Ubuntu 8.04

As long as there is format portability it genuinely seemed to make very little difference to most. The less abled kids were usually able to operate alternative systems to exactly the same level whilst the more technically-minded kids enjoyed having something new to find the ins and outs of.

That of course, is just my experience and I in no way want to insist that this is the case with everyone.
 
SamF said:
Why ?
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So they can carry on learning what they are taught at school at home. I would not make my kids do maths equations the way I was taught if their teacher wants them to do it another way, I will help them do it the way the teacher shows them.

Same goes for PC's and applications IMHO.

Are you a Linux freak?
 
Hypothetically... if this meant that they were taught spreadsheets using a top-end professional package rather than Excel, would you upgrade to that?

You are right not to contradict their teacher, but that doesn't mean you cannot expand their learning. That's like preventing a child learning about WWI because their teacher is delivering lessons on the industrial revolution. Again as a teacher I am thrilled to bits when a kid turns up having learned something outside of the syllabus and that challenges me to keep them as interested as the rest of the class.
 
The kevolution said:
Hypothetically... if this meant that they were taught spreadsheets using a top-end professional package rather than Excel, would you upgrade to that?

You are right not to contradict their teacher, but that doesn't mean you cannot expand their learning. That's like preventing a child learning about WWI because their teacher is delivering lessons on the industrial revolution. Again as a teacher I am thrilled to bits when a kid turns up having learned something outside of the syllabus and that challenges me to keep them as interested as the rest of the class.
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Yes.

I never said I would prevent them learning. I said it would be cool for them to learn several OS's. What I said was if they use Windows at school I think it is needed at home. It ok to have OS's as well but it would be a touch unfair if they could not practice at home what they are taught at school.
 
Neil said:
So they can carry on learning what they are taught at school at home. I would not make my kids do maths equations the way I was taught if their teacher wants them to do it another way, I will help them do it the way the teacher shows them.

Same goes for PC's and applications IMHO.

Are you a Linux freak?
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The difference being there is justification behind the school choosing to teach a different equation than the one that you were taught and there are no benefits from a broader range of knowledge in the area of maths equations - being comfortable using different brands of the same type of software may well prove invaluable for your child in the future.

And no.
 
SamF said:
being comfortable using different brands of the same type of software may well prove invaluable for your child in the future.
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Yes it might but given that school time is short and that almost no businesses use Linux as a desktop operating system it could be seen as a waste of time.
 
you seem to be discussing something that in reality should have no bearing. The underlying OS should not 'taint' the user interface or its doing too much. Open Office looks and works exactly like Openoffice( and MS Office in all but a few buttons) on all platforms, similarly browsers, email clients, image editing software.

The whole point is that you can sit a "Windows" child at a Linux desktop and they will be just as productive. In fact I'd argue its us old fogeys who would be less likely to cope as adults are far less open to change than children
 
The thing is, if for instance you try & tell a child how to do a maths sum, but your using a different method to the one they have been taught, they child will get extremely upset trying to say that they must do it the same way (well all mine did).

So by using a different OS & different packages to those thatthey use at school, things are going to be different. I.E. Word2007 at school & openoffice3 at home, the files will be different as they are not 100% compatible, so some conversion will have to be done.
This takes up time that they have not got in class. It may also mean redoing some formatting.
 
mattylad said:
The thing is, if for instance you try & tell a child how to do a maths sum, but your using a different method to the one they have been taught, they child will get extremely upset trying to say that they must do it the same way (well all mine did).
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Careful what you say- David Beckham got slated in the press when he said exactly the same thing about Brooklyn's homework. :rolleyes:

mattylad said:
So by using a different OS & different packages to those thatthey use at school, things are going to be different...
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I don't think it's that big a deal... Kids can remember the controls for a dozen different games at any given time. A few different versions of the same basic application, with common concepts and shortcuts aren't going to make much difference.

I had Ubuntu installed on my laptop for a few months. It was OK, but hard work to maintain, even for a geek like me. The days of an IT department with an almost godlike status have all-but disappeared, and IT users are too "empowered" to risk those days coming back. Your typical office worker will want a PC with a few hundred quid's worth of operating system and productivity software on it that they can rely on, something that works with icons and buttons, not scpripts and (often) a command-line interface. They'll want "words of one syllable" support from internet searches they can do themself, not an hour on the 'phone with some socially-challenged geek explaining in intricate detail a process that will fail if just one aspect is even slightly wrong.

An extreme example? Perhaps. But until Linux standardises into one version it's never going to replace Windows. I'd love for it to become mainstream, really. It's just not going to happen until regular users can cope.
 
Studio, I'm agog at your hard to maintain comment, can you expand? Ubuntu is easier than pretty much every single OS I've come across in this respect, it checks at a predetermined(customisable) period, tells you there are updates by an icon in the sys tray. Click this and it get the list of whats available, you can de-select any you specifically don't want and it then asks for your password, job done.

