Re: Oswaldtwistle Civic Theatre
 

Gayle don't knock yer salary as being large, anyone who thinks that is naive to use a kind word.;)

Re: Oswaldtwistle Civic Theatre
 

I'm so honoured that you're going to respond to my statement eventually. I was beginning to get the feeling that you'd abandoned us. And by 'us' I mean 'me' in the same way that you use the word 'us'.

You're actually starting to get offensive. Why, and on what basis, do you believe that I have anything in common with Nigel Rix?

If you honestly believe that I am the evil wicked person that you seem to think I am and if you honestly believe that I am diddling tax payers out of their hard earned cash - then come right out and say it although I'd be interested to know what evidence you think you have.

I have answered all your questions honestly. Do you have any more questions?

Re: Oswaldtwistle Civic Theatre
 

Well now here we are, there's absolutely no reason to be so aggresively defensive Gayle dear. I was merely attempting to establish the basis for a rational discussion. As I am sure you are aware I have been absent from the site for quite some time, due to pressures of work, and so I need to get my bearings, so to speak, re the shifting palette of local alliances. I am sure you understand and will humour me.

Now then, first things first, Thank you Gayle dear, for your very kind invitation to attend your next public meeting and also for the suggestion that I might like to consider sitting on your board. It really is very sweet of you to think of me, but I am afraid I shall have to decline on this occaision. I am sure all those frightfully energetic young people you will be mixing with would not really welcome an old fogey like me pouring the cold water of reality on their lovely creative ambitions. After all, as I think I have mentioned before, my degree specialism is in Fine Art, not one of those ever so trendy new media and communications jobbies that are currently so popular. I overheard talk on the market that even Accrington and Rosendale are dishing them out now...whatever next? I know you are going to be dreadfully upset and crushed by this news, but really, once you have dried your tears and had a jolly good blow, you will realise it is probably for the best. Without wishing to blow my own trumpet here, I think I would be far more valuable as a sort of agony aunt. You know, the sort of thing old Marge Proops, bless her, used to get up to. I always find that my analysis can be much more dispassionate and clinical when performed at a distance.

Now, I was intending to do a "fisk" as I think it is called, of your splendid post concerning your new project at the civic theatre. but that could well take all night and I don't know about you dear but I am not getting any younger and time is precious, so I will try and keep this as brief and to the point as I can.

As I think I have mentioned before I cannot fault your enthusiasm dear, it does you credit, indeed you must be one of the most exhaustingly enthusiastic people at HBC, which is not a bad thing. Let's face it dear, most of them could do with either putting out to grass or having a box of Standard fireworks shoved where the sun will never shine! (please excuse the gratuitously offensive comments, I'm getting in practice for when I achieve my pension book, Most pensioners I know are content to grow old disgracefully - I intend to be spectacular and an example to all who follow!) Where was I? Oh, yes, 'enthusiasm'. A commodity to be admired and expected, certainly, but it can also be a two edged sword and lead some to putting the cart before the horse, as it were. You have to realise that you are working in a town and a borough that has never paid anything but the most insincere and insipid lip service to the notion and benefits of the Arts. I know for a fact that several former Town Clerks would happily have sold Haworth Art Gallery and its collections off to the highest bidder without batting an eye if they had thought they could have gotten away with it. But they couldn't, and the gallery has been left short of funds, direction and interest since the outbreak of World War II. For the truth of this statement you might ask Councillor Britcliffe when was the last time that the Gallery had an aquisitions fund and what it amounted to; if you think you can bear the shock! You might also bear in mind that it was the same Britcliffe who withdrew from Mid Pennine and set his face against the Panopticon project.

You seem to have this wonderfully rosy idea that a couple of video cameras and a photo exhibition will stem the tide of creative talent leaving the borough for pastures more condusive. In a borough that knows little of the Arts, and cares even less, that is a pretty forlorn hope. Even on an unlimited budget it would be an uphill struggle and would probably take more than one lifetime to accomplish. You, alas, are granted neither. I do not want to sound unduly negative here dear, but facts must be faced. For the majority of the population of Hyndburn The Arts are either what a load of toffee nosed gits up in London do or it is something that scruffy students get up to. As long as they have their flat pack furniture from Ikea, the latest CD from whatever Karaoke show the telly is pumping out at the moment and a fridge full of WKD most of them are blisfully happy. Attempting to preach to them about the value of aesthetics or that there might be an alternative way of communicating their emotions that does not involve pop music, loads of make up, clothes that barely satisfy the requirements of decency and puking most of the evening's consumption into the gutter at the end of the night, is going to be a hard call. I do not envy you, not one bit!

