Hanging

Don't really know what it's like in prisons over here except to say there is over-crowding and a big problem with drugs/AIDS. This from TV reports not any personal experience or info from friends.

I suppose the Human Rights brigade have made life cushier for many in UK jails -stories heard of peoples rights to have children even when in for life etc. The SKY exposée earlier this year was pretty shocking - very lax security and lack of discipline. Perhaps they could do with a few of our old nuns from school to get them behaving!:D
 
mobertol said:
Don't really know what it's like in prisons over here except to say there is over-crowding and a big problem with drugs/AIDS. This from TV reports not any personal experience or info from friends.

I suppose the Human Rights brigade have made life cushier for many in UK jails -stories heard of peoples rights to have children even when in for life etc. The SKY exposée earlier this year was pretty shocking - very lax security and lack of discipline. Perhaps they could do with a few of our old nuns from school to get them behaving!:D
Click to expand...
If it wasn't so serious I too would find it funny
 
jaysay said:
A couple of friends of mine are Magistrates, and they both went on a visit to Lancaster Farm, Young offenders institute. They both came to the conclusion that this was no deterrent what so ever, was like a 5 star hotel to some of them and the majority would rather be there than at home. This is significant with our penal system throughout, they are better treated than pensioners, thus the usual statement I can do the time stood on my head, now if we made the penal service a place where no body wants to return we'd be getting somewhere, I'm sure that criminals are not given the same consideration in Italy or anywhere else for that matter, because all the hand wringing woolly headed liberals live in good old Britain
Click to expand...

In order to understand deterrance, or at least say something intelligent about it, one has to look at the rate of recidivism. Now, as the US jails are so much more punishment oriented than those in the UK, then one would expect fewer returnees. If UK jails are so cushy, one would think that petty criminals ... say small-time robbers ... would be lining up to get back in as the winter weather approaches. And, of course, the opposite would be true in the US. Strange to say, US recidivism rates are way higher than those in Britain.:confused: For the crime of robbery, for example, US recidivism rates are as high as 70%:eek: The much lower recidivism rate in the UK has been attributed, in many studies, to the British focus on rehabilitation rather than on punishment.

Don't expect this argument to have much effect on the hang 'em high, bring back the lash crowd on here ... they seem to be beyond reason. It doesn't seem to matter to them that in Britain, and Canada for that matter, crime rates and recidivism rates are dropping owing to policies focussing on education and rehabilitation, rather than on punishment and deterrant.

Someone mentioned in an earlier post that the UK had 5 murders over the holiday season (ok, Christmas;)) ... holy feces:eek: FIVE!!!!!!!!!!! In the Land of the Free, and the Home of the Electric Chair, this total reflects a slow wednesday in Detroit.
 
jaysay said:
Well it will never be brought back claytonx, it wouldn't be so bad if murderer WERE sent down for life, I can never understand any judge saying I sentence you to life in prison and you'll serve a minimum of, say, 15 years, utter nonsense, say what you like about the American justice system, they do make the punishment fit the crime, pity we done follow suit here
Click to expand...

Yes they may be tough on crime but they still have massive levels of crime including murder - so basically the death sentence doesn't deter crime. The death sentence only satisfies those who think that terminating someone's life punishes them - it only gives them their pain in a condensed dose, why not let them suffer in prison for life, surely ultimately that is more of a punishment.
 
Eric said:
Don't expect this argument to have much effect on the hang 'em high, bring back the lash crowd on here ... they seem to be beyond reason. It doesn't seem to matter to them that in Britain, and Canada for that matter, crime rates and recidivism rates are dropping owing to policies focussing on education and rehabilitation, rather than on punishment and deterrant.
Click to expand...

Great point -there has to be punishment of course, loss of freedom for many would be punishment enough. (It would for me anyway!)

Rehabilitation and education are fundamental if we expect offenders to be able to re-enter society and take up jobs. It is particularly hard for young people to manage this if they have no support network. Would you employ someone with a record or a person who has never offended? Time is one thing people have on their hands while in prison - it should be used constructively, learning useful skills and improving the possibility for an offender to become a full member of society once their sentence is completed.
 
Eric said:
In order to understand deterrance, or at least say something intelligent about it, one has to look at the rate of recidivism. Now, as the US jails are so much more punishment oriented than those in the UK, then one would expect fewer returnees. If UK jails are so cushy, one would think that petty criminals ... say small-time robbers ... would be lining up to get back in as the winter weather approaches. And, of course, the opposite would be true in the US. Strange to say, US recidivism rates are way higher than those in Britain.:confused: For the crime of robbery, for example, US recidivism rates are as high as 70%:eek: The much lower recidivism rate in the UK has been attributed, in many studies, to the British focus on rehabilitation rather than on punishment.

