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-   -   Post Office Closures (https://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f69/post-office-closures-37825.html)

andrewb 17-03-2008 20:05
Post Office Closures
 
There is a vote next week tabled by the Conservatives to suspend post office closures. Labour want to close them, but many of the Labour MP's are campaigning locally to keep them.

Greg Pope has said he wants to keep post offices open and has criticised the huge amounts of money the managers get in bonuses. Hopefully he will rebel against his party and defend our post offices.

Neil 17-03-2008 20:15
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Can you explain who will pay for the Post Offices if they are kept open?

andrewb 17-03-2008 20:21
Re: Post Office Closures
 
The post offices get a grant, so tax payers pay part, well all of it because of course they pay when they post things too. I'm sure things can be done to make post offices run more effective and at a lower cost to the public, but shutting them down is the wrong path I feel.

cashman 17-03-2008 20:28
Re: Post Office Closures
 
so are buses n trains but it never stopped them goin down the pan.:confused:

andrewb 17-03-2008 20:30
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Buses and trains still exist though. Although were there more back then? I don't know I wasn't around and I doubt I'm going to find those specifics on the internet.

For the record I think rail privatisation was a bad thing. But lets keep this on topic. :D

cashman 17-03-2008 20:32
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Post offices will still exist if they close some,its the same scenario.

andrewb 17-03-2008 20:34
Re: Post Office Closures
 
It's not though is it.. They are going to exist but in far fewer number.

If something is necessary for the public, such as post offices, but can't be run with a profit, then I think the government should be backing the system up.

Buses still exist in large numbers because it's profitable.

cashman 17-03-2008 21:07
Re: Post Office Closures
 
aint disagreeing with yer arguement,just tellin it the way it is. sucessive governments do not give a rats about the "Little" people, aint condescending but ya will learn when youve been round the block a few times, by the way i voted to keep em open.

andrewb 17-03-2008 21:29
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Fair enough, as long as we're on the same wavelength :D

katex 17-03-2008 21:34
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Have voted no .. sorry, but business is business :idunno:

Why should we taxpayers pay more to subsidise a losing battle. No point in throwing good money after bad.

cashman 17-03-2008 21:36
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by katex (Post 547457)
Have voted no .. sorry, but business is business :idunno:

Why should we taxpayers pay more to subsidise a losing battle. No point in throwing good money after bad.
has PB proposed to ya kate?:D

MargaretR 17-03-2008 21:40
Re: Post Office Closures
 
whisper -- surely not .... I thought she wanted to keep up with the Jones's;)

katex 17-03-2008 21:42
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 547460)
has PB proposed to ya kate?:D
Can think for meself thank you very much .... :p

garinda 17-03-2008 21:45
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Not very Conservative, keeping unprofitable businesses open, propped up by tax payers money, is it?

What happened to the free market economy?

Your beloved Lady Thatcher must be livid with this turn of events, as she struggles the half mile to Raphael Street in Knightsbridge, to collect her pension.:D

andrewb 17-03-2008 21:51
Re: Post Office Closures
 
I wondered when this would come garinda ;)

Hence my clause that it should only be supported if it's necessary and can't be financed privately.

A completely free market wasn't advocated by even the Iron Lady.

It's a very Conservative approach, for it is common sense asking for it to be reviewed, which clearly it does when even profitable post offices are facing closure!

garinda 17-03-2008 22:05
Re: Post Office Closures
 
On a personal level, I think it is very sad that many Post Offices face closure, just as I lament the death of the High Street, due to the ever expanding supermarkets.

However, just as people's shopping habits have changed, so has the world in which the Post Office now exists.

When was the last time any of us went into a Post Office?

For me it's been well over a year.

Pensions and benefits are paid directly into bank accounts. The renewal of things that once resullted in queueing in the Post Office, can now be done via the telephone, or online.

For better or worse, times have changed, and I for one don't think public money should be used to keep unprofitable businesses open.

If people want their Post Office as a social meeting place, then that money should be invested in community centres, that aren't only open 9-5, and closed all day on a Sunday.

cashman 17-03-2008 22:07
Re: Post Office Closures
 
i was in one today rind with paris,n i use 1 at least once a fortnight i reckon.

katex 17-03-2008 22:09
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 547486)
i was in one today rind with paris,n i use 1 at least once a fortnight i reckon.
What for ?


For the Cash, Cashman ? .. you a bit unusual that you boast you always deal in Cash .. little unusual these days methinks.

Royboy39 17-03-2008 22:10
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by katex (Post 547457)
Have voted no .. sorry, but business is business :idunno:

Why should we taxpayers pay more to subsidise a losing battle. No point in throwing good money after bad.
Nice one Katex..........a few quid to subsidise the post office would be better spent than propping-up the banking industry after the years of ripping off their customers..............stability my arse

andrewb 17-03-2008 22:11
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 547483)
When was the last time any of us went into a Post Office?
A few days ago for posting, and three times the week before.

An awful lot of people still use them, and they're very valuable for other services too.

cashman 17-03-2008 22:13
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by katex (Post 547487)
What for ?


For the Cash, Cashman ? .. you a bit unusual that you boast you always deal in Cash .. little unusual these days methinks.
yep was changing cash for euros no commision that way,sod travellers cheques.;)

andrewb 17-03-2008 22:15
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Oh and lets get something straight, we currently have a £150million subsidy, which works out as a little over £2 per person a year. I don't think thats too much is it? (and thats if it was all equal, in actual fact the rich pay much more than £2 and the middle/lower classes pay less in terms of tax).

For that price I really think its worth keeping.

katex 17-03-2008 22:15
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royboy39 (Post 547489)
Nice one Katex..........a few quid to subsidise the post office would be better spent than propping-up the banking industry after the years of ripping off their customers..............stability my arse
Well, yes, that is a fair argument Royboy, however, just focusing on one issue here. There is, at least, a chance to turn around the banking industry, but no future profitable projection for the sub-post offices as far as I can see.

garinda 17-03-2008 22:15
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr (Post 547490)
A few days ago for posting, and three times the week before.

An awful lot of people still use them, and they're very valuable for other services too.
There's a hell of a lot less people using them now, than twenty, or even ten, years ago.

Thursday, being pension day, used to be the best day of the week for many local businesses, as the old folks spent their cash. Not now.

shakermaker 17-03-2008 22:17
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr (Post 547490)
A few days ago for posting, and three times the week before.

An awful lot of people still use them, and they're very valuable for other services too.
Was that a GPO or a little 'corner shop' Post Office?
I was under the impression that General Post Offices would be kept open. I know it's the only Post Office I use. Then again I live five minutes walk from town.
I feel sorry for people who are losing so much, i.e. those in small villages in the middle of nowhere. I know some of the folk in Hapton are livid at theirs being closed.

It's a sad situation.

garinda 17-03-2008 22:20
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr (Post 547490)
A few days ago for posting, and three times the week before.
I think the only people who will really miss them is the eBay generation.

I buy stamps at the local shop, and when I was in business myself, always used courier companies, who were cheaper and more reliable than the Post Office.

For the last Conservative government's opening up the postal business to competition, and breaking the monopoly, I thank you.:D

andrewb 17-03-2008 22:22
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker (Post 547496)
Was that a GPO or a little 'corner shop' Post Office?
I was under the impression that General Post Offices would be kept open. I know it's the only Post Office I use. Then again I live five minutes walk from town.
I feel sorry for people who are losing so much, i.e. those in small villages in the middle of nowhere. I know some of the folk in Hapton are livid at theirs being closed.