You made much in your post about local groups being very much in favour of the project. to be honest dear if you said you were going to lead a procession up and down Union Street with an orange on a stick you would probably get much the same response, and as for encouragement from the Police! Let me confide to you a terrible secret: the most that the police know about art is that there are certain sections of the population who, if not trying to nick it are busy defacing it, and there I am afraid their interest and understanding ends.

Has it ever occurred that you might, more profitably, try cutting your suit according to your cloth as opposed to doing it the other way round? Rather than attempt to spread a meagre budget too thinly by doing a multitude of things, Might you not be better advised to do perhaps one or two things really well? And while we are talking about budgets, you do realise that there is a General Election taking place in a few weeks, and that most of the hoo-haa surrounds the fact that both major parties dare not spell out to the electorate the exact extent of the the cuts that are going to be necessary over the coming decade. I have heard it estimated that if the country wishes to avoid outright bankruptcy that a cut in government expenditure of 50% of GDP will be required this year alone. 50% of GDP is an astronomic figure. It will involve massive unemployment on a scale not seen since the 1930's. The government has already taken massive amounts from the lottery to fund the Olympics, when the brown stuff hits the fan do you seriously consider that they will have any compunction about taking whatever is left? And when they do, where will the funding for your arts centre come from then dear?

There is so much more that I want to discuss with you but it will have to wait until next time, or this post will become unmanageable.

Re: Oswaldtwistle Civic Theatre
 

You say you did Fine Art, yes, well so did I but I found most of the students on that course to be pompous and arrogant so switched to graphics.

You clearly don't believe this will work and I'm almost of the opinion that you actually want it to fail. You obviously don't want to get out there and actually help so that it will succeed. But that's fine, perhaps we can discuss this again in two years time when you will be free to say 'told you so' or eat humble pie.

Re: Oswaldtwistle Civic Theatre
 

As I said in my original post, Gayle, It will not work. It will end up being just another branch of social services catering to the feckless young who cannot be bothered to get off their spotty backsides and shift for themselves. Increasingly it will be seen by the police and the probation service as a convenient place to dump the waifs and strays with which they have to deal. And then there are the walking elderly who would just like a nice tea dance or a bring and buy. In speaking of "Arts for all" and funding streams and lottery bids for this and that, beware of raising expectations that you cannot satisfy. I recall that Nigel Rix became associated in the borough with failed lottery bids, I should hate to see anyone else tarred with that brush. And remember this too, when cuts have to be made, as they will, the first to suffer is the Arts and then the Parks.

However, I am not perfect and just as capable of being in error as the next man, or woman, or person. I hope you do succeed and prove me wrong. I shall however keep a close eye on the project and we will see what develops.

You and I are destined never to see eye to eye where Art is concerned, but at least we can be civil to each other, can't we?

Re: Oswaldtwistle Civic Theatre
 

Acrylic-Bob, it is you that is wrong. It will work.

There is little point in having a discussion about this when we are at such polar ends of the scale with regards to belief in the project. I'm am obviously not going to convince you that it will work, the only way to convince you will be as time progresses.

As for being civil, well I would be, but it was not me who accused you of being the equivalent of a lying, tax fiddling MP, nor was it me that patronised you with the continued use of 'dear'. If you would like civil and open debate then please accord me some courtesy and I will respond in the same way.

Re: Oswaldtwistle Civic Theatre
 

just a question can either Gayle or Acrylic-bob tell me of one decent piece of public art that has been designed by a "Komittee of the populi"..... ?. For some reason Accrington has no decent statues (think Victoria and Gladstone on Blackburn boulevard ) ......both were paid for by public subscription , not town Council grants , the various War memorials in the Hyndburn towns were all built by public donations, away from any UDC /Council interferance , apart from the donation of the site .
Both the Howarth and Tiffany glass collection came from private doners . No way can I imagine the good burghers of Accrington sitting thru a photoshop presentation and discussion of what the new Town Hall or Market Hall should look like , they gave the job to the best person available and let him get on with the job and hoped for the best ...(which we got) unlike that blue covered piece of crap behind the Town Hall on Broadway. Sorry in my opinion publicly supportd(council,komittee) art means only one thing .....Graffitti /urban blight

Re: Oswaldtwistle Civic Theatre
 

Wasn't it Alec Issigonis who said that the camel was a horse designed by a committee?

But the short answer your question, Steeljack, is no. The only thing that committees are good at is breeding more committees.

Re: Oswaldtwistle Civic Theatre
 

Grumpy drawers is regally sat on the Boulevard, but the Grand Old Man is sited outside King George's Hall, on Northgate. Arm outstretched, providing a handy perch for the flying rats.

