DNA Yea or Nay?
 

A proposal by one of our betters is that it would be fairer for everyones DNA to be held on record,rather than just criminals.
Thoughts on a postcard please,don't lick the stamp!:p

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myself i dont think its a bad thing, it would be a lot easier to check people out if they did do it for everyone, but thats just my opinion:D

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I agree with Flashy. Why not?? If you've done nothing wrong and don't plan on doing anything then why should you worry??

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I don't think it's a bad idea, after all if you have nothing to hide why should it bother you?

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I think the worry is that DNA profiles can be used to provide biometric information as to the likelyhood to our susceptibility to Cancer and other life threatening illness.
We would then find it difficult to get insurance or even certain jobs.

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I don't think it is a bad thing knowing what you are susceptible to because you can then change your lifestyle accordingly. I have found out quite a lot about cancer since Ian was diagnosed and avoiding certain things can help you to reduce your chances of getting it in the first place. I know it isn't a guarantee but surely if you can help yourself that is a good thing!!

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Fair comment Bernadette.I would still worry about the uses others could utilise the information though.
A good one for the conspiracy fans!:)

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if it was found out that more people would be suseptable to cancer then surely thats a good thing, the government might pull there finger out and get more resources to 1, educate people to be more aware of cancer and 2, put more money into cancer treatments

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Obviously Jambutty hasn't been online this afternoon or I'm pretty sure we would have had his views on this subject by now.;):D

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Could well be,though my personal belief is that we would have a two tier insurance system,people who were likely to develop illness would not receive cover for Mortgage payments for example.Perhaps employees would vet applicants,who knows?
If the political will was there it could be a good thing,though I wouldn't hold my breath.

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look at it from another point though, it may help stop the spreading of aids (yes i know you cant ever stop it but it may help)

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Yes there are positive uses.

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I am absolutely for yes it's one area that if your profile is known you should be less likely to abuse someone else, we have the technology the only people that will be frightened are those that otherwise would be tempted.

Although, to make it work, I think there would have to be re-assurances that DNA samples weren't used to check for passed crimes when given voluntarily, only crimes that happen after the sample is taken, (not because I have anything to hide, just to start with a level playing field and to keep us all in order).

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If they want it they can have it. I have no objections to having my DNA profile on a computer database as I have nowt to hide. If it helps get better treatment for a disease or cheaper insurance for not having a greater chance of getting one then bring it on. The benefits are greater than the the pitfalls.

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I would say yes if I thought it would make one iota of difference to the criminal element getting away with things...but I don't think it will make any difference at all.
So it is going to help nail all these crims and what will the honourable Judge Sedley do then......? Why, he'll slap them on the wrist, give them a ludicrously light sentence in a prison that is more like a holiday camp and then they will be let out again.

I also do not trust this government to run a database with such sensitive information on it and keep it safe.

I am a decent law abiding citizen and should have nothing to fear from such a move...but fear it I do...and I won't be offering my DNA at any time soon.

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i'm in favour of it no question, what i am not in favour of is a Rapist,or Murderer being able to voluntary give a sample then being IMMUNE from prosecution. that to me is 1 sure fire way of getting away with yer crime.:eek:

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And Judge Sedley has suggested that EVERYONE...even visitors to this country should have their DNA put onto this database....think of the logistical problems that this would create.

According to one article I read recently, the UK has the biggest DNA database in the world, yet we still have a large proportion of unsolved crime....some how the arguments don't stack up...call me an old cynic, but might there be an ulterior motive?

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i have no problems with giving dna
we are all on file from birth one more
line on your record wont make any difference

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I’ve been busy battling a load of cretins on another forum. You don't want to know which. But thanks for the mention Gayle.

No! No and thrice NO!

On no account should every single person in the country be DNA sampled without just cause. That is convicted of a crime. It wouldn’t do a great deal for solving a crime. After all many criminals do not leave a DNA sample at the scene.

Imagine the situation. You return your hire car/van/lorry and the person who hires it next is involved in some criminal activity using the vehicle. Your DNA is in that car but you were alone in bed at the time the crime was committed. Circumstantially you could be the one that the police are looking for because the real crook has arranged himself a nice alibi.

One of the arguments against hanging is that an innocent person may get hanged and it goes on that it is better that ten criminals go free rather than one innocent person being hanged. The same applies to DNA sampling.

