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-   -   Tories "work for benifits" scheme (https://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f69/tories-work-for-benifits-scheme-36004.html)

jambutty 08-01-2008 20:09
Re: Tories "work for benifits" scheme
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth (Post 514373)
What's not enough to live on? Without sounding like a heartless ass, £5.52 an hour is certainly above poverty wages. How long does said person that "can't find a job" given to look while being supported by taxpayer money that could be spent on the NHS or better Schools or roads? 2 months? 6 months? 4 years? Taking a job while continuing to look is always an option. Sliding scale top up benefits (giving people a benefit that supplements their earned income) is certainly better than dishing out the dole.

People need to be trained in legitimate skills. Government needs to help out there. Creating skilled jobs creates the gap between positions that seem to be filled by "foreigners" who are willing to work hard for less money. Welcome to the Global economy. If someone goes through school and comes out with no real education, or any marketable skills, then he is going to be competing against an eastern European that is over the moon making minimum wage. That's what you get for joining the EU. Its great for business, but sucks if you are on the bottom end of the food chain.

Encouraging people to create a little self worth by getting them out into the workplace. Personally, I think encouraging young people to start their own business would be a great thing. I am self-employed and I have never worked for anyone else. Its been a lot of hard graft. I have become successful, eventually, but there have been a lot of bumps along the way. I don't buy that someone "can't find a job".
Compared to a pensioner £5.52 per hour is above the poverty line but what about a family man with a wife and two kids?

I read recently that there are several thousand newly qualified doctors who cannot get a position so presumably they will have to sign on the dole. So what job would you allocate them?

What do you do with a 54 years old engineer/electrician/plumber/accountant etc.?

All these ‘solutions’ are coming from people in employment and of course they know it all. “I got off my backside and made something of myself, why don’t you?” is a phrase that is often bandied about by the self employed. Well not everyone can and has the ability to become self employed. But then were would the workers come from if everyone was self employed? In any case of all the thousands of new self employed some half end up bankrupt within six months. Yes there is practical help out there when starting your own business but the help is not free and just leeches away the lifeblood of the business.

You get a different perspective in the dole queue and you do the best that you can for yourself and your family.

Bonnyboy 08-01-2008 20:44
Re: Tories "work for benifits" scheme
 
I’m a carer, I care for my partner. I have been on the lookout for a part-time job for several reasons. Extra income would be nice to say the least and the monotony ( when you have been used to working all your life ) can be bloody grim.

Try as I can to find a job with “ routine” hours, there just seems to be none around. Everyone needs flexibility and for you to be able to cover the shifts of others at the drop of a hat. That is something which my homelife just cannot allow I need to be able to build a routine.

Whilst I don’t envisage my circumstances will change by this proposed policy, benefit wise, I can see the “knock on” effect whereby other forms of State Benefit will be re-worked. So maybe it will effect me in that manner.

I can see how, having people on JSA doing jobs within the community will effect the likes of me though. It will make it even harder for me, and the likes, to find some form of employment. :(

lancsdave 08-01-2008 20:52
Re: Tories "work for benifits" scheme
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambutty (Post 514485)
Compared to a pensioner £5.52 per hour is above the poverty line but what about a family man with a wife and two kids?
They would get top up benefits, so £5.52 is the base rate really. Without checking up up I would think they would also get housing benefit ( if they rent ) and council tax relief.

garinda 08-01-2008 23:04
Re: Tories "work for benifits" scheme
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambutty (Post 514349)
OK! Clever clogs!
The member's name is apparently Gareth, not Clever clogs.

Don't you usually throw your geriatric dummy out of your high-chair, when someone doesn't use your exact usermame, Jim Bitty?

harwood red 08-01-2008 23:08
Re: Tories "work for benifits" scheme
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambutty (Post 514485)
Compared to a pensioner £5.52 per hour is above the poverty line but what about a family man with a wife and two kids?

I read recently that there are several thousand newly qualified doctors who cannot get a position so presumably they will have to sign on the dole. So what job would you allocate them?

What do you do with a 54 years old engineer/electrician/plumber/accountant etc.?

All these ‘solutions’ are coming from people in employment and of course they know it all. “I got off my backside and made something of myself, why don’t you?” is a phrase that is often bandied about by the self employed. Well not everyone can and has the ability to become self employed. But then were would the workers come from if everyone was self employed? In any case of all the thousands of new self employed some half end up bankrupt within six months. Yes there is practical help out there when starting your own business but the help is not free and just leeches away the lifeblood of the business.

You get a different perspective in the dole queue and you do the best that you can for yourself and your family.
The family man as shillelagh mentioned if only on £5.52 ph would be entitled to working and children tax credits.

Also goes for single people on min wage would also be entitled to working tax credits as a top up and may still get some housing benefit and council tax benefit

steeljack 08-01-2008 23:10
Re: Tories "work for benifits" scheme
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 514595)
The member's name is apparently Gareth, not Clever clogs.