It's a sad situation.
You're correct the GPO isn't closing, but the one I used is facing closure.

cashman 17-03-2008 22:23
Re: Post Office Closures
 
see to me those who are in favour dont give two figs for coffin dodgers that live out in the sticks not near a town centre, or folk that have no transport, to me thats a sad indictment on todays society.:(

katex 17-03-2008 22:25
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 547491)
yep was changing cash for euros no commision that way,sod travellers cheques.;)
You do that every 2 weeks then ? Not exactly the poor pensioner most objectors talk about, who can't walk very far, etc.

Don't know which airline you travel to Spain with, but the one I go with usually has an agreement with one of the exchange bureaus at the airport for commission free exchange. Does alternate from year to year .. but if I can travel to Spain once a year, am sure can get down to the General Post Office in Accrington to save myself this charge.

cashman 17-03-2008 22:27
Re: Post Office Closures
 
no but i use one at least every 2 weeks n its no business of yours what for.:p

Royboy39 17-03-2008 22:28
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by katex (Post 547493)
Well, yes, that is a fair argument Royboy, however, just focusing on one issue here. There is, at least, a chance to turn around the banking industry, but no future profitable projection for the sub-post offices as far as I can see.
The global economy is in a mess and the pound is sinking to the lowest depth's it's ever been....The government is borrowing way out of it's depth to fund the banking industry and other stupid projects.....giving grants to all and sundry who cry poverty both home and abroad.

Keep the home fires burning and look after the ones who have looked after you in the past.

Use the subsidies to promote wealth in the community....Prop up the local economy....get shut of the non performing MP's in Europe and at home.
MP's expenses would go a long way to subsidise Post Offices..........Cut the Bull and get real.

garinda 17-03-2008 22:30
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 547499)
see to me those who are in favour dont give two figs for coffin dodgers that live out in the sticks not near a town centre, or folk that have no transport, to me thats a sad indictment on todays society.:(
As I said, I do think it's sad.

Growing up my local Post Office was in Stanhill village, and the lady who ran it was much loved by all.

But like it or lump it, things have changed.

Personally I don't know any pensioners who go to the Post Office to collect their pension. It's paid directly into their bank account, and therefore, can in theory, be earning them interest from that very moment, instead of the Post Office.

katex 17-03-2008 22:32
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 547499)
see to me those who are in favour dont give two figs for coffin dodgers that live out in the sticks not near a town centre, or folk that have no transport, to me thats a sad indictment on todays society.:(

That's not very fair Cashy .. that, as you have stated, is a sad indictment of today's society, and going to the local post office, just a small part of it.

BERNADETTE 17-03-2008 22:35
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Surely the point is that the people who do want to use the service will be prevented from doing so as it no longer exists.

garinda 17-03-2008 22:36
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 547499)
see to me those who are in favour dont give two figs for coffin dodgers that live out in the sticks not near a town centre, or folk that have no transport
In that case, I'd much rather the money that's being used to shore up ailing Post Offices, was invested in a better public transport system.

No matter how many, or few, Post Offices there are, there will always be people who don't have one on their doorstep.

Lilly 17-03-2008 22:38
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 547506)
As I said, I do think it's sad.

Growing up my local Post Office was in Stanhill village, and the lady who ran it was much loved by all.

But like it or lump it, things have changed.

Personally I don't know any pensioners who go to the Post Office to collect their pension. It's paid directly into their bank account, and therefore, can in theory, be earning them interest from that very moment, instead of the Post Office.

I know several pensioners who go to the Post Office to collect their pension. There are still a lot of old folk who don't trust banks and even if they did they can't remember pin numbers and even if they could they're frightened of using the cashpoint because they're outside and might get their cash ripped out of their hand by muggers. :eek:

Closing the Post Offices will hit the elderly, infirm and those with no transport the hardest. Where do you collect your pension from now if you're 87, live in Hapton and you're a bit shaky on your pins? :confused:

garinda 17-03-2008 22:41
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilly (Post 547512)
There are still a lot of old folk who don't trust banks and even if they did they can't remember pin numbers
Like I said, it was only a personal observation.

By the way, since pension books were done away with, and cards issued, those pensioners you know, who still go to the Post Office to collect their pension money, need to pin in their own unique number before their cash is issued.;)

BERNADETTE 17-03-2008 22:41
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Surely the point is that the people who do want to use the service will be prevented from doing so as it no longer exists.

garinda 17-03-2008 22:42
Re: Post Office Closures
 
...and most pensioners I know are quite savvy with the workings of the modern world, many more so than me.:D

cashman 17-03-2008 22:43
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by katex (Post 547508)
That's not very fair Cashy .. that, as you have stated, is a sad indictment of today's society, and going to the local post office, just a small part of it.
its as fair as closing em to me.

Royboy39 17-03-2008 22:43
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 547506)
As I said, I do think it's sad. Personally I don't know any pensioners who go to the Post Office to collect their pension. It's paid directly into their bank account, and therefore, can in theory, be earning them interest from that very moment, instead of the Post Office.
Interest......what interest?

4 - 5 or 6% is not worth a carrot.

Where can businesses post a parcel apart from the post offices?
Where can people collect a parcel that has not been delivered apart from the post office?

Where can you buy a postal order?
Who can give you sound advice on how much it will cost to send mail or a parcel?
THE POST OFFICE

andrewb 17-03-2008 22:47
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 547506)

Personally I don't know any pensioners who go to the Post Office to collect their pension. It's paid directly into their bank account, and therefore, can in theory, be earning them interest from that very moment, instead of the Post Office.
I bet pensioners in the North East would rather get their money from the post office than trust the bank!

garinda 17-03-2008 22:48
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royboy39 (Post 547518)

Where can businesses post a parcel apart from the post offices?
Oh I forgot, it's Mrs Royboy who still bounces cheques.

You'll find in the modern world there are many carriers who will collect direct from your home or business.

As stated earlier, I found them to be more reliable, and cost effective, than using the Post Office's service.

Lilly 17-03-2008 22:49
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 547513)
Like I said, it was only a personal observation.

By the way, since pension books were done away with, and cards issued, those pensioners you know, who still go to the Post Office to collect their pension money, need to pin in their own unique number before their cash is issued.;)
Do they?

What's that all about then? :confused:

I've had pensioners say to me when discussing this that they can't remember pin numbers so I just thought that they didn't need them at the Post Office.
Remembering pin numbers can be taken off the list then, if they're using them already. :)

Royboy39 17-03-2008 22:50
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 547515)
...and most pensioners I know are quite savvy with the workings of the modern world, many more so than me.:D
HOW RIGHT YOU ARE :cool:

cashman 17-03-2008 22:50
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 547506)

Personally I don't know any pensioners who go to the Post Office to collect their pension. It's paid directly into their bank account, and therefore, can in theory, be earning them interest from that very moment, instead of the Post Office.
thats probably cos you dont go in em mate,more often than not i use the one in the co-op up ossy, n i usually camp differant ones in the queue whilst waiting.

garinda 17-03-2008 22:51
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr (Post 547520)
I bet pensioners in the North East would rather get their money from the post office than trust the bank!
There are probably people who wish milk was still deliverd in churns, from the back of a cart, and that most children would be better employed sweeping chimneys.

Life changes all the time.

