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gay adoption
OK ... i have not seen any posts on this so here goes.
New anti discrimination laws are to be brought in that say gay/lesbian couples have the same rights as any other potential parents when applying to adopt children. The Catholic Church, seemigly backed up by the Church of England, say they should be exempted from the law.. Should "exemptions" be made ? or not? |
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in a word NO.:(
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i totally agree with gay adoptions, my aunt is gay and if she was young enough she would adopt.....why shouldnt any gay person whether they be male or female bring a child up??? i think its pathetic what the church thinks, you have druggies and alcoholics bringing children up and not a word is ever said about them, gay people would give any child a loving and secure home....BOLL*X to the church :D
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It seems to me Mancie that the two churches you mentioned in the thread need to 'clean' their acts up before 'pontificating' on other groups.
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'yeah' 'you' 'tell' 'um' 'ianto'
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There is good and bad in all of us, no matter what sexual orientation.
I think the Churches that have been cited, are objecting to placing children for adoption with same sex couples because their(the Churches) doctrines are against it. So it is against their teachings, and therefore they feel it would be hypocritical of them to go against their teachings. The muslim faith is also against such a practice. Presently, although the Catholic Church will not allow adoption of children from the Catholic faith to be adopted by same sex couples.....they will however, direct them to adoption agencies that have no qualms about sexual orientation of adoptive parents. This is a practical response to a theological and social problem. |
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Margaret may I say a great response.. but can you explain the "theological and social problem" you stated?
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The Catholic and Church of England have the theological problem - inasmuch as they see homosexuality as a sin.....same sex people cannot reproduce...marriage was formulated for procreation.
Same sex couples have the social problem of being discriminated against by the religious groups(where adoption is concerned anyway). I hope that will clarify the point that I was trying to make. |
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I'm fairly sure that couples who decide to adopt do not go into it lightly, perhaps even more so gay couples. Any couple who chooses to go through the adoption process gets vetted and analysed - couples who do it the more conventional way don't have to be processed before having children.
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Fair enough..but I would say that the piont about procreation is a weak argument in the case of people adopting children, as most who adopt can not have thier own kids because of one thing or another.
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Crikey, Ian, you can't have forgotten!
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Perhaps it's been a long time!
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and just a after thought.. I havent heard of any Muslim protests in the case.
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Neither have I, but have you ever heard of any muslim adoption agencies?
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Like i've told you before the present incumbant wife says i'm a very important man:D.
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Have they(muslims) written letters to every MP to get exemptions?
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Well, surely they don't need to. If there are no muslim adoption agencies, then there won't be any same sex couples applying to them to adopt?
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This is another one of those situations where I know what I mean in my head but I'm not sure it will come out right on the page - but here goes.
Like Margaret said, the Catholic church's doctrine is that homosexuality is wrong. At present the Catholic church does not offer children for adoption by gay or lesbian couples. They have never said that they do not believe that gay or lesbian couples, or even single gay or lesbian people, would not make loving parents. What they have said is that supporting the adoption of child by such people goes against the Catholic principle of marriage between a man and a woman and the child having a Mum an a Dad. They have never at any time told gay or lesbian couples that they should not adopt and in fact have always directed such couples to other agencies which have no conflict of interests. The new legislation would seek to force the Catholic adoption agencies to go against their own principles and force them to do something which they feel they cannot do and so their only option under those circumstances would be to close down. They have never at any time said they would stop referring people to other agencies. They have never at any time said that they want to stop gay and lesbian couples from adopting children. This anti discrimination measure is pro gay rights, but by insisting on something which is not actually necessary they are in fact denying the rights of another group. The best solution in my opinion would be for everyone to be permitted to act according to their own conscience - which actually what we have at present and which works. If it ain't broke why fix it? |
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Of course, if the child is old enough at the time of adoption to provide input into the process (whether it be the choice of adoptive paretns or choice of religion), the courts should certainly take that input under consideration. |
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Firstly, if we are to be tolerant of all faith, I suppose the law should also be there to protect Catholic's views.
Secondly, as was hinted at earlier, it would perhaps be more prudent for the Catholic Church to first put their house in order, before worrying too much about the morality of same sex couples adopting children. The present Pope before he became Il Papa, was one of the most senior people who tried to silence the voices of the literally thousands of children who have been abused by it's priests. To me denying, and trying to cover up child abuse, is a much worse crime than letting same sex couples adopt a child. |
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It's a different subject but I agree that covering up child abuse is inexcusable.
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We have an outfit here called 'The Social Services' Billcat they are a different kettle of fish alltogether, they are the can of worms that get involved when it does come court time, the plot doesn't half thicken then, not only does religion come into it, same race black kids must go to black parents half caste kids must go to half caste parents (to prevent an identity crisis) adopting children in this country is like a one leged man trying to win an arse kicking contest.
