Creationism versus Evolution
 

Christian religion tries to teach us that God made the world in 6 days or was it the Universe. When this miraculous event occurred seems to be a closely guarded secret although 6,000 years is a time scale being banded about.

Science tries to tell us that the Universe is some 4.5 billion years old and the Earth a bit younger.

If the Creationists are right can they explain the dinosaurs? We have fossil evidence to establish that dinosaurs actually existed millions of years ago and that is a long way back from 6,000 years. We also have fossil evidence that the homo sapien has existed for more than 6,000 years. In both cases radio carbon dating, although not accurate to the century let alone a year, can differentiate between thousands and millions years.

Evolution is a proven scientific fact otherwise how can we explain racehorses and dogs. It may well be man made evolution by selective breeding but it is still evolution. The same can be said for a variety of plants – edible and decorative. Without selective breeding we would not have wheat, rice, corn etc. Or maybe the first farmers found a stalk of wheat that had more ears on it than the rest and its seeds were planted instead of being eaten. Thus wheat evolved naturally.

Natural evolution occurs when the marrying of genes isn’t as exact as is desired. Tiny mistakes happen and one such mistake could make the offspring slightly different in a good way or a bad way. After that it is a question of survival of the fittest. The good survives to procreate some more, the bad is consigned to nature’s dustbin. Siamese twins is an extreme example and I know one person who was born with three kidneys and also had six toes on each foot.

However there may just be a middle path between the two philosophies. The 6 days may be Universal days that equate to our billions of our years and there was some sort of divine intervention thousands of years ago to selectively breed chimpanzees into homo sapiens, or it could have been just a pure accident.

Until someone produces documentary evidence to back the Creationists view and not just stories from the past (the Bible etc) I have to go along with the Evolution theory.

Have I opened a can of worms?

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No you've been listening to the Jerermy Vine show that's all.:D

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Reading this is like being in my psychology class......... which is where I would be if the tutor wasn't ill (oh wot a shame!!):)
NicolaX

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It seems to me that all creationism needs is faith, something i cant quite grasp. There is evidence for evolution and thats that. Whatever the belief however its the future we should be more interested in.

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I once had a discussion along these lines with a Jehovah's Witness who was trying to sell me the Watchtower. He had an answer to every argument I brought up. Fossils? Put there by God. Why? To be part of the earth. Carbon dating? Figures made up by scientists. Evidence of Continental drift? All arranged by God as part of the pattern. Finally, I asked him why he thought his god wasn't clever enough to have created a world by evolution and he said, "Because he didn't need to. He did it in a week." :wacko8:


Incidentally, Jambutty, my younger daughter was born with 3 kidneys though we had no idea until the extra one became infected and had to be removed when she was 10. Apparently duplex kidneys are far more common than we think.

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Yes the JW’s seem to have an answer for everything.

In my last brush with them I asked:
“If Adam and Eve were the first humans and they had two sons who got married, where did their wives come from?”
“Adam and Eve had more than just two sons, they had daughters as well so Cain and Able married their sisters.”
“But God banned incest!”
No reply!

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JB universe approx 15 billion years old give or take a few million Earth approx 4.5 billion give or take. Maybe the almighty was doing a bit of experimenting. Who is to say we are not alone in the universe and some alien dude didnt visit and push apes towards their evolution into man and as a result every now and again pop in for a visit (UFO's) to see how we are doing. If primative people with some intelligence saw them they would more than likely be considered as a God and his angels. The Universe is so vast anything is possible and we know very little so there could be truth in both sides (on the fence collecting splinters).

Scientists can create basic amino acids which are one of the building blocks of life and with the knowledge being gained from DNA studies who is to say that many years from now they might just create intelligent life in a basic form to whom these scientists would be looked upon as gods.

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[quote=SPUGGIE J]. Who is to say we are not alone in the universe and some alien dude didnt visit and push apes towards their evolution into man and as a result every now and again pop in for a visit (UFO's) to see how we are doing. If primative people with some intelligence saw them they would more than likely be considered as a God and his angels.




Eric von Daniken put forward this theory about 40 years ago. I liked some of his conclusions. :)

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I watch two very good documentary recently, has any one seen these?

