Re: gay adoption
 

Hear, Hear!!!!

Re: gay adoption
 

Oh, we have someting similar. Just that religion didn't play into it so much. I've a bit of experience, as I am an adoptive parent.:cool:

Re: gay adoption
 

Mancie is sadly ill-informed. When corrected, Mancie takes the lazy way out and defends a losing position. Not only that, but Mancie shows a real prejudice against Americans.

In the early days of AIDS, gay communities worldwide were disproportionately affected, due to the nature of their sexual practices. They also had one of the most effective campaigns to educate their own community (and the larger community as well) about how transmission of AIDS could be prevented. Result? The bulk of new AIDS cases happen in other groups.

Re: gay adoption
 

Steeljack, I will even take it a step further. I admire folks who adopt. It is a very generous act and, as anyone who has raised a child will testify, one that has a high potential for being very difficult (or very rewarding).

Re: gay adoption
 

...
No... I'ts more like un'common sense.The best thing in life is to be loved,and it does'nt matter to me who gives the love,because everbody has a right to give it.

Re: gay adoption
 

Slinky...maybe I have misunderstood your post where you cite freedom of choice....isn't that what the Catholic adoption agencies are being denied....a freedom to choose where they place their children to be adopted? They do not choose to say that same sex couple may not adopt children.....only that they may not adopt children from THEM...they will, however, facilitate the same sex couple to adopt by DIRECTING them to a society who allow for same sex partners adopting. What is wrong with that? In fact the Catholic Church is being discriminated against by being forced by law to abandon their long held teachings.
And as for the posts that decry the Catholic Church for hiding child abuse - that isn't what this thread is about..it is a totally different subject and should be dealt with separately.

In ALL adoptions the childs needs should be seen as paramount and that should be the ONLY factor in determining who should adopt.

Re: gay adoption
 

The fact is though the Catholic view is completely discriminative and without reason.

Just drawing absurd conclusions from age old idiocies.

Re: gay adoption
 

No it isn't, but there is more than a touch of irony about it.

Re: gay adoption
 

What about Catholics who run B & B's or hotels?

Should there views be taken into account in law, were by they can refuse, and discriminate against same sex couples who want a double room, or for that fact unmarried couples?

Re: gay adoption
 

The Catholic Church didn't seem to hold much store by the Law in these cases of child abuse. They were quite happy just to move the priest to another Parish, where very often they went on to offend again. In fact they did everything in their power to stop the Law from bringing the Priests to a judical trial.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_C...ex_abuse_cases

Re: gay adoption
 

Actually I think yes, if you run a business whatever it is you should be able to choose who you deal with. Good business sense dictates that you don't turn customers away but at the end of the day you should be allowed to refuse whoever you want. It's the same point as Margaret has been making - it's not that the catholic church is saying that a same sex couple can't adopt (or can't stay in a b&b) just that they would rather not facillitate it.

The catholic church is coming in for a bit of flak here but it's only sticking to its principles. On lots of other threads haven't we discussed how the fabric of society is being eroded away by relaxing laws, accommodating other cultures etc. On this one, they're trying to stick to their guns.

Btw - I personally feel that same sex couples could be good parents and should be allowed to adopt but I actually support the catholic church's point of view.

Re: gay adoption
 

i have mixed feelings about same sex couples adopting and although i think same sex couples can provide as stable enviroment for a child i do think that man and wife couples should be given prefernce basicly because mum and dad is how its supposed to be , you can argue to your blue in teh teeth but if it was supposed to be mum and mum or dad and dad then there wouldnt be 2 sex's

saying that 2 gay parents is better than none

its probably more difficult for a gay male based couple to get a child because their options are limited where as lesbian couples can resort to a one night stand to get pregnant or the old turkey baster


also despite how much peopel claim we have got better at accepting homosexuality its a whole different ball game in teh school yard and i could imagine a lot of hassle and bullying for a child that was from a gay household

some things i agree with , some things i dont but this one to me i have mixed feelings on

i dont agree whenn peopel say teh child will grow up gay as well because like it was best put in will and grace when a man refused to sit next to a gay man

"homosexuality is genetic you cant catch it"

Re: gay adoption
 

From April in England and Wales it will be illegal to refuse services, including accomodation, based on a person's sexual orientation. It was passed on a 199 to 68 majority earlier this month.