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So.. back to the same question .. should we allow "exemptions" or not?
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I'm not sure how strict they are on racial mix now but 20 years ago they used to try to match a child with the exact same racial mix as the natural parents which often resulted in some children never finding parents.
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I don't see any benefit in trying to force the Catholic adoption agencies to act against their principles, all that will mean is that they will close down and then what will happen to the children?
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I have no great thoughts on adoption.
I just know if I was ten and living in care, I'd much rather live with two people that loved me, and made me feel part of a family, regardless of their gender. We must also remember that there are still more children and young people in care in the UK, than there are people willing to adopt them. |
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I have NOT read any of the posts above.......
I can't be arsed (lmao) but................ IMO I would have no reason to doubt that a gay ( either male gay or lesbian gay) would be un-suitable to bring a child/children up. As long as the child is well looked after....cared for and loved.....who actually gives a flying ( ok I remembered the swearing ban just in time). |
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There was one particular set of twins, with blond hair and blue eyes no less, but they could not be adopted by a white couple because they had a brown skinned west indian great grannie (whom they had never met.) They'd been brought up by their white mother amongst white relatives with white grandparents, aunts and uncles and cousins but when the mother was no longer able to take care of them for whatever reason the adoption people were looking for a black or mixed race couple. Wouldn't that have possibly been a culture shock for them? |
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I was hoping that someone would start a thread on this issue because I had already started two and that is enough for one day.
However since the thread is now here . . . . . . . . . . . . . The law is the law, is the law and should apply to all citizens of the land without fear or favour. FULL STOP! Where this issue has gone all wrong is allowing homosexual couples to adopt in the first place. Before you start hurling brick bats at me just hear me out. Nature has decreed that the offspring of a species are brought about by the union of the male sperm and female egg and only men can produce sperm and only women harbour eggs. Thus the natural order of things is that only a man and a woman can begat offspring. Mother Nature has been around a lot longer than man’s silly laws and I would suggest that she knows best. A child needs a male and a female role model and in the case of single parent families a child will often find the missing role model outside the home, a relative, an older sibling perhaps, a teacher or just the person next door or across the street or even a friend’s parent. They could do just that as a child of a gay or lesbian couple but would they be allowed to? Just remember that in the formative years (before they start proper school) the home influence is the strongest and lasts the longest. Allow a child to get their own way all the time during those years and you will end up with a selfish little prig. Children are impressionable, they have to be otherwise they wouldn’t learn anything. Children have been trained (turned if you like) into pickpockets, shoplifters, drug runners, con artists to name just a few un-childlike behaviours and for want of a better description “queers”. If little Jenny is kissed and cuddled by her mummy it won’t turn her into a lesbian but an adopted child isn’t with its natural parents. If a male child is kissed and cuddles by his gay adopted father and then both of them he will grow up to think that is the natural order of things. Children learn about life primarily from their parents and they learn about life from a female perspective and from a male perspective from their mother and father. The female perspective is missing with a gay couple and the male perspective is missing with a lesbian couple. First of all a child’s welfare and well-being comes BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE. Imagine the cruel ribbing at school when it is found out that little Johnny has two daddies living in the same house and no mummy. You can bet your sweet life that he will be the victim of name calling far worse then “hey fatty” or “four eyes”. That in itself is reason enough for gay men or couples not to be allowed to adopt a child. The same applies to lesbians. A gay man prefers emotional and sexual ties with another man. Similarly for women. What concerns me most is that if a gay couple adopt a boy there is every possibility that one or both of them will groom that boy to be gay and all that would lead to. Not to put too a fine point on it but sex with a virgin is sought after by most men and sex with a male virgin is also sought after by gay men. IF IT HAPPENS ONCE IT IS ONCE TOO OFTEN. A heterosexual child, if there is such a thing, can be turned. I know I have seen it happen at school to a classmate. At 13 he was like the rest of us, chasing girls and all that went with it. Then he met a guy at the baths that use to be at the top of St. James Street just below the pit and the next thing we knew he had a smart new pair of swimming trunks, then goggles then cap and so on. He stopped coming out with us lot but went to this guy’s house instead. I then met up with him whilst we were training at Bank Hall in Burnley and during the train journey he started to make advances to me. He stopped when a fist rattled his teeth. Gay and lesbian couples should not be allowed to adopt children even if a gay man’s sperm is used with a volunteer woman or a lesbian is impregnated artificially by a donor. OK! Fire away! No amount of vetting will tell if the prospective adopter is likely to try and groom a child Gayle. And now I’m going to bed. I’m not running away I’m just kna oh! I mean tired. |
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Hang on a mo - children don't catch "gayness".
