Browser Woes?

[WillowTheWhisp]

I tend to do everything through AOL anyway. If the IE homepage has changed it has only ever been when one of the kids has clicked "make this your homepage" when they've been on a site and it's simple enough to get back to the default page I had in the beginning.

Occasionally I minimise AOL and go direct through IE but that's rare. I'm one of those people who likes to have loads of things going at once - Busman will tell you I have far too many windows open and programs running.

 

[KIPAX]

Ok guys I think we are getting confused a bit. The reason IE ends up having it's home page changed etc. is simple and also the same reason that MS OS's are seen to be insecure. Hackers go for MS.

Absoloutly.. hackers target anything MS more than anything else... Microsoft servers get attacked more than linux servers which is why I host on anything but MS.. the whole world seems to be against Bill Gates and MS so they are the hackers main target

That's it if the same hackers went at Mac, LINUX, or different browsers then they would probablt get an equal amount of problems. This put's MS in a tough position a victim of their own success. Apprently Mozilla based browsers now take up 15% of webusers as this increases so will the 'problems',

I am guessing the 15% figure is from netscape or someone.. certainly not from MS who would give a differnt figure... Also with more people buying PCs with IE already configured then I would say they outnumber the poeple knoledgeable enough to be able to change browsers or even want to

currently it's just not worth the hassle when you can go for MS and get 70% of browsers. I have tried these other browsers but find sites that don't render (yes lazt developers) but I never have a problem with IE ,so I end up going back.

Exactly my point.. IE works ... I am not a great fan of MS and as already stated I wont use there email software which 90% of the population seems to use... But there browser works.. Also as a developer (no i dont make websites) I ahve to see what the majority see...


As for all this about mizlla getting 15% of the market... take a look at the AUG stats for a certain website I run

MS Internet Explorer 604808 92.3 %
Unknown 24658 3.7 %
Mozilla 16113 2.4 %
Safari 3164 0.4 %
Netscape 3152 0.4 %
Opera 2193 0.3 %
Firebird 334 0 %
Konqueror 93 0 %
ANT Fresco 90 0 %
Links 90 0 %


92% MS IE and 8% covers the rest put together.... They are real figures from a real website

 

[entwisi]

It works and its free. How much more value for money do you want?..... you sure your not one of these Bill gates haters only you sure come accross as one.

Free? No its not, It (as MIcrosoft happily admit) is a core componenet of its operating system which certainly costs money.

As for mozila getting an extra 10% of the market.. well according to most stats they dont even have 10% let alone an extra 10%

Always be lies dam lies and stats, I tend to use industry agreed figures published by independant parties. Have a look here http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

Your not even talking a good argument... the only facts you show are pretty useless and even you admit no one would change browsers after reading them.

I think you need to read that carefully. Statistics will not change minds. Useability will. Not having to avoid the latest phishing scam/ buffer overflow etc is just another bonus. With regard to your stats, I am assuming (perhaps you can confirm) that they are for this site, a forum used by Joe Public who without trying to upset anyone are normal users who will probably admit they know very little about IT. If you were to take the stats from somewhere technical like The Register or a site like B3TA the mix would probably be far closer even skewed the other way.

Isn't it a strange fact that despite the majority of web sites are being hosted on Linux by far the majority of attacks are directed at IIS. I have the logs to prove it.

Microsoft believe in security through obscurity. This clearly does not work. *nix was built on model where users are seperated from system. Microsoft seem to be happy for everyone to be admin. Until Microsoft seperate these two there will always be problems. That is why the current figure quoted for the time taken for an unprotected windows box visible on the internet to become a spam zombie riddled with viruses is less than 10 minutes! If you'd like to try the same on my Linux server I'll happily turn off the firewall adn give you the IP. Lets see if you can alter a sample page on my web server ,tell the name of a file on the filesystem in a pre determined place, or send an email from my box.

PS your figure of 93 for Konqueror must be wrong, I'm on here far more than that


Ian

 

[KIPAX]

I think you need to read that carefully. Statistics will not change minds. Useability will.