Don't you usually throw your geriatric dummy out of your high-chair, when someone doesn't use your exact usermame, Jim Bitty?
Brava , time someone taught the old 'escaped gas bubble' some manners :D :D though I do think its a bit like casting pearls before swine

garinda 08-01-2008 23:18
Re: Tories "work for benifits" scheme
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steeljack (Post 514600)
Brava , time someone taught the old 'escaped gas bubble' some manners :D :D though I do think its a bit like casting pearls before swine
Don't be cruel.

Personally I love the idiot, but hate their idiotcy...or at least blame their medication.

Neil 09-01-2008 08:27
Re: Tories "work for benifits" scheme
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambutty (Post 514485)
What do you do with a 54 years old engineer/electrician/plumber/accountant etc.?
You wait until they reach 70 then give them one of these T shirts


http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/a...1&d=1199870779

blazey 09-01-2008 10:25
Re: Tories "work for benifits" scheme
 
I've got a friend on Incapacity benefit who would love to work, but he gets worn out so easily he'd need to take constant breaks and it wouldn't do him any good, so he's having to wait on an NHS hospital list so he can have the final op that will hopefully go well and he'll be able to work again soon.

Must be hard being young and being unable to work though when you really want to. What else can you do during the day?

blazey 09-01-2008 10:30
Re: Tories "work for benifits" scheme
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambutty (Post 514485)
Compared to a pensioner £5.52 per hour is above the poverty line but what about a family man with a wife and two kids?

I read recently that there are several thousand newly qualified doctors who cannot get a position so presumably they will have to sign on the dole. So what job would you allocate them?

What do you do with a 54 years old engineer/electrician/plumber/accountant etc.?

All these ‘solutions’ are coming from people in employment and of course they know it all. “I got off my backside and made something of myself, why don’t you?” is a phrase that is often bandied about by the self employed. Well not everyone can and has the ability to become self employed. But then were would the workers come from if everyone was self employed? In any case of all the thousands of new self employed some half end up bankrupt within six months. Yes there is practical help out there when starting your own business but the help is not free and just leeches away the lifeblood of the business.

You get a different perspective in the dole queue and you do the best that you can for yourself and your family.
Women balance families and careers now aswell, there isn't any reason why a mother cant also get a job in this day and age, particularly with many companies having flexi-hour schemes now for working mothers, and there is increased maternity leave so they can wait til a better age to put their children into childcare. Many mothers wouldn't like this at a young age but they could have baby in childcare for 2hrs a day and get a cleaning job that'd bring at least £50 a week in to cover food or the gas and electric. No need for the man to be the only income anyway.

lancsdave 09-01-2008 10:39
Re: Tories "work for benifits" scheme
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazey (Post 514644)
they could have baby in childcare for 2hrs a day and get a cleaning job that'd bring at least £50 a week in to cover food or the gas and electric.
How much is £50 per week minus 2 hrs a day childcare worth ?

blazey 09-01-2008 10:49
Re: Tories "work for benifits" scheme
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lancsdave (Post 514648)
How much is £50 per week minus 2 hrs a day childcare worth ?
Well depends on the age of the child, from 3 yrs of age you get so many hours paid for. Until then I'm sure many womens family would be willing to help out, doting grannies and stuff?

There are ways for women to have their jobs and their babies, not every woman stays at home til her child is 3 yrs of age.

Gareth 09-01-2008 12:43
Re: Tories "work for benifits" scheme
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambutty (Post 514485)
Compared to a pensioner £5.52 per hour is above the poverty line but what about a family man with a wife and two kids?

I read recently that there are several thousand newly qualified doctors who cannot get a position so presumably they will have to sign on the dole. So what job would you allocate them?

What do you do with a 54 years old engineer/electrician/plumber/accountant etc.?

All these ‘solutions’ are coming from people in employment and of course they know it all. “I got off my backside and made something of myself, why don’t you?” is a phrase that is often bandied about by the self employed. Well not everyone can and has the ability to become self employed. But then were would the workers come from if everyone was self employed? In any case of all the thousands of new self employed some half end up bankrupt within six months. Yes there is practical help out there when starting your own business but the help is not free and just leeches away the lifeblood of the business.

You get a different perspective in the dole queue and you do the best that you can for yourself and your family.
Where to start. I think other people answered my question about your family man. Personally, and I am sure I am going to hear it, but if you are old enough to have a wife and 2 kids, then you should have gained enough marketable skills to make more than minimum wage. If you have made the choice to bring children into the world, then you should have given at least lip service to what they cost to raise. Unfortunately, the sad reality of life is that unless you have a high paying job, wifey now needs to contribute to the family income to survive. That's the effect of women coming into the workforce since the second world war. If you want the trappings of comfort - nice car, nice house, you need two incomes, or at least one and a half.

Back to your self-employment thing. If everyone was self employed, the workers would be self employed companies. But that's unrealistic. If you had NO new self employed people, then who would hire the workers? There has to be some balance, but more businesses means more jobs to choose from.

