Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

Well i have to say my view on religion is we all came from Noah and his wife i try not to think so far before that as it hurts slightly! we must have come from then as there was no-one else! so there is my theory!

Jam Butty you say you dont see muslims in catholic schools well you are wrong again both my children attend catholic school and yes there are asians and muslims who attend!!

Nether of my children are catholic and they attened catholic school i am not the one to give them religion as it is a belief and they will gain that for themselves after being taught about different religions at school!

I have to say though it does make me laugh when they are comming home from school sayin "Mum i have 2 fathers dont i " i said what she said well i have my dad and we have "Our Father" i just laughed and told her she needs new shoes go and ask your other father!!!!

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

In your case mate even less :p

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

I think that you will find that we use ONE TENTH (not 1%)of our brain in conscious acts simon and we have the capacity but not the ability to use more unless we develop the ability. However each generation seems to be that bit brighter than the previous one and also developing faster too. My newest granddaughter got her first two teeth at 8 months. This was unheard of 50 years ago, although it seems to be commonplace today. At one year she is walking unaided. OK! So it’s more of a stagger from support to support but kids in my day were considered forward if they were walking at 18 months. Look how tall kids are today compared to the average height 50 years ago.

Evolution isn’t just about need but also by accident of procreation. A tiny error in the coming together of parental genes can produce an offspring with an ability not evident in its siblings.

We cannot breath under water because we do not need to. We live on the land and have done for millions of years.

Noah was commanded to build a boat 300 cubits long. As I understand it a cubit was the equivalent of 18 inches. So the Ark would be 450 feet in length. Clean animals were boarded in groups of 7 and unclean animals in groups of 2. Now how much room would 7 elephants take? Not forgetting all the other larger animals. Then there is the feed for those animals for a minimum of 40 days. Sorry but the figures just don’t add up.

However some interpretations of a cubit put it at 45 inches but an Ark 1,125 feet long would still have a problem with tens of thousands of animals and their food. Don’t forget the waste product as well. How many people would be needed to tend to those animals?

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

I use more than you lot anyway, especially when I have to go astro-planing back to my own planet.:D

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

Re Noah. There is archaeological evidence that there was a Great Flood in the Middle East a few millenia ago. To our biblical historians their part of the world was The World, therefore The World was destroyed by flood.

Noah, having some prescience of impending weather conditions, builds his ark. The World (the Middle East) doesn't contain elephants, giraffes and such but it does contain sheep, goats, camels, fowls etc. so he takes a breeding pair of each on board, with an eye to the future. Along with them there's going to be all the insects - try keeping ticks etc. off sheep.

When the water subsides there's Noah, his wife and family (sons are mentioned in the bible, they probably had wives and children) and the stock - repopulation of The World. Meanwhile, in the rest of the world that isn't The World, things probably carry on pretty much as usual.

:)

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

Just wanted to reply very quickly to this statement:

How many Muslim children attend a Catholic or Church of England school? None!


There are certainly more than none who go to Mount Carmel just up the road from me. I see them coming and going in their school uniform.

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

I thought you were from a different reality not planet

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

So where did all this water go too then

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

I’ve no idea Neil. I’m not that old.

My point is that you can have localised flooding even to quite a depth but not to a depth of over 9,000 feet without the rest of the world also being flooded to a similar depth.

The other point is that some people take the Bible as Gospel but at best it is just hearsay.

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

OK JB, point taken (stop ruining my best theories, you spoilsport). :D

There really is evidence of a flood there but I haven't heard of any about the rest of the world. How about a Tsunami then?

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

Sorry about that West Ender.

I have also read about the evidence of a local flood in the Middle East but it couldn’t possibly have been to the extent that the Bible makes out.

“Yes it could” I can hear the Creationists cry out. “God held back the waters from the rest of the world.”

Then why does the Bible also state that ALL life on the world was destroyed and only Noah and Co were left to start again?

Oh! Heck! I'm beginning to argue with myself!

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

Where is all this water supposed to have come from? Then when the alleged flood subsided, where did the water go to. There's only so much water on the earth and around the earth in cloud form, I doubt there's enough to cover mountains, even if both icecaps melted.

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

But he doesn't condemn us to an eternity in Hell. That's what the Atonement is all about. Jesus took upon himself the sins of the world so that those of us who believe in him and accept his sacrifice do not have to suffer eternity in Hell. That is where justice and mercy meet, at the cross on Calvary.