I understand that the proposal would also include visitors to this country. Now that should speed up disembarkation at airports, seaports etc. But that aside the thought of the government having a database of everyone’s DNA has Orwellian overtones. I won’t even go down the computer security path. Then there is always the dishonest official with legitimate access to the database who fancies earning a bit on the side.

The “if you have nothing to hide” argument doesn’t wash with me at all. The majority of the people in this country have nothing criminal to hide but they do have private lives, with the operative word being private.

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Well said Jambutty. Every word a gem.

What happened to innocent until proven guilty......with a DNA databank i think you would be guilty until you could be proved innocent.

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it would definately be a detterant (sp)

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We are already guilty until we can prove our innocence with on the spot fines. The policeman/warden or whoever becomes prosecution, witness, judge and jury all rolled into one.

A deterrent flashytart? They said that about fingerprints. So how come our crime figures are beyond belief.

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Flashy, the only thing that would be a deterrent is for the country's judiciary to impose meaningful sentences.

Look at the guy who murdered his wife and children...he was given three life sentences..,,,,, which prison did they accommodate him in.....why an open prison of course. He was allowed to work outside the prison, to use his car to get to this job.....he assisted a group of other prisoners to escape and yet he is only going to serve a maximum of 13 years....or 4 years and 4 months for each person that he killed....not much of a deterrent is it?

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How would you feel if you were the family of those who had been killed by this man??????

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agree completely about that, but am still in favour of dna samples, you got to catch em before you can sentence em, i would be happy for the dna to be a starting point, PROPER sentancing should then soon follow, i hope.

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mp i was on about the dna, sorry if it was read wrong

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Cashy, you can hope all you like, but with jails already busting at the seams, I think that realistic sentencing is just a pipe dream.

If DNA was so useful in getting crimes solved.......then why aren't more crimes being solved?.......as I said previously we have the largest DNA database in the world(allegedly).

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If this system for combatting crime was to work, then the government would have to start thinking about buying space in foreign jails to accommodate all the criminals.

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or maybe build more jails?


surely it would make it easier to catch criminals if this dna testing went ahead?

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Maybe I misunderstood you there, but I still don't think having given DNA would be any kind of deterrent Flashy.

And giving DNA would perhaps compromise the security of individuals.
It would certainly infringe personal privacy.....and once you have voluntarily given that up then you are no better than a slave.

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dont really know enough about the database but accept what you say, begs the question though WHO is actually on it?:confused:criminals? i doubt if theres many.

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ok Margaret, maybe so, but surely it would be the same if they brought these i.d cards out that they are trying for?

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It might make it easier to catch criminals....but until you have sentences which are deterrents then you will continue to have criminal behaviour repeated when these criminals are released.

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yes i know what your saying about the courts being to soft on the criminals, but will we actually have a choice in the matter for the dna testing?

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i also think it MIGHT make a differance, but surely the crap sentences they give at the moment are better than these people walking free?:confused:

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I will go to prison before I will carry an ID card....these are another infringement of personal privacy....with all the problems of personal information being held on computers.
I have no ID card now...do you think the government finds it hard to extract taxes out of me.....no, of course it doesn't. Ther is already enough information on me, held by government departments.

If my identity was stolen as it could well be(from one of these ID cards) how could I prove who I am? It would be even worse if I was out of the country and could not prove my identity on my return.....I would be stateless.

All these developments worry me greatly.

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Innocent until proven guilty well not in my opinion. There is varying degrees of guilt and thats it. No one is innocent because they must have done something to be questioned in the first place. At one time it was that the prosecution had to prove your guilt now its the other way around and you have to prove beyond reasonable doubt you are innocent. Then chuck in a sentence that has taken into account human rights sympathy from the judge time served on remand etc the sentance is short. Add to that the perks then you have the govenments version of butlins so there is no deterent at all. If sentencing was on the same level of bleating from human rights mobs soft polititions etc life would be life and 5 years would mean 5 years misbehave inside and its extended. Take away all the mod cons and leave nowt other than basics.

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Well, you may have a choice to start with, but how long would it be before the government decided that every baby that is born should have its DNA obtained for future reference? I tell you it is very scary.