My own favourite statue in Blackburn is Flora, in Corporation Park. Which my assorted followers of misfits, aesthestes, and social outcasts, used to adorn with flowers every school lunchtime, weather permitting.

It is odd that Accrington has so many fine public buildings, but no statues, commissioned with money made in t'mill.

Re: Oswaldtwistle Civic Theatre
 

Lol, I was just checking whether Gateshead Council had themselves commissioned the Angel of the North, and found this, on the council website.

http://www.gateshead.gov.uk/Document...ingPattern.pdf

Art in wool.

:D

Re: Oswaldtwistle Civic Theatre
 

We could have been knitting our own P....p....pan.....panop......,oh you know what I mean, if we were allowed to mention it.

:D

Re: Oswaldtwistle Civic Theatre
 

I did not accuse you of anything Gayle I merely asked, since you were unwilling to answer a simple question, what you had to hide. you drew those unfortunate conclusions entirely on your own.
I would have expected a lady of your calibre and education to understand that once she began taking the public penny she became, ipso facto, a public servant and as such is bound by generally understood behavioral conventions. For example: it is not generally held to be reasonable or polite to dismiss an enquiry by a member of the public with the line "I am very busy at the moment as it happens. I have an Arts Centre to open." one could almost hear the door slam as you swept off the forum. Further it is most definately not done to imply that a member of the public is, either directly or by association "pompous and arrogant". You might think it, but you may not say it. But, then, we all say things in the heat of the moment that we later regret, I know I do. So, in true Accyweb spirit, I will take your apology as read.


I beg to differ on this point too, perhaps if you had stuck around with the fine artists instead of typesetters then you would understand that it is at precisely this point that the most illuminating discussions are held. It is a precious point where positions and proposals may be examined ruthlessly, tested to destruction and rebuilt. The argument for and against opposing hypotheses forms the whole basis of our culture and has done since the Greeks developed the use rhetoric, logic and oratory in the 5th century BC. I guess they do not teach too much about that sort of thing in "Graphics".

And you see this is what really worries me about all this civic arts centre malarky. It is the same thing that worried me about the Panopticon farrago and most of the stuff funded by the Arts Council come to that; it appears all surface and effect with little intellectual depth; in a word, superficial. It appears to be more about the beurocracy of arts administration, focus groups, feasibility studies, reports on reports, evidence based outcomes and all the rest of the quangospeak gibberish. As I have said to you before Gayle , you cannot teach ART. You can teach skills but that is all you can do. Art will either happen or it will not, more often it will not and no amount of evidence based outcomes, funding seminars or wishful thinking will alter that simple fact.

Re: Oswaldtwistle Civic Theatre
 

I think it is time to use a well worn civil service expression -
'I am a public servant - not a public convenience'

Re: Oswaldtwistle Civic Theatre
 

Just a quickie before I comment on this .. Gayle is a Freelance Project Manager, and should be charging a lot more than what she does.

Re: Oswaldtwistle Civic Theatre
 

I was not unwilling to answer your question. I had nothing to hide and have nothing to hide. In fact, I think you'll have to agree that I answer any direct question openly and honestly. Just because I took some time to answer did not mean that I was hiding anything, it was quite simply because I was busy and not on Accyweb for some time. You were away for over a year but we didn't go screaming for your head because you were doing other things. I agree that I am working for the council and so should be accountable, which is why I will continue to invite you to come along and see the work that is being done, to take part in steering group meetings and to generally work with us to ensure it is a success. I have nothing to hide.

I will reiterate, I am very busy because I am trying to open an Arts Centre at the moment. What I should be doing right now, instead of responding to you, is filling in the three funding application forms that are stacked up and the two events safety forms that need to be in by Tuesday.

If you choose to read anything in to my comments then that is of course, your perogative.

I accept your apology.


I found that the fine art students spent many hours discussing and debating issues but not actually 'doing' anything.

I can't respond to this because I don't think there is anything that I can say that will convince you otherwise. I would love for you to come along and talk to me about it. Come to the meeting, be part of the steering group.

You can teach ART, if you couldn't why would there be Art colleges in the first place? Are you saying you learnt nothing at university whilst doing your fine art degree?

You can teach history of art, mechanics of art, you can teach stage craft, you can teach music (remember, we're not just talking about visual art, we're talking about all genre of arts - film, drama, music etc). A great pianist does not become a great pianist without having first learnt how to use a piano.

Art does not just happen - yes, there has to be talent and ability, skill and learning but most of all, there has to opportunity. Some people have potential but because the tools aren't available or the opportunities aren't there for them they are unable to fulfill their potential. This is partly about creating the opportunities for the very talented and for creating enjoyable activities for the enthusiastic. You don't have to turn out a great artist or artiste for them to have enjoyed an artistic experience because Art needn't always be about the end product either, it can be about the process.

