, again incase you didnt read it, the till rolls where designed to leave an effect in the goal nets with the rolls hanging down, as seen in many football grounds across europe. It looks impressive.

Its convienent and 100% false for the police/stewards to link till roll throwing to an incient 40 minutes later, which the police and stewards instigated.

one thing the new stewards have been unable to understand or accept, the ultras and the fans in general at accrington self govern and sort out any problems.
This is a unique positive set up.

Dont forget, stewards are their to act as police on the cheap, collect their minimum wage, do a fake NVQ and fulfil their egos.

btw - i just like everyone else was searched by a line of stewards going into the ground. they are useless.

pathetic.

I would love to meet you.

Hi DAV007

I hope everything i have posted isn't crap as i did mention that i hope that Jase & Danny manage not to get banned and that if anyone was mistreated by the officials then they should report them

I am not a steward sorry to disappoint and i have no issue with the original throwing of till rolls it did indeed look pretty impressive. I posted what i actually saw on the night each person has a different account and that makes for a healthy debate

DAV007

31-08-2010 12:52

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

CEF

fair point.
Im happy to stand corrected.

choirboy

31-08-2010 18:28

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

I was at the Newcastle match last Wednesday and stayed on singing with the Ultras after the match and saw the distressing scenes that produced a very sour ending to a fabulous night.
I have read every entry on this post and have reflected carefully over the last few days.
The main point that I would like to comment on is that we have to look at the CONTEXT of the events during the evening and how this affects people's behaviour.

Context;
1) BIG GAME - Possibly the biggest game in Stanley's modern history along with the Fulham match last season. Everyone at the club; officials, staff, management and players and many fans, especially some of the Ultras, had worked very hard to get Accrington Stanley seen in the public TV domain noticed in a POSITITVE way. (Read some of the comments by Newcastle supporters on their websites which were very complimentary.)
2) PASSION - Passions run high at football matches and none more so than amongst the Ultras who put so much into their support. (Pound for pound they must be just about the best supporters in the land.)
3) STEWARDING AND POLICING - Extra stewards and police were brought in. In my view there seemed to be an overreaction by some stewards and some police who are not usually at Stanley matches.
4) Finally BEHAVIOUR - Bearing in mind the first two points - BIG GAME atmosphere and PASSION, Behaviour is easily changed both individuallyand as a group.

My Conclusions;
a) A few individuals in the Ultras may have behaved a bit too enthusiastically, eg. throwing a few till rolls during the match. Surely such a small amount of silliness could have been tolerated.
b) Some police and Stewards too were affected by the same atmospheric factors and similarly went over the top, OTT, in the way they treated some of the fans.
c) The result to one attempted "questioning" of a fan was a total escalation into unnecessary mayhem.

Lessons to learn;
Ultras – Better to have no till roll throwing and definitely no smoke flares. Also don’t get involved if anything kicks off even the smallest problem.
ASFC – Club stewards must be allowed to be “In charge” and to fully brief any additional stewards / police before the match. It should also be the ASFC senior stewards who make any decisions about approaching individual supporters.
Police and Additional Stewards – Learn to apply some common sense and respect the people who they are supposed to be helping. ie The fans.

I was in the middle of the Clayton End and stayed there singing and blowing my horn until the police came over the wall as the real fuss was going on. One LARGE policemen laid a hand on my back and rudely told me to leave the ground. I had to ask him politly THREE times to take his hand off me before I would move. In my opinion he was unnecessarilly rude and disrespectful to a fan who had done absolutley no wrong. He did not offer any kind of apology. As I deprted through the gates I was nearly trodden on by an even larger Police horse!
I hope the the Ultra lads who have been charged are treated fairly and that they receive no banning orders. I think a warning not to get involved in the future should be sufficient.

cashman

31-08-2010 18:37

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

i hope ya put these events that happened to ya mate in n e-mail to the link jase put up?;)

lancsdave

31-08-2010 21:37

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Article on Telegraph website which also gives a couple of quotes from the club
Stanley fans rally round accused supporters' group leader (From Lancashire Telegraph)

Chimer

31-08-2010 21:52

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Choirboy is just about spot on. As a southern exile, my rare pilgrimage to the frozen north (with the missus) was made fantastic by the Ultras' efforts. For Jase to be banned would be a serious blow to ASFC as a whole.

We didn't hang about after the game (my throat was a bit dry!) so we have nothing to offer the defence. The only thing I would add to Choirboy's analysis is to note that the Ultras are a bunch of committed individuals plus whoever, pre-teen nutter or boring old git, attaches themselves at the edges for an evening, so can't be controlled - or, therefore, self-policed - as the committed ones might wish.

Imho, the second salvo of till rolls at half time (after the stewards had cleared off the first lot) was unnecessary, the subsequent individual till rolls aimed at their keeper stupid, and the smoke flares moronic and asking for trouble. And I don't like seeing eight-year olds watching the crowd rather than the game, only turning round to wave v-signs at the opposition (especially when they're getting in the way of me seeing the pitch!) On the other hand, the reported post-game performance of police and stewards can't be justified by anything that went before

The overall Ultra effect was still fantastic, and it was a real blow to get home (not till Sunday) and read about the fracas on the board.