Lilly 17-03-2008 22:52
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 547515)
...and most pensioners I know are quite savvy with the workings of the modern world, many more so than me.:D
The word 'pensioner' can be applied to anyone over 60 I think.....or is it 65?

They can still be savvy at that age. It's the people in their 80s and 90s that worry me in all this.

garinda 17-03-2008 22:53
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 547527)
thats probably cos you dont go in em mate,more often than not i use the one in the co-op up ossy, n i usually camp differant ones in the queue whilst waiting.
Ok, I know you, but since you're not of pensionable age...yet, you don't count in my statement that I personally don't know any pensioners who still collect their money from the Post Office.:D

cashman 17-03-2008 22:54
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 547528)

Life changes all the time.
not always for the better.

andrewb 17-03-2008 22:54
Re: Post Office Closures
 
The environmental effect is rather bad too, forcing people to travel all the way instead of just walking to their local post office.

cashman 17-03-2008 22:56
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 547531)
Ok, I know you, but since you're not of pensionable age...yet, you don't count in my statement that I personally don't know any pensioners who still collect their money from the Post Office.:D
well i dont know if they are collecting pensions or not,dont ask em,the point being there is always some in using the post office for whatever reason.

garinda 17-03-2008 22:56
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilly (Post 547529)
The word 'pensioner' can be applied to anyone over 60 I think.....or is it 65?

They can still be savvy at that age. It's the people in their 80s and 90s that worry me in all this.
Currently women can claim their State pension at sixty, for men it's sixty five.

These are the flower power generation pensioners. It's quite patronising to think they are too dodery, and daft, to use modern banking facilities, such as chip 'n' pin.

cashman 17-03-2008 22:58
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 547536)
Currently women can claim their State pension at sixty, for men it's sixty five.

These are the flower power generation pensioners. It's quite patronising to think they are too dodery, and daft, to use modern banking facilities, such as chip 'n' pin.
i can and do use chip n pin when i have no other choice,its not summat i like though.

garinda 17-03-2008 22:58
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 547535)
well i dont know if they are collecting pensions or not,dont ask em,the point being there is always some in using the post office for whatever reason.
Sounds like they are there for social reasons, mainly to chat to you.

I'm glad I'm not at the back of the queue, waiting to fill in a form for a missing parcel.:D

cashman 17-03-2008 23:00
Re: Post Office Closures
 
thats crass (a word you used recently) they are in the queue to be served n you damn well know it.

garinda 17-03-2008 23:04
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 547539)
thats crass (a word you used recently) they are in the queue to be served n you damn well know it.
Cashy, I do see the need for Post Offices, and I do know the one in Ossy is well used, especially now there is only one left in the centre of the town.

What I do object to is public money being used to prop up those that aren't as well used, are unprofitable, and are funded like something out of the state run, old eastern European block.

Lilly 17-03-2008 23:04
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 547536)
Currently women can claim their State pension at sixty, for men it's sixty five.

These are the flower power generation pensioners. It's quite patronising to think they are too dodery, and daft, to use modern banking facilities, such as chip 'n' pin.

That's exactly why I pointed out that I wasn't suggesting that chip and pin is too befuddling for people in their sixties. I didn't mean to patronise anyone. Katex, Margaret and Cashman are in their sixties aren't they?

They are not old at all.
I would never suggest that they are too doddery for chip and pin. Far from it. I was talking about people much older, people in their 80s and 90s.

Royboy39 17-03-2008 23:05
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 547523)
Oh I forgot, it's Mrs Royboy who still bounces cheques.
Still the same old ginger.
Mrs Royboy has more money than you will ever dream of.
We don't have ducks and geese in view but we do have the Med in view when we get up in the morning.
You can be a bitch sometimes.
I remember the quote "People love me"
Not me I'm afraid

garinda 17-03-2008 23:08
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royboy39 (Post 547546)
Mrs Royboy has more money than you will ever dream of.
..and yet you still settled for Alicante, or as I prefer to call it, Morecambe with parasols.

Royboy39 17-03-2008 23:09
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 547547)
..and yet you still settled for Alicante, or as I prefer to call it, Morecambe with parasols.
Dream on sunshine :tongueout

andrewb 18-03-2008 08:20
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 547544)
Cashy, I do see the need for Post Offices, and I do know the one in Ossy is well used, especially now there is only one left in the centre of the town.

What I do object to is public money being used to prop up those that aren't as well used, are unprofitable, and are funded like something out of the state run, old eastern European block.

The health service is far from profitable, should we get rid of that too? How about disability benefits, they're not profitable for me, but I damn well understand the state NEEDS to play its role there because it's not going to be undertaken by the private sector. Just like I believe we should keep the post office because it's not profitable but necessary.

For less than £2 a year I'm happy to keep the service open since so many people depend on it.

Neil 18-03-2008 08:23
Re: Post Office Closures
 
There are many things I would like improving within the Post Office. What about opening the collection office at sensible times? What use is it when it closes at 1:30pm?

jaysay 18-03-2008 09:25
Re: Post Office Closures
 
When the government didn't renew the contract with the post office to pay benefits by payment book, they tried to get evrybody to have enefits payed straight into bank accouts, I settled for a post office card account as I wanted to keep the Ossy Town Hall office open, but it still closed. I now have my money paid into my bank, and there is a reason. I had a probem and had to ring the PO help line, as usuall I was my polite little unassuming self:rolleyes:.I asked a question but because I couldent remember my pass word off hand (this was two years after I opened the account)the young lady got rather obknoxiously off hand, so I let her carry on for a little while before I interrupted her, then I just said excuss me miss but I only opened this account in order to try and save post offices closures and YOUR FLAMING JOB, you stroppy cow(learnt that of PB)I will be transfering my payment to my bank account the minute I finish this call, stoned silence on the other end of the line, then an attempt at an apology, to late was the cry and hung up. But it is a sham the post ofices are closing and if Greg thinks anything about his constituents he will oppose the Government, but I'm not holding my breathe

cashman 18-03-2008 09:32
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil (Post 547602)
There are many things I would like improving within the Post Office. What about opening the collection office at sensible times? What use is it when it closes at 1:30pm?
that cannot even be discussed wi em if theve already closed em.:confused:

Wynonie Harris 18-03-2008 09:43
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 547618)
stoned silence on the other end of the line
No wonder they're closing down if that's what they get up to at work! :D

garinda 18-03-2008 09:48
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr (Post 547600)
The health service is far from profitable, should we get rid of that too? How about disability benefits, they're not profitable for me, but I damn well understand the state NEEDS to play its role there because it's not going to be undertaken by the private sector. Just like I believe we should keep the post office because it's not profitable but necessary.

For less than £2 a year I'm happy to keep the service open since so many people depend on it.
Theres a difference between the N.H.S. and the Post Office, the main one being that you can buy a Post Office, and if it's unprofitable, currently have it shored up, using tax payers money. There aren't many other businesses in the U.K. that that applies to.

As a student I doubt you've personally paid enough tax to comment on social benefits not being profitable to 'you'.

andrewb 18-03-2008 10:36
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 547627)
Theres a difference between the N.H.S. and the Post Office, the main one being that you can buy a Post Office, and if it's unprofitable, currently have it shored up, using tax payers money. There aren't many other businesses in the U.K. that that applies to.

