Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

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Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

Couldn't care less Graham, I leave private health care to champagne socialist, I'll stick with the NHS like I've always done, just hope it don't kill me in the process

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

yeh yeh we had heard it all before:rolleyes:....same bull****, they say they gonna do this, gonna do that, but do they?........:rolleyes:

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

You are missing the point Graham. I did not say the NHS was bad just that it is badly managed.

Here are some interesting maths for you.

Population of the UK is approx 60 million
NHS budget for 2008 is £90 billion

90 billion / 60 million = £1500 per year per person in the UK.

£1500 / 12 months = £125

A quote for me on that zip code game to $315.88 which according to Google is £159 per month.

I agree you would pay more in the States for your health care but £35 per month is not that much more is it? Just think of all the waiting around we do waiting to be seen by consultants and how late all our appointments often are (due to poor management)

Please don't forget that the NHS is not free. We pay for it out of taxes. Maybe we should have the option to opt out and pay for private healthcare instead but that is for another debate.

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

Sorry for the above thread wander folks.

I think we were talking about truth and honesty in politics.

On that subject I had best go before I accuse one of Graham's Labour Councillor's of lying to me. I suppose lie is a little strong.
How would you describe someone who tells you they will do one thing and then does the opposite?

Untrustworthy?
Dishonest?
Unreliable?
Deceitful?


Talking about honest and trust worthy I must take my hat of to Tony Dobson, well done that man.

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

I'd say unreliable myself Neil,:( and my hats of to TD as well:thumbsup:

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

Why must you take your hat off to Tony Dobson - what has he done that is so wonderful?

Also in case you have a bad case of amnesia - it was the Tory government who introduced the many layers of 'management' into the NHS when they thought up the idea of the internal market.

Despite the figures quoted, the NHS remains free at the point of use. No one is turned away because they can not afford medical treatment. I hate to think how much anyone with a serious long term medical condition would be charged by a medical insurance company.

The all ethos of the Welfare State is from each according to his means to each according to their needs. I wonder if you can name one 'Tory' policy that has benefited so many people for almost 60 years. (in case you forgot - the NHS came into being on 5/7/1948).

Contrast this with Thacher, who said there is no such thing as society, she really did believe in devil take the hindmost.

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

So, why is the present government not reversing this policy? In fact, why is it continuing the work of the Tories by introducing ever more layers of bureacracy and involving more private companies in the NHS?

Because, the likes of Gordon Brown and Tony Blair are no more "the friends of the working man" than Margaret Thatcher was!

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

Do you have to be a pillock every day of your life Jaysay???? I thought it interesting as it is sometimes too easy to knock the NHS.

Champagne Socialist, Red Robbo, Narcissist, Not a socialist, Loony Left, communist. What is it? An insult a month? You provide good entertainment value if nothing else.

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

How much do you pay in income tax alone per month? The average UK salary is 22k which is around £400 a month tax. The cost of insurance for a 29 year old non-smoker is £158 from that link.

Now average US salary is 18k which would mean they pay £225 in income tax a month. So £225 + £158 = £383

Not much difference really? Except we have to pay National Insurance, VAT (17.5% opposed to the 0% in US) and all the stealth taxes Labour like to crank up.

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

I think you are missing the point that the NHS is free at the point of use. There are many people in this country (of all ages), who would not be able to afford medical insurance, even if taxes were much lower, because of any medical conditions they have. Maybe, if you suffered from a chronic (and incurable) medical condition, you might have a different idea on the matter.

But how could I expect a Tory to even begin to understand that we all have a moral duty to protect the most vunerable in how society. I stand by my assertion that Torys are only interested in themselves.

If employers wanted people to have paid holidays - why have we had to enact legislation to increase holiday pay to include payment for bank holidays. My son in law, has to take bank holidays off (but was not allowed to use any of his 20 days holiday entitlement for these days), but it was not until Oct 2007 that he began to be paid for some of them. How would you like to have to provide for your family, when you only have 4 pays pay rather than 5.

