Accrington Web - gay adoption

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Accrington Web (https://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/index.php)

- General Chat (https://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f69/)

- - gay adoption (https://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f69/gay-adoption-28044.html)

WillowTheWhisp

31-01-2007 13:57

Re: gay adoption

Quote:

Originally Posted by flashytart (Post 377449)

i am all for gay adoption, but when it comes down to it willow it all goes through parliament, everything in life does

Yes and it already has done - but I couldn't work out whether you were saying the Catholic church should adapt and change or that parliament should accept the church's differences in their own case and make allowances.

shakermaker

31-01-2007 16:15

Re: gay adoption

Quote:

Originally Posted by flashytart (Post 377442)

Right When You Lot Have Stopped Waffling On About This.....it Doesnt Really Matter What We Think, Yes We All Have Our Own Opinions And Rightly So, But We Cant Change A Things Can We?

Why have you registered to a discussion forum then?

chav1

31-01-2007 16:21

Re: gay adoption

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakermaker (Post 377497)

Why have you registered to a discussion forum then?

she has no vocal chords and can only comunicate via typing etc.

she does have a machine however that sounds like steven hawkings , i think its called speak & spell :D

Billcat

31-01-2007 19:57

Re: gay adoption

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 377441)

I don't understand that. As 'those agencies' are actually run by the Catholic church how could the connection be severed?

Change the governing documents to provide for a different way of running these agencies and sever the connection. Over time, the staffing would presumably become less Catholic.

Example - My college was, in its early days, founded and governed under the auspices of the Congregational Church, as were many of the earliest American colleges, including Harvard and Yale. In those early days, their primary function was to educate clergymen, so the connection made great sense. Over time, the educational function changed, and these schools managed to thrive when the link with the church was severed.

Hypothetically, if the Mormon church decided to sever their links with the genealogical research facilities they have established (and they are very, very good), there would be no particular reason that these facilities would necessarily cease to function. They get a lot of use from Mormons and non-Mormons alike, and could well find a way to survive and thrive.

If there is a will to continue, combined with a real societal need for the services, no reason I can see that the agenices would have to fold.

WillowTheWhisp

31-01-2007 21:47

Re: gay adoption

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billcat (Post 377625)

Hypothetically, if the Mormon church decided to sever their links with the genealogical research facilities they have established (and they are very, very good), there would be no particular reason that these facilities would necessarily cease to function. They get a lot of use from Mormons and non-Mormons alike, and could well find a way to survive and thrive.

If there is a will to continue, combined with a real societal need for the services, no reason I can see that the agenices would have to fold.

I can't see how that could happen as the 'Family History Centres' are all on church premises. The church could close them if it ever wanted to and chuck all the gubbins away I suppose - which is highly unlikely - and people would have to use other sources but I can't see how the church could sever it's connection with them and they then be staffed and run by non-church members when they are an actual part of the church itself and in rooms actually within the church buildings. The originals of the filmed records are all stored by the church so if the church ever ceased to operate the centres how would other people have access to the records? Somebody would have to start up other centres and us the records from other sources. The Family History Centres actually get more use by non-Mormons than they do by members on a percentage of patrons basis.

Billcat

01-02-2007 13:44

Re: gay adoption

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 377691)

I can't see how that could happen as the 'Family History Centres' are all on church premises.

But all the data is very portable, so there is nothing that would require it to remain on church premises, apart from the "That's how it's always been done factor."

As so much of the data is computerized these days, moving it is not a huge problem. Also, if memory serves, the site in Salt Lake City is on church premises, but in its own building. No reason that the building could not be sold. Or, the areas housing Family History Centres could be let to whoever operated them.

There are any number of possible solutions to changing how geneological research (or adoption agencies) might be run in different ways. My ideas are, frankly, pretty simple solutions but they serve to show how these operations might be severed.

WillowTheWhisp

01-02-2007 14:08

Re: gay adoption

Many of the areas used as Family History Centres are simply rooms within the church buildings that comprise chapel and Sunday school rooms. The FH rooms are used for other purposes on other days of the week such as youth groups one evening, Sunday school classes on Sundays etc. Yes there is a separate building in Salt Lake City. There's even a separate building at Chorley although that is on church grounds adjacent to the chapel and temple but the majority are not.

The storage facility is in a mountain vault - it may have been superceded by computerised records by now but at one stage there were a lot of other records stored there too on behalf of others including the US governent because of the temperature and humidity levels.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be possible for the church to sever all connections with genealogical research but I can't see it being easy. Would any other organisation do it on a totally non-profit making basis staffed by volunteers?

Billcat

01-02-2007 14:48

Re: gay adoption

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 377928)

Would any other organisation do it on a totally non-profit making basis staffed by volunteers?

Again, if the link were severed, anything could change. Who owns and runs it, whether it is run by volunteers or paid staff, whether it is non-profit or not, etc., etc. Just because it has been run in one way for a long time, it does not necessarily follow that it will always be so. In any case, I was using the geneological resrouces as an illustrative example, so let's not wander too far afield.

For the adoption agencies, if the link with the Catholic Church is severed, almost anything could change. If there are other adoption agencies that could pick up the slack, perhaps the Catholics agencies would terminate activities. If not, then it might make very good sense for the agencies to continue operations, albeit without the direct connection to the church.