The God Who Wasn't There

and Who the Bleep do we Think we are

both can be found here

http://indie.imdb.com/index.indie

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maybe cain or able dressed up a chimpanze in sexy underwear , this also could explain why we cant find the missing link ;)

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Does that explain Tarzen and Cheetah????

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Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"

No time scale mentioned there, millions,billions,zillions who knows ??

6 "Creative" Days to put life on the earth.

How long is a day to God ??

There is NO evidence that humans have been on this planet any longer than 6,000 years.

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I once used to chat with a very nice lady when I was living in London. She called a couple of times, and left me some books to read about her religion's view on creation.

The books said nothing evolves, everything is at it was when created by God.

If we were all descended from Adam and Eve, whom I presume were middle eastern in appearance, where do the differing skin colours, and differing ethnicities come from, if nothing has ever evolved since the creation?

The lady couldn't give me a satisfactory answer.

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This Summer I will go a bit browner..... am I evolving into a black man ?? or could it be that we where created in a unique way, So unique that NO 2 are the same ?
That is good design too me.

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yes we are all unique simon but how the heck did so many ethnicities supposedly derive from just two people if evolution didn't play a part????

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Very simple... Variety... Ever seen 2 very good looking people have kids... are all there kids good looking ?? No they are varied.

Why So many Ginger people in scotland ?? From strong genes hundered years ago, and as those genes have stayed in the same area and interbreed they have been subject to natural selection, also enviroment plays a huge role.
Go and live and bring up a huge family over 1,000 years on the african continent.. think you will be as white as you are now ?? Or could it be we where designed to adapt to the enviroment for our healths sake ?

Then what if like minded people take it upon themselves to stick together as they spread out in the earth, As they isolate themselves and breed etc you get a culture ???

I am from a branch of good looking well educated individuals that stuck together :)

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.....but creationists believe we haven't altered at all since the creation. How do you account for the physical differences between Winnie Mandela and Rula Lenska, or Chairman Mao and Julian Clary if we haven't evolved as a species from two people?

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What ????????

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That's what the lady who came to see me in London claimed, and she gave me literature to back up her claims.

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Garinda................ Look at what you have put ;)

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I have thanks, that's what she claimed, she said nothing as ever changed, everything is as it was at the time of the creation.

Simplistic, but not rocket science to understand.:D

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And I will not continue to put anymore to this argument if you believe that "EVOLUTIONISTS" believe that nothing has changed from the time of creation ??

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Please no more book quotes tonight.
It reminds of the film 'Planet of the Apes' where they are praying to the holy nuclear missile. What makes Christians any less miss-guided than those poor sods in the film?

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I am not saying all creationists believe that. I never said that if you read it properly. It was the view of one woman and the church she belonged to.

She also said I could be cured if I gave myself to Jesus, but I don't do Arabs.:D

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You don't want to do a daft thing like that, they have some wierd ideas, I should know my Mum is one. Have a read of this website

Rubbish, no one has an answer to everything - not even me :)

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Evolution gives the suggestion that apes became men ...

Variety suggests change, jack russell and labrador, both still dogs cross them and you get a ladruss, but still a dog !!!
Try and cross a dog and a cat ??? different species will not happen. Sick scientists have tried for years to "Cross species" and failed miserably.

So if you want to suggest we can evolve in a varied way within the confines of our species, then yes that is obvious and GOOD design

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WHOOSH.................... surely you are trying to say that Creationist believe that ???

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You know you can't win this argument so why bother?

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Lots of people have beliefs that seem strange to others, mine included I suppose, but we should respect people's faith, even if to us it seems daft.

To me religion is a crutch, to help people walk life's arduous path.

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Bee...bonnet.....bee.:D

No like I said this was ONE woman and HER church.

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I do love a good religious debate. Only last weekend I managed to get a few of my neighbours argueing about religion, I even managed to almost keep out of it once i had got them started.

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How can I win ???

One guy will argue with himself and loose.... The other is just totally lost and has forgot who is who ???

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But do you know which you are?

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Win?:eek:

My dear chap, this isn't a competition, and if it was, it will be up to the readers of this thread as to whom seems to be lost.:p

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That must be the biggest WHOOSH ever ??????????????