I got my first 2 teeth when I was 6 minths old and I was walking at 12 months, although I subsequently suffered an illness and than set me back a bit as I had to relearn and so wasn't fully up and running until I was about 18 months old. THis was over 50 years ago. As for people growing taller and developing earlier etc I believe that is more down to nutrition than evolution. If a child is malnourished that child will not grow and develop as well as a child which gets fed properly. Some races which have always previously been thought of as small seem to be taller these days because they are eating a greater variety of food. I also noticed that the Masai don't seem to be as tall as they used to seem to be. Is this regression or a change of diet and lifestyle?

The "clean" animals were the ones which they used for food. I'm not aware of any instances in the Bible where they eat elephants.

There are accounts of a great deluge in the middle east on those Sumerian clay tablets that I mentioned earlier. They predate the writings in the Bible so they can't be accused of copying from Genesis or of having been written by Jews or Christians. They are older than any Egyptian heiroglyphics. So something definitely happened in that region.

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

I was watching some wildlife prog the other day where a mini sub went down 1000's of metres under the sea, there's some fish down there(angler fish i think) anyway these fish have got a very long sort of antenne with a flourecent bit on the end it uses as bait to lure its prey, the narrator told us it had taken millions of years to evolve this. just wondering how it ate during those millions of years until it grew the lure???

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

Jambutty will convince you that he has the answer :)

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

If you want to consider Noah and his Ark then the Black Sea was not always a sea and considering its proximity to the biblical lands then who knows. Rember at the end of the last ice age people where in the biblical area and as the sea rose then this would be seen as an omen. If it was me in that situ I would get out any way I could including a big boat.

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

I take it Adam and Eve must have been Jewish, (did he come ready circumcised???) but when did the God, who created Heaven and Earth and all upon it, find time to create other religions, such as Hinduism, Paganism etc.?

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

After a heavy session on the jungle juice. :D :D

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

I reckon noah was a martian and there was global warming on mars and all the land was getting flooded, so the martians shipped all the creatures to earth, millions of years ago, then over millions of years mars froze, just like we would do in the next million years, simple!

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So before they popped in for a visit did the Martians evolve or where they created??

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And if so did man evolve a foreskin?
Is Paganism a religion?

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Now they are two people that I have often puzzled over, mud=Adam, Eve=Rib if that is the case and no uterus (sorry to use that word Gayle I know I have no right to!) was involved,

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

Because the artists didn't have the same analytical brain as you Less.

That Eve looks like a right misery guts doesn't she? It also looks like she's feeding the apple to the snake! That's a variation on the theme.:D

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Eve is looking a bit butch in that pic Less. Also why has Adam got an affro??????

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Come on creationists, who circumcised Adam, and when did it happen?

Since Adam must have been Jewish, and there wasn't a Rabbi to perform it when he was a boy, who did it? Did Adam then circumcise his sons in accordance with Jewish teachings as seen in the Bible?

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Maybe Eve did tha deed for him. That would explain why women dont seem to be Rabbi's as Adam was a bit peaved when it happened. If Adam did the deed on his sons where did the blade come from?

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

Did Adam and Eve appear fully fluent in I presume Hebrew, and when did they learn ro read and write?

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

Never looked at it that way. Reading and writing has always evolved after creation. :confused:

Bother have I given this lot a way out of this argument that satisfies both sides. :eek:

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

Quote:JohnW
What kind of ever loving, all forgiving, all-powerful wonderful father figure, would condemn his sons and daughters to an eternity in hell which is supposed to be the worst place you could possibly imagine. I would not wish that upon my children no matter what they did. Let them be punished for things they do wrong most certainly, but an ETERNITY IN HELL. I don't think so. Where is this 'turn the other cheek' attitude we all hear so much about? The quality of mercy etc.?
Quote:Willow
But he doesn't condemn us to an eternity in Hell. That's what the Atonement is all about. Jesus took upon himself the sins of the world so that those of us who believe in him and accept his sacrifice do not have to suffer eternity in Hell. That is where justice and mercy meet, at the cross on Calvary.

OK, so if you DON'T believe in Him, then you ARE condemned to an eternity in Hell right? God claims to be our father in heaven and it is He who is making the rules.

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

Just because people dont go to church chaple temple mosque etc does not make them non believers. If not going to these places to comune with him was a mortal sin that sent you to Hell for eternity then my card is punched already.People see it their own way and were some are happy in a holy building then thats fine as it is for those who prefer to keep it a more private affair which could be construde as turning the other cheek to not attending as they are still believers.
The rules can be bent within reason and your soul shouldnt suffer for it as you are believing in the way best suited to yourself. J's sacrifice was the ultimate act of selflessness in so much as others could live and learn. I contentend that even non believers must have considered the question prior to non believing and can be saved if they believe on the deathbed so to speak. Hell can be seen or believed to be the ultimate deterrent to us all regardless of religion and all have their own version of damnation.
Its what you believe in your heart that matters not what others think you may or maynot believe. As we evolve and spread then are beliefs do the same and we are better for it. Ok some will take it to the extreme but then they are in the minority and will always stay the same. Enlightenment is what can make us or break us in the eyes f G. If the rules were kept ridged we would stagnate thus negating what G might want for us. All creations evolve regardless and all we hold dear follows the same track.