Being concerned with local rather than national politics, perhaps you missed this rather important news story.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6243323.stm

Re: gay adoption
 

No, I'm well aware of the story. I am totally for human rights and every single person is equal in my mind - I wouldn't refuse you b&b - but surely if we're talking human rights then every person also has the right to deal with whoever they want. Be honest, would you want to go and stay at a b&b where you knew that the landlord was only having you on sufference?

Just as an aside - I was refused entry to a gay club a while back because I was with a man and clearly straight! I wasn't thrilled but I didn't make a fuss because it was the policy of the club!

Re: gay adoption
 

Thankfully from April the Law states differently.

Re: gay adoption
 

If you were going to a town that only had one b&b then it would be very frustrating if they were to refuse you on the grounds of your sexuality or even unmarriedness - yes I agree. But equally, if you were heading to Blackpool - where there are a large number of b&bs - would you really want to stop in the one with the disapproving landlady or wouldn't you rather move next door to the one with welcoming arms?

Re: gay adoption
 

Not the point. The Law will stop that discrimination, even if it goes against the beliefs of the owner, manager, or even the receptionist.

Re: gay adoption
 

My point is that it will not stop the landlady or business owner from being anti-gay. By forcing them to do something which is against their principles is that right. I'm not saying that I like it and I don't think anybody should discriminate against anybody but what I don't like is people being forced not to discriminate - it leads to less understanding and less tolerance.

Re: gay adoption
 

Beliefs or principles should NEVER justify discrimination

Re: gay adoption
 

Perhaps the next time I'm discriminated against by Muslim women, when asked to choreograph a fashion show, and told they can't work with me, I'll be seeking legal advice as to whether I should sue.:D

Re: gay adoption
 

Surely that contradicts human rights.

And we're onto a very difficult area here because it is some people's belief that they can have sex with children - I personally would discrimate against them.

Re: gay adoption
 

Should the Klu Klux Klan's beliefs be respected in Law as well then?

After all, not doing so could infringe upon their human rights, or that of any far right organization's.

Re: gay adoption
 

I KNEW you weren't ok about that!

I'm sorry and the problem arose because I never for one minute thought that there would be a problem - I'm so naive I just thought I'd get the right person in for the right job! That's because I believe everyone should just get on and no one should be discriminated against! :D When I was informed there was a bit of a problem I had to sort it out which I realise upset you but I was in a 'needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one' situation.

Re: gay adoption
 

There is a fine line between having a belief and being allowed to believe it all on your own and doing something that infringes upon someone elses human rights. The line here is that the Klu Klux Klan drum up racial hatred and that infringes on the human rights of the people that they are opposed to. So yes, they can hold the beliefs - I don't like it but they can hold them - but going out and burning effigies of people that they're against, then no, that should not be respected in law.

If you're going to preach total tolerance then it shouldn't be one way - you have to accept that other people may not like your lifestyle (and I'm talking generally here, not directly at you Garinda).

Re: gay adoption
 

That's so good, perhaps the BNP might use it on their leaflets at the next election.:D

Re: gay adoption
 

I met a man from the BNP once - he was abhorrant and I hated his views, he annoyed and upset me and I told him so! I only took comfort in the fact that the majority do not share his views.

I think my overall point is that 'live and let live' - people should just get on.

Actually, thinking about it - the one good thing about the anti-discriminating laws with regards to b&bs, etc, means that when the BNP take control they will then have their work cut out trying to revoke those self same laws.

Re: gay adoption
 

Somehow I dont think the BNP will take much notice of a bunch of ululating harpies :D :D they will be too busy fixing all the damage done over the last few years by the progresive left. ;) ;)

Re: gay adoption
 

If as chav1 says 'homosexuality is genetic' then slinky's statement is wrong. If nature, and not the individual, has chosen homosexuality nature has denied the individual the means of creating a child by natural means. Therefore, a homosexual does not have the right to be a parent.

Re: gay adoption
 

So the logical conclusion of what you're saying is that B&Bs, pubs, restaurants, shops or any business should be free to put up signs saying "No blacks served here"? Must admit I'd wouldn't have expected that from you, Gayle.

Re: gay adoption
 

Well you've got me there (eventually) Wynonie - I'd certainly never advocate that. I guess I'm saying that they are allowed to have those views, just not impose them on anyone else. I'm just nervous about laws that tell people how to not discriminate as it causes more frustration, anger and upset from the racists and homophobes.