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

loose - WRONG

it's LOSE....

grrr, sorry but this has been bugging me on this forum for ages, everyone seems to spell lose as loose and it is soooooooo wrong!!

rant and thread wander over :p

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soooooooo - WRONG

it's SO....

grrr, sorry but this has been bugging me on this forum for ages, everyone seems to spell so as soooooooo and it is so wrong!!

rant and thread wander over

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

YOU are SO right there it could never be refered to as win and lose.. but it was not me that started the WIN/lose.........

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Evolution is a fact and happening around us all the time, no argument. Just look at the way we are growing bigger, bed's are longer than they were in the middle ages .. go into any stately home and see how short they are.. Garinda your feet would be sticking out at the end !! When I was young average shoe size was 5, now appears to be a 6/7. Just small facts, but true.

Don't believe myself any sort of misguided creation, but, well, we all have our opinion, don't we ? One question creationists could never answer was that if this God created man in HIS ? image, why did he need all the body parts, particularly one bit (ya' know what I mean). Would be of no use would it ?

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Was that a short image that evolved into the tall people we are now?

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[quote=simon]YOU are SO right there it could never be refered to as win and lose.. but it was not me that started the WIN/lose.....



[Quote Simon]-How can I win ???


Have you been on the non :D evolutionary pop?

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I believe that all religion is wrong, children are brain washed with this rubbish as soon as they start going to school if not before at home.

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gareth I was replying too post 28 (who started winning ?)....... you are way off the beat tonight arnt you, sit down young man..

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Maybe misinformed but isn't the platapuss supposed to be some freak of nature were 2 species have crossed?

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.....and like someone said earlier, if we are all descended from Adam and Eve and their off spring, that's incest...and they should have created Childline earlier.;)

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I thought that was Southerners :)

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No idea Tinks ????

But for a hundred years evolutionists claimed that the Celecanth was a missing link that was a fish that crawled out onto land and started land life... the reason that there was none around was that this was millions of years ago and they have all evolved into lizards??? until they found out in the 70's that they were being caught and eaten of africa ???
Just sorted blew that theory away...

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Off Topic Warning.

Simon is trying to wind me up with a karma message because I am having car problems.
He seems to forget he is a locksmith when it comes to fixing the locks on his own car. How long have the locks been playing up Simon? :p

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No it didn't. Maybe the conditions were different in that part of the world so they were happy staying as fish.

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tinks

http://www.platypus.org.uk/

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You are all blinkered by your own belief. I don't have any strong beliefs one way or the other so can discuss this topic with and open and non prejudice mind.

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Would you be happy when you mate went for a walk and his family is now called GATES and you are chasing shrimps in the dark ??

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ANOTHER OFF TOPIC WARNING!

It wasn't about p***ing in pants was it? :D That's not a car problem it's a bladder problem unless you have developed a fetish for weeing in cars :eek:

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NEIL you LIAR you are not open and unbiased you are anti-religion and keep saying so.. So how can you say that ?? If religion is supportive of anything you are against it... Is that unbiased ???

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Is that why they all went bad, and peopled the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, because they were all related and doing bad things to each other in the bedroom department?

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Come on you two.

Let's have a bit of brotherly love.

We are all stardust.

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actualy they carbon dated staggeringmans underpants and found that they hadnt been changed for 8,000 years :D

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I think I actually said to you that I could believe we were created by God but that he has long since left/died or something as i can't believe in someone up there who loves us all while he watches perverts f*****g our children.

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Paedophilia has been around since ancient Greece, and probably unrecorded before that, so according to that argument when did the God you could believe in stop caring for his creations?

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also quite often it is the people who are spreading the lords word that are found to be doing said things to our children ( priests , vicars etc etc )

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When he created woman :D

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Would have been better off making a Peking sauce for that spare rib.;)

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actualy the rib thing has appeared more than once in history...


man gave up a rib and got woman

thousands of years later man can have another rib removed and give himself oral sex

if only the last option was available first then man could have saved a lot of trouble :p

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I think your gonna have to give up yet another rib ....... one thats going to massage that mighty male ego you men have evolved with! :p

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oooohhhhhhhhhhhhh

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Ok, you chose the one you want from looking at my six pack.:p

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S'ok keep yours I pick mine from my Ann Summers :p

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Only 1 rib thought it would take them all to do that Tinks?