As the old maxim goes, there is more than one way to skin a cat! (Although my pal Barnaby prefers to keep wearing his handsome fur coat, despite occasional hairballs):)

WillowTheWhisp

01-02-2007 15:15

Re: gay adoption

The Catholic adoption service (let's call it agency A) currently works alongside other agencies - let's call them agencies B & C to simplify things.

Now if the agency A continued to operate but severed all connections with the Catholic church and was staffed by non-Catholics and went by another name (can hardly call itself the Catholic adoption agency when it's no longer anything to do with the Catholc church can it?) isn't that the same as the Catholic adoption agency closing down completely and a totally new agency opening up to take it's place and this in fact being agency D and not a continuation of agency A?

If that occurred wouldn't it necessitate training a whole new set of staff? Who would finance this? Where would it be located? Indeed why would any independant organisation contemplate setting up such a thing? It would seem more logical that the existing agencies B & C would simply absorb that which the Cathilic church is no longer able to do. Of course it would mean a greater workload and possibly more staff required but it would make more sense for exisitng agencies to take on new staff alongside those already with experience than for a new agency to try to cope with a complete new set of staff without the practical experience. Where human lives are concernd it's too important an area to be solely in the hands of inexperienced people.

If there'd only ever been the Catholic run adoption service and it had excluded certain applicants then I could see the necessity in law for setting up a separate agency but when the separate agencies already exist and have co-existed alongside the Catholic one then I see no reason not to just leave them to get on with the whole of it after the 21 months winding down period. Why would there be any eed to have a replacement alternative for the Catholic one?

Billcat

01-02-2007 15:34

Re: gay adoption

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 377441)

I don't understand that. As 'those agencies' are actually run by the Catholic church how could the connection be severed?

Willow, I answered that one previously.

Very much in the same way that a business spins one of its operations. It's not as though this is a very new or startling idea.

WillowTheWhisp

01-02-2007 15:43

Re: gay adoption

I saw your previous answer - I don't understand why you're quoting me again. :confused:

Billcat

01-02-2007 16:20

Re: gay adoption

Sorry, didn't mean to quote the same bit again. My mistake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 377948)

Now if the agency A continued to operate but severed all connections with the Catholic church and was staffed by non-Catholics and went by another name (can hardly call itself the Catholic adoption agency when it's no longer anything to do with the Catholc church can it?) isn't that the same as the Catholic adoption agency closing down completely and a totally new agency opening up to take it's place and this in fact being agency D and not a continuation of agency A?

Not at all. There is no particular reason why the new agency would have to be staffed by non-Catholics. While the Catholic Church may, as a matter of church policy, not want to work with gay couples who wish to adopt, I know many individual Catholics who would have no objection. Also, given that there is a transition period, it would provide any current staffers time to find another position, as well as allowing the agency to fill any vacancies with new staffers who are prepared to work under the new laws.

Another interesting alternative....there is no reason why the Catholic Church could not work with another religious organization (one that would be willing to abide by the new laws, of course) to handle the transition.

If there are other agencies serving the same area, again there are a myriad of possibilities. To give a few examples - The Catholic Church could close its agency and let the chip fall where they may, or could choose to finish the cases they are currently working (at any date during the transition period) and not take on new ones, or they could let one of the other agencies take over the Catholic agency.

I believe that there are lots of possible outcomes, other than merely having the Catholic agency close up shop. Obviously, it will not be quite the same as it is today. But then, very little in this world remains unchanged for long.

WillowTheWhisp

01-02-2007 17:09

Re: gay adoption

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billcat (Post 377969)

It sounds a bit like Trigger's broom! :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billcat (Post 377969)

Another interesting alternative....there is no reason why the Catholic Church could not work with another religious organization (one that would be willing to abide by the new laws, of course) to handle the transition.

If there are other agencies serving the same area, again there are a myriad of possibilities. To give a few examples - The Catholic Church could close its agency and let the chip fall where they may, or could choose to finish the cases they are currently working (at any date during the transition period) and not take on new ones, or they could let one of the other agencies take over the Catholic agency.

Given that they 'work on' cases without a time limit and have always been available to support the adoptee families for years after the legalities of the adoption proceedure have been completed then 21 months would hardly cover that. I can't help wondering if there will be something else in place to help the families who have adopted difficult to place children and who have relied on the follow-up support.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billcat (Post 377969)

I believe that there are lots of possible outcomes, other than merely having the Catholic agency close up shop. Obviously, it will not be quite the same as it is today. But then, very little in this world remains unchanged for long.

I agree that there are a lot of possible outcomes and I just hope that whatever happens the children don't suffer as a result. By that I mean the children who have already been placed for adoption by the agency which will no longer be there as before to support them.

garinda

01-02-2007 23:08

Re: gay adoption

'But Peter Smith, the Catholic Archbishop of Cardiff, said it cost agencies about £20,000 to select and train each family to adopt.

The government then repaid the money if a local authority agreed to a couple's suitability.'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6289301.stm

Not quite the act of selfless charity, it first appears to be.

Ianto.W.

02-02-2007 00:44

Re: gay adoption

Quote:

Liberal Democrat MP Evan Harris suggested religious organisations carrying out public welfare functions should be gradually replaced with "secular-governed" agencies.

"Welfare for the vulnerable cannot be put at risk by reliance on organisations who threaten to pull out, rather than apply the law," he said.

This was taken out of the same article as garinda posted earlier, regarding the repayment of £20,000 aprox needed to 'process' the applicants.
The answer is in the above statements, either abide by the law or get out of the 'ballpark'.

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