Re: gay adoption
 

Maybe, but don't you think it's the lesser of two evils? If you don't have the laws and people can refuse service, or accommmodation, or employment to people because of the colour of their skin or their sexual orientation, won't it cause even more resentment and anger? I must admit, I'm quite taken aback by the fact that you seem to want to repeal the race and gender discrimination laws. I'm sure there's plenty on here that do, but you're the last person I would have expected it from!

Re: gay adoption
 

But for different reasons - I don't like to think they should be needed because I want to see a country where discrimination doesn't exist in the first place.

Re: gay adoption
 

Come on, Gayle, we live in the real world and we know they ARE needed. I've no time for Ba Ba Black Sheep PC-derived garbage or positive discrimination, quota lists or all the rest of it. But I'm glad that anti-discrimination laws are in place because I would not like to think of myself walking into a pub and being told "We're not going to serve you because your wife's coloured." And if there were no such laws, that could happen!

Re: gay adoption
 

But going back on thread for a second - gay adoption isn't discriminated against completely and there are many agencies that allow it, the catholic church is simply saying that it does not want to go against years of its teaching and that it suggests that gay couples go elsewhere.

The next thing that will happen is women wanting equal rights to be priests. ;)

Re: gay adoption
 

Same principle, ain't it? If you give an exemption over adoption laws to the Catholic church, you've opened a Pandora's Box and others will start asking for it - "I want an exemption to the discrimination laws, so I don't have to serve coloured people in my pub, because it goes against my racist beliefs that I've held for years. If they want a drink, they're quite free to go elsewhere."

Come on, Gayle! I'm supposed to be the hidebound reactionary and you're supposed to be the free-thinking liberal! ;)

Re: gay adoption
 

Well I think I am taking the liberal approach - everyone should be allowed to do what they want! Discrimination laws turn it on its head and start to discriminate against the discriminaters.

Race discrimination and gay discrimination are slightly (and again we're on that thin line, so very slightly) different.

Re: gay adoption
 

So basically, you're saying that discrimination laws should be scrapped? That people should be free to refuse to serve someone in a pub because they're coloured, free to refuse someone accommodation because they're gay, free to refuse to give someone a job because they're female?

And why are race discrimination and gay discrimination different? They're both examples of irrational prejudice. Are you saying that gay discrimination is more acceptable than race discrimination?

Oh well, you're entitled to your views, but I find them puzzling.

Re: gay adoption
 

The Catholic Church will not allow condoms to help stem the aids plague or overpopulation either,because they believe sex is for procreation purposes only, not because it makes sense? If laws are introduced they must be for all, and no exceptions for anyone or do not make them.

Re: gay adoption
 

How?

Discrimination is either wrong or right, you can't start picking and chosing which you, or any other groups views, you like or happen to agree with.

My first post in this thread stated that if you are going to respect all faith groups, then you also must respect the Catholic church's view re:adoption.

This thread has helped me change my mind.

If you are going to have anti-discrimination laws they should apply across the board, and there should be no exemptions.

Perhaps if the Catholic adoption agencies feel that they are no longer able to comply with the laws of the land, then perhaps they should do something else instead.

Perhaps they could throw their weight behind a contraception campaign, so there are less babies waiting to be adopted in the first place.

Am disappointed, but not suprised, that that old homophobe Jambutty has failed or even to attempted to answer my earlier questions, regarding the incidence of homosexuality versus hetrosexuality resulting from gay parents, or commenting on the fact as to why the same hetrosexual couple, giving the same 'normal' role models, can result in both hetro and homosexual offspring.

Disappointed..but not suprised, perhaps.

Sad, but laughable.

Re: gay adoption
 

Wrong.

There is in fact an offical Papal edict which allows the use of condoms, to prevent the spread of the HIV virus, as long as it has a hole in it, and I don't mean the end the gentleman's winky goes in!

Absolutely laughable.

The Jesus I know, if he came back to day, would be shocked and saddened at the Cathoic church's views interprutations of his teachings.

His message was of love, not one of sin, and damnation, and guilt and the get out of jail card, meaning confession.

As for the treatment of children, I bet 100% that he would rather children were loved and cared for in a family, any family, rather than left in any effin' orphanage.

Re: gay adoption
 

The Jesus I know, if he came back to day, would be shocked and saddened at the Cathoic church's views interprutations of his teachings.-------didn,t realise you were THAT old Rindy.:D

Re: gay adoption
 

Lol, I think he'd also be shocked at my spelling!