As a student I doubt you've personally paid enough tax to comment on social benefits not being profitable to 'you'.
The NHS could be privatised, but of course we don't want that because the service would suffer in terms of long-term diseases like you described in another thread. The NHS is necessary and the post office is necessary. No the post office doesn't save lives, but it is used. If a post office is used by 1 person a day, then fine, close it, but if its being used a lot like many are, and simply making a loss because it costs a lot to run, then we should keep it. As I understand it a particular post office, longshoot, has 800 people petitioning to keep it. Certainly worth keeping, but threatened with closure.

I'm calling for a suspension, which means the issue can be looked at again, properly, rather than closing popular post offices with good business models.

Greg Pope 18-03-2008 10:46
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Tomorrow's vote is not really about keeping post offices open. It is an opposition day (when the opposition get to choose the topic) and the Tories will table a motion just saying keep post offices open - it will not say how this should be funded or done, it is simply designed to try and embarrass Labour MPs so they can say that we voted against a motion to keep post offices open. It is childish politics although, to be fair, it is exactly what we did when we were in opposition.

There are around 13,500 post offices in the UK of which around 9,000 lose money, currently at the rate of around half a million pounds a day. I'm opposed to the scale of the closure programme (nationally around 2,500 are due to close of which 5 are in Hyndburn) but we do need to face up to the the twin difficulties of finding people to run them (most closures are happening with the agreement of the postmaster) and funding them at a time when fewer and fewer people are using them. To give one example, I renewed my car tax online last week instead of using a post office, and millions of other people will do similarly.

garinda 18-03-2008 10:46
Re: Post Office Closures
 
As stated earlier, way back in the thread, I do think it is sad that many Post Offices have closed, and many more may face closure in the future.

Unfortunately many people's habits have changed for ever, just as many people now find it easier to do a weekly shop at a supermarket, than patronise their local high street shops. Sad, but a fact.

How underused, and unprofitable, would a Post Office have to be, before it's closure was deemed acceptable?

Again, as stated earlier, let us not forget that these Post Offices are privately owned concerns, and I can't think of many other private businesses that receive tax payer's money to help keep them afloat.

andrewb 18-03-2008 10:59
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Pope (Post 547646)
Tomorrow's vote is not really about keeping post offices open. It is an opposition day (when the opposition get to choose the topic) and the Tories will table a motion just saying keep post offices open - it will not say how this should be funded or done, it is simply designed to try and embarrass Labour MPs so they can say that we voted against a motion to keep post offices open. It is childish politics although, to be fair, it is exactly what we did when we were in opposition.

There are around 13,500 post offices in the UK of which around 9,000 lose money, currently at the rate of around half a million pounds a day. I'm opposed to the scale of the closure programme (nationally around 2,500 are due to close of which 5 are in Hyndburn) but we do need to face up to the the twin difficulties of finding people to run them (most closures are happening with the agreement of the postmaster) and funding them at a time when fewer and fewer people are using them. To give one example, I renewed my car tax online last week instead of using a post office, and millions of other people will do similarly.
Can we ask how you're voting? Surely doing something, suspending and having a rethink is better than nothing.

Is it also true that the postmasters are getting paid 60 thousand pound payoffs if they agree to closure. I think this is wrong.

jaysay 18-03-2008 11:09
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Pope (Post 547646)
Tomorrow's vote is not really about keeping post offices open. It is an opposition day (when the opposition get to choose the topic) and the Tories will table a motion just saying keep post offices open - it will not say how this should be funded or done, it is simply designed to try and embarrass Labour MPs so they can say that we voted against a motion to keep post offices open. It is childish politics although, to be fair, it is exactly what we did when we were in opposition.

There are around 13,500 post offices in the UK of which around 9,000 lose money, currently at the rate of around half a million pounds a day. I'm opposed to the scale of the closure programme (nationally around 2,500 are due to close of which 5 are in Hyndburn) but we do need to face up to the the twin difficulties of finding people to run them (most closures are happening with the agreement of the postmaster) and funding them at a time when fewer and fewer people are using them. To give one example, I renewed my car tax online last week instead of using a post office, and millions of other people will do similarly.
Fare play Greg for explaining what is happening tomorrow in the big house and that it is a ploy used by all parties in opposition as you quite rightly put, that is politics. Even though to my way of thinking its not really about making a profit its about providing a service, not so much for people up to our age group by that I mean early sixties (I know you've a long way to go to reach that) its the people who are in their 70s and 80s that I am concerned about, people who are set in their ways and are unable to get about as well as they once could, we do tend to forget about these people who, in the past have given so much and are to easily written and that should be off concern to all politicians whether Red Blue or Yellow. Oh by the way I like the colour of your text, nice choice:D

andrewb 18-03-2008 11:09
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Too late to edit my post but the Conservatives have suggested ways to turn post offices around:

* Give sub-Post Offices more freedom to offer a wider range of business services.
* Push for more Post Offices to be "One Stop Shops" – trained staff could then advise on a range of matters including tax returns, pension entitlements, the opening hours of local pharmacies, how to apply for a disabled parking badge etc.
* Encourage local Councils to open "Council Counters" in local branches.
* Allow the Post Office to work with carriers other than the Royal Mail.
* Prevent the Royal Mail taking business away from sub-Post Offices by under cutting the prices they can charge for postage.

Tealeaf 18-03-2008 11:11
Re: Post Office Closures
 
There are a large number of sub-post offices which would be financially viable without the operating grant and a number of the rural ones have stated that they intend to carry on trading - selling groceries, sweets etc. What is disgusting is that the post office is now attempting to impose legal restraint on the services that these non-post offices can now offer if the nearest post office has the same facilities. So, far instance, they cannot offer the National Lottery, parcel alternatives to Royal Mail or utility payments. So much for competition - but what do you expect from this shambles of a government?

katex 18-03-2008 11:18
Re: Post Office Closures
 
I rather like the suggestion of a mobile Post Office which calls on areas, that will shortly be bereft of a local one, for 1 day a week for 8 hours. Not much 1 day you might say, but the very elderly are creatures of habit, and used to collecting their pension on a certain day .. or one day in the month.

Could possibly do 2 stops in one area e.g. Hapton (which is all on a hill) and would be easier for people to get to.

g jones 18-03-2008 15:42
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Everyone has contributed to the closure of Post Offices. I don't particularly agree with childish politics in opposition, whether that be us or the Tories this time.

The Post Office franchise was eroded from the early 80's with Governments removing services and banks competing for business. Stamps sold at Petrol Stations and other outlets. Maggie called it choice, competition and free enterprise. I think Gordon calls it the same. Pensions, TV Licences, Car Tax. The internet significantly too. And people want public bodies/companies to be more efficient, find savings, cut out waste.

We have followed all these to the detriment of the local sub Post Office. To the Tories I would say, be careful what you wish for... free enterprise has no sympathy for social enterprise. That irony, seeing Clr Britcliffe run a particularly nauseating campaign makes people turn against him.

Greg makes a good point too. Who is going to run these sub Post Office's? The sub post masters and mistresses have opted not stay open, but take the payola and do one. Which one of the protestors out there is willing to take on a risky business themself?

In the end the public have used freedom to choose to choose alternative providers of services. This is not my view. I think there could have been more thought, a better compromise, some subsidy. Tory Essex County Council are going to subsidise and save some Post Office's. Politically ironic of course.

Even here in Hyndburn The Council Policy is to promote D/D all times and reduce to payments at Post Office's. 60,000-80,000 Council Tax transactions per year disappear from Post Offices as a direct result of Council Policies. In December there were just 3,500 Council Tax transactions at local Post Offices. 23% down from well over over 50% a few years ago.