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They sell ribs, as well as anatomically correct representations of other body parts?:eek: :D

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What you mean you have little rabbit ears just above your ****

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

anyway to get back on thread...

we as a race have evolved and learned enough to figure out that what the bilbe says is basicly nosence and to be quite honest we should be smart enough not to need religeion to keep us in check or provide morals

the most horrible acts are and have been done in the name of god/allah or by people claiming to be working under their instruction and its about time people took religeon as a maybe more of a guide rather than fact and accept that people all them years ago were basicly simpletons that would worship a light bulb if you could take one back to show them and had very little knowledge of the world around them and how things work

we have evolved and learned enough to know better so why the hell we dont act like it i dont know :rolleyes:

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Knowledge can be a dangerous thing and even if we knew the secrets of the universe we would still have a small band of fanatics of all religions. It is something we have to live with. All reigious wars do is increase hatred amongst the religions and followers of each. Dispite what all religous text says some will always warp it to their own ends. The 2 things that could end life as we know it will be science or religion or even worse both.

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If someone came along and said categorically - this is 100% fact (whichever argument it was supporting) not everyone would believe it. There would still be people disputing the absolute facts and starting conspiracy theories or whatever. That's why religion or beliefs should be fairly personal and as long as no one tries to change anyone elses beliefs we should all be able to get along.

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Now can anyone think of a religion with quite a lot of followers in Hyndburn that beleive we should all change our personal beliefs to theirs?

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I don't know Neil and it's an interesting question why don't you answer it instead of using a question to imply something?

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That's the problem though, obviously people do need religion to keep them in check. Look at the decline in society since the church (of any religious conviction) doesn't command the same respect it once did.

I agree with you that beliefs is personal but if a persons faith is strong enough another person wouldn't be able to change their beliefs however hard they tried anyway. Problems arise when people have no respect for a persons religion/beliefs and ridicule them just because they don't understand it themselves.

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Totally agree and that's why even if someone came up with 100% that God did or didn't exist you'd still get some who didn't believe you because their faith is that strong.

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Maybe some think of this as gods mistake and he tried again. If we dont evolve we stagnate and die out wether we like it or not. What would be the point of the Almighty putting us here if we did not evolve and grow it would have been a waste of time and effort.

Anyway Homo neanderthalensis cant have died out completely as there are plenty on the streets at the weekend (tongue in cheek) causing bedlam.

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i thought we already established woman as gods mistake ...? :D

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God's big joke was to put two totally different species on this earth and then forced them into pairing up in order for either species to survive.

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Take it this aimed about m n m and not polititions? :p :D

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This God that some people seem to think existed was an exceedingly vain person. The first three commandments are all about him.
1. You shall have no other gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain:
3. Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you.

Quote:

I don't believe God makes mistakes.

Accepting for a moment that there is a God, he (if it was a he) made three mistakes. One was called Adam, one called Eve and giving them a free will to do as they chose yet forbade them to eat the fruit off one particular tree. So Eve tempted Adam to sample the fruit and being a forgiving God they got banished and condemned the whole of humanity to a life of toil. Whatever happened to forgiveness? So it was a question of we can do what you like just as long as we follow his rules.

Hang on a minute though. Weren’t Adam and Eve supposed to be perfect? Perfect people don’t tempt others to break the rules.

5. Thou shalt not kill.
Excuse me but just exactly what did this God do when he created the flood? Wasn’t all life on the planet killed by the flood created by this God except for Noah, his wife, their children and their wives and not forgetting all animals etc? Then there is the story of the Egyptians chasing the Israelites and the parting of the seas to drown the Egyptian army.

Didn’t God tell the Israelites to attack and take over Jericho and kill the inhabitants as the first of many towns?

Oh! I see! It’s a case of do as I say, not as I do.

Religion evolved to try and wrest control from the ruling classes. It is nothing more than a means of controlling the population. In some countries Islam has a stronger hold over the people than the government.

If people want to believe in some mystical being and it gives them some degree of comfort then that is fine by me but don’t even bother trying to convert me. More importantly stop brainwashing children into your beliefs before they are old enough to evaluate things for themselves.

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Well I was with you all the way there Jambutty until the above statements. First of all I hope that 'don't even try to convert me' was just a random statment as I can't see anyone trying to convert anyone on here. People are just sharing their beliefs, converting someone has to be done by choice not something that you are made to do kicking and screaming. You keep your beliefs but allow others to have their own without being accused of trying to 'convert' people please.