Damn you edit button..:D

Re: gay adoption
 

May I just ask a personal question here? Isn't there in same sex relationships, a role played out by one being the female, t'other the male?
Just askin like, probably being naive. In that case, would qualify as being normal parental roles?

Am sure any child being taken on by Gay couples would have a wonderful life .... housework attended to, wonderful cooking, dressed in the fashion of the day, bodily cleanliness adhered to, seeking best schooling, etc., and most of all being really wanted.

On the flip side, there is always the question that you would all ask yourselves if your son were invited on holiday with the son of a Gay couple, would their sexual leanings spill over to the detriment of your offspring? Course this is rubbish, I know .. but always this question at the back of your minds, isn't there? and sure you would interrogate your young on return... no matter how you have supported this cause in your posts.

Having said this, hetrosexuals have a much worse track record. I, myself, have been 'the victim' of 'advances' from friend's fathers in my early teens, and would trust a gay person over hetrosexuals any day.

Re: gay adoption
 

Double edged sword garinda, knowing full well they are on a safe bet that no man in his right mind would knowingly go with a woman who had AIDS with 50 condoms on. "do they allow it for aids"? I thought it was only the rhythm method, which is ok as long as your not deaf.

Re: gay adoption
 

Re: gay adoption
 

So, Willow, you also would want to repeal the existing discrimination laws so that people are free to refuse service, accommodation or jobs to others purely on the basis of race, gender or sexual orientation? Don't you think it would be major step backwards? How would you feel if you applied for a vacancy and they told you, "Sorry, you're well-qualified to do the job, but we don't want a woman." Would you walk away, contented, thinking, "Well, at least I know where I stand."

And if you'd want to refuse the right of the BNP to hold a conference, why do you defend the anti-gay beliefs of the Catholic church? Surely, both are based on irrational prejudice, or do you, as Gayle appears to, think that homophobia somehow isn't quite as bad as racism?

Re: gay adoption
 

That is ABSOLUTELY not what I mean at all.

I've been giving this a lot of thought and it's not something that I can answer rashly. In the words of big brother 'I'll get back to you'.

Re: gay adoption
 

Is it not? Well, that's what you've said:

I shall await your considered response with interest!

Re: gay adoption
 

And again

Why are they different?

Re: gay adoption
 

Incidentally, Gayle, I've just been rereading some of the posts in this thread and I noticed this which presumably refers to the fashion show you organised as part of your "do" at tht town hall. I assume that the muslim women wouldn't work with Garinda because he was bloke. Can I just ask, if you were organising a similar event with white women and they refused to work with a girl because she was Asian, would you still go ahead because "the needs of many outweighs the needs of one".

Re: gay adoption
 

This thread has raised an awful lot of issues, some of which contradict others. I’ve given it a lot of thought and slept on it to try and put my views into a reasonable order. Just as an aside Wynonie, this sort of emotive issue is why I wouldn’t make a good MP – too many factors to confuse the issue - in future, I think I’ll stick to potholes on Union Road.

Anyway, to clarify my thoughts – except that now that I’ve written it all out it’s not clarification, it’s a huge amount of contradictions – so apologies before you start reading.

1. my own personal views on discrimination

I do not discriminate against any single person and treat everybody as individuals – some I like and some I don’t like. In an ideal world (which I realise doesn’t exist) there would be no discrimination and therefore no need for discrimination laws. People would take other people for what they are and not judge them on colour, sexual preference or gender.

However, Willow raised an interesting point about BNP – I find everything that group stands for to be abhorrent and would love to stop them from existing. The problem is that if I preach that everyone should be free to think what they want to think then by my own definition I am allowing them that freedom too. So contradiction number one – I hate discrimination in every form, yet I would clearly be happy to discriminate against anyone who discriminates against other people.

2. the real world of discrimination

The real world, as Wynonie points out, contains discrimination all around us based on colour, sexual preference and gender, and other factors. Laws should exist so that people can not discriminate against anyone else based on any of those factors. The laws should exist to provide a level playing field and to allow everyone freedom of choice. The laws should be about ensuring that no one is discriminated against and so inciting racial or sexual orientation hatred should not be allowed. However, there is a fine line between thinking racially or putting up a sign saying ‘no blacks/gays/etc in here’. Going back to human rights issues you can not stop some people from thinking those things. I don’t like people thinking those things but the fact is that some people do. I agree that they should not be allowed to put up signs of that nature. Education and understanding are essential to break down these barriers. So contradiction number two – I do not like the thought that we need discrimination laws and yet I accept that they are necessary.