Clr Britcliffe's own policy is encourage people to pay Council Tax and Housing Rent via D/D. This policy is supported by a barrage of literature that gets sent out with
• Council Tax
• and Council Tax reminders if they don't get you first time
• and we also use D/D notice prompts
• we try always to remind Counter Callers of the benefits of DD
• we send out Leaflets and place them in prominent positions
• and we do not at any time promote the Payment Card Scheme at PO's
• refusing to put Giro payment forms at the foot of bills

The costs and savings to the Council are as follows
Post Office (and some retail outlets) Card Scheme; 51p per card transaction + £1.30 per card
Direct Debit 10p
Bank Giro £1.80.

It's amazing to see local Tories protesting with placards when their policies have contributed to the closures. (Obviously we all know now as Clr Britcliffe accidently sent a Tory email out to everyone saying how national issues at the local elections would gain them an advantage over Labour - it was followed by an apologetic one 5 minutes later!)

Since leaving the Council, Hyndburn Homes has issued every tenant with a Post Office Payment Card.

I did try and put some suggestions forward but was told to shut up in full council and barred from putting them forward. One was the Big Card Scheme which amalgamates several payments. I sopke with Hyndburn Homes and they liked the idea as do our officers and there is potential to extend the scheme.

Post Office's Services in other buildings, maybe Council subsidy like Essex County Council and importantly. A clear focus on which Post Office's wish to stay open as some actually want take the Post Office payoff and close. So let's save the one's that can be best saved. That would help.

Working together is another. Oak Lea cash machine was saved because Labour and Tories worked together, even though the Post Office was closed.

andrewb 18-03-2008 20:04
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by g jones (Post 547758)
Everyone has contributed to the closure of Post Offices. I don't particularly agree with childish politics in opposition, whether that be us or the Tories this time.

The Post Office franchise was eroded from the early 80's with Governments removing services and banks competing for business. Stamps sold at Petrol Stations and other outlets. Maggie called it choice, competition and free enterprise. I think Gordon calls it the same. Pensions, TV Licences, Car Tax. The internet significantly too. And people want public bodies/companies to be more efficient, find savings, cut out waste.

We have followed all these to the detriment of the local sub Post Office. To the Tories I would say, be careful what you wish for... free enterprise has no sympathy for social enterprise. That irony, seeing Clr Britcliffe run a particularly nauseating campaign makes people turn against him.

Greg makes a good point too. Who is going to run these sub Post Office's? The sub post masters and mistresses have opted not stay open, but take the payola and do one. Which one of the protestors out there is willing to take on a risky business themself?

In the end the public have used freedom to choose to choose alternative providers of services. This is not my view. I think there could have been more thought, a better compromise, some subsidy. Tory Essex County Council are going to subsidise and save some Post Office's. Politically ironic of course.

Even here in Hyndburn The Council Policy is to promote D/D all times and reduce to payments at Post Office's. 60,000-80,000 Council Tax transactions per year disappear from Post Offices as a direct result of Council Policies. In December there were just 3,500 Council Tax transactions at local Post Offices. 23% down from well over over 50% a few years ago.

Clr Britcliffe's own policy is encourage people to pay Council Tax and Housing Rent via D/D. This policy is supported by a barrage of literature that gets sent out with
• Council Tax
• and Council Tax reminders if they don't get you first time
• and we also use D/D notice prompts
• we try always to remind Counter Callers of the benefits of DD
• we send out Leaflets and place them in prominent positions
• and we do not at any time promote the Payment Card Scheme at PO's
• refusing to put Giro payment forms at the foot of bills

The costs and savings to the Council are as follows
Post Office (and some retail outlets) Card Scheme; 51p per card transaction + £1.30 per card
Direct Debit 10p
Bank Giro £1.80.

It's amazing to see local Tories protesting with placards when their policies have contributed to the closures. (Obviously we all know now as Clr Britcliffe accidently sent a Tory email out to everyone saying how national issues at the local elections would gain them an advantage over Labour - it was followed by an apologetic one 5 minutes later!)

Since leaving the Council, Hyndburn Homes has issued every tenant with a Post Office Payment Card.

I did try and put some suggestions forward but was told to shut up in full council and barred from putting them forward. One was the Big Card Scheme which amalgamates several payments. I sopke with Hyndburn Homes and they liked the idea as do our officers and there is potential to extend the scheme.

Post Office's Services in other buildings, maybe Council subsidy like Essex County Council and importantly. A clear focus on which Post Office's wish to stay open as some actually want take the Post Office payoff and close. So let's save the one's that can be best saved. That would help.

Working together is another. Oak Lea cash machine was saved because Labour and Tories worked together, even though the Post Office was closed.
So when Labour are attacked because they're voting in parliament for closures and not voting for suspending closures for review, we're childish, but when you attack what the Tories did 30 years ago it's absolutely fine? Give me a break, the hypocracy is unreal.

I get a feeling head office has told Labour to combat any criticisms of what they're doing nationally and locally by accusing the opposition of being childish. Real good tactic!

I'm all for working together but you're really not helping it.

Bonnyboy 18-03-2008 21:57
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Dunno if a link was posted before in this thread, Jack Straw seems to like his local Post Office even a nice piccy of him holding a poster :rolleyes:

Royboy39 18-03-2008 22:00
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by katex (Post 547658)
I rather like the suggestion of a mobile Post Office which calls on areas, that will shortly be bereft of a local one, for 1 day a week for 8 hours. Not much 1 day you might say, but the very elderly are creatures of habit, and used to collecting their pension on a certain day .. or one day in the month.

Could possibly do 2 stops in one area e.g. Hapton (which is all on a hill) and would be easier for people to get to.
That would give licence to the 'Handslapped minority' with criminal tendencies to target the mobile and put the staff of this unfortunate venture at considerable risk unless they were protected by a police officer which would make this idea prohibitive in the extreme?
Why dont the government look after their own? subsidise if at all possible to keep the network of social amenities intact.
I would think that is a better idea than paying MP's huge expense bills to carry out crazy schemes to score noddy points.
I understand rightly or wrongly that it cost's more to run the European Parliament for one month than it would cost to subsidise the post office for five years...........where do we go from here.......what's next to go...not much left............Banks in trouble......Pound in trouble...........Brown having to borrow billions of pounds to keep the country afloat......Shares I have no trouble with...You takes a gamble that's your affair.....If you back a horse and it comes second you loose your money.
Sorry for this diatribe but let's get real........Maybe it wont reflect in Ossy
in the near future....The price of petrol is a start....where do we go from here?

Bonnyboy 18-03-2008 22:07
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royboy39 (Post 548118)
That would give licence to the 'Handslapped minority' with criminal tendencies to target the mobile and put the staff of this unfortunate venture at considerable risk unless they were protected by a police officer which would make this idea prohibitive in the extreme?
Why dont the government look after their own? subsidise if at all possible to keep the network of social amenities intact.
I would think that is a better idea than paying MP's huge expense bills to carry out crazy schemes to score noddy points.
I understand rightly or wrongly that it cost's more to run the European Parliament for one month than it would cost to subsidise the post office for five years...........where do we go from here.......what's next to go...not much left............Banks in trouble......Pound in trouble...........Brown having to borrow billions of pounds to keep the country afloat......Shares I have no trouble with...You takes a gamble that's your affair.....If you back a horse and it comes second you loose your money.
Sorry for this diatribe but let's get real........Maybe it wont reflect in Ossy
in the near future....The price of petrol is a start....where do we go from here?
Pretty much agree with all of that ;)

katex 18-03-2008 22:14
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royboy39 (Post 548118)
That would give licence to the 'Handslapped minority' with criminal tendencies to target the mobile and put the staff of this unfortunate venture at considerable risk unless they were protected by a police officer which would make this idea prohibitive in the extreme?
Well, am not commenting on the rest of your 'diatribe' Royboy39, but sub-Post Offices have always been a main target for criminal tendencies.. as our communtiy learnt to their cost in Baxenden. Still feel would be financially viable to have security on board, and en route like the Post Office vans with the sticker on the back that states "Police cars are following this van" (and do).

blazey 19-03-2008 05:26
Re: Post Office Closures
 
I voted no, if they aren't making profit then they aren't being used by enough people.