Finally, some art does not happen without organisation i.e. someone co-ordinating a drama club or someone co-ordinating a photography exhibition. Some of the Arts are not a solo pursuits and it does take someone who has the ability to present the opporunities to people for things to happen.

Re: Oswaldtwistle Civic Theatre
 

To be more helpful I have put Gayle's comments in Red and my response in black, well it saves all that cutting and pasting of html code.


You can teach ART, if you couldn't why would there be Art colleges in the first place? Are you saying you learnt nothing at university whilst doing your fine art degree?


First mistake: not reading the argument fully. I was careful to point out that the necessary skills can most certainly be taught; that is what art schools are for. Some institutions teach well, some badly, most are midlingly indifferent.

Are you saying you learnt nothing at university whilst doing your fine art degree?


Au contraire mon cher, I learnt a great deal, the chief being how how little I knew.

I found that the fine art students spent many hours discussing and debating issues but not actually 'doing' anything.

And this is precisley how one learns just how little one knows and how to go about rectifying the situation. We learn as much from our fellows as from our tutors, in some cases more!

You can teach history of art, mechanics of art, you can teach stage craft, you can teach music (remember, we're not just talking about visual art, we're talking about all genre of arts - film, drama, music etc). A great pianist does not become a great pianist without having first learnt how to use a piano.

We have been through this, of course the skills can be taught, if that is what you mean by "the mechanics of art" and of necessity acquiring the skills must come before all else.

Art does not just happen

Well, actually, it does, but more about that later.

there has to be talent and ability, skill and learning but most of all, there has to opportunity. Some people have potential but because the tools aren't available or the opportunities aren't there for them they are unable to fulfill their potential.

This is the commonplace truth of all the spheres of human endeavour, not just art. Life is unfair and despite our best endeavours society is not just and equitable. Indeed, to take the proposition to its logical origin, who can say how many Mozarts or Spielbergs have been flushed down hospital loos as a result of the availability of abortion on demand? Would you care to argue a case that to protect and promote the potential of the unborn that abortion should not be available?

This is partly about creating the opportunities for the very talented and for creating enjoyable activities for the enthusiastic.

Only partly? What are the other parts about? It strikes me that the "very talented", if they are so, are more than capable of shifting for themselves and overcoming life's little hurdles, I know I and many others have. The cream rises to the top. Even in the marxist paradise of the USSR, to paraphrase Shaw, those who can, did, and were often comparatively very well rewarded for their efforts. I have no argument against "creating enjoyable activities for the enthusiastic.", But it isn't ART. It is what it is, an opportunity to indulge in activities outside the normal run of the mill. An entertainment or divertissment. Dress it up and lard it with high blown phraseology as you will, but it will never be anything different nor will it produce anything of objective and enduring worth except, and very occaisionally, by accident rather than intent.

You don't have to turn out a great artist or artiste for them to have enjoyed an artistic experience.

By admitting as much, in a way, you make my argument for me. You are providing the same thing, but in a slightly different form, as the Civic Theatre: pabulum for the masses. Hence the suggestion of "Bollywood aerobics" classes along with making good some of the deficiencies of the state education system.


Art needn't always be about the end product either, it can be about the process.

This statement is straight out of the Arts Administration For All handbook circa 1980. It was discredited years ago and I highlight it here merely to illustrate the redundancy of your thinking. Pass the lentils Mavis. I usually find that people who spout this meaningless drivel are also convinced that sandals are a good idea and that tie-dying can make a positive fashion statement.

Finally, some art does not happen without organisation i.e. someone co-ordinating a drama club or someone co-ordinating a photography exhibition. Some of the Arts are not a solo pursuits and it does take someone who has the ability to present the opporunities to people for things to happen.

Well, I was just waiting for this one! The last resort of the beurocrat - self referential self justification. How did Michelangelo ever manage the sistine ceiling without an army of facilitators and report writers and feasibility studyists to help him understand what he was doing? The poor chap must have been in a real quandry, when all he had to fall back on was his own abilities, inspiration and vision.

Nothing that you have said here convinces me that this little project will be anything other than an exercise in bidding for cash and then wasting it. Casting pearls before swine. Or, as I said in my initial post, more of the same old same old. It will be the same tired old drivel that the borough was so graciously conceded by Mid Pennine Arts.

Art cannot be taught. And this is true because ART is a subjective experience. It is a nonspecific qualitative judgement that cannot be equated with the innate ability to create. Art can be experienced, and ways of experiencing art can certainly be taught. Ways of seeing can likewise be taught. What cannot be taught is the passion one must feel to create art in the first place.

Or to put it another way, you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.