is father christmas dead?
 

was in argos this morning, and a mother n little lad about 2/3yr old came to the counter and ordered some toy or other for the little un and when it arrived said you cant have it now its for christmas, i was godsmacked, surely they dont tell em that young there is no father xmas?:confused: personally i was disgusted n think its robbin em of the magic to do summat like that,has the world moved on that much n i aint noticed?:confused:

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I hope she believes he has a sort memory. It is the ultimate goof up to even hint Santa aint real especially at that age. She needs a slap about the chops for it the silly woman. :mad:

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That is well out of order, although my daughters kids are old enough to know Father Christmas doesn't exist they still don't know what they are getting till they open their presents on Christmas Morning. To take the magic away when a child is so young is wrong IMO. Surely she could have got someone to look after the child while she went to buy the present!!

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Thats so wrong, its such a magical time for children especially the young ones, there's no need to say that to them, not nice at all:(

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thank god fer your thoughts, thought maybe it was me being an "old fashioned git" it made me very sad really.:(

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I cant believe anyone can do that Cashy, what a horrible mother.

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thats exactly were i'm at grego, i seen it n its still hard for me to believe it.:( she was well dressed as well, so was not yer average skanker.

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Just think its very cruel:(

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i think that n i am not a great xmas fan, loved it when kids were little, but aint much time for it now, n it horrified me.:(

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Don't know about anyone else but there are times when presents have been found or seen being bought and I've used the line "It has to go to Father Christmas to deliver". Maybe thats how the mother does these things.

Re: is father christmas dead?
 

Aaah, that's a shame, wonder what she will tell her child at tooth fairy time ?

There does come a time when they are say 8/9 years and getting a little suspicious or discover a present early. Remember having to tell my children that it had to be sent to Father Christmas to be re-delivered .. :D

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It is also a magical time for the parents, putting an excited child to bed knowing that you will be up very late before he/she drifts into a very light sleep and sneaking into the bedroom to place the stocking on the bed without disturbing them, especially when to keep you entertained during the night you have both been hitting the Christmas Booze.

Long may that glorious man Father Christmas remain in the fantasy of all children whether they think themselves good or bad it is one time when they all try very hard to be good just for a few days! ;)

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Ooooooh Noooooo.... You cruel beggars. My whole belief system has just crashed down around me. No Father Christmas!!!!!!

I'm gutted.....:s_cry:;)

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LOL .. not just me then .. you just typed quicker than me !

Father Christmas fantasy is great though .. maybe she has a realistic view to impart to her children and to stop them asking the question of why he doesn't visit other children in the world, however, don't think children care/or are aware of worldly troubles at a very young age.

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Christmas? Humbug! Call me Scrooge if you wish, but I dont think you should ever LIE to your children (or anyone else for that matter)

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What exactly are fairy tales if not fanciful lies? They may not be the truth but they have brought joy to many generations and so has Father Christmas, is it a sin to generate excitement and anticipation in the imagination of a child?

No It isn't, I bet many an author has written books because at an early age he/she was gripped by such stories!
:rolleyes:

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Children have more intelligence than you give them credit for.
They know there is a difference between FACTS spoken, and FICTION written for their amusement.

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You obviously don't know how much intelligence I credit children with!

It is because children have intelligence that we who believe in keeping the age old traditions of story books and fables alive in their minds, what an empty and dreary thing my childhood memories would have been without tales of dragons and goblins and happy ever after, if my parents had rather than spent time telling me these tales, had just said, "there are no such things as Father Christmas, Peter Pan, or Mother Goose.

All through the history of mankind we have had story tellers that weave the tapestry of our imaginations, when we are young we will often believe in these tales. When we become adults we enjoy seeing our own children believing that a prince Charming or brave knight will come to the rescue of those less fortunate than themselves.
If you lack the imagination to stimulate joy in the face of a young child by telling them 'lies' then I feel very sorry for you.
:o

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I do not believe that when you read fairy tales as a child that you believed they were accounts of factual events.
(The Rev Logan/Harry Potter syndrome comes to mind :D )

What I do remember about learning the TRUTH as a child was NOT the disappointment that he was a symbolic mythical fairy tale type character, but disappointment at the fact that my parents LIED to me.

If I had been told the truth when I asked I would have learned that my parents valued honesty.

What I did learn was that people lie to each other all the time, even when the truth doesn't hurt. I could have learned that in a better way than from my parents lies. - who else should a young child trust?