The services that PO's provide have been taken on by other businesses or institutions mainly, and so the use of PO's has decreased.

A Post Office should be available within a certain radius in my opinion accessible by public transport, NOT on foot. With the correct placement of PO's there should be no reason for people to struggle to access the PO and hopefully it would also get rid of the smaller ones that are only being used by a few individuals.

Also, there would not necessarily need to be a major loss in jobs as bigger post offices located this way would be used by more people, and so the staff coul just be transferred to these in most cases. Obviously there will be a few losses but effectiveness in terms of service and financially is the ideal outcome, not just service. We can't afford to be throwing money away and spending money on revival of a fallen business.

But I know Cyfr hates this because he shouted at me earlier, and I can't keep coming back on this argument because as I have already said to him, I just don't really care enough about the PO.

So that's my worth on the subject.

jambutty 19-03-2008 12:19
Re: Post Office Closures
 
I’ve tried to look at this issue from both sides of the coin and each side has a valid case to put.

In a nutshell some 2,500 sub post offices are subsidised by the taxpayer or in other words they are losing money. With the best will in the world you cannot run a business at a loss for long. Sooner or later the crunch has to come. In this money-orientated society that crunch has arrived for some 2,500 post offices.

Sub post offices, especially in rural areas, are a real asset to the elderly for pensions and bill paying. But being elderly they are closer to life’s end than the younger people and thus will drop out of the equation in time.

Arguments against the closures have been put forward to suggest that the elderly may not have a bank account so getting their pensions paid into their bank account and paying bills by DD are not possible. Pensioners cannot remember PIN numbers easily. Nonsense! I’m close to 71 and I can remember my PIN numbers. In any case those few who genuinely cannot remember PIN’s and other things are likely to have a carer who will collect their pension etc on their behalf.

My local post office at Scotland Bank Terrace in Darwen closed about two years ago, I think it was, and now I have to use the main post office in the town centre to collect my pension and pay certain bills. But it is no hardship to travel that extra half mile or so. But then I do have a car. Others without their own transport would withdraw their pension and then catch a bus into town to do some shopping. Instead of walking to the local post office and then catching a bus to town to do some shopping, they now catch a bus from near home. So what is the difference?

So on balance it is right to close certain sub post offices if they are not viable providing that in doing so the next nearest post office is not a long distance away and is on a bus route.

Rural post offices deserve special treatment even it I means running them at a loss.

g jones 19-03-2008 15:28
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr (Post 547991)
So when Labour are attacked because they're voting in parliament for closures and not voting for suspending closures for review, we're childish, but when you attack what the Tories did 30 years ago it's absolutely fine? Give me a break, the hypocracy is unreal.

I get a feeling head office has told Labour to combat any criticisms of what they're doing nationally and locally by accusing the opposition of being childish. Real good tactic!

I'm all for working together but you're really not helping it.
I think this argument makes no sense. Labour may have attacked the Tories 30 years ago but 150 years ago Tories sent children up chimney and down coal mines. I don't believe the vast majority of Tories would subscribe to that now. I think you even accept now the minimum wage was right after saying it was wrong. That's life. It's about now and the future... the past we can only learn lessons from.

I would like to think every time I go into a meeting I won't meet people putting across your line of thinking Cyfr, stuck in the old Tory/Labour past. That people will judge an issue on it's merits.

Everyone has contributed to the Post Office closures. Councils, Governments and shoppers. The ONLY organisation I can think of that has reversed this policy locally is Hyndburn Homes issuing all tenants with PO payment cards.

The only hyprocites are Conservatives waving placards. Not because they started the ball rolling in the 80's but because they have made the ball of Post Office closure's roll even faster in Hyndburn in the last few years. And the secret plots and emails, the lack of any care as to what is actually happening and what can be saved.

The Conservatives have behaved irresponsibly over this and I would be delighted to stand on a orange crate with Clr Britcliffe outside the town hall and have an open public debate... The public deserve to know the truth not spin and secret emails from Tory Central Office.

g jones 19-03-2008 15:37
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambutty (Post 548322)
I’ve tried to look at this issue from both sides of the coin and each side has a valid case to put.

In a nutshell some 2,500 sub post offices are subsidised by the taxpayer or in other words they are losing money. With the best will in the world you cannot run a business at a loss for long. Sooner or later the crunch has to come. In this money-orientated society that crunch has arrived for some 2,500 post offices.

Sub post offices, especially in rural areas, are a real asset to the elderly for pensions and bill paying. But being elderly they are closer to life’s end than the younger people and thus will drop out of the equation in time.

Arguments against the closures have been put forward to suggest that the elderly may not have a bank account so getting their pensions paid into their bank account and paying bills by DD are not possible. Pensioners cannot remember PIN numbers easily. Nonsense! I’m close to 71 and I can remember my PIN numbers. In any case those few who genuinely cannot remember PIN’s and other things are likely to have a carer who will collect their pension etc on their behalf.

My local post office at Scotland Bank Terrace in Darwen closed about two years ago, I think it was, and now I have to use the main post office in the town centre to collect my pension and pay certain bills. But it is no hardship to travel that extra half mile or so. But then I do have a car. Others without their own transport would withdraw their pension and then catch a bus into town to do some shopping. Instead of walking to the local post office and then catching a bus to town to do some shopping, they now catch a bus from near home. So what is the difference?

So on balance it is right to close certain sub post offices if they are not viable providing that in doing so the next nearest post office is not a long distance away and is on a bus route.

Rural post offices deserve special treatment even it I means running them at a loss.
An excellent post.

I would veer on the side of subsidy but accept the argument. We have lost 80-90% of corner shops in Peel over 30-40 years so Post Office's were clearly going to come under similar economic pressure outside of the PO franchise business.

The PO on Av Parade, whilst within a mile, is heavily used. I suppose the market will say, 'use it or lose it'.

andrewb 19-03-2008 16:17
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by g jones (Post 548388)
I think this argument makes no sense. Labour may have attacked the Tories 30 years ago but 150 years ago Tories sent children up chimney and down coal mines. I don't believe the vast majority of Tories would subscribe to that now. I think you even accept now the minimum wage was right after saying it was wrong. That's life. It's about now and the future... the past we can only learn lessons from.

I would like to think every time I go into a meeting I won't meet people putting across your line of thinking Cyfr, stuck in the old Tory/Labour past. That people will judge an issue on it's merits.

Everyone has contributed to the Post Office closures. Councils, Governments and shoppers. The ONLY organisation I can think of that has reversed this policy locally is Hyndburn Homes issuing all tenants with PO payment cards.

The only hyprocites are Conservatives waving placards. Not because they started the ball rolling in the 80's but because they have made the ball of Post Office closure's roll even faster in Hyndburn in the last few years. And the secret plots and emails, the lack of any care as to what is actually happening and what can be saved.