I would be interested in how you feel in several year's time when you are in the 'real' world. Maybe you will have a different view by then, when you are out in the 'grown up' world.

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

[quote=claytonender

I would be interested in how you feel in several year's time when you are in the 'real' world. Maybe you will have a different view by then, when you are out in the 'grown up' world.[/quote]

Why do you keep dismissing Cyfr's point of view and implying that he knows nothing because he's young? :confused:

He strikes me as an intelligent young man, I'm sure he will do very well.

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

There are various ways to provide for those who can't afford insurance. Anyway, I never said I wanted private healthcare in Britain. I simply added up sums to backup the point Neil made earlier, the NHS is mismanaged.

I think the Conservatives do understand the vulnerable in society need protecting. I certainly do, and other Conservatives I've spoken to think likewise.

What exactly do you base your theory on, that the Tories are only interested in themselves? Who exactly are the Tories you speak of?

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

my guess is because its true.:rolleyes:

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

Pre the Labour party, when we only had the Tories and the Liberals, those governing parties came up with an efficient, and cost effective, way to deal with those poor souls needing society's care and help....the workhouse.

I remember when the last Conservative government harked on about a return to 'Victorian values'.

Child prostitution, unsanitary housing, disease, no paid holidays, massive crime, and general poverty, for the vast majority of the population.

I don't know why it didn't catch on.:D

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

Everyone in America does have Health Care Cover. It's a myth they don't. What people mean is full health insurance covered by private policy. 50million americans don't have private insurance but rely on medicare, the national health service for Americans. And it is a poor service that covers little. It is where our NHS will end up I believe if we let private health care enter our system.

It's that point which is missed in Conservative proposals. Once we have 2 classes of Health Care, we will open the floodgates year on year to a widening health care service gap. It is inevitable.

Lets be honest. The Blair Government has widened inequality despite promises to narrow the gap. Governments have ideals and don;t live up them. Jam tomorrow I think they call it. Blair may have helped the bottom 10% significantly, pensioner credits, more jobs, tax credits in general (a mess) but it has allowed the top 50% run away.

My criticism of my own government is it has continued the Tory philosophy that trickle down works. Let the rich get rich and and the poor will benefit.

It never works. It is why I would never vote Tory. We need a progressive taxation system like Scandanavia. We need strong legislation to protect families and communities (such as Post Office's eg) like in France. We need sometimes to say NO to market forces and YES to people power.

An example locally. Planning and Licensing laws favour business all the way. I would want local communities/area committees/neighbourhood boards or councils, to have the last say on off licences and pubs. That would be true democracy. Certain planning decisions, local communities given the right of veto. Let's make business work for people and not the own way around.

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

You just said trickle down doesn't work, and that Blair kept the Conservative ideas on it. Yet you also said Blair has improved the lives of those at the bottom financially. If that isn't using the market to distribute wealth what is?

As for Conservative NHS proposals, you seem to hint they want privatisation which isn't what they want at all. They want to keep the NHS, they want to stop Labours closures, they want to save communities, they want to save post offices, want more power to the individual, give them control over their own lives not run it for them. Are you sure you're in the right party, because Labour have done all they can over the last 10 years to eradicate personal freedom, raise taxes to finance their failed NHS policy of "pump as much money in, I'm sure it'll fix itself sooner or later", hinder Police performance with target after target, hinder NHS performance with target after target and completely ignore the bottom, the very foundations of the NHS, the staff. You think things were bad in the NHS in the 80's/90's? Go to Blackburn Royal Hospital and go ask the staff about their moral, because I'm telling you now, it might have been underfunded back then when our economy wasn't so good, but everyone I've spoken to preferred how it was run. Infact, somebody who has worked their 50 years as a nurse told me it has NEVER been so bad, may I remind you the NHS is only 60.