As for brainwashing children, I don't think so! My mother as a baby wasn't allowed into my Great Grandmothers home until she had been Churched but doesn't have religion. It did her no harm. It is a parents right to choose their childs religion and when the child is old enough they will rebel against it if it's not what they believe.

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This is a great thread! Better than politics, especially this week!

Has anyone ever listened to Bill Hicks? I think he was one of the funniest men ever and he certainly had it in for neo-cons.His stuff is on iTunes. 'Dinosaurs In The Bible' and 'Living God' are so funny. Has anyone else heard him and what do they think?

I think if anyone wants a good laugh start with Arizona Bay - hilarious.

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My “don’t bother trying to convert me” wasn’t directed at anyone on this forum Tinkerbelle but a general statement to anyone with aspirations of being a missionary.

I’ll tell you how brain washed children were in my day. It was very subtle starting with morning assembly prayers. If we had school dinners we had to say grace before AND AFTER the meal. Even at the tender age of 5 we had Catholic religious instructions usually given by a priest from the church associated with the school. We had learned a simple version of the Ten Commandments off by heart before we could even add up simple numbers. Before we had left primary school we were taught the Catechism and we were each given a rosary. I can remember word for word prayers not just in English but in Latin and I never did Latin as a language lesson in school. As far as I know that degree of brain washing doesn’t happen these days except in church schools.

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Thanks for explaining that, and from your explanation I do actually understand now were you are coming from. I do have my own opinions on it too but wouldn't feel it was fair of me to criticise Roman Catholics in particular, though I will agree I have known many people who felt restricted and controlled by the religion as children that still affects them into adulthood ....... but on the other hand many adults who have and still do have great faith In Catholicism.

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To quote Willow, "As for how long creation took, well how long is one of God's days? A year? A thousand years? A million, a billion years?". I have a theory, for what use it may be, if the "Big Bang " story is correct, then imagine at the centre of the explosion there is a nucleus and millions of years ago everything was revolving and moving away from the center to the outer reaches of the universe, then at the time a revolution of the star systems and indeed our solar system took less time than it does now but it was still referred to as a day/week/month/year etc... This would explain why the Biblical characters lived for hundreds of years because a year was but a fraction of the time it is today.

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:rofl38: :rofl38:

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Being on the wrong side of 69 I have no idea what happens in secular schools today regarding religion. But I do know from second hand experience (grandchildren) that in church schools the church religion is taught, and as I understand it even more so in Muslim schools. How many Muslim children attend a Catholic or Church of England school? None!

If you want to influence how a person thinks, the way to do it is to plant the seed as early as possible in the child’s life. This has been happening since religion began. It is only later in life that some children see through the religious ethos and rebel. However the other side of the coin is that non religious adults have converted to a religion through choice. Some people have a need of something better to believe in than their humdrum lives and religion plays on this need by offering an afterlife if they follow the rules that have been laid down. Why do you think there are so many suicide bombers around? They have been brainwashed into believing that there is a better afterlife to what we have on Earth. In Catholicism suicide is a mortal sin and no one enters Heaven with a mortal sin unless they confess and do penance. Just exactly how does a successful suicide make a confession? They go straight to hell. If there is a supreme and all powerful God, by definition there can only be one. So how come if a Muslim commits suicide in furthering the cause of Islam he goes and sits by the side of Allah but a Catholic is condemned to Hell. They can’t both be right.

Quote:

This would explain why the Biblical characters lived for hundreds of years because a year was but a fraction of the time it is today.

I think that the word allegedly fits in there somewhere. Noah reputedly lived for 950 years whilst Joshua only managed 110.

Katex – laughing at a person’s post is at the best rude.

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I know Butty .. 'tis rude, however, not as articulate as yourself and thought straight to the point and how I felt at the time. Will behave better next time, promise. Anyway, you saying it all for me as agree with every word, but as Gayle has said won't change people's beliefs even when you talk common sense. Anyway, was the theory I was laughing at and, as you know, all scientists, have been laughed at during the past for these, only to be proved correct, so may be laughing on the other side of my face at some stage. :)

I never had my children christened as thought it would be like putting their name down for a political party before they could form their own opinions.