Fingers crossed for Jase next week, and all respect for his post above.

cashman

31-08-2010 21:56

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by lancsdave (Post 842149)

Article on Telegraph website which also gives a couple of quotes from the club
Stanley fans rally round accused supporters' group leader (From Lancashire Telegraph)

Whilst i can understand the club are unable to comment on matters that are in the police hands, its lamentable they aint commented on the imported stewards n imported police regarding "WHO" actually briefed these people? who's behavior led to the stuff they are unable to comment on.:rolleyes:

Revived Red

01-09-2010 12:45

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

There is one aspect of all this that no-one has commented on and that is the total inaction of the stewards when the till rolls were being thrown.

For the people sitting near me, it was a huge joke that the stewards simply stood and watched the tills rolls being thrown before the game and at half-time. Their attempt to clear them away was slow and laughable. Why were the stewards not near/in the Clayton End to prevent the till rolls being thrown?

Surely prevention is always better than cure.

Bagpuss

01-09-2010 16:40

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revived Red (Post 842251)

There is one aspect of all this that no-one has commented on and that is the total inaction of the stewards when the till rolls were being thrown.

Because permission was given to throw till rolls before play started.

Revived Red

01-09-2010 18:11

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bagpuss (Post 842277)

Because permission was given to throw till rolls before play started.

I realise that. It was the lack of action to clear them away that I was referring to.

VALAIRIAN

07-09-2010 19:03

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Just want to wish the SU2 the best of luck tomorrow, but I do not think it will be sorted on the day, it may take a while :(

dabeast

07-09-2010 20:43

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Same here Joe - good luck fellas

cashman

07-09-2010 20:56

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Best of British lads.;)

Doug	07-09-2010 23:57

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Forever Red…..Believe. Stay Proud Lads; If there’s justice you’ll walk free and the rest of us can have faith in those we trust. On,Stanley On!

sparkie

08-09-2010 11:16

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Well having just been present for Danny's court appearance I can inform you all that he pleady guilty to the offence of throwing a till roll and after atound 30 mins deliberations, was given a fine and did NOT receive a banning order.

Jason has yet to go in

mab	08-09-2010 11:25

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

:D Thanks sparkie!!! Good news for achange glad nobannind order! good luck WM:)

sparkie

08-09-2010 11:27

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Jase plans to plead not guilty so his case is likely to be referred to county court for trial.

VALAIRIAN

08-09-2010 11:28

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparkie (Post 843507)

Well having just been present for Danny's court appearance I can inform you all that he pleady guilty to the offence of throwing a till roll and after atound 30 mins deliberations, was given a fine and did NOT receive a banning order.

Jason has yet to go in

Good news for Danny.... No banning order that is.

Tealeaf

08-09-2010 11:29

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparkie (Post 843511)

Jase plans to plead not guilty so his case is likely to be referred to county court for trial.

You mean Crown Court?

Greeny

08-09-2010 11:55

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Glad to here the better news, but it should never have got as far as this...pathetic . A waste of tax payers money.

Exile on Spencer St

08-09-2010 12:10

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Unfortunately there are a lot of people in this country who's jobs depend on wasting public money, not least in the Criminal Justice Industry.
I know he is innocent, but I just hope Jason has been well advised about pleading not guilty

cashman

08-09-2010 14:05

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exile on Spencer St (Post 843519)

would imagine he has, just n assumption but think if jase had been weighed off at Magistrates, due to being on different charges to danny......... they would have had no choice but to issue a banning order? so if thats the score, i can understand the logic! hope it goes well fer him, cos its a risky step.IMHO.

Alvin the chipmunk

08-09-2010 14:21

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

If Jase had pleaded guilty today he would have been banned...so the adjournment was the only logical course of action really. Now its up to the Police to justify themselves in Blackburn Magistrates.

cashman

08-09-2010 14:35

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alvin the chipmunk (Post 843535)

If Jase had pleaded guilty today he would have been banned...so the adjournment was the only logical course of action really. Now its up to the Police to justify themselves in Blackburn Magistrates.

Don't get that bit Alvin?:confused: surely impossible to go from one magistrates court to another? must be a higher court as far as i'm aware.:confused:

sparkie

08-09-2010 14:59

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tealeaf (Post 843514)

You mean Crown Court?

Yeah sorry Crown Court.

Stanleymad

08-09-2010 16:28

Re: FANs not criminals!!!!

To err caution thread has been temporarily closed for now as jason's matter has been referred to crown court we don't want to be hampering his case to be cleared by steering the discussion in any wrong context or media haunt. I will message Jason to see what he wants to do with the thread and moderations regarding this matter will re open or post subject to jase's descion later.

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