Thank you.. Thats my argument in a nutshell.. IE works for the vast majority of people.. Hard to argue with that eh

Microsoft believe in security through obscurity. This clearly does not work. *nix was built on model where users are seperated from system.

hence why I have my sites hosted on *nix

PS your figure of 93 for Konqueror must be wrong, I'm on here far more than that

theres no way I can get access to this sites logs and when Roy comes back from Germany if he cares to share you will find he shows the vast majority are IE and he doesnt like IE but his logs will show

Statistics will not change minds. Useability will.

So long as both sides of the debate agree on this then IE wins the day... because it works

 

[WillowTheWhisp]

Found the URL ( site has been taken down but Google cache is your friend)

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:RHLj7aYucsoJ:www.visi.com/~m16/W3C_DOM_conformance_test.html+visi+W3C_DOM_conformance_test&hl=en


Ian

Doesn't the fact that these statistics were taken from Google's cache tend to speak volumes?

 

[entwisi]

So whose site were you quoting? One thing I also forgot until I had hit submit was that your stats show what the browsers report. There are numerous sites that do not work correctly unless your browser identifies as IE5.5 or higher. That is why most decent browser allows you to change what is presented. I use a couple of MSN forums and have my browser identify me as IE6 on XP(rather than the Konqueror on Gentoo Linux) as this makes the site more useable. Unfortunately it screws that stats as well.

You seem to believe that IE is a good browser, I am really sorry for you. Yes it works in that it displays sites, slow and clunky but yes it does work. Not to standards and this then encourages lazy developers which then causes other problems. If we carry on accepting this shoddy workmanship then MIcrosoft will continue to produce it. Look at SP2 as an example. It took over 6 months fot some vunerabilities to be patched. And then in patching these it breaks other quite fundamental things. In the open source community vunerabilities are patched usually the same day. MY system needs next to zero maintainance with a simple cron job that updates overnight.

Our job as responsible techies it to promote standards and choice. The more people that try Firefox et al the better. Even if this means that Microsoft pull their finger out and produce decent software. I spend far too much time fixing other peoples PCs because they have fallen victim to scams/viruses/spyware/malware. Slowly but surely they try the alternatives and my worries cease.

I wish you well with your browser, may you live happily ever after( though I doubt that will be the case )

Ian

 

[KIPAX]

So whose site were you quoting? One thing I also forgot until I had hit submit was that your stats show what the browsers report. There are numerous sites that do not work correctly unless your browser identifies as IE5.5 or higher. That is why most decent browser allows you to change what is presented. I use a couple of MSN forums and have my browser identify me as IE6 on XP(rather than the Konqueror on Gentoo Linux) as this makes the site more useable. Unfortunately it screws that stats as well.

Lets face it.. NO stats are 100% accurate and cant really be relied on .. and I mean NONE! .,.. but they do give you a general autline and even you cant argue hat IE has the vast majority of users... Even if I cam down a few million users and sais 80% its still THE browser used isn't it

You seem to believe that IE is a good browser, I am really sorry for you.

You feel sorry for me..? Please try not to get personal.. if you need to resort to those levels then we can stop the debate here

You seem to believe that IE is a good browser,

I ahve never said that... I think its the right browser for everyday use and it works is what i have been saying.. I also said I use Opera when needed and have other browsers installed... lets not twist words or make things up pleae

Yes it works in that it displays sites, slow and clunky but yes it does work.

The diference in speed is minimal on broadband... hardly even noticable.. Was I still on a 9600 modem I may agree..

Not to standards and this then encourages lazy developers

Now you hit my button
Lazy developers are just that.. the industry is riddled with them and isnt this where I came in? By saying if people go to lengths to make a website that only wors on one browser??? Its not the browsers fault.. its the lazy programmer and you cant blame IE for that... Thats why I ahve NS installed.. its always been better for developing because it renders the page after it gets the code and not while its getting it...

for example a table with no ending will be shown on ie while its loading... sloppy... but on NS it will not be shown because its still looking for end table..

the above is best for a developer... BUT for an end user like most people on here... IE is better because it shows the info they want to see rather than leave them with a blank page..its sloppy and bad practice but it means the user gets to see the web page

Our job as responsible techies it to promote standards and choice.