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you would prove it the same way as you would prove it now i suppose

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Would be good to get them to build there own jail and save some money in the process.

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this is true but i cant ever see that happening

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you would go to prison? thats a bit extreme? i had one when i lived in spain (residencia) and found it no problem,also had a social security card,thats something you pay when you have a business (like NHS contributions) both were alien to me,but i never had any problem, personally i think the scaremongers are frightening folk.

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The Id card are supposed to contain Biometric information......so suppose someone cloned their biometric details onto my personal information from my ID card.....I would have a pretty tough time getting anyone to believe I was who I say I am...because their biometric details would override any information that i could provide.
Now is that scary...or is that scary?

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i think everyones opinions of certain things will always differ and rightly so too, the world wouldnt be a world if we all agreed on the same things

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Yes, I would go to prison.......and Cashy when you lived in Spain, did your social security card hold any biometric details? I can't imagine that it did.
I have no problem in carrying a passport...it has photo ID in it and other personal details that identify me...it does not, however have any biometric details.

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a fingerprint would counter that i think,thats what the spanish have.

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what I am trying to say is that i do not wish for my DNA or any other biometric details to be held on a government system, because i do not trust the security of such a system.

Re: DNA Yea or Nay?
 

Fortunately in a court of law a person’s guilt has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt before the accused can be convicted of an offence and a sentence passed.

But I can see the day when that is turned around. Indeed it is already happening today with calls for extending the time that the police can hold a suspect without charging them. But that’s OK. It’s only for terrorist suspects. Pardon me but suspect means guilt not established nor innocence.

Today you can be suspected of a crime, taken into custody and have your home rifled whilst the police look for evidence. All on a suspicion. The police don’t even have to specify what that suspicion is. If you have a suspicion about something you have to have something to base your suspicion on.

Re: DNA Yea or Nay?
 

I would happily carry an ID card and have my dna recorded, as far as |I can see this is the way forward; if the authorities can link the dna info to passport info and definite id it would solve a lot of problems. I don't think this is all too "Orwellian" I think it's a positive move forward in the battle against identity theft and many other crimes .
There have been numerous cases solved recently using new DNA technology, some of them over 20 years old.
This is cutting edge, are we going to be rallying against the use of DNA technology if it brings Madeleine's disappearance to a conclusion... No!
It's the only way to solve many of these "witness free" crimes.
Imagine if DNA testing had been around when Marilyn died or when JFK was shot........

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Re: DNA Yea or Nay?
 

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So whatever they have as ID it would have to be updated and reviewed the same way as security software on your computer. There will never be a definative answer to our problems even with DNA being unique to an individual. People wont accept ID cards because they could be "fiddled" yet the same aplies to passports which most rely on.

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ok jambutty for all us dumb women out there....could you please put that in english?

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well said Lindsay

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Re: DNA Yea or Nay?
 

# 48.........:D

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Yes but would your progeny? We have to be careful what we wish for.

If there was DNA evidence the Madeleine case would have been solved by now.

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whats a progeny?

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Re: DNA Yea or Nay?
 

Looking at the press today it seems like there is dna evidence, it's taken so long because the tiny amounts have had to be "grown" to allow testing; they are expecting an arrest in the next 48 hours.

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Progeny is your offspring Flashy .

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Well, Lindsay, you will be at the front of the queue giving your DNA and I would hope to be a million miles away....maybe i won't live long enough to see these development come to fruition.

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Children.

I have to add a few more words because the post police are moaning about "children" being too short.

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Jambutty I hope we are in adjoining cells too! :D

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thanx Lindsay and jb :D

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well if a child of mine grew up to be a terrorist/murderer/ rapist or whatever, then i would want it catching and incarcerating n if a DNA sample at birth does that then that suits me fine.

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people who drive and use a passport
carry id cards all the time so i cant see
an argument against id cards as such
the using of dna is a different subject surely

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I think is a good thing to do.

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After reading all the different opinions I still don't have a problem with my DNA being stored.

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I still think that the DNA information will be used for purposes other than crime detection or I.D.purposes.
It would be too good a target for big business to resist.

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Err...wouldn't they just question/arrest the person who hired the actual vehicle after you, when the crime had been committed? After all we are told we are photographed 300 times per day by CCTV.

It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to work that one out.

