Oswaldtwistle War Memorial

Retlaw

Retlaw

Pillar o' t' Community
Tackler
Oswaldtwistles new War Memorial list of names came on line last night. The compliers want people who know of any names missing, the can submit on the form provided. The person must have lived in Oswaldtwistle at the out break of WW1.
If that is so then a good 10% of the names already on their list do NOT QUALIFY.
I would have thought that havinbg been born in Oswaldtwistle would be the main criteria. So far I've checked the first 100 names on the list
James Barnes was a native of Accrington, no connection with Oswaldtwistle.
Adam Broughton was native of Blackburn, only worked in Oswaldtwistle.
Thomas Connor was a native of Accrington

Peter Butler his name is on St Marys Church Roll of Glory. MISSING

Robert W. Cartmell of Oswaldtwistle MISSING
James Cawley of Oswaldtwistle MISSING
Harry Chambers of Oswaldtwistle MISSING
James C. Clements Oswaldtwistle MISSING
Bartholomew Condry Oswaldtwistle MISSING
Thomas Connor St Mary's Church Roll of Glory MISSING
Robert Dawson Oswaldtwistle MISSING
Drummond should be spelt with 2 M's not 2 N's
William Duxbury is in several Military records as DUXBURY not Duxberry.

The people of Oswaldtwistle should be disgusted with the list produced so far which only totals 390 names,

My records show 419 men from Oswaldtwistle who qualify for inclusion on the memorial

One I did check first, was William Lowther, an Accrington, Pal killed in action 1-7-1916, he is not recorded in the war graves or soldiers died in the great war, he is on the Knusden War Memorial & 2 of his brothers are on Blackburns memorial. I've had a right battle with those who run the Commonwealth Grave sites, to have William's name on the Theipval memorial. I have also found his grand daughter who lives in Cheshire, she may have more luck.

Retlaw.
 
Retlaw said:
....The people of Oswaldtwistle should be disgusted with the list produced so far which only totals 390 names....

Retlaw.
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Who should the people of Oswaldtwistle be disgusted with? The Council or the Legion, which according to the former is the organisation that produced the list.
 
Why should they be disgusted at all? A list has been published for people to check and correct. I think that's a very sensible approach. They could be disgusted if it's engraved on the war memorial and incorrect but it isn't yet.

I'm sure they will appreciate your help Retlaw in setting them right.
 
Gayle said:
Why should they be disgusted at all? A list has been published for people to check and correct. I think that's a very sensible approach. They could be disgusted if it's engraved on the war memorial and incorrect but it isn't yet.
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Because they have'nt seen the mistakes.


I'm sure they will appreciate your help Retlaw in setting them right.
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I've already spoken to Roy Lockwood, once over two years ago when the project was first mentioned.
Then again two weeks ago, when he told me the list was ready and would be available for people to see at Oswaldtwistle & Accrington Libraries. The forms are available for people to add names but they will only accept those living in Oswaldtwistle at the out break of war, which will then be vetted by a committee, before they can be considered for inclusion.

I would have thought those who were born in Oswaldtwistle had first right, those who lived there next, those who were married to Oswaldtwistle girls next.
Then those who had lived in Oswaldtwistle most of their lives, but had moved away, and then those who had strong family ties in the town.

Some of those on the 1922 list of Oswaldtwistle men, are very tenuous, several should not be on at all.

Retlaw
 
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To be honest, as these young men gave their lives for us, does it really matter that much that it needs an order of importance? Surely the sacrifice they made was equal, it surpasses all earthly boundaries? If a Sapper from Ossy comes before a Sapper form Knuzden does it matter? As long as they are ALL remembered and commemmorated.:confused:
 
I expect the names would be alphabetical on the list.
As for who should be on it, I would expect people born or lived in Ossy when they left for war.
 
lindsay ormerod said:
To be honest, as these young men gave their lives for us, does it really matter that much that it needs an order of importance? Surely the sacrifice they made was equal, it surpasses all earthly boundaries? If a Sapper from Ossy comes before a Sapper form Knuzden does it matter? As long as they are ALL remembered and commemmorated.:confused:
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I can see our point lindsay, but with the same view can also see Retlaws point too. I've had the pleasure of meeting Retlaw and I know just how much work he has done on finding out details of our war dead, he is a very dedicated man and a stickler for detail, and we have to remember that all the many thousands of hours he has spent doing his research has been done for the only reward of thinking its a job that needed doing and has done without any though for himself. I for one admire Retlaw, well done my friend
 
Neil said:
I expect the names would be alphabetical on the list.
As for who should be on it, I would expect people born or lived in Ossy when they left for war.
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I agree men born or lived in Oswaldtwistle, but the 1922 list contained several men who had never lived in Oswaldtwistle. The compilers of the new list have also continued that practice and added some more that are completely wrong.
One in particular is Thomas Connor shown as 10795 PAL.
I have Thomas Connors Service papers and he has no connection with Oswaldtwistle, he was born and lived in Accrington. I also have the records of 7 others who qualify for inclusion, but are not on the list. I have only seriously checked the first two pages yet.

Retlaw.
 
lindsay ormerod said:
To be honest, as these young men gave their lives for us, does it really matter that much that it needs an order of importance? Surely the sacrifice they made was equal, it surpasses all earthly boundaries? If a Sapper from Ossy comes before a Sapper form Knuzden does it matter? As long as they are ALL remembered and commemmorated.:confused:
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No one is arguing with that, what I'm saying is wrong names being included. Some of those on the original list should'nt be included in any order, but Oswaldtwistle, Knuzden and Stanhill men should be, as long as all the names are there and properly SPELT.

Retlaw.
 