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It's my considered opinion that organised religion is, probably, the biggest con ever perpetrated against man by man. It is all a matter of control, and like has been said in earlier posts, if you get 'em young and frighten them with all kinds of hellfire if they don't do as they're told, and promises of heaven if they do as they're told, you stand a better chance of retaining them for the rest of their lives.

What kind of ever loving, all forgiving, all-powerful wonderful father figure, would condemn his sons and daughters to an eternity in hell which is supposed to be the worst place you could possibly imagine. I would not wish that upon my children no matter what they did. Let them be punished for things they do wrong most certainly, but an ETERNITY IN HELL. I don't think so. Where is this 'turn the other cheek' attitude we all hear so much about? The quality of mercy etc.? How come we are supposed to thank God for all the good things that happen, but we are not allowed to lay any blame at His door for all the bad things that happen? Plenty of that around these days eh? Much of it done in the name of religion. I cringe when I hear people say, "God saved us." when they are talking about narrowly missing death because of Hurricane Katrina or some such tragedy. Well, what about all the people who died? Why didn't he save them? Surely, this all powerful being would have been better employed calming the Hurricane rather than picking odd people out here and there to save from its wrath.


It's all a matter of faith we are told. Well, happily, I woke up and smelt the coffee. If you're not allowed to question anything but just believe whatever you are told then that, to my mind, is a cult. My wife is a devout Christian and prays for me every day because she considers I am heading for the lower regions when I pop my clogs. I love her dearly and would not want her to lose her faith if it makes her feel better about her life and the life which she is expecting hereafter. However, she really shouldn't waste her prayers on me.

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I think a lot of us feel that way. I was brought up Catholic but, though my mother was of that denomination and came from an old pre-reformation English Catholic family, my father was an agnostic (previously brought up as a Baptist). Through my dad I learned, first of all, how evil and nonsensical religious intolerance is. He had witnessed at first hand the intolerance of his family and his adoptive parents when he married my mum and he treated all those with similar views with scorn. He never questioned my mother's beliefs or my educational indoctrination by the sisters at Paddock House but he taught me to be rational.

I married in the Catholic church, though my husband was not of that persuasion, but I had already begun to have serious doubts, not particularly about the Catholic faith but about Faith in general. My first 2 children were baptised Catholic but I must admit it was more in the cause of tradition than devotion on my part. By the time they were ready for school I had no faith and seeing the evils of inter-religious bigotry, particularly as in Northern Ireland, I did not bring them up in any denomination at all.

My third child was not christened. At the age of 7 she started to go to the local Methodist Sunday School, because she wanted to. That was fine by me. After a couple of years she quite fancied being a Catholic and went to mass a couple of times, then she decided she would rather like to be a Jew but we didn't have a synagogue nearby so she gave up the idea. After that she became a devoted Humanist. In a way that has lasted but today, at the age of 30, she is just a very caring person who puts people first.

I love reading the Bible. I find the stories fascinating as a history of the world, as it was known at the time, put into allegory. I have no quarrel with those who take every word as verbatim because, like my dad, I believe in tolerance. I can pick holes in any theory of the Creationists but I would not do so in order to convert them to my philosophy and I won't be converted to theirs.

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

Arn't we getting off topic ?? "Creation versus Evolution"

If we have evolved can you explain something to me ?

We use less than 1% of our brain, many(sceintists) say less than 1/1000th of it.So the Theory of evolution says that we evolve out of need.Always bettering ourselves. How have we got too the point of being more than 100 times brainier than we currently are and then evolving backwards to this point ?
And when in our history did we show this much larger brain usage ???

P.s. why did we ever lose the ability to breath underwater ? if we evolved from fish? would be very usefull in this planet of 3/4 water ??

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

Any poor sod that used more than a certain amount of grey matter would end up in a lab. The rest could be used as we progress at a certain rate.

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

I'm not fully understanding what you are trying to say here Simon. When were we at the point of being 100 times brainier than we are now and who measured this for us? I would have thought that we are certainly 'more clever' now than we have ever been. We have made unbelievable technological strides in the last 50 years. When I was a child, our class was told by our teacher that "one day" man would walk on the moon, but it would not be in our lifetime. It was a reasonable assumption at the time I think.

Re: Creationism versus Evolution
 

They could have compared the interlectual capacity of Geo W to Stephen Hawkins which would mean x100 is generous. :D :D :D