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ok then SCROOGE.:p

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that's really sad... Christmas is never the same when you dont believe in Father Christmas.... which I why I still do: I am good all year, and I hang my stocking up.... and wish on a star :-) he must be too busy to get to my house these days... but I do understand now I am over 21 ( Just ) I wish

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The truth wouldn't hurt if you had never been told the lie in the first place.

I still enjoy feasting, drinking and family togetherness - it is the hype that people add to it that spoils it for me.

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kids love the "fantasy world" make believe and so on, or at least i did, n so did mine.

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So did I - but kids can tell the difference - there is never an excuse for lies - tell them he is a fairytale type person from the start - please - the truth wont hurt - your lies, when discovered, will

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In my case you are so so so wrong margaret. I brought up mine to believe in the magic of father christmas, tooth fairy etc... when they were older and discovered the truth they still said they were glad I did it as it created the magic that is being a child

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Exactly GHR.. Margaret think your views are a little far-fetched this time. Can't ever remember my children ever throwing this back in my face "Well, you LIED about Father Christmas, so why should I believe you now" ..:D

Think was probably a relief, so now they knew who to really pester for their presents at Christmas .. :eek:

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well i or me brother n sis were never hurt when we discovered the truth, n i'm sure my kids would have said if they were, think yer way offbeam with this margaret.

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Perhaps I have the George Washington Syndrome :D
It is just one of the principles that determine how I live my life -
I NEVER LIE

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I've heard some whoppers in my time but that one always takes the biscuit! ;)

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There is a time and a place, I have brought my kids up to be honest and that lies only hurt...think this is one time where a lie is the right thing...In the grand scheme of things I don't really see it as a true lie

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My principles have got me into bother at times.
You amuse me Less (believe it or not as you wish :D )

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Whose GHR???? :rolleyes:

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I believe you and I would have believed you in the other statement if you had said, "I try never to lie".

But we are all human beans and it's in all of our natures to tell porkies, (even yours!). :)

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I succeed - every lie 'reduces the value of your soul'.

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Anyone got change of a 5p coin? I want to buy my soul back! :(

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When my friends ask "Does my bum look big in this?" they know they will get an honest answer. :D

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mine also, but to me theres a world of differance between little kids living a happy fairy tale life, than older kids n grown-ups in the real world,just imagine a young kid starting school n at xmas telling the rest of the class what yer saying, the grief the kid n his parents would get, is worth ruining the fantasy? sorry no way for me.:confused:

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Older children tell younger children all the time that Father Christmas isnt real and the young kids choose to believe their parents because they trust their parents.

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show me a person that has been scarred for life for finding out that father christmas is real and I will change my opinion margaret, think you are more likely to find more who have such wonderful childhood memories instead

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Whoops looks like I honoured you with a 'Great' for Great Harwood Red .. sos... :D

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ha ha ha at least you meant great and not gigantic or geeky....although you could have meant gorgeous :D

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I am not saying scarred for life - it just makes them think that lies are readily acceptable in society (which sadly they are)

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disagree completely with that, i think it shows to the kids that their parents care enough to make things as magical as possible for them and to give them wonderful memories for the rest of their lives..

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Well, don't wish to tell lies do I ! ... :D:D

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I know, cos you would never ever tell lies now would you kate :D

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not really,when they are older n a bit more mature, thats when they learn the differance. or at least my family did.

Re: is father christmas dead?
 

This has been dicussed on another forum
Why do parents lie to their children about father Christmas/Easter bunny etc, etc? - Yahoo! Answers

Re: is father christmas dead?
 

Well it looks like a lot of you did not come to an accyweb christmas meet:D

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:unsure8: WHAT !!! Father Christmas isn't real ?? .......... Next you'll be saying neither is the tooth fairy :sad8: ....


........ DAMN !! :surprise:

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Blimey look who the cats dragged in :p

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I can see Margaret's point but I've always done the Father Christmas thing with my kids and will be quite sad when they are too old to believe it. There's nothing like the magic and excitement it creates for a small child. Fair play to those that don't pretend there is a Father Christmas though, that's their choice.

Re: is father christmas dead?
 

Of course it is Lilly, just as bringing them up in any sort of religion, etc., however, it's the accusation that we may be doing our children long term damage by this wonderful fantasy that is the question here.

OK .. on the flip side, Cashman thought is was a disgrace of this woman to tell the child the truth, however, in the world we live here in the U.K. just such a shame not to let them into this magic.

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Eeew yes, however, I know where she has been .. Land of Never Never, fighting pirates, killing crocodiles and teaching children to fly .. shame on you Tinks ;):D

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Don't worry tinks,

Re: is father christmas dead?
 