Retlaw said:
No one is arguing with that, what I'm saying is wrong names being included. Some of those on the original list should'nt be included in any order, but Oswaldtwistle, Knuzden and Stanhill men should be, as long as all the names are there and properly SPELT.

Retlaw.
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Will you be assisting them with the spelling, errors and omissions so that the memorial is as complete and correct as it can be?
 
Neil said:
Will you be assisting them with the spelling, errors and omissions so that the memorial is as complete and correct as it can be?
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The only time I was ever recognised, was at William Turners funeral by Roy Lockwood, he said he would be in touch with me. Since then nothing. When I saw the number of mistakes being perpetuated, in the list of names for Oswaldtwistles Memorial, it makes me wonder why I carry on with what I'm doing.
Never mind, Britcliffe in his ignorance supports them, so let them carry on. It will be no different than other War Memorials. Accrington's Memorial has 89 names missing, 5 men records twice and several spelling mistakes. Oswaldtwistle's original 1922 Roll of Honour, has several names that should not be on it & around 30 names missing.

Retlaw
 
It is a shame that all you gents with all this knowledge can't get together and make our memorial as accurate as possible.
 
Neil said:
It is a shame that all you gents with all this knowledge can't get together and make our memorial as accurate as possible.
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Who are all these gents with all this knowledge.
There is one with a web site who thinks he's got knowledge, but thats got more mistakes than the Oswaldtwistle War Memorial list.

I only deal in PROVEN facts, any mistakes, and it throws the whole into question. I don't like mistakes or errors, if its a thou out its scrap.
Even the Public Record office at Kew have acknowledged mistakes in some of their records, when I've presented proof, but they say they cannot alter their records, only acknowledge that there is an error.

Retlaw.
 
Retlaw said:
I only deal in PROVEN facts, any mistakes, and it throws the whole into question. I don't like mistakes or errors, if its a thou out its scrap.
Retlaw.
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Why do you think the mistakes were made in the first instance, particularly in relation to the listing of names on memorials in the 1920's?
 
Tealeaf said:
Why do you think the mistakes were made in the first instance, particularly in relation to the listing of names on memorials in the 1920's?
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Those who compiled the original 1922 Roll of Honour, and the Greater Accrington Roll of Honour, mainly from lists compiled by the Accrington Observer in 1918, thats why some men are named twice, if he is recorded as John Thomas Bloggs wounded in one of the issues, and then later as Thomas Bloggs was killed in action, he gets one under each of the Christian names.

Then you've got the type setters in the printing shop trying to read some newspaper reporters scribblings,
and so it goes on and on and on.

Retlaw
 
Retlaw said:
Those who compiled the original 1922 Roll of Honour, and the Greater Accrington Roll of Honour, mainly from lists compiled by the Accrington Observer in 1918, thats why some men are named twice, if he is recorded as John Thomas Bloggs wounded in one of the issues, and then later as Thomas Bloggs was killed in action, he gets one under each of the Christian names.

Then you've got the type setters in the printing shop trying to read some newspaper reporters scribblings,
and so it goes on and on and on.

Retlaw
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If the collation of names were only on the basis of the Observer records, then I can easily see how duplications and omissions would have been made. Surely, though, there must have been at least some assessment made by the powers that be (council committee?) of the eligability of individual names to go on the memorial.

I suppose this problem would not have been unique to Accrington/Oswaldtwistle. After all, at a national level there is not even agreement on the duration of the war; some memorials date it as 1914-18, others 14-19 so if that could not have been agreed upon it is no surprise that the methodology in obtaining and the criteria in listing names would differ from memorial to memorial.

I wonder if the Accy Observer would have had, in it's 1920's correspondence columns, complaints of missing, duplicated and incorrectly spelt names and as such, what was subsequently done to rectify the situation?

One final thought occurs to me. What was the role of the next-of-kin in the process of placing names? At what stage were they consulted, if at all? And is it not possible that in a radical political climate (and in a local tradition of socialist non-conformism) that certain families would not have wanted their loved one's name carved on a monument seen as glorifing war?
 
Tealeaf said:
If the collation of names were only on the basis of the Observer records, then I can easily see how duplications and omissions would have been made. Surely, though, there must have been at least some assessment made by the powers that be (council committee?) of the eligability of individual names to go on the memorial.
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Never come across any evidence of committe hearings on the subject of names, but there are some on the design of memorials and discussions in the newspapers on the subject
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I suppose this problem would not have been unique to Accrington/Oswaldtwistle. After all, at a national level there is not even agreement on the duration of the war; some memorials date it as 1914-18, others 14-19 so if that could not have been agreed upon it is no surprise that the methodology in obtaining and the criteria in listing names would differ from memorial to memorial.
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There are over 160 names missing from the memorials in Great Accrington (Hyndburn)
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I wonder if the Accy Observer would have had, in it's 1920's correspondence columns, complaints of missing, duplicated and incorrectly spelt names and as such, what was subsequently done to rectify the situation?
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Most of the War Memorials round here were erected in 1922, if there had been any complaints about the errors, why have'nt they been corrected over the past 87 years
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One final thought occurs to me. What was the role of the next-of-kin in the process of placing names? At what stage were they consulted, if at all? And is it not possible that in a radical political climate (and in a local tradition of socialist non-conformism) that certain families would not have wanted their loved one's name carved on a monument seen as glorifing war?
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Some names were ommited especially those missing in action, some relatives held on to the hope that they may come home. Others were so disgusted at the way their loved ones had been treated, refused to have their names added.
Others had their names put on several memorials.
Accrington has an addenda panel, several names on there, are already recorded on other memorials.
Retlaw.
 
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