The Conservatives have behaved irresponsibly over this and I would be delighted to stand on a orange crate with Clr Britcliffe outside the town hall and have an open public debate... The public deserve to know the truth not spin and secret emails from Tory Central Office.


You blame the Tories in the 80's in your first post on page 6, so I respond telling you to think about the future, what's happening now, the hypocrisy in parliament of Labour MP's voting for closures but then campaigning locally for offices to stay open, rather than constantly referring to the Thatcher years as Labour too often blame for everything, even when they've been in power for 11 years.

You then take my argument, you quite frankly plagiarise it and make it your own! Trying to blame me for talking too much about the past and not the present. How ridiculous! I hope the voters can see you for who you are.

This is exactly why people are so apathetic about politics, you are exactly the reason people are so turned off and why voter turnout is so low now.

Hypocritical, past your sell by date, a spin politician twisting peoples words to make yourself look good in any situation. We need a new politics, we need to work together, we need to be transparent and open, not treating the voters like idiots, people can see you're completely twisting my argument to your own benefit, we might have fallen for it in 1997 but no more!

jaysay 19-03-2008 16:43
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr (Post 548417)
You blame the Tories in the 80's in your first post on page 6, so I respond telling you to think about the future, what's happening now, the hypocrisy in parliament of Labour MP's voting for closures but then campaigning locally for offices to stay open, rather than constantly referring to the Thatcher years as Labour too often blame for everything, even when they've been in power for 11 years.

You then take my argument, you quite frankly plagiarise it and make it your own! Trying to blame me for talking too much about the past and not the present. How ridiculous! I hope the voters can see you for who you are.

This is exactly why people are so apathetic about politics, you are exactly the reason people are so turned off and why voter turnout is so low now.

Hypocritical, past your sell by date, a spin politician twisting peoples words to make yourself look good in any situation. We need a new politics, we need to work together, we need to be transparent and open, not treating the voters like idiots, people can see you're completely twisting my argument to your own benefit, we might have fallen for it in 1997 but no more!
Well Cyfr your 42 years younger than me and I couldn't have put it better myself, even when I was in my prime

shakermaker 19-03-2008 16:54
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr (Post 548417)
we might have fallen for it in 1997 but no more!
...and 2001
...and 2005
:)

Good post Cyfr, even if it is a tad sensationalised towards the end. (I know it's just all that political angst so I'll let you off ;):D)

Can't believe I'm agreeing with a bloody Tory. Sort it out Mr Jones.

Greg? Greeeeeegggg!!??

garinda 19-03-2008 17:51
Re: Post Office Closures
 
The cost to us, the tax payers, of funding unprofitable Post Offices, is £4 million pounds per day.

How long is that sustainable, and how much higher would that figure have to increase, as more and more people chose to do their business elsewhere, before a line is drawn?

I'd much rather see that daily four million pounds invested in education, health, or community centres, if all people want is somewhere to meet their neighbours.

The only other comparison I can think of, where private, unprofitable businesses, recieve such generous subsidies, are the funds available to farmers via the E.E.C., but of course which is ultimately funded by the tax payer. A practice I also strongly disagree with.

g jones 19-03-2008 18:09
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr (Post 548417)
You blame the Tories in the 80's in your first post on page 6, so I respond telling you to think about the future, what's happening now, the hypocrisy in parliament of Labour MP's voting for closures but then campaigning locally for offices to stay open, rather than constantly referring to the Thatcher years as Labour too often blame for everything, even when they've been in power for 11 years.

You then take my argument, you quite frankly plagiarise it and make it your own! Trying to blame me for talking too much about the past and not the present. How ridiculous! I hope the voters can see you for who you are.

This is exactly why people are so apathetic about politics, you are exactly the reason people are so turned off and why voter turnout is so low now.

Hypocritical, past your sell by date, a spin politician twisting peoples words to make yourself look good in any situation. We need a new politics, we need to work together, we need to be transparent and open, not treating the voters like idiots, people can see you're completely twisting my argument to your own benefit, we might have fallen for it in 1997 but no more!
You seemed to have stopped talking about the issues and started a slur campaign. And then you switch to a rallying call for honesty and truth. In pointing out the Tories on pg 6 I also pointed out Labour, so please don's attempt to con the readers by not expressing what was written in a fair way.

I don't agree with national politicians batting for both teams. Labour politicians in this case and more often than not many cases. eg.Hazel Blears on hospitals. I was embarrassed by their actions. What you say about me is just ridiculous, insulting and demeaning.

I joined the Council because I was fed up with people always trying to pull the wool over ordinary people, Labour and Tory. That was my motivation. Nothing has changed.

I accept Conservatives like your good self are there to do everything possible to shoot me down. It's what old school politics is about. Ignore the issues and throw mud.

I agree with Cameron on sleazy politics. But Blair said the same! I think I am one of the few that believe Cameron actually does mean it, I never thought Blair did, and I admire him for that. If we have a Conservative Government, I hope Cameron's legacy is that he cleaned up politics.

The real world is events beyond your control. Such as Derek Conway paying family members. Cameron dealt with it well. I didn't hold it over Cameron personally and I think to a large extent, you shouldn't hold me to account so cyncially when it has little to do with me in reality.

Hyndburn politics is morally corrupt. Except this time it's coming from the blue corner. I don't care about your view on this as it's an issue of personal moral principle, and something that got me into politics in the beginning. We have to clean Hyndburn politics up and make sure this corruption never happens again.

I guess your on Britcliffe's team and we'll just have to disagree.

andrewb 19-03-2008 19:30
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by g jones (Post 548484)
You seemed to have stopped talking about the issues and started a slur campaign. And then you switch to a rallying call for honesty and truth. In pointing out the Tories on pg 6 I also pointed out Labour, so please don's attempt to con the readers by not expressing what was written in a fair way.

I don't agree with national politicians batting for both teams. Labour politicians in this case and more often than not many cases. eg.Hazel Blears on hospitals. I was embarrassed by their actions. What you say about me is just ridiculous, insulting and demeaning.

I joined the Council because I was fed up with people always trying to pull the wool over ordinary people, Labour and Tory. That was my motivation. Nothing has changed.

I accept Conservatives like your good self are there to do everything possible to shoot me down. It's what old school politics is about. Ignore the issues and throw mud.

I agree with Cameron on sleazy politics. But Blair said the same! I think I am one of the few that believe Cameron actually does mean it, I never thought Blair did, and I admire him for that. If we have a Conservative Government, I hope Cameron's legacy is that he cleaned up politics.

The real world is events beyond your control. Such as Derek Conway paying family members. Cameron dealt with it well. I didn't hold it over Cameron personally and I think to a large extent, you shouldn't hold me to account so cyncially when it has little to do with me in reality.

Hyndburn politics is morally corrupt. Except this time it's coming from the blue corner. I don't care about your view on this as it's an issue of personal moral principle, and something that got me into politics in the beginning. We have to clean Hyndburn politics up and make sure this corruption never happens again.

I guess your on Britcliffe's team and we'll just have to disagree.
It's interesting you would accuse me of mounting a slur campaign and in the same breath call me an “old school politician”, implying the only reason I disagree with you is party affiliation. Attacking you for your irrelevant comments about any party's past actions is not a slur – it's an important point because you're misleading people.