No. I don't think we're damaging them by letting them believe in Father Christmas. Millions of people have turned out to be perfectly well adjusted adults despite being allowed to believe in a fantasy figure when they were younger.

If people don't want to let their children believe in Father Christmas then that's up to them but I do wish they would tell their children, especially when they're very young, not to mouth off and spoil it for the others.

Having said that, has anybody else had the Father Christmas questions that we never had to ask our parents flung at them? Questions that have sprung up in recent years and are getting harder and harder to field. Examples of the questions I've been asked are

1) How does Father Christmas get in? (As we live in a new-ish build with no chimney)

2) Why doesn't the burglar alarm go off when Father Christmas comes in?

3) How does he know the number to turn the burglar alarm off?

4) What does Father Christmas do for the rest of the year? (Kids used to be told that he spent the rest of the year making the toys, which was fine when the gifts were toy soldiers and spinning tops but how do you pretend that Father Christmas has made this DS or this Wii ?)

There wouldn't have been these questions years ago. Sign of the times I suppose.

Despite all this though, they've never come straight out and said ' Is he real?' Not yet. I'll be honest about it when they're older. I won't let them go to Secondary school still believing in Father Christmas!:D

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hope that helps lily :D

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Modern day answers to age old questions, I like them;)

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Totally agree, father xmas has never been alive, why lie?, life can still be magical without lying.

Re: is father christmas dead?
 

Reece is 11 and still believes (ish) that there is a father christmas, he now knows that i buy the presents and send them off to him ( but i didnt always) and if he isnt good (because santa is watching) he wont get anything, this has only come about over the last year or so, i've NEVER told him there isnt a santa, he just see's it in a more grown up way now, he's only just realised that the tooth fairy stops coming when your 11 too :D

Re: is father christmas dead?
 

Me being the Google Granny here :) I have been reading up the subject of lying and this led me to the works of Immanuel Kant - an eminent philosopher who agrees with me (or more humbly -I with him) that it is never justifiable.


"The philosopher Immanuel Kant said that lying was always morally wrong. He argued that all persons are born with an "intrinsic worth" that he called human dignity. This dignity derives from the fact that humans are uniquely rational agents, capable of freely making their own decisions, setting their own goals, and guiding their conduct by reason. To be human, said Kant, is to have the rational power of free choice; to be ethical, he continued, is to respect that power in oneself and others.
Lies are morally wrong, then, for two reasons. First, lying corrupts the most important quality of my being human: my ability to make free, rational choices. Each lie I tell contradicts the part of me that gives me moral worth. Second, my lies rob others of their freedom to choose rationally. When my lie leads people to decide other than they would had they known the truth, I have harmed their human dignity and autonomy. Kant believed that to value ourselves and others as ends instead of means, we have perfect duties (i.e., no exceptions) to avoid damaging, interfering with, or misusing the ability to make free decisions; in other words - no lying."

Re: is father christmas dead?
 

what a surname, sounds like something a southerner would say :D;)

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When my youngsters were about 7 the teacher told them father Christmas didn't exist, she didn't believe in kids being brought up in a make believe world. Boy was there a lot of parents at school next day......

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A german actually - and a dead jewish german at that :D
(sick joke)- most of his kind are

Immanuel Kant -- Metaphysics [Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]

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From somebody who calls himself Gandalf I can see some irony in that reply :)

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Why so Dave? - Being honest doesnt destroy the enjoyment of fantasy escapism in FICTIONAL literature

fiction does not equal lies - though not everybody can tell the difference and call 'lies' fiction

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dont set much store with " German"Philosophers:D not to mention the war as sybil said in fawlty towers:rofl38:

Re: is father christmas dead?
 

Just texted 25 year old son to enquire if he had ever been affected by my lies about Father Christmas. Did mention that sometimes he lies awake at night crying about it .. :rolleyes:

Daughter then rings, posed similar question .. comment was that the only thing she resented me for was making her sit on fat, smelly old fellas knees in a red coat, and one of them once touched her knee .. whoops :eek:

Sure this Kant guy is spelling his name with the correct vowel .. :p

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When you dont believe in father christmas some of the magic that is christmas goes out of it.

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And you believed them? :rolleyes:

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Well, not son's, but maybe something in daughter's remark .. how do we know what is a little scarey to children always ?