3. the catholic churches (or any other religion’s) teachings vs government edicts

I have a real problem with the government imposing itself on any religious group, (particularly one which has 1000s of years of teaching under its belt), if you start down that route you have to insist that women are allowed to become priests, gay couples can get married in a church, women should be allowed into the inner rooms in a mosque, etc. In other words you have to completely pick apart the basic cornerstones of each and every faith to a point where there is nothing left except a group of people who get together every Sunday morning for a sing-song.
If you start unpicking the basic teachings then surely you will end up a point where there is nothing left.

At a time when we in the UK are losing our family support systems the church is a much needed place for a lot of people. Other people have argued that the lack of faith in the country is one of the main contributors to the lack of structure that we have so surely we should be bolstering up the faiths and support churches more giving us a sense of belonging and a structure.

Contradiction number three – I agree that there are many instances where the church is outdated but I am just a bit worried about where it will all stop.

So finally, back to the original question on this thread

4. should the catholic church be forced to promote gay adoptions?

Well, gay adoptions are not against the law – the government has already ensured that gay couples can adopt within the law. There are agencies that work with gay couples to allow them to adopt and so if a gay couple wished to adopt they would have many places to which they can turn. The catholic church is not saying that they would stop gay adoptions taking place, they are simply saying that they will not facilitate them. For that reason, and with the caveat that they don’t actively oppose gay adoption, then I see no reason to change their stance. By imposing laws ‘forcing’ people to go against their beliefs you give rise to the whole homophobic and racist groups out there. It fuels their arguments that the country is being diluted and that it will no longer be their own. This in turn allows groups like BNP to stand up and gain support.

So, final contradiction, although less so, I personally do not like discrimination however I do feel that the catholic church should be allowed to maintain their beliefs on this issue.


Finally, Wynonie, you asked if I feel that homophobia is different to racism. Well, no I think that both are the same and equally repulsive. I accept that I made a mistake with an earlier phrase that said race discrimination and gay discrimination are different – they aren’t, they’re both exactly the same and equally wrong. However, what I meant to say is that being gay is slightly (and note slightly) different to being born with a brown skin – I’m not saying it’s a lifestyle choice because it isn’t, I realise that ‘gayness’ can not be taught. However, there are a number of gay people who are still ‘in the closet’ for want of a better phrase – they themselves are hiding their ‘gayness’ – yet being born of asian or black parents is not something that you can hide. What I’m saying is that it is not me who is defining that there is a difference, it is gay people themselves who choose to not come out. If more people were more open about it perhaps there would not be the same stigmas attached to it in the first place.


So, two sides of A4 later and all I really know is that this issue is massive, the people who took the decisions to introduce the law probably didn’t go into it lightly and that I could not have done it myself.

Re: gay adoption
 

Different circumstances on different days require different decisions. There were a lot of factors involved and I made the right decision on that day.

Re: gay adoption
 

Crikey, Gayle, I don't really know what to say after that little lot! I keep starting to write "you've said you believe xxxxxxxxxxx but you're condoning xxxxxxxxxxxx" then I stop because I notice you've admitted the contradictions yourself!

All I can say is that your following statement is at the heart of my argument:

As some bloke said on TV this morning, "let's not disguise prejudice as principles." The fact is, the Catholic church is prejudiced against gays and to call it a "belief" is to bestow upon it a dignity it doesn't deserve. It is just as illogical and immoral as the KKK's belief that the black race is inferior. To allow an organisation (even one with thousands of years of tradition) to indulge in its prejudices by opting out of an anti-discrimination law would be wrong and would give the wrong signal to others. However, we're going round in circles so I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Right, I'm now going to quietly remove my woolly liberal hat and retire to the pub!

Re: gay adoption
 

Perhaps we should look at it another way though

Are they discriminating or are they choosing to not discriminate? By politely pointing someone down the road to the adoption agency that will help them are they actually discriminating or are they opting out of the argument?

If they were holding up placards saying 'ban gay adoptions' then yes, that is discrimination but they're not doing - in fact, they were actually helping gay couples by pointing them in the right direction. But now they are no longer able to sit on the fence, which is effectively where they were, and either have to fight against the law or accept it lying down - either way, no one looks good.