I'm in favour of it, if only to help in cases of missing children like Madeline McCann and Ben Needham.

Plus I've nothing to hide.

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But Sherlock Holmes would have questioned the other driver who had an alibi so the innocent guy would be prime suspect.

If you are going to try and pull apart a theory at least take it ALL into account not cherry pick what suits your repsonse.

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Once upon a time a European government gathered in all the details possible of its citizens and stored them on a huge paper database. This was in the days before computers.

Then they started to exterminate certain groups of people or put them to work in slave camps to rid the nation of ‘impure’ citizens. No one outside the country and even the vast majority in the country knew anything about what was happening.

The world found out when the NAZIS were defeated.

Now tell me that a DNA database of every person in the UK is not dangerous.

Could it happen to day? Who knows but we are already being ruled by the Commissionaires, the un-elected Commissionaires, in Brussels. These same people who overrule what MEP’s want when it doesn’t suit their own plan. No one gave Hitler a real chance of becoming the German Chancellor.

We, the working classes, are already being held down by the aristocracy and upper class.

As I keep pointing out, be careful what you wish for today because your desire will affect your children and those who come after more than it will affect you.

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On a very simplistic level it does seem like a good idea. Take everyone's DNA at birth, check if they're prone to any sorts of illnesses, take preventative measures or use it to track down criminals.

However, on a day to day basis there are too many variables about it - like the insurance risks and the risk of getting the wrong person for a crime. The trouble is as well that it won't take long before DNA is said to be 100% perfect way so that no one will have any recourse if they believe that DNA has been wrong. Haven't there already been cases when men have been identified as being a father of a child and they dispute it and it's proven that the DNA testing was inconclusive or the other way around.

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i think its a good idea:D, if ya got nowt to hide ya got nowt to fear;)

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The solving of 64 old crimes is enough for me...

BBC NEWS | UK | Old crimes solved after DNA blitz

and that was four years ago, it's probably a lot more now, of people who wouldn't have been brought to justice.

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yeh they can, police also occasionally tell lies in court or omit things that may harm their case. so what are we saying? stop using fingerprints as evidence they may have been planted. its the best system we got n if that can be improved then good,there as always been miscarriges of justice for various reasons, most thankfully are not. and while any system anywhere has the human element it will always be open to abuse,if we didn't have the justice system we would have Anarchy.:confused:

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What! Is no one going to argue about the above?

Or does it destroy once and for all the “if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear” myth?

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scotland yard have a fingerprint data base for criminals and have had for many years, nobody seems to complain about that. government could go down the road you suggest a bit with that.i think your arguement is fact so cannot be argued, but i also think its scaremongering,if we took on board everything that could hypothetically happen/ happen again,we would never go forward.

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I have nothing to hide either, but that doesn't mean that i am not fearful of this information being used for the wrong reasons and /or for financial gain.

And if DNA were so almighty then 64 cases of solved crime isn't so hot....Not for me, i will take a lot more convincing that this is what the government want to use the DNA for.
They play on the fears people have about rising crime, but yet they do precious little to make sure that true criminals are faced with an adequate deterrent.
The time of the country's police force is taken up in completeing red tape and paperwork, instead of having a visible police presence in the hot spots, and Zero tolerance for crime.

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But they would soon complain if it were put forward that every person would be fingerprinted.

Then you would get the ubiquitous “if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear” argument from those in favour.

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i for one certainly would not object,had to be fingerprinted in spain for my residencia and did so no qualms.

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I have no reason to fear having my fingerprints being taken and/or kept on file!!

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I am always sceptical of medical science. Things that are proven to be 100% often show up a few years later to have flaws.

I believe that someone will declare DNA testing 100% foolproof at some point but the problem is that it won't be! Then the problem will be how do you prove your innocence because you don't have to simply prove that you're innocent but you actually have to prove that the entire system could be flawed.

So from a criminal/police perspective I am very wary of a DNA database.

However, I do think that routine testing of DNA when a child is born could help prevent certain illnesses later in life if it is shown that some people may have a predisposition to them.

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That is Spain, this is the UK. In any case as a visitor to Spain you have to abide by their laws that are already in place or you don’t get in.

There is no such necessity in the UK but it is being proposed that everyone submits a DNA sample to be stored on a national database, with a glib “safeguards will be put in place to prevent unauthorised access”. I wish!

