Ed Miliband

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

Same here, Margaret...practically everyone I know has a negative view on the EU, whether they want a semi-detached, trade only relationship or totally out.

...snap.

That's my experience too.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by garinda

...snap.

That's my experience too.

Though by far the most common demand is that for a referendum, because the E.U. is a totally different organisation from the body it was, when the public was last allowed a say about Europe in a referendum...thirty six years ago.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by garinda

Let's home Graham tells Ed of the people he represents overwhelming desire for a referendum on the issue of E.U. membership.

Well, yes I hope he does tell Mr Miliband...not that, in the current situation, there is a lot that the Leader of the opposition can do about it....other than make promises he is unlikely to keep.( Things may be beyond repair by the time Labour are re-elected....or he may not be the Labour Leader anymore).

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Well, yes I hope he does tell Mr Miliband...not that, in the current situation, there is a lot that the Leader of the opposition can do about it....other than make promises he is unlikely to keep.( Things may be beyond repair by the time Labour are re-elected....or he may not be the Labour Leader anymore).

Well from what I've heard and read (Bernard said on here recently that he still supported us being in Europe) Labour are just as intent on staying in Europe as anybody else, or even more so

[Eric]

Originally Posted by garinda

It must be hard, for someone who no longer lives here, to understand the madness we have to accept.

Eric, just imagine Canada's governed from Washington, and it'll help you comprehend the situation we're in.

Actually it's very hard to understand. Believe it or not, most of us this side of the pond ... those who use their brains, at least ... don't really think in terms of the EU ... or, if we do, it's only in terms of economic bailouts. We still think in terms of the individual nations of Europe. The idea of a United States of Europe hasn't quite made it accross the Atlantic. I know that there is a European Parliament; but it rarely makes the news.

And the only point I believe I was trying to make was that it wasn't in the interest of reasoned debate to ask for someone's opinion, and then damn them for giving it. It's as if debating had turned into baiting. If Bernard had said that he wasn't sure yet how he would vote if a referendum were held, would he have been labelled a "fence sitter"?

I fully understand the heat generated by the debate. After all, the future of your nation is at stake. Having said all that, I believe that if I were still there, I would be firmly in the "Let's get the hell out now" camp. Economic ties, yes; political union, no.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Eric

Actually it's very hard to understand. Believe it or not, most of us this side of the pond ... those who use their brains, at least ... don't really think in terms of the EU ... or, if we do, it's only in terms of economic bailouts. We still think in terms of the individual nations of Europe. The idea of a United States of Europe hasn't quite made it accross the Atlantic. I know that there is a European Parliament; but it rarely makes the news.

And the only point I believe I was trying to make was that it wasn't in the interest of reasoned debate to ask for someone's opinion, and then damn them for giving it. It's as if debating had turned into baiting. If Bernard had said that he wasn't sure yet how he would vote if a referendum were held, would he have been labelled a "fence sitter"?

I fully understand the heat generated by the debate. After all, the future of your nation is at stake. Having said all that, I believe that if I were still there, I would be firmly in the "Let's get the hell out now" camp. Economic ties, yes; political union, no.

To a point, I agree, and this is where Wynonie and I differ.

I find it interesting if a politican posts their views on a particular issue being discussed here, but they shouldn't feel anymore obligation to air their views than anyone else.

I've never met Claytonender, but way before she became a councillor she is someone I had a p.m. friendship with, and regardless of politics, her personal qualities and morals I hold in the utmost esteem, though I'd never demand she answer a question in public on here, unless she wanted to.

It's great when politicans post on Accy Web, but this isn't an official H.B.C. website.

If they choose to post here, they do so as themselves.

Just the same as everyone else.

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by Eric

And the only point I believe I was trying to make was that it wasn't in the interest of reasoned debate to ask for someone's opinion, and then damn them for giving it.

Your criticism was over me saying that he was out of touch with the ordinary voter and that you hadn't seen any evidence to show this. I say that he is, on this subject anyway, and I believe there's plenty of evidence, both statistical and anecdotal to back that up,

However, I will concede that at least he had the bottle to come on here and put forward an unpopular point of view and stick to his guns in the face of heavy shelling. It is also refreshing to see someone putting forward the other side of the argument for a change...and he's a Stanley fan, so he's a good lad really.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

Your criticism was over me saying that he was out of touch with the ordinary voter and that you hadn't seen any evidence to show this. I say that he is, on this subject anyway, and I believe there's plenty of evidence, both statistical and anecdotal to back that up,

However, I will concede that at least he had the bottle to come on here and put forward an unpopular point of view and stick to his guns in the face of heavy shelling. It is also refreshing to see someone putting forward the other side of the argument for a change...and he's a Stanley fan, so he's a good lad really.

Seconded.

Totally opposite view points on the benefits to this country of E.U. membership, but have total respect for Bernard for sticking by, and airing his views in public.

Even if he's wrong....and a little 'insular' in his thinking, in relation to the opinions of the greater majority of Britain.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

Your criticism was over me saying that he was out of touch with the ordinary voter and that you hadn't seen any evidence to show this. I say that he is, on this subject anyway, and I believe there's plenty of evidence, both statistical and anecdotal to back that up,

However, I will concede that at least he had the bottle to come on here and put forward an unpopular point of view and stick to his guns in the face of heavy shelling. It is also refreshing to see someone putting forward the other side of the argument for a change...and he's a Stanley fan, so he's a good lad really.