Re: gay adoption
 

Just got the ok to get blasted, so i'm off to the WM Club, to see if there are any good topics down there, Gayle if I see you I'll buy you one for writers cramp, you sure must have it:D

Re: gay adoption
 

That is exactly the argument used for denying African-Amaericans housing, lodgings, hospital care and food in restaurants, prior to civil rights legislation The individual still has the right to choose with whom they will associate, but if they choose to make their living from the public, they must conform with the law. If discimination becomes allowable in one place, where do you stop?

Re: gay adoption
 

Nonsense!

If you follow that argument to it's illogical conclusion, then women who cannot conceive should also not have the right to adopt. Or my cousin, who lost the ability due to ovarian cysts.

Re: gay adoption
 

Right, so if you applied for a job and they said "you're just right for the job but we don't employ women in senior positions, however there's a company down the road that does, try there." would you be happy, Gayle?

I'll tell you something, if I went into a pub with Mrs H and they said, however politely, "we don't serve coloureds here, but there's a pub down the road that does." I would not be a happy Wynonie!

Re: gay adoption
 

Exactly! Hit the nail right on the head!

Re: gay adoption
 

Please don't put words into my mouth.

Actually jobs are often refused to people on the basis of them being the wrong colour. If a firm has to fill a certain quota of employees from ethnic minorities then a perfectly well qualified person of a paler complexion may well be refused the job. Personally I believe we should have total equality for all and that the best qualified person should be the one for the job regardless of race creed colour or quotas. Discriminating in favour of one group causes discrimination against another. In some positions where it is felt that there are not enough women then a perfectly qualified man could be turned down in favour of a less qualified woman. I also believe that this is wrong.

You see the Catholic church's beliefs as irrational prejudice. I see them as a specific part of their doctrine which they should not be forced to compromise. In a day and age when we permit sikhs to opt out of wearing crash helmets because they wear turbans which are a part of their beliefs why can we make exceptions for them and yet insist that we cannot make exceptions for others? As several of us have already said, the Catholic church does not seek to prevent adoption by gay couples, only to request that they be allowed to pass them on to other agencies.

As for the BNP - do you really think I would be wrong for not wanting to have their racist and homophobic attitude on my premises? I find them utterly repulsive and would rather go to jail than to be seen supporting them.

Re: gay adoption
 

So why are people supporting discrimination against Catholicism?




How far would you suggest the state intereferes in religion? Should there be laws insisting that Catholics permit women to hold the priesthood? After all, it's denying them an equal opportunity and discriminating isn't it?

Re: gay adoption
 

But Willow, you're discriminating against their core beliefs, what would you do? Show them the conference centre down the road instead?

Religion/beliefs/principles whatever you want to call them should never enter into the law if true equality is to be gained. They are but mere irrational opinions, never working for the majority - and since we are a utilitarian nation these opinions can not enter into the laws we live by.

Re: gay adoption
 

Re: gay adoption
 

Re: gay adoption
 

So do I. That's why I said in an earlier post that I've no time for positive discrimination and all that PC malarky.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowTheWisp (Post 375968) As for the BNP - do you really think I would be wrong for not wanting to have their racist and homophobic attitude on my premises? I find them utterly repulsive and would rather go to jail than to be seen supporting them.

No, I think you're quite right. That's why I can't understand why you support homophobia when it comes from the Catholic church.

Re: gay adoption
 

I have refrained from adding to my original post mainly because over the weekend there have been three football matches to watch and I wanted to see who said what about what. In other words I was interested to read other people’s opinion on this issue before joining back in the discussion.

Homosexuality is a genetic thing. Somehow the union of genes has got screwed. The homosexual child will not be aware of its sexual orientation until around puberty, although there could be pointers before then that are not understood by the child or the parents for that matter.

In general a girl child of a heterosexual couple will be brought up as a girl and a boy child as a boy.

As one dinosaur to another I was not aware that just because my opinion differs from yours that makes me and it ignorant.

If the best that you can do is to call my opinion homophobic crap and me ignorant instead of coming back with a reasoned argument then as far as I’m concerned you can go and jump in the nearest lake. Forum etiquette prevents me from being more expressive but I’m sure your limited imagination will be able to put some meat on those bones.

Re: gay adoption
 

No but a lesbian woman with an adopted daughter might. Same as a gay man with an adopted son might.

Are you aware that one girl in ten is sexually abused by her own father and to a much lesser extent boys are sexually abused by their mother. Not to mention by older siblings and aunts and uncles.

I'll grant you that sexual orientation is not contagious in the true sense of the word but it can be learned.

