Tony Blair Mark Two.

[shakermaker]

With respect Cyfr, a large amount of people have had a very good experience with the NHS (well, as good as it can get when you're ill) in the last 10 years. My family included in that.

[andrewb]

Of course they will, and im not saying those who get seriously ill don't get treatment, they do, and they get it fast. But for moderate things, I mean im not dieing, nothing seems to get done because it has no priority.

[Stanaccy]

The main fault I have with Blairs health policy and most public service policie are the PFIs or privatisation by another name.

This was started by Thatcher in the late 80s with competitve tendering. It cuts wages and devalues employees, thereby chucking the pride in ones job out the window (hospital cleaners is a prime example).

Shaker is right Northern Ireland will be one of Blair's major successes. As will the shifting of a large percentage of kids out of poverty, maintaining high employment, (Cyfr how you can say Thatcher built a good solid economic base is beyond me, 3 million unemployed, the ruination of the manufacturing base and years of boom and bust is not a solid platform.)

It is a pity that more social policies haven't been produced, tax credits could have been taken further and inclusive housing would help cool down the housing market but I am just an old cynical socialist. (sorry for our American friends read pinko commie liberal bleeding heart)

[Gayle]

May be he means that it had got down to rock bottom so the only way was up.

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by Stanaccy

(Cyfr how you can say Thatcher built a good solid economic base is beyond me, 3 million unemployed, the ruination of the manufacturing base and years of boom and bust is not a solid platform.)

Find me an economist and show them the economy Blair inherited and i'll eat my hat if they say it was a weak platform.

She turned us in to a majority service sector which is where the money is, not with manufacturing that can be done much cheaper in countries such as China. 3 million unemployed? If it was up to you we'd still have the mines, we'd be losing money by the day mining expensive coal which we could import much cheaper, and we'd have 3million wasteful jobs rather than ones creating prosperity.

[Stanaccy]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

If it was up to you we'd still have the mines, we'd be losing money by the day mining expensive coal which we could import much cheaper, and we'd have 3million wasteful jobs rather than ones creating prosperity.

The mines is only one aspect of the Thatcher era I had major issues with.
In fact a lot of mining areas are still not recovered from the decimation her policies had.

Oh I see service industry ok, 300 folk crammed in a call centre earning minimum wage rather than high paid manufacturing industry, be it mining, steel workers, dockers, car industry given the choice what do you think the individuals concerned would rather do?

With regards to home produced items all things considered it probably is just as competitive to produce them here if you think about the carbon footprint produced.

Funny isn't it even when Thatcher went all people could think about was negatives, just like now. Blair goes and I can think of positives as well as negatives, even though he is an old school tory.

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by Stanaccy

The mines is only one aspect of the Thatcher era I had major issues with.
In fact a lot of mining areas are still not recovered from the decimation her policies had.

Oh I see service industry ok, 300 folk crammed in a call centre earning minimum wage rather than high paid manufacturing industry, be it mining, steel workers, dockers, car industry given the choice what do you think the individuals concerned would rather do?

With regards to home produced items all things considered it probably is just as competitive to produce them here if you think about the carbon footprint produced.

Funny isn't it even when Thatcher went all people could think about was negatives, just like now. Blair goes and I can think of positives as well as negatives, even though he is an old school tory.

I see lots of positives Blair has done.

How come you mentioned only one type of service sector job and yet listed several manufacturing? Not really a fair balance. Of course it works out better to produce them here because of the carbon footprint, but the majority of people buying goods dont care where its from as long as its cheap, which is what we can't compete with here because we pay too high wages for the products people want compared to the likes of china.

[Stanaccy]

I only mentioned call centres because in most of the old high unemployment areas that is all that opened. To cut down on the high turnover they were getting in the mid nineties in the more competitive South East.

Do you really think it is a coincidence that Orange and Sky have there major call centres in the North East of England and South West Scotland?

Or all the ones in the valleys? The only places that have made a relatively decent fist of recovery are Liverpool, Newcastle and Sheffield. Hmm wonder how many tories are on those councils?

[Ianto.W.]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

I see lots of positives Blair has done.

How come you mentioned only one type of service sector job and yet listed several manufacturing? Not really a fair balance. Of course it works out better to produce them here because of the carbon footprint, but the majority of people buying goods dont care where its from as long as its cheap, which is what we can't compete with here because we pay too high wages for the products people want compared to the likes of china.