Don't expect this argument to have much effect on the hang 'em high, bring back the lash crowd on here ... they seem to be beyond reason. It doesn't seem to matter to them that in Britain, and Canada for that matter, crime rates and recidivism rates are dropping owing to policies focussing on education and rehabilitation, rather than on punishment and deterrant.

Someone mentioned in an earlier post that the UK had 5 murders over the holiday season (ok, Christmas;)) ... holy feces:eek: FIVE!!!!!!!!!!! In the Land of the Free, and the Home of the Electric Chair, this total reflects a slow wednesday in Detroit.
Click to expand...

Don't you think that it's the influence of American culture that is influencing the gang crime in this country that is responsible for the increase in shootings and stabbings etc?
 
kestrelx said:
Yes they may be tough on crime but they still have massive levels of crime including murder - so basically the death sentence doesn't deter crime. The death sentence only satisfies those who think that terminating someone's life punishes them - it only gives them their pain in a condensed dose, why not let them suffer in prison for life, surely ultimately that is more of a punishment.
Click to expand...
Oh ya great, keeping Ian Huntley behind bars is costing £1 million per year, he has every luxury he wants three square a day, the warders call him either Sir or Mr Huntley, life's a dream, now if the git was breaking rocks 10 hours a day and locked in his cell for the other 14 without any toys or TV on bread and water, then ya okay that would be fine, but in britain's butlins holiday camp prisons, punishment, don't make me laugh my lips are chapped
 
kestrelx said:
Don't you think that it's the influence of American culture that is influencing the gang crime in this country that is responsible for the increase in shootings and stabbings etc?
Click to expand...
The influence comes from the yardie gangs from the caribbean, every been down peckham south London:rolleyes:
 
kestrelx said:
Don't you think that it's the influence of American culture that is influencing the gang crime in this country that is responsible for the increase in shootings and stabbings etc?
Click to expand...

You have a point there, and Eric you are talking a lot of sense. Please continue.

I would like to mention a case from personal experience and see what you think. I have visited five prisons in my time: Wormwood Scrubs, Dartmoor, Kingston (Portsmouth), Portland (Dorset) and Channings Wood (Devon) as a school friend of my partner was gaoled for life in the mid 1970s for stabbing his mother in law with whom he was having an affair at the time. He was still in prison in the 1990s so not all murderers get out after 10 or 12 years as has been suggested. Eventually he was sent to one of the prisons on the IOW, Parkhurst I think, where we did not visit him. He was hanged eventually... by his own hand.

Now I don't know what mental problems he had, as I didn't know him before he went to prison, but I'm sure they didn't improve while he was inside. I also don't know why he was inside for so long. I think most murderers must have some degree of instability to do what they do.

My question is - would it have been better to hang him on day 1 rather than try to sort him out? I don't agree with a life for a life but you can never tell whether someone will respond to rehabilitation attempts before they start.
 
susie123 said:
You have a point there, and Eric you are talking a lot of sense. Please continue.

I would like to mention a case from personal experience and see what you think. I have visited five prisons in my time: Wormwood Scrubs, Dartmoor, Kingston (Portsmouth), Portland (Dorset) and Channings Wood (Devon) as a school friend of my partner was gaoled for life in the mid 1970s for stabbing his mother in law with whom he was having an affair at the time. He was still in prison in the 1990s so not all murderers get out after 10 or 12 years as has been suggested. Eventually he was sent to one of the prisons on the IOW, Parkhurst I think, where we did not visit him. He was hanged eventually... by his own hand.

Now I don't know what mental problems he had, as I didn't know him before he went to prison, but I'm sure they didn't improve while he was inside. I also don't know why he was inside for so long. I think most murderers must have some degree of instability to do what they do.

My question is - would it have been better to hang him on day 1 rather than try to sort him out? I don't agree with a life for a life but you can never tell whether someone will respond to rehabilitation attempts before they start.
Click to expand...

Susie, hon, it's not that I'm talking sense. The whole issue is a no brainer ... with wrinkles of course. Those who argue that the death penalty is a deterrent are obviously unable to marshall readilly available data into an inevitable argument that a deterrent it is not. And those who argue that it should be employed in order to save money ... well, I leave you to your own conclusions.

And I was interested to read that there is a Kingston Prison in Portsmouth. Kingston Pen, the oldest in English Canada, is in Portsmouth Village, Kingston.