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

Well it takes one to know one Jones, You make being a P****** into an art form and to be quite honest I actuall think you need to see an NHS doctor yourself, because anyone who has pathological hatred of people who hold a different political ethos than you, is not wired up right. I have been involved in politics since 1963 and in all that time I have only met two people who I detested both in poltical and ordinary life, and they were Goldsmith and Delaney. I use the same yard stick as I have always used about people, I take them as I find them. Although I have never met you, I think you could possibly be the third on my list, no not possibly, definitely

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

You're wrong again jaysay. Councillor Jones is a champagne socialist pillock; ie hyphenated. The word before the hyphen being Prize.

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

These figures interested me so I did a bit of checking, according to the Office for National Statistics the number of people paying Income Tax in 2007 was 29.4 million.
The average, or median, earnings for the same year were £23,764.

£90billion divided by 29.4 million is £3,061 per tax-payer, per year, further divided by twelve is £255 per month.

But whichever way round you look at it the NHS is grossly inefficient and horrifically expensive and is in dire need of root and branch re-organisation. Merely chucking ever larger bundles of cash at it will not solve the endemic profligacy and waste and will not deliver a health care system that is responsive to the needs of it's users. It will not solve the "post-code lottery" differences in treatment and medication and it will not solve the problems inherent in an ageing customer base. Bigger is not always better, because along with the increase in infrastructure and staffing comes a consequent increase in the scale of problems and their solution. This is why it is proving so difficult to beat hospital acquired infections; large institutions respond more slowly than small ones.

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

I could give many examples of mismanagement.

I went to RBH for a cat scan appointment at 9.15am. I was the first appointment. I was there at 9.05am. At just after 9:10am several members of staff walked into the department and disappeared behind closed doors. At about 9.15am someone appeared explaining they were just warming up the machine which would take 15 minutes. I was seen at 9.30am. I was the first appointment and they started the day off 15 minutes late.

Its simply really, if it takes 15 minutes to get the machine ready and the first appointment is 9.15 then the staff should be switching the machine on a 9am.

That is just an example of the front line staff that many people like to say are under pain and over worked. They can't even start work on time.

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

I wonder if a mod could split this thread - it does seem to have gone on a bit of a wander and a discussion of the NHS is nothing to do with silly name calling.

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

We might as well talk about the NHS Gayle.

When I suggested that one of Grahams Labour Councillors had been untruthfull towards me (which is just about on topic) he did not wish to question me on the matter.
He might only be interesting in pre election mud slinging at non Labour people.

I even gave him a lead in to tell us about his wonderful budget ideas, again he stayed quiet.

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

I supose we have to be thankful for small mercies Niel, saves me having to telling him tohttp://content.sweetim.com/sim/cpie/...s/00020231.gif

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

The figures have to be the number of patients it must oversee and total budget to figure a per person cost. The fact wealth people pay more through tax and some people pay less doesn't equate to the value of the whole system.

THe US system also costs more the more ill you are or the more old you are. Some people won;t even qualify for insurance. The NHS covers dental care and in some cases eye care. The US system, that is extra.

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

It would cover dental care if the Government had not killed the idea off.

You gave figures for the US private healthcare costs but did not for the state system. You need to add both figures together for a true representation.

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

That's very good for them and you. A workmate last week had an appointment for 2.15pm and was seen at 5.45pm, he did mention that the majority of patients who where in the waiting room with him where non British, asians and eastern europeans to be exact, no surprise there then. That is why I will never vote Labour in a General Election ever again, they have opened our borders to far too many immigrants who as I've said before are bleeding the Health Service to death. It does make me wonder if we had private health schemes would this go some way to stop the influx?

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

don't talk crap baggy,we can't afford it,they can.:D;)

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

twas one that operated on me last week, n a damn good job of it he did.;)

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

Foreign doc operated on my father last year ( cancer of the oesophagus ) wife’s consultant was a foreign lad, no quibbles about their abilities at all….wonder where our lot have gone though and the reasons why.