A friend at work has been with her lovely daughter to Lapland at Christmas for the past three years, she is going again this year taking children who have never been. The picture she brings back with her is amazing of their bright little faces, being driven in sledges in the snow, introduced to the 'real' Father Christmas, stroking the reindeers and visiting the elves workshop. Ok, just adding to the 'lie' I suppose (and commercialism), but boy, wouldn't I just wish to go with them.

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Well, without getting into the philosophy thing......I do not think children are harmed by the myth of Father Christmas....and when they are old enough to understand the symbolic meaning...(that it is better to give than to receive) then Father Christmas can be explained to them in a way shows it is a myth.

My parents never had any money and we didn't get much in the way of presents....and often what we did receive was home made(a wooden fort - or a garage for the boys.....a puppet theatre for me) what it taught me was that we give gifts to the special people in our lives......and that Father Christmas is the deliverer of the gifts.
This didn't harm me in any way......as for telling lies.....well if we all told the absolute truth all the time then I believe life would be exceedingly cruel.
I have told untruths/fibs/lies whatever you want to call them....and these occasions have been times when the truth would have been too painful to countenance......I called it being tactful. And when the time comes I will square up to the greater being and offer my reasons. I hope the greater being will be merciful.

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"Santa Claus is More About Parents than Children:
Parental investment in Santa Claus is far larger than anything kids do, suggesting that parents’ defense of the Santa Claus myth is more about what they want than about what kids want. Their own memories about enjoying Santa may be heavily influenced by cultural assumptions about what they should have experienced. Is it not possible that kids would find at least as much pleasure in knowing that parents are responsible for Christmas, not a supernatural stranger?"


extract from -
Santa Claus: Should Parents Perpetuate the Santa Claus Myth?

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very well put Margaret:)

Re: is father christmas dead?
 

Margaret until now I always thought of you as a reasonable person, we can all shoot off to the web and find examples that suit our purpose, that doesn't make what we are quoting right.
Children are children ask anyone that has performed in a pantomime in front of them and you will be told the children love the fantasy!

I find it strange that the only person so far to back you up shows themselves as:-

Re: is father christmas dead?
 

I find it offensive that you chose to expand and use bold font for the name of another forum member - indicating your contempt
If this was not your intention, please say so

PS "you amuse me" does not neccessarily = "I like you"

Re: is father christmas dead?
 

I am sure that this is, to a great extent true.
Most parents want to provide something better for their own children than their parents provided for them......or at least on a par with.
Even though we were poor I enjoyed the Christmas experience......OK, it wasn't so commercial way back then....and I remember wanting to provide my own child with the Christmas experience........and what is wrong with that?
Margaret, you are entitled to your own opinion (as is everyone else who uses this forum), but it isn't one that I would subscribe to.
Let children enjoy their childhood......it doesn't have to be viewed from such an adult and serious perspective.

Re: is father christmas dead?
 

Slow down girl, your making the mistake of getting personal, stick to your guns if you must but don't attempt to make yourself less than you already have!

I used bold and size seven font to emphasise the irony of the whole argument, so far you and a fantasy figure have shown disdain for everyone else, please feel free to have your ideas but don't spoil it for the rest of us, kids are kids and should be given the adventure of imagination.
:mad:

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Thats disgusting, I would've been round at the school too.

I completely disagree with you Margaret, when I found out that Father Christmas didn't exist (thanks Lettie:D) it didn't even enter my head that I'd been lied to by my parents I was just pleased that I were still getting presents. I kind of knew anyway cause we used to find them every year:)

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What a load of utter rubbish, gandalfthewhite is a silly name I chose for this forum, that's all it is, an alias, father xmas totally different, there is no irony.

Re: is father christmas dead?
 

I think I have always been 'civilised' in this thread and have presented the alternative argument in a reasonable way.

I haven't said 'I don't like you' because I don't know and I never tell lies :D

I think 'the jury is now out' - either side of this argument is not likely to change our individual entrenched opinions
Thanks for the mental excercise and the excuse for in depth Googling:)

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Father Christmas is something as a child ,I do not think that one of you argue as you will, did not look forward to when it was 'your time'. Please keep the illusion going, as the four seasons come and go so do 'our' religious festivals, an rightly so we should perpetuate them. I am now an 'old fogey, but I set targets in life, each one is my next goal in life. Our children should be encouraged to do the same, instead of wishing our lives away let them have something to look forward to. After all is said and done, they are growing up far to quickly these days.

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But you are an "old fashioned git". :D:D:D

It's a pity that being old fashioned is out of fashion.

Re: is father christmas dead?
 