Inside Kingston Pen (1994) - YouTube

Don't look much like a luxury hotel to me.:rolleyes:
 
I mentioned Stefan Kiszko earlier in this thread. His life in prison was anything but a luxury. He was attacked on several occasions and constantly treated with contempt, not only by his fellow prisoners but also the guards. He endured 16 years of this until his release. He did not last long on the outside, probably because of the emotional scars of his life in prison. Oh, and let's not forget he was an innocent man.
 
jaysay said:
The influence comes from the yardie gangs from the caribbean, every been down peckham south London:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Well we learn something everyday.. never would have reckoned the taxi driver who shot dead 12 people in Cumbria last year was a yardie! :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
jaysay said:
Oh ya great, keeping Ian Huntley behind bars is costing £1 million per year, he has every luxury he wants three square a day, the warders call him either Sir or Mr Huntley, life's a dream, now if the git was breaking rocks 10 hours a day and locked in his cell for the other 14 without any toys or TV on bread and water, then ya okay that would be fine, but in britain's butlins holiday camp prisons, punishment, don't make me laugh my lips are chapped
Click to expand...

I'm not saying they should have luxury's, I think they should take them away and make them think about what deeds they did to get them in there! Giving them TV and other luxury's just helps them take their mind off what they have done. However even with toys living in a cell would still make him think about what he'd done to some degree. But I don't know what medications they give him to help him cope - perhaps he is given tranqulizers on a daily basis or something?
 
jaysay said:
The influence comes from the yardie gangs from the caribbean, every been down peckham south London:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Yardie gangs partly and also that links in with American Hip- Hop Gang culture - baggy jeans, puffa jackets and base-ball caps - they are all singing from the same rap sheet!
 
kestrelx said:
I'm not saying they should have luxury's, I think they should take them away and make them think about what deeds they did to get them in there! Giving them TV and other luxury's just helps them take their mind off what they have done. However even with toys living in a cell would still make him think about what he'd done to some degree. But I don't know what medications they give him to help him cope - perhaps he is given tranqulizers on a daily basis or something?
Click to expand...
Ya sadly though the two little girls that Huntley murdered, will never get time to reflect on anything, just their parents missing their children and grandchildren growing up
 
kestrelx said:
Yardie gangs partly and also that links in with American Hip- Hop Gang culture - baggy jeans, puffa jackets and base-ball caps - they are all singing from the same rap sheet!
Click to expand...

I've been giving some thought to this ... you posed the question earlier. I don't know if I can see a correspondence, but the American media is a powerful institution. (I almost said "American culture":rolleyes:, that's a nice oxymoron:D) I think one could argue that the American media is a weapon of mass destruction, insinuating itself into every part of the planet. The more-or-less glamorization of the gang culture makes it attractive to young people all over the world. The trivialization of crime ... it becomes a plot line ... and its sanitization and realistic presentation make it attractive. The fad of reality shows seems to be convincing people that what they see on TV is real, rather than merely realistic. In some ways the US media creates its own realities: they lose the war in Viet Nam, but they win the same war in Hollywood (with a little help from Stalone:rolleyes:) I don't believe it is the intention of the script writers to make crime attractive, but impressionable youth might see it that way. I don't believe that musicians mean to foment violence, but that seems to be what happens. Problem is, victims of movie portrayals of drive by shooting get up, grab a coffee, take their pay cheque and go home. In real life, they end up on a slab; and numerous lives are ruined in the process.
 
In time, the convicted murderer will adjust to their incarceration and find within its limitations, time when they feel joy, times when they laugh, talk to their family, etc., but as the victim, no more are such opportunities available to them. Those that are pro death penalty feel it is society’s responsibility to step in and be the voice of the victim and determine what is a just punishment, for the victim not the criminal.

Think of the phrase itself, "life sentence." Does the victim get a "life sentence"? The victim is dead. To serve justice, that person who ended their life should have to pay with their own in order for the scale of justice to remain in balance.

Opponents of capital punishment say, capital punishment is barbaric and cruel and has no place in a civilized society. It denies an individual of due process by imposing irrevocable punishment on them and depriving them from ever benefiting from new technology that may provide later evidence of their innocence.
Murder in any form, by any person, shows a lack of respect for human life. For victims of murder, sparing the life of their killer is the truest form of justice that can be given to them. Opponents of the death penalty feel to kill as a way to "even out" the crime would only justify the act itself. This position is not taken out of sympathy to the convicted murderer but out of respect for his victim in demonstrating that all human life should be of value.My standing on what is a very emotive issue is that if there is no doubt capital punishment should be implemented, our justice system as it stands seems to be weighed very much in favour of the perpetrators of crime and not the victim.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top