Your doctors question is a result of poor planning by government. One of the benefits of the NHS is the ability to plan. We should only be creating enough doctors to fill the projected positions available in the NHS. Its never going to be perfect, but you shouldnt be creating thousands more skilled persons than needed. I was back in Lancashire over the Christmas break attending the wedding of two student doctors. They told me that they are having to train extra doctors in order to fill the projected slots of women doctors taking family leave in their careers. Our doctors might not get immediate employment, but it should be forthcoming in short order.

And what would I allocate them as a benefit job? How about visiting homebound pensioners to check to see if they are warm and healthy? I am sure there are plenty of people like yourself who would love a friendly face who could spend some time with them.

54 Year old engineer, electrician, plumber, accountant? I am surprised that a plumber and electrician aren't immediately self employable? Growth in compensation isn't something that should naturally come with age, it should come with growth in value. This comes with experience and knowledge. If you have spent your career not gaining more experience, or you still suck at what you do, you don't deserve more money, and that's no-one's fault other than your own.

I would take some of those unemployed accountants and have them help start-up businesses. People generally love what they do being self employed. They don't love bookkeeping, sales generation and all the other things that are vitally important to running a business. People typically don't fail in business because they aren't good at what they do, they aren't good at the core tasks of running a business. And the government should pay them to do it as it will create all kinds of jobs and tax revenues. And what REALLY drains the lifeblood of business, is having to pay more tax to fund lazy capable people sitting on the dole for their life.

Gareth 09-01-2008 12:53
Re: Tories "work for benifits" scheme
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 514395)
Gareth, doing something for the community may be taking paid work away from someone else. Any work that is done for the dole should either lead to a 'REAL' job........or be a real job....not just something that has been conjured up to give idle hands something to do.......I can see that working for dole, is in essence, 'slave labour' because people are not being paid their true worth.Dole should be a safety net with an imposed time limit....if you don't find work in 6 months then you are on your own.
It is just that some people se themselves expectations that are too high.....you'll hear them say 'I wouldn't get out of bed for that kind of wage' or 'I can get more on the dole'....!
You kind of contradict yourself by saying that you don't want paid work taking someone's job, but if dole work were a 'REAL' job thats exactly what you would create. By creating community service jobs, you increase the quality of life for many, home visiting, after school tutoring, stuff that the government, and poorer people would never really pay for, but would serve a purpose. The dole jobs shouldn't be something that you particularly enjoy, as you want people motivated to do something else. I think legitimate training schemes and apprenticeships (even for older people) should be available as part of getting your dole.

I agree with the time limited safety net. I would give people 2 months for free to give them time to seriously find a job, and when they start to becoming part of the chronically unemployed, then they need to work at least some part of the week for their cheque.

And for those who have an inflated value of themselves - if you don't want to get out of bed for that kind of wage - you better find a way to feed yourself because I wouldn't be giving you your dole after 2 months.

davo69 09-01-2008 12:56
Re: Tories "work for benifits" scheme
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth (Post 514733)
Where to start. I think other people answered my question about your family man. Personally, and I am sure I am going to hear it, but if you are old enough to have a wife and 2 kids, then you should have gained enough marketable skills to make more than minimum wage. If you have made the choice to bring children into the world, then you should have given at least lip service to what they cost to raise. Unfortunately, the sad reality of life is that unless you have a high paying job, wifey now needs to contribute to the family income to survive. That's the effect of women coming into the workforce since the second world war. If you want the trappings of comfort - nice car, nice house, you need two incomes, or at least one and a half.

Back to your self-employment thing. If everyone was self employed, the workers would be self employed companies. But that's unrealistic. If you had NO new self employed people, then who would hire the workers? There has to be some balance, but more businesses means more jobs to choose from.

Your doctors question is a result of poor planning by government. One of the benefits of the NHS is the ability to plan. We should only be creating enough doctors to fill the projected positions available in the NHS. Its never going to be perfect, but you shouldnt be creating thousands more skilled persons than needed. I was back in Lancashire over the Christmas break attending the wedding of two student doctors. They told me that they are having to train extra doctors in order to fill the projected slots of women doctors taking family leave in their careers. Our doctors might not get immediate employment, but it should be forthcoming in short order.

And what would I allocate them as a benefit job? How about visiting homebound pensioners to check to see if they are warm and healthy? I am sure there are plenty of people like yourself who would love a friendly face who could spend some time with them.

54 Year old engineer, electrician, plumber, accountant? I am surprised that a plumber and electrician aren't immediately self employable? Growth in compensation isn't something that should naturally come with age, it should come with growth in value. This comes with experience and knowledge. If you have spent your career not gaining more experience, or you still suck at what you do, you don't deserve more money, and that's no-one's fault other than your own.

I would take some of those unemployed accountants and have them help start-up businesses. People generally love what they do being self employed. They don't love bookkeeping, sales generation and all the other things that are vitally important to running a business. People typically don't fail in business because they aren't good at what they do, they aren't good at the core tasks of running a business. And the government should pay them to do it as it will create all kinds of jobs and tax revenues. And what REALLY drains the lifeblood of business, is having to pay more tax to fund lazy capable people sitting on the dole for their life.
what a well put together post cant agree with you more well put and said.......did i just agree with you lol


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