TBH ten years ago I would ahve agreed with you... I also used to fight spammers and trolls....

The more people that try Firefox et al the better. Even if this means that Microsoft pull their finger out and produce decent software. I spend far too much time fixing other peoples PCs because they have fallen victim to scams/viruses/spyware/malware. Slowly but surely they try the alternatives and my worries cease.

If you charge to fix PCs then arnt you cutting your own throat?

I wish you well with your browser, may you live happily ever after( though I doubt that will be the case )

Well I ahve been using it for more years than i care to recall... i cant see why its going to give me problems any time soon.. certainly reading all these statistis and guess what.. even after reading them IE is still working fine

 

[entwisi]

Yes, IE is the browser being used at the moment. It wasn't always like that though and with a bit of help it may soon be back on a more even keel. Personally I would love to see a 3 way split between IE, Mozilla and Opera with others taking a nice 10% or so share.

Who said I charge to fix PC's? I don't , I do it for friends because they are exactly that. They help me when I need something.

If you would like to see a fast rendering browser have a look at Dillo. OK, not very featureful as yet but geesh it flies! Oh and never fight trolls, they go away on their own. Or am I eating my own medicine here

Lazy developers get away with being that because of IE. If you ran a site and people couldn't see it because you coded it incorrectly then you wouldn't get any customers. If IE met these standards then the world would be a brave new place. More often than not it is down to the people who design the sites(not necessarily those who code it) that just don't understand what the requirements are.

Ian

 

[KIPAX]

Yes, IE is the browser being used at the moment. It wasn't always like that though and with a bit of help it may soon be back on a more even keel.

My atari website used to get IE as least used browser

Who said I charge to fix PC's? I don't , I do it for friends because they are exactly that. They help me when I need something.

no one as far as I can see.... I said if .. *IF* I cant see anyone saying you do.

 

[WillowTheWhisp]

Coming back to the website designers and something Ifty said a while back. Could it not simply be that some people are learning and not that they are lazy? To learn they have to start somewhere and as the most likely have IE then they will see what they have created via IE ( as will the majority of people viewing it). Perhaps (like my little AOL hometown offering) they are not out to reach vast armies of customers but merely learning how to do something by hands on experience. I know that the only way I learn anything is by attempting to do it. I could read any number of instructions but they go straight through my brain, however if I do something then I stand a better chance of remembering how it's done. (as with emoticon creation which is something I enjoy doing) As they learn more then they will become more skilled and more aware of others browsers and how things are seen via them.

When I did a teacher training course I remember it being illustrated that people immediately absorb about 10% of what you tell them if you simply speak to them, about 20% of it if they are involved in discussion, but 80% if there is practical hands on experience. Oh drat, there go statististics again!

 

[KIPAX]

We are talking about profesionals.. or so called profesionals who pretend to know what there doing and produce a website that only works on some browsers.. thats lazy when with a bit more effort they could produce a website that works on all browsers..

Thats why we are reffering to them as developers... we aint really on about personal sites made with a wysiwyg toy

Also the point quite rightly being made by the other side is that if IE was to conform to the rules then you would find it harder to make a bad website because IE lets you produce a bad one while browsers like netscape doesnt.. hence why i use netscape for development

 

[WillowTheWhisp]

I realise AOLhometown is a WYSIWYG "toy" as you put it - used simply because it's:
a) there
b) quick
c) easy

but that doesn't mean that someone like me wouldn't prefer to create something more customised and specific. The main reason why I never get round to it is lack of time, and the more I post on Accyweb the less time I have.

It's a case of stepping stones. Each one leading to a more ambitious one.

 

[KIPAX]

eeerm I know....

 

[Gobsmacked]

In the case of certain browsers suffering more from viruses it boils down to the barn door syndrome. The bigger it is, the easier it is to hit.