All the gay people that exist or ever have existed in the world were born of a union between a man and a woman and for the majority were brought up by both parents. It didn't stop them being gay just because they had heterosexual parents as role models. A lesbian Mum kissing her daughter isn't going to kiss the daughter in any different way than a straight Mum does - unless you are implying it will lead to incest. Sexual orientation isn't contageous. |
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NO but they can sure learn it.................. Talk about obvious................................ I can smell the coffee. |
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I won't even begin to dignify that homophobic crap by answering every point.
Just answer two questions though Jambutty? Why does the union of the same man and woman produce both hetrosexual and homosexual offspring, if they have the same up bringing and role models? Also why is there no greater incidence of homosexuality amongst the children raised by homosexual parents, as there are hertosexual ones? Happily the ignorance you show Jambutty is dieing out, just like the other Dinosaurs once did. |
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I find it hard to believe that anyone learns to be gay. You is what you is.
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what fot do!! come home one day and say " hello I'm the only gay in the village - oh maybe not my parents were" GET A GRIP |
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So why do some children 'learn it' and others in the same family don't then? Think it's time you woke up and smelled the coffee. |
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can anybody honestly say kids do not copy what happens in the home? very many do.and thats why i say NO. its not anti-gay its COMMON SENSE>
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I think Accybabs is from a older generation than us so opinion is reflecting that:rolleyes: just to add a point:D
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Thank you cashman... thank goodness you can see common sense as well...... shame about some others |
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Remember those two blokes who paid for a woman to have their children via artificial insemination a few years back? They had twin boys and went on to use the same lady a little later and now are the proud fathers of a little daughter?
I read an article about their little family a short time ago. The children are well adjusted and have two caring parents. What more could they ask? As far as I'm concerned, if a child is wanted and loved, does it matter? |
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For some people still to believe that one day one wakes up and choses their sexuality is sad beyond belief. And being controversial here, in my opinion the so called 'normal' people who worry about predatory homosexuals recruiting youngsters to their perverted club, are exactly the sort of people who harbour secret desires about their own sexual leanings. |
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Nice opening posts by the way, and welcome to the caring, sharing world of Accy Web. |
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In my humble opinion, it is prety uncharted waters how do you gamble and say well lets try it and see if it works, all adoptions are somewhat a gamble no matter what sex the parents are, the adoptees could divorce or go to gaol, life is full of 'ifs an ands', the welfare of the children is paramount, and all that realy matters is that a decent monitoring service is in place, 'not to interfere' but as a fail safe back up if things go pear shaped. So why not?
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Most child abuse in this country takes place in 'normal' families.
FACT. |
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We seem to have meandered from the point a little. Gay couples do adopt. This isn't about a law permitting them to adopt or banning them from adopting. It's about a law forcing an adoption agency to place children with gay couples rather than referring those couples to another agency. The Catholic church doesn't want to stop gay couples adopting, they just want to opt out of being the ones who organise it.
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If they are abusing children then they are not normal! |
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Jambutty why don't you write to Louise Brown's parents, and tell them they shouldn't really be enjoying being new grandparents, as their union didn't produce a normal child, and they had to resort to having the world's first test tube baby?
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It is wandering, but when reasons are given that such adoptions might produce homosexual children through learned behaviour, that needs to be challenged. |
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EXACTLY..........................and if anyone here on this forum can show me a normal FAMILY.............not only will I eat my Knickers!!! I will also call them a LIAR!!!! Family life does NOT come with a book on DO's and DONT's............ you muddle through the way you think right at the time. And I'm sorry............EVEN a LESBIAN or GAY man could do that!!!! |
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Crack and HIV/Aids babies are available from the Chatholic Aid adoption agency here in California, usually mixed race , I know a lesbian couple who have one of each
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Its great for debate.. but laws have been passed by an elected Parliment.. church V parliment.. and there is no way any religion should have the arrogence to suppose they can claim exemption to any elected body.. you voted for a Goverment.. not a religion
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So are you saying Mancie that the Catholic church should have no rights?
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'Children raised in gay or lesbian households do not show any greater incidence of homosexuality or gender identity issues than other children.'
http://www.healthyminds.org/glbissues.cfm |
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Willow.. the Catholic church should have the same rights as any other faith.. but why should they claim exemption from the law?