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

I will believe in God the Father the moment after he comes aknocking on my door and says,
"Less I know I have been ignoring you but you are like a son to me and I really believe in you".
So come on God, faith and trust work both ways, remove the suffering of my extended family around the world and you might just be on to a winning campaign.

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

Actually, I thought that the circumcision thing started when the jews were wandering in the desert after fleeing Egypt looking for the promised land. Wasn't the sand getting into places it wasn't really wanted and all that? Well, this is what I was told by a Jewish boy with whom I went to school.

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

then shouldnt jewish people in theory only be circumstised if they plan on a life in the desert or maybe a career as a life guard and not part of their religeous beleifs :)

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

Well, if you say so old chav. Maybe once they started the circumcision in the desert they just found that it made things cleaner down there anyway so decided to make it part and parcel of the faith. Who knows? Not really my favourite subject, in truth.

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

well it would take a lot more than a little sand to make me put a knife to the fellow :)

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

There's a song in "Fiddler on the Roof" called Tradition. That's what it's all about. Circumcision and the dietary laws all came about for health reasons. You don't eat pork or shellfish because one day in the desert and they're not fit to eat; you have separate dishes and pans for meat and milk - makes sense when you think of bacteria; you circumcise males - hygiene. Muslim tradition follows very similar lines to Jewish and both originated in the same place.

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

...sorry to hark on about it but if God created man in his own image, this perfect man, at least he was before the fall from grace, why didn't he think to make Adam already circumcised?

....and were Adam and Eve created already able to speak Hebrew?

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

Ah, but was Adam a Jew? As there wasn't anyone else around then surely there was nobody to differentiate from so Adam wouldn't be an anything, would he? As the Garden of Eden was a place of perfection it must have had a temperate climate and no irritating sand etc., plus nobody to pass nasty diseases on to (nobody to catch them from, come to think of it) so why bother? Is God Jewish?

Why am I arguing? I'm an evolutionist. ;)

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

Since God created Adam, who begat Cain, and so on and so forth throughout the rest of the old Testemant until Moses, he must be.

There are some truly weird sites if you search for Adam and Eve, most of them American.;)

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

Adam and Eve where just Adam and Eve.... there where NO jews, NO gentiles, NO Samaritans ETC.......

The Jews where the nation that God chose to use to carryout his Plan's, shame they messed up BIG time and are still stuck in a time warp...

Circumcision(?) was just one of the laws handed down to the jews for there time.. why would Adam need to be ???

Jesus said that he was the end of the "law" and left us with a lot less laws and some principles to follow.. So the many laws given to the jews, Failed to apply from Jesus time onward..

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What language did they speak to each other in?

'Come on Adam, taste this apple, you know you want to.':p

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No idea, Hebrew would make sense but does it make much difference ??

I will do my homework for you on that one though and let you know if I find anything gazza ;)

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

Yes it would be very interesting what the original language Adam and Eve conversed in, and how all subsequent language must have evolved from what they spoke in.

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

The different languages came about at the building of the Tower of Babel. Hebrew would have been just one of the many languages.

Jews are descendants of Judah, son of Jacob, son of Abraham. God is not a Jew. Jews didn't exist in th beginnng, nor did any race or nationality.

Circumcision was introduced as a sign of a covenant between God and his chosen people.


If you don't believe in him then why would you believe anyone is condemning you to anything? If you do believe that someone is condemning you to somethng then surely it follows that you must believe in him?

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

....ok, Adam and Eve weren't Jewish, but what language did they converse in, to each other, and also to God when they were told not to eat the apple?

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

Maybe they just used body language!!! lol

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Not so. You obviously believe in him and so, as you are aware that I don't, you must consider that I am going to hell. Therefore, if he is there and I am wrong, I am being condemned to hell. QED. Yet, if he is there, I am still supposed to be one of his children and he is supposed to be my ever loving, all powerful father. As I said before, I love my children too much to condemn them to an eternity of misery.

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

Probably only she and the serpent could speak and understand language. Sounds about right. She held out the apple and said, "Hey Adam, would you like an apple or a B/J." He, not understanding; took the apple! Oh well! Just think, one B/J instead of an apple and we would never had all this trouble we seem to be in.

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Eve was a parceltoungue does Harry Potter know about that?? :p

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Hows this for evolution! :p

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/a...1&d=1146866514

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

Ok you can have a 8.5 for that. :D