Many years ago the government of the day was looking at the possibility of fingerprinting new born babies but the public outcry then soon put a stop to that idea.

You and others may agree with this Draconian idea but future generations won’t thank you for allowing it to happen.

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That is only a short step away from testing in the womb.

The spectre of Naziism rears its ugly head.

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sorry but you are totally wrong with that statement. most brits that live in spain DO NOT bother to take out residencia and they still live their no problem,so to say "you dont get in" is incorrect.i took it out cos i had a business,but many work in cafes/bars and just do not bother, also i happened to think it was a good system or i may not have bothered with it.

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bowing to your superior knowledge
but didnt many countries know what was going on within germany
prior to the start of the war camps .. extermination etc
and didnt hitler get rid of the people that held the purse strings
albeit within a black economy jews and gypsies held untold wealth
aquired from germany that hitler wanted back.. not a lot to do with dna

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knocking new technology is far more Draconian to me, the "Luddites" did that over 100 years ago. i believe that anything new that has the "Potential" to do good should be given at least a fair trial. anything is open to "Fiddle" always has been,always will be.

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Hate to burst your neo-Nazi conspiracy theory, but most women in the western world already have tests at between 11-20 weeks of their pregnancy, to check for things like Down's syndrome and spina bifida, amongst other things.

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As far as I am aware no one knew outside of Germany until WWII was well under way.

Hitler got rid of non Aryans who, had the technology been available then, would have been identified by DNA. At first the Jews were allowed to leave and those who could did. Many Jews managed to escape the Holocaust because they didn’t look sufficiently like Jews but a DNA test would have been conclusive as it would have been for any race and even mixed races.

It would have been all to do with DNA had testing DNA been known about at the time.

No one is knocking technology cashman just the use that it is being put to.

Using DNA garinda???

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'The various steps taken by the Nazis prior to the "Final Solution" were all taken publicly and were, therefore, reported in the press. Foreign correspondents commented on all the major anti-Jewish actions taken by the Nazis in Germany, Austria, and Czechoslovakia prior to World War II.'

36 Questions About the Holocaust (19-29)


It's also a fact that the clean up in Berlin of all anti-semitic persecution, was reported in the British press in 1936, prior to the Olympic games held that year.

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Yes. A slippery slope for sure.

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Whatever next?

They'll be putting all our names, addresses, ages, and marital status, on a massive list, if we expect to vote.

That'll just be the start.

After that Dr. Mengle, oops...our G.P.'s, will have all our most intimate medical records at their disposal.

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I accept that I didn’t make it clear enough but no one knew about the final solution until well into WWII apart from the Baltic states, Poland etc.

Obviously the much of the western world knew about the persecution of the Jews and other ethnic groups because they were arriving on their doorstep as immigrants.

My point in bringing up the Nazi scenario was to establish what humanity is capable of. A DNA database would just make it easier and probably more efficient. So to get back on topic and not get sidetracked by the Nazis………

The world is overcrowded now so who knows what the situation will be in ten, twenty, thirty years time. More overcrowded I guess. It doesn’t take great leap of imagination to suggest that the world’s ‘Final Solution’ would be to weed out the ‘undesirable’ and dispose of them. A DNA database would enable a government to highlight the ‘undesirable’.

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I watched Panorama last night,now even more convinced that DNA registration is a bit 'dodgy'.One of the talking heads said that DNA could easily be transferred to a place you would never visit,solely by a handshake.There was also evidence of planting DNA to frame a suspect.

Still a long way to go before I'd support this.

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i also watched panorama, and have changed my view completely, there was a guy in norfolk with no previous convictions,real bad "Parkinsons" was arrested for a burgalry in bolton,due to his DNA being found, the guy did not even know where bolton was, couldn,t have done it cos his condition wouldnt have allowed him to climb through the window (how the burgalar entered) he even offered a 2nd DNA sample which was checked at Birmingham (supposed to be the best in world according to panorama) it still came back it was him,people CAN have the same DNA, also mistakes can be made, its also a fact that if you shake hands with someone,they go to a place n commit a crime, YOUR DNA can be left there n you never even been, how the hell do you get out of that? my view now is anyone Convicted of a crime should have DNA placed on record, after that it should be voluntery for the public.