Re: gay adoption
 

Re: gay adoption
 

wow the shortest sentance to come outta your computer ever :eek: i'm amazed....( only jokin) ;)

Re: gay adoption
 

Re: gay adoption
 

Jambutty, football or not, I notice you still haven't come up with any evidence to back up your original statements.

Suprise, suprise.

Do let me know if you do.

Re: gay adoption
 

Care to expand on that?

As to me it just seems like more nonsensical waffle.

Re: gay adoption
 

i wouldnt mind teh catholic church having an opinion on this matter if their churches wernt led by peodophiles and perverts

not saying all priests etc are this way but throwing stones in green houses springs to mind

any religeon in my mind shouldnt have an opinion on anything , anything they do feel needs to be said shoudl be kept in their churches and said to their followers , they in no way shoudl have any say regarding my or anyone elses life especialy those people that arnt catholic

preach their rubbish to their congregations because they are the only peopel who want to hear it , if i wanted to hear their opinion i would go to church ,infact if tehir god is so almighty and powerfull then the least he can do is drop me an email when he decides to talk to me

i dont deal with middle men if gods got anything to say he knows where to find me

chav waits for thunderbolt :D

Re: gay adoption
 

Jambutty, like I said earlier, your view's, like the other Dinosaurs before you, will soon be happily extinct.:)

Re: gay adoption
 

You really should read posts and try and understand what is written in them. Just show me where I have ever stated that I served in the Royal Navy for 20 years? THIRTEEN YEARS!

I also resent your implication and if you had said it my face you would be flat on your back gasping for air by now with more than a bruised ego.

Re: gay adoption
 

not sure myself but i THINK hes saying a gay couple would dress a boy in ribbons and fabulous accesories to match

thats the way i read it anyway but without further explination i wont commit my self any further lol

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Threatening people now?

Macho man, lolllllll:D

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Bored now.

Need more intelligent, and challenging arguments than you could possibly come up with.

Ciao.:)

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garinda minces off in that direction --------->

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my apolgies , 13 yrs , ;) ;)

Re: gay adoption
 

In answer to the opening question I have posted my opinion that the Catholic Church should not be allowed to opt out of the current adoption laws.
I also offered the opinion that homosexual couples should not be allowed to adopt children and gave my reasons why.

If some people cannot accept that I am just as entitled as they are to have an opinion and they start casting aspersions and indulging in childish name calling because my opinion differs to theirs then they are to be pitied, but not by me. I have nothing but contempt for such individuals.

No words or deeds will ever convince me otherwise that a gay couple COULD groom a young lad to satisfy their disgusting sexual needs and that possibility should be enough not to risk an innocent child’s welfare. Similarly a lesbian couple COULD groom a young girl.

Re: gay adoption
 

Accepted!

I have to add some more words because the system told me to.

Re: gay adoption
 

yeah but dosnt teh same aply to straight couples , theres been stories of foster parents abusing kids as well

although i dont find the idea of sex between 2 men at all tastefull i wouldnt say been a homo makes you a peodophile , if a gay couple are together it would suggest comitment to each other especialy with gay marages now and would be quite happy buggering each other just like hetrosexual couples enjoy sex between themselves

as for sex between 2 women i think this should be strongly encouraged :D

but not the mustache faced dungaree wearing ones :D

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Re: gay adoption
 

Alright, well, as you said, we're going round in circles and I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

Anyway, I'm tired of being an enlightened liberal now and I want to go back to my old life as a Labour-baiting reactionary. Now, about all these prisoners that have disappeared.... ;)

Re: gay adoption
 

But by the very same token a straight adoptive mother could abuse her adopted son or a straight adoptive father could abuse the adopted daughter. Are you saying that because a child is adopted the parents don't love them as a child but see them as a potential sexual partner? I know adoptive parents and they love their children as children. Potential adoptive parents are vetted by the agencies and as far as the Catholic agency is concerned (and I presume others are the same) the children are checked up on to see if all is well.

Now I know there have been cases of children being abused by foster parents and there was that infamous case of the paedophile ring, but that doesn't mean that all are the same.

Well there you go. If one girl in ten is sexually abused by her own father maybe the adopted children have a better chance of not being the victims of abuse. Some people who have children by natural means are really not fit to be parents and quite often children who have been abused by their own genetic parents are the ones who end up in care.

I disagree with that. Many things can be learned but sexual orientation is not a form of behaviour. If it's part of the physical make-up of the person it can no more be learned than double-jointedness or knock knees.