I've been watching the post office debate in parliament all day. Was very interesting. In the end the opposition lost the vote by only 20. This means the post office closures will be going ahead because the Conservatives and Liberals didn't have enough votes.

I congratulate the Labour MP's who rebelled and voted to save the post offices. I don't have a list now but I know Gordon Prentice the Pendle Labour MP is one of them.

WalkOnBRFC 19-03-2008 19:55
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr (Post 548417)
You blame the Tories in the 80's in your first post on page 6, so I respond telling you to think about the future, what's happening now, the hypocrisy in parliament of Labour MP's voting for closures but then campaigning locally for offices to stay open, rather than constantly referring to the Thatcher years as Labour too often blame for everything, even when they've been in power for 11 years.

You then take my argument, you quite frankly plagiarise it and make it your own! Trying to blame me for talking too much about the past and not the present. How ridiculous! I hope the voters can see you for who you are.

This is exactly why people are so apathetic about politics, you are exactly the reason people are so turned off and why voter turnout is so low now.

Hypocritical, past your sell by date, a spin politician twisting peoples words to make yourself look good in any situation. We need a new politics, we need to work together, we need to be transparent and open, not treating the voters like idiots, people can see you're completely twisting my argument to your own benefit, we might have fallen for it in 1997 but no more!
Their are two sides to every story and which ever team you bat for you are going to look at it differently. I personally don't know why Graham nor any other Local Politician bother to sacrifice to give up the majority of their personal time and effort because they can never do right for doing wrong it seems. It is easy for us all to sit behind a computer screen saying 'this or that should/shouldn't be done'. Actions speak louder than words.. if people are so passionate about their views why don't they attend meetings and voice their opinions publicly or even stand themselves. Maybe they might appreciate what they actually do do and what they sacrifice for others, even if they have to necessarily agree with their opinions. At the end of the day Graham & Peter aren't doing things just for 'the crack of it'. Whether they approach things ruthlessly or softly they are done with the intentions they think will benefit their communities or cause. It also doesn't necessarily mean they agree with issues within National Politics either. Everyone has an opinion but before you criticise and accuse people of trying to pull the wool over your eyes.. try opening them and see the bigger picture. I'll say this to everyone not everything is Blue & Red sometimes it needs to be Purple. Everyone needs to stop fighting each other and work together.

Rosencrantz 19-03-2008 20:23
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Hear hear, I say we start shutting down these useless politics threads, we should all go to the council and talk about it there. I'm sick of people disagreeing with their representatives, we should just sit down and shut up.

onlyme 19-03-2008 20:56
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by g jones (Post 548484)
You seemed to have stopped talking about the issues and started a slur campaign. And then you switch to a rallying call for honesty and truth. In pointing out the Tories on pg 6 I also pointed out Labour, so please don's attempt to con the readers by not expressing what was written in a fair way.

I don't agree with national politicians batting for both teams. Labour politicians in this case and more often than not many cases. eg.Hazel Blears on hospitals. I was embarrassed by their actions. What you say about me is just ridiculous, insulting and demeaning.

I joined the Council because I was fed up with people always trying to pull the wool over ordinary people, Labour and Tory. That was my motivation. Nothing has changed.

I accept Conservatives like your good self are there to do everything possible to shoot me down. It's what old school politics is about. Ignore the issues and throw mud.

I agree with Cameron on sleazy politics. But Blair said the same! I think I am one of the few that believe Cameron actually does mean it, I never thought Blair did, and I admire him for that. If we have a Conservative Government, I hope Cameron's legacy is that he cleaned up politics.

The real world is events beyond your control. Such as Derek Conway paying family members. Cameron dealt with it well. I didn't hold it over Cameron personally and I think to a large extent, you shouldn't hold me to account so cyncially when it has little to do with me in reality.

Hyndburn politics is morally corrupt. Except this time it's coming from the blue corner. I don't care about your view on this as it's an issue of personal moral principle, and something that got me into politics in the beginning. We have to clean Hyndburn politics up and make sure this corruption never happens again.

I guess your on Britcliffe's team and we'll just have to disagree.
Jeez, can you tell you're a politician! Why just use 20 words when you can use 500. Why do people feel the need for long words and statements to try and prove their point.

As soon as a party member can actually cut the cr*p and say what they mean, is the person that gets my vote.

With regards to the actual thread (God forbid we should actually get back on topic), hows about actually running it as you would a private business and not one that has the Government and the publics money to fall back on.

The post office has the largest customer base in the country, a strong brand name and loyalty (to some point) of every person living here. The service is needed, and keeps businesses and the economy of the country alive. So how comes it is failing so badly? Complacency and bad management. An owner of a normal business fights to survive as its their money thats at risk, the Post office service should be run with the same mentality.

g jones 19-03-2008 22:19
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlyme (Post 548630)
Jeez, can you tell you're a politician! Why just use 20 words when you can use 500. Why do people feel the need for long words and statements to try and prove their point.
I presume you mean cut the debate and get to the soundbites! LOL THere's always one:D:D:D:D:D

Loz 19-03-2008 22:35
Re: Post Office Closures
 
I think it's disgraceful that elderly people and disabled people will have to struggle into town for their pension,benefit etc...
It isn't always possible for people to jump on a bus and not everybody has a car.
The closure of so many post offices will affect local communities greatly imo and i think the goverment should be doing more to ensure they survive.
And to the people who reckon the post offices aren't used that often,how come every time i go in there is always a pretty big queue?
We as a country throw money away on many pointless schemes,surely we could find some money to keep them open?
I will gladly pay my taxes if it means saving as many as possible.

blazey 20-03-2008 00:25
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loz (Post 548701)
I think it's disgraceful that elderly people and disabled people will have to struggle into town for their pension,benefit etc...
It isn't always possible for people to jump on a bus and not everybody has a car.
The closure of so many post offices will affect local communities greatly imo and i think the goverment should be doing more to ensure they survive.
And to the people who reckon the post offices aren't used that often,how come every time i go in there is always a pretty big queue?
We as a country throw money away on many pointless schemes,surely we could find some money to keep them open?
I will gladly pay my taxes if it means saving as many as possible.
If it is so difficult for people to get on a bus then can we stop giving them cheaper bus travel then and put money towards people like me who have to spend hundreds of pounds a year on it? That would make many students so much happier. We lost our free travel, all for elderly people to get it, who then complain about the service.

onlyme 20-03-2008 07:22
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazey (Post 548730)
If it is so difficult for people to get on a bus then can we stop giving them cheaper bus travel then and put money towards people like me who have to spend hundreds of pounds a year on it? That would make many students so much happier. We lost our free travel, all for elderly people to get it, who then complain about the service.
cant wait till your gone 80 and trying to get on a crowded bus with a load of boisterous kids. In fact, really cant wait till you grow up, to be brutally honest

onlyme 20-03-2008 07:24
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by g jones (Post 548696)
I presume you mean cut the debate and get to the soundbites! LOL THere's always one:D:D:D:D:D
Theres always one?? Am pretty sure they'll be more than just me that would love to cut the waffle and get to the point.

Lifes too short....long rambling posts make it much shorter

jaysay 20-03-2008 09:15
Re: Post Office Closures
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlyme (Post 548758)
Theres always one?? Am pretty sure they'll be more than just me that would love to cut the waffle and get to the point.

Lifes too short....long rambling posts make it much shorter
Amen to that onlyme, our Graham must get writers cramp every time he comes on here, but then why use 1 word when 30 will do if your trying to baffle people with B*** S***:D


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