Even a geek like me rarely ventures into CLI in Ubuntu, the only time I have done in the last couple of months was when I wanted to configure a bluetooth 3G connection via my phone which is not exactly something a lot of people would want to do(actually you can even do this via GUI but I wanted to do some low level checks and as I'm a Comand line geek both at work and home its sometimes just 'quicker' to do it directly).

The only other tiems I would consider CLI now are if I'm doing something weird across a filesystem where being good at scripting I can make global changes very quickly. e.g. I use a Perl Script to create thumbnails of 3 sizes and generate HTML index sheets for images. Yep I could use a GUI Tool with Batch mode but it would involve numerous clicks, selections, etc, I just run "pix2tn <directory>" and its all done in no time.



What you say about standardisation in already in place(Linux Standard Base (LSB) - The Linux Foundation), standardisation does not mean just one distribution to rule them all. The fact that Linux can and does run on everything from microwaves to home PCs, Supercomputer clusters to Space stations tells you that its not sensible to have 'one' version.

I know you aren't some Linux hater but I genuinely don't see your comments as anything like what the reality of Linux today provides
 
Studio25 said:
The days of an IT department with an almost godlike status have all-but disappeared, and IT users are too "empowered" to risk those days coming back.
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I don't agree with that comment. Everywhere I have worked have had an IT department that sets out what you can and can't do by limiting the users access rights. You can't install anything hardware or software - they do it for you if they agree it is compatible and safe to do so.
 
Heh, on our stuff you can't even plug a USB stick in without you getting the sack! hardware and software is centrally managed to such a tight degree that I often need to get a tech support to 'sit' with me(over remote desktop of course as they are in Hungary) whilst I do some tasks as they are deemed 'dangerous'
 
entwisi said:
Studio, I'm agog at your hard to maintain comment, can you expand?
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This bloke puts it far more eloquently than I could. My personal experience is quite specific, so the reason Linux didn't work for me is not itself a valid explanation for my opinion on why Linux is not more generally accepted, but I'll offer both.

I think it's "institutionalisation" - both general users and semi-geeks can't always justify the extra time needed to dedicate to getting results on their new machine/software/operating system- and that's not accommodating the possibility that they have a piece of hardware for which there's no driver.

When I got this laptop, it had two partitions (for some reason known only to Dell). 18GB was hived off as the D drive, which was available for Ubuntu. I bought an "idiot's guide" magazine with a distribution CD on the cover. It installed easy enough, then went through its update routine. My main requirement was video editing: I tried Cinlerra first, which would not run. I forget the exact error message (this was six months ago) but internet searches suggested I need to edited a config file. It still didn't work. I ditched that and tried Kino, which worked, but then it turns out that there was no driver for my ExpressCard firewire device.

I gave up and went back to the Windows partition. When I eventually needed my 18GB back, it took an internet search to work out that it's GRUB you need to get rid of really, then you can just format the drive, but even removing GRUB isn't straightforward- in fact for a novice it's fraught with danger.

I'm not thick, but age and a career change from IT to photography ten years ago have meant that I'm not as involved with current developments as I used to be. So despite referring to myself as a geek, it's in mentality only- in practical terms, I'm out of touch.

As I say, it would be great if Linux overtook Windows, but I can't see it happening. The difference between XP and Vista should have dramatically tipped the balance from Windows to Linux, but it didn't happen. When one of my geekier friends tried Vista, he abandoned it for compatibility, bugs and performance problems. He kept his Linux server, but for his front end went to MacOS.

I could see Firefox stealing a huge chunk of the browser market when I first tried it, and it has. It won't overtake IE until 2014 though, and that's only if the current usage trends don't change (which Chrome may affect). The reason it is bucking the trend for open source alternatives for other applications (such as operating systems) is because of its simplicity of purpose: Firefox isn't Linux- while I think Linux is better than Windows mostly, being better doesn't always equate to a winner. Look at VHS vs Betamax...

As to the IT dept thing, I wasn't suggesting IT depts don't keep the systems running and the PCs virus* free. I was suggesting that your typical user can now manage their own workflow without having applications written for them by the IT dept which require intervention if they go wrong. I worked at British Steel 20 years ago, and the sales manager used an office suite called "Smart". He had umpteen complex spreadsheets with hundreds of little macros to shuffle his data about. I told him it would take two or three days to reorganise that into a simple, fast bespoke program. He passed on the offer- his system belonged to him, and he could maintain it unaided. Getting programmers to write something that could be shared with his co-workers offered only advantages to the business and his coworkers, individually he lost much and gained nothing.

Sorry for rambling. I've been coming back to this on-and-off during the day and it's got a bit disjointed.

* I'd love Linux/MacOS to beat Windows, or FireFox/Chrome to beat MSIE, just for the diversity, but it would also be fun to watch all the people who currently rave about their supposed immunity to them will find out why it is so.
 
Ubuntu would be ok if it actually worked when it installed :(

IBM P4 - install went fine but never finishes booting into Ubuntu. Just sits at a rather boring brownish screen. You can play with the mouse pointer though ;)
 
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