Re: gay adoption
 

Just read the thread and was not going to comment but I have just done a lesson on diversity and I was amazed that some of the kids I teach are more open and understanding then some of the adults on here. In the lesson I used the anlogy of a ladder.
Picture a ladder with three rungs on it. Each of these rungs is spaced widely from the next, making it impossible to reach one without first reaching the one directly below it. Rising to the next rung requires a big stretch that would be difficult for someone who is stiff and inflexible, while someone who is limber could more easily make the ascent. The way we each deal with diversity develops in a progression like this ladder.
First rung Recognition. "Racist," "bigot," and "ignorant" are some of the words which are aimed at those who are locked in the stage of recognition. These are people who respond negatively when they come in contact with someone they don't understand or who is different from them. The problem here is a lack of information. This ignorance can cause trouble in two ways.
Second rung Tolerance. Remember that what keeps people locked in the recognition stage is a lack of information. So, in order for one to move on to the second stage, that of tolerance, one must ask questions. As we learn about the unknown, it becomes easier to accept as reality, like adjusting the focus control on a camera. When we make the effort, we can see details that we might otherwise have missed.
Third rung Celebration. Celebrating diversity is the equation for true synergy, whether you happen to be a smooth-talking student leader or a well-organized adviser. By acknowledging that every member of your community, organization, or family has something to contribute, and recognizing that his or her contributions add value to your life, you are moving toward the stage of celebration.

Re: gay adoption
 

No there shouldnt be any exemptions

Yes gay and lesbian people should be able to adopt.

To someone who has been discriminated against - mainly for jobs and been told to my face - why should anyone be discriminated against for anything?

Re: gay adoption
 

now jen what about Conservatives?:D

Re: gay adoption
 

I don't see has it matters weather the couple are gay or straight so long has the child is happy and loved.
They would have to go through the same processes as everybody else and is no body's business but their own.

Re: gay adoption
 

To each their own if you want to be blue be blue if you want to be red be red - im not bothered - the tories buy me my tea on election day if i catch the right person!!! lol:D

Re: gay adoption
 

Bazf, I have just read your contribution on diversity, to this very interesting debate I must admit being a bit slow on the uptake I read it several times, likening the spaces of the rungs on the ladder to the diffrering opinions voiced in this debate, made things a lot clearer for me to understand, the final rung summed it up perfectly. Thank you for that very valuable lesson.

Re: gay adoption
 

How are they discriminating against Catholicism? I don't see it!

If the Catholic Church chooses to participate in non-religious activities, such as adoption, then they must abide by the legal standard for that activity. They should not be allowed to discriminate.

Personal beliefs are fine, but they should not be allowed to impose on others. Example - we have pharmicists here in the USA who, because of their beliefs on abortion, are refusing to fill presciptions for the morning-after pill. As a result, there are some communities where is is difficult or impossible to obtain this medication. Their refusal to dispense legal medications should result in a warning the first time, and permanant revocation of their license the second time. If they don't want to dispense any and all legally-prescribed medication, then perhaps they should find a different line of work.

Re: gay adoption
 

good point Billcat but that poses the question which came first the chicken or the egg? i dont know.

Re: gay adoption
 

sorry Billcat, have to disagree with your logic on this one, are you saying a Pharmacist should be compelled to issue the morning after pill even if he/ she disagrees with it on moral grounds ? then it follows ....a doctor should be compelled to carry out abortions without using his/her own moral conscience, both actions have the same result . I dont really think that the morning-after pill can be described as medication , I've allways thought that medicine was was supposed to heal not kill .

Re: gay adoption
 

I don't think that anyone is contesting your right to have an opinion, even though we believe it to be based on a very ill-informed position.

jambutty, your opinion does seem to be pretty much of the "My mind is made up, so I don't need to deal with the facts," variety. While I find your opinion offensive, you are welcome express your own opinion. I would hope, however, that there would be a reasoned substantiation of your position, which has not been that case so far. Therefore, your posts do not hold up well when others in the discussion provide factual evidence that counters a number of your claims. Probably leaves you feeling frustrated as well, because the arguments (and evidence) are piling up in favor of the other side.

I would respectfully suggest that, having said your say (several times) and apparently with nothing to add beyond your personal opinion, that you consider bowing out gracefully from the discussion. Making threats, as you did recently, is really unacceptable. Be opinionated, be ardent, by all means, but please do not threaten.

Re: gay adoption
 

Bazf - a great post, one very worthy of the karma I just gave you! :bow8:

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