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cyfr you aint a tory your just deluding yourself mate, your to good hearted to ever be one.Cyfr said:As for socialism, I can't ever see that happening, i'm just not a far right. I believe that you can use Conservative ideologies to work for everyone not just the rich. I am strongly against just giving people money, but helping people help themselves, now thats something that encourages motivation, you can bring people out of deprivation by helping them help themselves.
CYFR.. same old 80's Tory spin.."Help people help themselves" = ( miners,textile workers,engineers what help did they get?)Cyfr said:i'm just not a far right. I believe that you can use Conservative ideologies to work for everyone not just the rich. I am strongly against just giving people money, but helping people help themselves, now thats something that encourages motivation, you can bring people out of deprivation by helping them help themselves.
"engourage motivation" = (abolish the wages council and the minimum wage to encourage immigrants to work for peanuts )
"bring people out of deprivation" (a deprivation that the Tory Goverment caused,)
"bring people out of deprivation by helping them help themselves" ( get on your bike, work for a wage you can't even live on while the taxpayer will subsides you with social benifits, at the same time subsidising employers, some of these employers just happen to be members of the cabinet!)
you are an old tory mate.. sad thing is you don't even know you are.
I'm sorry but thats just not true. It's not some sort of conspiracy. I can't put right the way Thatcher went about doing things and as someone said, the unemployment isn't wholely her fault anyway.Mancie said:
Face up to reality, the Conservative party is different now, you don't need to have the same old unrational views on the party because of what one of the leaders did some two decades ago.
The same way I don't burn New Labour at the stake for their past decisions, although I am happy to point out where I think old Labour went wrong, I don't think New Labour are the same beast, at least while we have Blair and Brown in charge. A strong ecnonomic right-wring government like Thatchers was only needed to counter the years of Labour AND Tory socialism in the past (Torys never tried to revserse the effects really).
Nowadays theres no need for extream politics because it's been brought to the center. Fifteen years (or whatever it is) on, you can't call the Conservative party the same beast, the grassroots membership voted Cameron in remember, knowing his 'compassionate conservative' credentials. They voted him by 2:1, over the much more right-wing, 'old Tory'.
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CFR
Unfortunately the Tory party will never be different, they still have the same basic idealogy (and always will have). As for David Cameron having 'compassionate conservative credentials' can a leopard really change its spots.
The Tories will always have the interests of the 'Employers' and the 'Monied Classes' at heart. Look at the way they decried tha minimum wage. I actaully asked Peter Britcliffe (along with the other parliamentary candidates) a question at an open forum meetting brfore the 1997 election, about low apy and the minimum wage. He actaully thought it was ok to pay people extremely low wages - I don't know how he thought they could live on £2.00 an hour (which was the wage rate I quoted as per an advert in Accrington Observer).
Maybe when you go out in to the real world CYR, you will learn just how hard it is for the majority of people in Hyndburn to earn a wage - never mind a decent living wage.
Unfortunately the Tory party will never be different, they still have the same basic idealogy (and always will have). As for David Cameron having 'compassionate conservative credentials' can a leopard really change its spots.
The Tories will always have the interests of the 'Employers' and the 'Monied Classes' at heart. Look at the way they decried tha minimum wage. I actaully asked Peter Britcliffe (along with the other parliamentary candidates) a question at an open forum meetting brfore the 1997 election, about low apy and the minimum wage. He actaully thought it was ok to pay people extremely low wages - I don't know how he thought they could live on £2.00 an hour (which was the wage rate I quoted as per an advert in Accrington Observer).
Maybe when you go out in to the real world CYR, you will learn just how hard it is for the majority of people in Hyndburn to earn a wage - never mind a decent living wage.
Which MP was that?cashman said:
clatonender, what are your comments based on? Of course they can change, look at the past and now, they're completly different. Cameron is fighting a center battle, The last 5 Conservative leaders fought for right-wing policy.
"can a leopard really change its spots."
What sort of question is that, of course it can. Look at all the new modernisers in the Tory party, they helped get Cameron off the starting block as he was once a nobody.
The labour party are no longer the party of the left, are you trying to tell me that party change can't happen? Because it's happened in front of my eyes while I grew up.
Oh and, if Mr Britcliffe did say that, well, what one counciller said back before 1997, dosn't reflect the party as a whole nearly 10 years on.
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Ok, so what Peter Britcliffe said, when he was a parliamentary candidate in 1997, isn't important (or at least as far as you are concerned). If Peter Britcliffe had changed he would be acting on the powers introduced in the 2004 Housing Act, so that private landlords are licensed in Hyndburn. That would be a very local example of 'compassionate Toryism'.