Where have I said you weren't civilised? Wrong, in fact completely wrong but NEVER uncivilised!

I haven't said "I don't like you because well, to be honest most of the time I do because you put forward many sensible thought's today though, you are wrong, (and it gives me no pleasure to tell you this),
(it's in red 'cos I want it to be not as some sort of insult).

let me know if you would like pointing to an on line Dictionary then you can look up irony?
:rofl38:

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Less - we will agree to differ (and thanks for the bits that were complimentary) :D

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Now come on Margaret, we can't agree to differ yet, we've only got one mod' watching over us, we need to carry on until there are at least three! :rolleyes:

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got to agree with you ianto life is too short for kids & "fairytails" & imagination are dissapearing oh so fast, last year someone (i think it was ksh) put a thread on about nasa, & the tracking of father christmas around the world .........i will say & admit i did & will do this year followed the trail of father christmas .......................i found it quite interesting, lighten up people its only christmas magic after all.

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IM with lettie ..WHAT NO SANTA ??? NOOOOOOOOOOOOWAYYYYYY!!!!!!
dont believe you . of course there is , ive seen him .. lol
some mothers dont deserve the name .....cruel ..

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We've always, in our family, played the Santa Claus thing down to an extent. Most of their presents were not given anonymously and the few that were got less and less as the child got older. The children enjoyed playing along with the Santa idea, humouring the parents a lot of the time, but it was never a very big deal once they got past babyhood. Children aren't as naive as parents sometimes like to think.

What I do think is wrong is to show a child something you've bought for him then say he can't have it yet. That's like putting a hot dinner under the nose of a hungry child then taking it away again, it's thoughtless and callous.

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Cheers, Harwood Red. I shalll use those.:)

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[quote=grego;481611]Thats disgusting, I would've been round at the school too.

Me too, Grego.:(

It's the parents' decision what/when to tell the children about Father Christmas, not the teachers'. She had no right to do that.

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I think today a lot of parents...tell far worse lies to their kids ! ! !

Keep Santa Alive is what I say:

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To say that a mother is horrible for saying that to a child its a bit over the top.
Although they say that a kid knows more than we know and they are alert to everything we do or say i dont think that kid will remember that the mother said that.
My son is 2 and although he knows that he gets presents on his bday he dont realise why and for them its just another day but with the fact that they open xmas or bday presents, they dont know whats goin on yet.
Just an opinion

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santas still alive he just shops in argos:D

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Tracking Santa on Christmas Eve With Norad's Santa Tracker

Thats the history behind tracking father christmas.

NORAD Tracks Santa 2006

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Wow... This thread has exploded, which is what tends to happen when I go to work.... (mental note to self.....must stop working).:)

If telling children about Father Christmas is a lie, then I have a big problem and need to join a counselling group.

"Hello, my name is Lettie and I'm a pathological liar." :D

"My niece and nephew believe in Father Christmas and I not only let them, but tell them magical things about him and watch their little faces glow with happiness and fascination."

"My niece and nephew both think that there are magic trees in the parks which grow jelly babies for them if they are good. They have spent many a happy hour looking for the jelly babies and are rewarded with jelly babies from the magic tree at the end of our days out."

"I am so ashamed of myself, I have also lied at work but call it tact."

eg, "Your father is stable, this means he is at death's door but we think he'll rally and don't want to worry you unless he becomes critical."

"You could do to lose a couple of pounds, this really means about 4 stone but I don't want to hurt your feelings."

"I think you will be fit to work now, this means stop malingering and get a bloody job."

For all of these lies, and many, many, more........ I sincerely apologise and acknowledge the error of my ways. ;)

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lettie you BAD Buggar.:rofl38::rofl38::rofl38::rofl38:

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How do you know Father Christmas has never lived? He is certainly no lie, nobody could be remembered since time immemorial and not only have lived but did something worth remembering him for. As for lying to children , Father Christmas like the Tooth Fairy were there to ease the pain of unpleasant things and times, like pain and inclement weather, so lighten up and stow that PC unform before the stuffed shirt chokes you.:p:p:p

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I agree with that!!

And I have to say that, all the churches are liars too then!! I mean have you seen GOD?? no didn't think so!! so are they all bloody liars too??

It all comes down to believing in something we want to believe in, and then we help to make what we felt as children, magical for our own children. If my children hate me and turn their backs on me forever, when they find out about santa, then I will wear my knickers for 3 month, then eat them :D:D

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yah promised me them slinks:D

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You can have the other pair I have :D:D:D