These things you mention Cyfr on this subject are things that would have happened regardless of who was the prime minister, mundane everyday civil cervice tasks, put in place to suit the financial climate. This country and the rest of Europe the USA, you name it are no longer or will not be general manufacturing bases. The third world led by the most populated country on earth is awash with cheap labour, no government has control of that situation, Tony Blairs failings undoings call it what you will, were his foreign policies, Iraq, Afganistan etc. Great leaders are judged by history, this man did not learen the lessons of history. How many times have this country had a bloody nose in Afganistan in the last two centuries, the Russians got their backsides kicked as we surely will again. The Yanks never learn, and he followed sheeplike behind. The lesson is young man you can not defeat the will of the people to rule themselves, as the yanks learned to their cost in Vietnam, and will find again in Iraq etc.

[steeljack]

Cyfr......one thing to remember about basic economics, service industries contribute absolutley nothing to the "national purse" every tax Pound paid in as income tax by a Civil Servant/Govt employee/teacher/hospital worker/ fireman/street sweeper etc. is just a recycled Pound, previously paid in by a tax payer from an employee of a business that is actually making money (creating something)
let me give you an example .......I work for a company which sells 'widgets' to France and in return the company I work for gives me X Pounds, profits from the products sold from my labour , out of my pay packet I give 20 % to the Govt. as income tax, before I turn over the 20% I mark every note with an X , in due course the X marked note will be given to a public service Govt. employee as a salary , who will in turn pay his/her income tax with the X marked Pound notes as his/her return to the Govt in income tax. ( one of the Pound notes I previously marked with an X) , so how much has the Govt. recieved in tax revenue 1 Pound or 2 ?
maybe a radical idea , but if the folks who recieve monies from the public purse were exempt from paying taxes on their wages (recycled tax monies) we would get a better idea about who is in fact paying for the support of the country and Govt. ...........the workers who actually produce and sell something ,
Seems to me a lot of creative accounting is going on........if every Pound paid in by a genuine (wealth earned) tax payer was marked we could see where the monies end up and how much is recycled bull s++t




p.s. sorry for any reference to Pound notes , my PC is Korean made and only has the $ key

[Billcat]

[quote=bullseyebarb;424656There will always be a certain percentage of people who make poor choices. The rest of us should not be forced into the role of enabler.[/quote]

Exactly who is enabling what? I don't see the sense in that comment.

[Billcat]

Originally Posted by bullseyebarb

We are not getting full value for our tax dollars no matter how you slice it. These things may have begun with the best of intentions but far too often they go off the rails. For example, our public schools, by and large, are a disaster.

Funny, the public schools where I live are quite good. The education I received (and I was hardly alone in this) prepared me to succeed at two of the best universities in the USA.

In any case, if we are not getting full value, how does it follow that the government should do as you advise and cease these activities? Without public schools, road maintenance, garbage hauling, public health initiatives, and the other jobs only the government is equipped to do, you are choosing to live like a third world country. The fortunate thing is that the Libertarian movement makes any other mainstream political party (as messy as they are) look wonderful by comparison. LOL!

[Billcat]

Originally Posted by bullseyebarb

As a libertarian, I certainly have issues with President Bush. However, one must always look at the larger picture and history may not judge him as harshly as you already have. Ditto for Mr. Blair.

I've had a great deal of fun watching Libertarians of late. A remarkably ineffective group, which is about what one would expect from the Libertarians, given their underlying ambivalence about government. My vacation home is in the town of Grafton, NH, which the Free Town Project targeted a couple of years back. For all the big talk, it has been a resounding, massive failure for the Libertarians. BUT - very entertaining, and turning out about how most thinking folks predicted!

Of course, the Free State Project was making big noises about moving enough Libertarians to NH to assert control of the government. Instead, NH voted for Kerry, booted a Libertarian-leaning governor in favor of a Democrat, and kicked out two Republican congressmen.

[Billcat]

Originally Posted by bullseyebarb

As a libertarian, I certainly have issues with President Bush. However, one must always look at the larger picture and history may not judge him as harshly as you already have. Ditto for Mr. Blair.

What accomplishments does Bush have that will ever improve his standing? Nothing significant. He's gotten us mired in Iraq (just as we were mired in Vietnam), saddled our economy with a crippling load of debt, failed in his goal of permanently eliminating estate taxes, alienated allies, and caused his party to lose control of congress. Not to mention the ineptitude of Rumsfeld, Gonzalez, etc.!

Even some of the most distinguished conservative writers in the USA agree. See the following link: http://www.amconmag.com/2006/2006_08_28/article9.html

[bullseyebarb]

Originally Posted by Billcat

Exactly who is enabling what? I don't see the sense in that comment.

Our tax dollars via the Welfare State.