A Stanley fan, eh Last Stanley game I remember watching was way-back-when ... a cup tie against Rovers at Peel Park. I think the final was 0-0. But the pies were decent; and my politically incorrect grandfather gave me a couple of belts of rum and coffee from his thermos

I'm heading north today to sight in the guns for the upcoming hunting season ... we usually use pics of our Prime Minister as targets ... But the EU flag will do just as well. I'll put a few holes in it just for all those of you opposed to Europe.

[mobertol]

Originally Posted by Eric

I'm heading north today to sight in the guns for the upcoming hunting season ... we usually use pics of our Prime Minister as targets ... But the EU flag will do just as well. I'll put a few holes in it just for all those of you opposed to Europe.

Didn't have you down as a hunting as well as a fishing type Eric -make sure you don't kill any of the migrating geese....that would be a capital offence.

[g jones]

Current opinion polls are 51-49 and the pro EU seem to win on the clapometer at Thursdays QT when the issue was raised and discussed.

I wouldn't mind a referendum except for the fact that I am where the public are, split on the issue.

The political reality is the pro EU will win. Two reasons Cameron, Clegg, Miliband and Co believe it's right. Secondly the sensible anti EU arguments may well be hijacked by extremists over the course of the long debate. The anti EU lobby is unfortunately blessed by people with odd and nasel gasing views and a good anti EU campaign would need to park these people in a dark room. The Mail and the Express won't appeal to floating or unsure voters with it's hard line tone.

Like AV which had the sure to vote for out in front comfortably at the starting gun, the silent majority will make a late and safe decision delivering the pro EU a comfortable victory choosing concerns over jobs and support for a leaders consensus rather than fearful arguments quite possibly led by people considered eccentric.

What will damage the anti will be the unravelling of the Human Rights Act argument which hasn't really occurred but in short will portray anti EU campaigners as out of touch with the facts. The Pro EU campaigners have never stood their corner but if they did ...

Still not sure which way I would vote.

[g jones]

Current opinion polls are 51-49 and the pro EU seem to win on the clapometer at Thursdays QT when the issue was raised and discussed.

I wouldn't mind a referendum except for the fact that I am where the public are, split on the issue.

The political reality is the pro EU will win. Two reasons Cameron, Clegg, Miliband and Co believe it's right. Secondly the sensible anti EU arguments may well be hijacked by extremists over the course of the long debate. The anti EU lobby is unfortunately blessed by people with odd and nasel gasing views and a good anti EU campaign would need to park these people in a dark room. The Mail and the Express won't appeal to floating or unsure voters with it's hard line tone.

Like AV which had the sure to vote for out in front comfortably at the starting gun, the silent majority will make a late and safe decision delivering the pro EU a comfortable victory choosing concerns over jobs and support for a leaders consensus rather than fearful arguments quite possibly led by people considered eccentric.

What will damage the anti will be the unravelling of the Human Rights Act argument which hasn't really occurred but in short will portray anti EU campaigners as out of touch with the facts. The Pro EU campaigners have never stood their corner but if they did ...

Still not sure which way I would vote.

[Tex]

Were things better before we joined the EU? Well things seem to have gone T**s up with other countries since we did. All i know is we seem to bailing out countries who joined the EU on a low valuation knowing they could get a bail-out. Who will be next after Greece? Spain, Italy.????

[g jones]

It would be a good debate I believe and bring out more truths than the Express/Mail hysteria. I thought the AV referendum was a good debate.

Bailouts: We would have to bail out countries. Ireland for example whether we are in or out. The Germans may complain about the 1000Euro cost to each german paid to Greece but you have to consider the dangers. In Germanys case the Deutschmark would ruin Germany such would be it's high value. World trade means we are all interdependent to a greater or lesser degree.

My EU concerns are based on localism v Globalisation and EU waste/subsidies.

I forgot to add previously as to why the pro EU will win any referendum is the support of business, CBI, FSB backing Cam,Clegg,Mili. They will have a very powerful jobs and growth argument and fund the proEU campaign. The anti EU campaign has no leaders and no money.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by g jones

Current opinion polls are 51-49 and the pro EU seem to win on the clapometer at Thursdays QT when the issue was raised and discussed.

I wouldn't mind a referendum except for the fact that I am where the public are, split on the issue.

The political reality is the pro EU will win. Two reasons Cameron, Clegg, Miliband and Co believe it's right. Secondly the sensible anti EU arguments may well be hijacked by extremists over the course of the long debate. The anti EU lobby is unfortunately blessed by people with odd and nasel gasing views and a good anti EU campaign would need to park these people in a dark room. The Mail and the Express won't appeal to floating or unsure voters with it's hard line tone.

Like AV which had the sure to vote for out in front comfortably at the starting gun, the silent majority will make a late and safe decision delivering the pro EU a comfortable victory choosing concerns over jobs and support for a leaders consensus rather than fearful arguments quite possibly led by people considered eccentric.

What will damage the anti will be the unravelling of the Human Rights Act argument which hasn't really occurred but in short will portray anti EU campaigners as out of touch with the facts. The Pro EU campaigners have never stood their corner but if they did ...

Still not sure which way I would vote.

That must have been a good post it appears twice