This is well off topic, sorry cllr jones :rolleyes:

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

MichaelMoore.com : SiCKO : Latest 'SiCKO' News

Maybe you should watch this :D

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

As an Accringtonian in California who deals with the US healthcare system on a daily basis, I can sum it up as thus.

If you have a job, with health benefits, you are pretty well set. (Although the quotes that people have been getting assume that you don't pay any more money). Most plans have additional fees (either flat or a percentage) which are paid at the point of service.

If you have a job that doesnt offer health benefits, you are screwed. Healthcare costs are spiraling out of control. Companies are struggling to deal with it, and individuals are not being able to cope. Typically, they are increasing at 25% per year, due in large part to satisfy the needs of shareholders of insurance companies, and lawsuit friendly nature of the US. 83% of US healthcare spending is on non-patient related care.

Medicare isn't, as Councillor Jones said, a cover all system. It only provides for people over the age of 65. There are other state programs which offer means tested health benefits, but you would have to have almost zero income to qualify for almost all of these. With the budgetary issues that we have been having, most of these programs are being cut significantly. A perfect example last week was my wife's 97 year old grandmother being told that her cardiologist didnt want to see her any more because he wasn't getting enough money from the state. He talked her into signing up for spending an additional $97 a month so he could continue to see her by signing up with the insurance company rep that was hanging out in his waiting room.

IF you make a modest income, then there is almost no government help for you, and if you get sick or hurt in a car accident, or break your leg playing football, you can be financially ruined for life. My sister in law recently quit her job as she is pregnant, because she couldn't afford to pay for her stay in hospital to have her baby. By quitting she qualifies for a modicum of support from the government. That being said she still is on the hook for $500 per day for each day she, or her baby, is in hospital. God forbid it has a problem and stays there for a month, and run up $15,000 of medical bills.

I am lucky, I get bulletproof healthcare through my wife's chosen career, but medical debt is responsible for more personal bankruptcies in California than everything else put together. I LONG for the days of the NHS, at least as I remember it. I have been back home and been treated (the latest time at christmas this year) and I couldn't have asked for anything better. I understand personal experience may be different, but its just my opinion.

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

Thanks for sharing that personal insight with us Gareth, most interesting.

The N.H.S. does have it's faults, but the alternative doesn't bear thinking about. I know that if I lived in the States, and having been diagnosed with Parkinson's Disease at thirty nine, I'd not be receiving the drug treatment I'm getting now, mainly because of the expense.

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

No one is saying we don't want an NHS. We just want the Government to stop killing what we have.

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

Stop Labouring the point you silly cow!:D

We know what you meant.:D

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

See.

Back on track.:D

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

This is the problem it was a good health service until we opened the borders and let in far too many immigrants who come here and drain it of resources that the British taxpayers have funded. Can I ask did you become ill whilst in England or did you come over to get treatment that would have cost in the US?

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

I got sick while I was attending a wedding in England. I was prescribed a ventolin inhaler which I paid for, and submitted my insurance paperwork to the doctor's office so that they could claim back the cost of my visit.

The ongoing problem that we are facing as a society, pretty much world wide, is that we are keeping more and more people alive for longer and longer and creating more need for health and human services.

We have the same issue with immigration - I live about 2 miles from the Mexican Border, and there is an issue of treating illegal immigrants and who pays for it. I am flying off topic:-). PB probably shouldn't have used the phrase "silly cow". But if he did he should have sucked it up and admitted it. I'd prefer a verbal abuser than a liar running my town.

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

Thank you for answering my question and not biting my head off (a few could learn from this). :)

Your final sentence says it all for me and I'm in total agreement with you.

Re: "Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe
 

well said Gareth, n thats n ex-pat with no local political affiliations i assume? pity all locals don't view it in that light.