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Children are people- people will be what they want to be, it's a wonderful world isn't it.........:) |
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Hold on a cotton pickin' minute ( :D love it rindy) Where did Muslim come into this?? have I totally lost the plot or was we talking about gay rights to adopt?? |
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back to original thread.....I wrote in my original message that the Catholic Church here in California allows Gay couples to adopt , the couple who I know, made the choice to adopt "difficult " to place babies, the ones that 'normal' folks don't usually want , they did it out of love , not any sort of 'gay' guilt . :rolleyes: |
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TRUE................................. |
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Good POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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I have been watching you on " who's on line" and it has taken you 46 minutes to reply to my post.........................DUMB ARSE |
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Zap her and see if she howls like Madhatter.:D
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Dude...sure. |
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I'll join you for lunch!!!! |
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You can't have it both ways. If the law says that all adoption agencies must arrange adoptions for gay couples then the rights of the Catholic church are superceded by that law. As another example where exemption is permitted: Abortion is legal in this country but some surgeons can opt out if it goes against their personal beliefs. Not all surgeons perform abortions. If all surgeons were to be forced by law to perform abortions then the ones who could not in all conscience live with themselves if they did so would have to give up being surgeons - thus causing a lot of people to miss out on other vital operations. Why cannot the Catholic adoption agencies just deal with same sex couples and refer the gay couples to other agencies, just as they do now and just as doctors who could not personally condone an abortion do not insist that their patient doesn't have one but refers that patient to someone who is willing to deal with it? |
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She joined long before Madhatter. ;) |
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mash up .. don't mess my posts up girls.. rindy makes the mashed spuds at the nursin home every sunday!
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OKEY DOKEY..................
if were having it .........lets have it straight............. same sex relationships adopting babies?? wrong or right.................. People of the same family having a baby WRONG or RIGHT?? |
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Here's a thought - how be if Catholic adoption agencies only deal with applications by Catholics? Would that be acceptable in law?
If so, it would solve the problem because if gay civil partnerships are frowned on by the Catholic church there will be no gay Catholc couples and consequently no gay Catholic couples applying to adopt - so no problem with the Catholic adoption agency turning them away. |
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ok.......................Friend, and very good friend. Her Brother married someone in Pakistan that was related. Last Christmas she lost her nephew ( 3 years old) because......he had conflicting genes from both mother and father. My friend is also married to someone that is related to her. Although she will not be having children with this man ( because she can't stand him) she was offered the test to see if she carried the gene, and if her future children were at risk.
Now..........the point is.............. Life>> or follow on because you have to do what other people think you should do?? |
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There may not have been as many babies to adopt if the Catholic Church had allowed Condoms!
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which comes back to my last post on religion............which..........is all about dictatorship. |
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Willow.. your suggestion leads us back to the same thing.. is the Catholic Church or any religion exempt from the law laid down by parliment.. an elected parliment of whatever party? do we go down the road were we make exemptions for Muslims,Catholics,mormons,buddists,or all faiths.. what is the point of making laws that bar discrimnation if some orginisations can claim exclusion?
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no matter what colour,religion,background or sexuality people are from.......everyone has the right to be a parent......and it's what they do with those privileges that count. |
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It's a shame there are so many prejudice people knocking about.
As long as it isn't harming anyone else!!! what the hell has it got to do with the PC brigade. HMMMMMMMMMM maybe because the PC Brigade rule this bloody country now on WHAT people should and shouldn'tt be doing. :(:(:( Freedom of speech Freedom of choice....................... whatever!!! It's a shambles. too many cheifs and not enough Indians I say......... |
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;) |
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LMAO!!!!!!!!!! I can see what you mean ;) roflmao |
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Well, trying to look at this from my own point of view I would hope for a bit of understanding from the Government and from the rest of the population if there was some law passed which tried to force me to do something which was against my beliefs. Another thought: If a law was passed saying that every adult had to give a pint of blood each year to keep NHS stocks up I would hope an exemption would be made for the Jehovah's Witnesses even though I'm not one. If we are to be a tolerant society then we need to be tolerant of everyone, not just selected groups. Quote:
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Firstly I'd like to say that I am 100% behind gay couples being able to adopt.
Secondly I'd like to point out that the 'female nurturing role' is a result of socialisation, not of nature, which has meant some people in this forum are very misinformed. Also, I cannot believe the amount of ignorance in this forum! "Being brought up by gay parents means you're gunna turn out gay, that can't be allowed" WHAT?! That's the most absurd argument I've ever heard. Homosexuality is not a disease, it's an expression of freedom and human rights for many people. Even I as a heterosexual person can see that. The bottom line is, if the child is going to be loved in a safe environment with a family, rather than in a care home being just another statistic, then how can anyone object to that? Common sense? Common ignorance more like. |
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My opinion is of course they should be allowed. Why the hell not??? As long as they give them a good home and life then thats fine.
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why dont they just leave them to it? like i said before druggies ruin there kids lives and peodofiles ruin kids lives........just let them be
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