I still maintain that the present Tory leadership are only saying what they think people want to hear - I am sure they haven't changed at all. It is 50 years since I asked my father ( who was an ordinary working man), what was the difference between the parties, and what he said then is still true. The Tories only look after their own kind.
You say that the Labour Party is no longer left wing -are you in touch with the main body of Labour Party members?
I still maintain that the present Tory leadership are only saying what they think people want to hear - I am sure they haven't changed at all. It is 50 years since I asked my father ( who was an ordinary working man), what was the difference between the parties, and what he said then is still true. The Tories only look after their own kind.
You say that the Labour Party is no longer left wing -are you in touch with the main body of Labour Party members?
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It seems to me that there is a crucial difference between the changes that Tony Blair brought to the Labour Party and those that David Cameron is seeking to do with the Conservatives. To show that Labour had really changed he forced it to give up something the Party really cared about, namely Clause 4. The change was painful for Labour but it really did change. With David Cameron what we are seeing is the spin of change - we'll know they've really modernised when they've given up on an outdated policy that they really care about; Europhobia would be a good example, but as they are about to pull out of the organisation that all other European Conservative parties are in it looks like Dave's flunked this one!
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Well, New Labour know all about the'spin of change'....they have used it enough themselves to be able to recognise it.
And what has Europe done for us....precious little from where I stand.......and I for one am against Brussels dictating what we can and cannot do. OK....so you may say that I don't understand the finer points of the EU....so educate me!
And what has Europe done for us....precious little from where I stand.......and I for one am against Brussels dictating what we can and cannot do. OK....so you may say that I don't understand the finer points of the EU....so educate me!
Greg Pope said:
I don't think the bit about Europe was one of Camerons policies? Didn't he say he wanted to pull out of the EPP before he was elected as leader?
Personaly I dislike Europe for anything but trade reasons. We're our own country and no reason why we should be ruled from Europe.
I'm quite happy that he's taken a stance on Europe, not like Mr Blair who let the French/Germans have their way, then give an extra few billion which Thatcher fought hard for. He can only rule so long being a soft touch and trying to make friends, rather than putting down his foot and actualy getting stuff done for our country.
Margaret, I would not attempt to educate anyone on the finer points of the EU as I have not got a clue what they may be.
Its ironic that the only Goverment to sign up for the treaties that have made significant changes as to how Britain is ruled were signed by a Tory Goverment! the Conservatives took this nation into the EEC and signed up to the treaty of Rome, and rubber stamped it by signing a treaty that this country still has to abide to, the Mastrict agreement.
As for Thatcher taking on the EU regarding a refund of contributions her party signed up to in the first place..rather than good old Maggie "swinging " her handbag she was simply going "cap in hand" like a common begger when her cabinet realised the mess they had made of this country's economy
Its ironic that the only Goverment to sign up for the treaties that have made significant changes as to how Britain is ruled were signed by a Tory Goverment! the Conservatives took this nation into the EEC and signed up to the treaty of Rome, and rubber stamped it by signing a treaty that this country still has to abide to, the Mastrict agreement.
As for Thatcher taking on the EU regarding a refund of contributions her party signed up to in the first place..rather than good old Maggie "swinging " her handbag she was simply going "cap in hand" like a common begger when her cabinet realised the mess they had made of this country's economy
The mess they made of the economy? What? Previous to Thatcher yeah. She tried to correct it, and it worked, look at the gift that Labour were handed.
The Conservatives took us in to the European Economic Community, but Labour wanted us to be in it too, so you can't try and throw that card
Our country dosn't have to abide by anything, we can drop out of the EU if we want, we just have to reverse an act of parliament..
The Conservatives took us in to the European Economic Community, but Labour wanted us to be in it too, so you can't try and throw that card
Our country dosn't have to abide by anything, we can drop out of the EU if we want, we just have to reverse an act of parliament..
Mancie said:
No thats not what I said, don't read between the lines. I said that if we wanted to we could pull out, we arn't abided by things against the will of the people.
In 1962 Macmillian (Tory) applied to join EEC, the french vetoed "Britain was not sufficiently European-minded yet to break away from the Commonwealth and accept a common agricultural policy"
In 1967 Wilson (Labour) wanted to join the EEC, the french vetoed "Britain had to improve its economy"
The french president who was rejecting UK applications resigened in 69 and in 1973 Heath joined the EEC.