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-   -   Sharia Law Rules OK! (https://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f69/sharia-law-rules-ok-42600.html)

shakermaker 18-09-2008 08:35
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazey (Post 632258)
At the end of the day, you are born, you live, then you die. Everyone dies. That is fact. Who really cares what it is you base the middle bit on as long as it results in you being a decent human being? Even the most deluded religious fanatics I know are at least decent human beings so why should I condemn them for that?
When things such as forced marriages, hushed up beatings and scorned upon homosexuality are permissable just because we're striving to be tolerant; something has to be done. The law of the land should be obeyed before any personal interests.

jaysay 18-09-2008 09:05
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 632213)
well i can finds words to disagree= ALIENS My Arse.:D
Jim Royal is alive and kicking:D

blazey 18-09-2008 09:48
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker (Post 632262)
When things such as forced marriages, hushed up beatings and scorned upon homosexuality are permissable just because we're striving to be tolerant; something has to be done. The law of the land should be obeyed before any personal interests.
Domestic violence and the hate of homosexuality is much further spread than just religious teachings, but whilst we're on the topic this country was once dominantly Catholic, a religion well known for it's distaste for homosexuality and unequal treatment of women.

We're also a country with a lovely grim history in the slave trade. How can we stick our noses up at one culture when our own is just as disgusting in comparison?

We claim to be more civilised than many countries and yet I keep hearing the 'when in rome' type arguments and I find it quite annoying because it implies that our way must be the right way, yet I just need to look at the headlines to see wide spread crime, suffering and the failings of the government that was chosen by our so-called 'we know best' nation.

Currently I would say we are in a bit of a national crisis and at times like these when our government is useless and nothing seems to be getting any better, how can we blame people for turning to God as one last desperate bit of hope and faith.

blazey 18-09-2008 09:52
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker (Post 632262)
When things such as forced marriages, hushed up beatings and scorned upon homosexuality are permissable just because we're striving to be tolerant; something has to be done. The law of the land should be obeyed before any personal interests.
And as an after thought, sharia law IS the law of some lands, should these homosexuals and beaten wives native to those places just bow down to the law then?

I'd rather people tried to change the law and I'm not even a fan of revolution. Sometimes change is surprisingly good. And dare I point out that homosexuality was scorned upon as a law of this land once? As was pregnancy outside of marriage? Abortion also?

shakermaker 18-09-2008 10:26
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
The laws of other countries or past laws of this country are irrelevant. We're talking about Sharia Law's place in the British legal system today. Of which it should have no place or stature.

jambutty 18-09-2008 12:25
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
The “When in Rome do as the Romans do” quote, blazey, is made to point out that this is our country and we were here first so any visitors must abide by our laws and not try to enforce their own laws or integrate them into ours.

Look at it this way. If you had a large house and you allowed someone to take up residence in it, how would you feel if they started to try and run your house as they wanted to?

Let us just suppose that your house rule was that the TV had to be switched off at midnight but your ‘guests’ insisted on watching at all hours of the night.

I would imagine that you would soon show them the door.

Gordie 18-09-2008 13:36
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Mani what planet are you living on.I think a good holiday to a muslim country would let you see the bigger picture.I am sure your intentions are good but your very misguided.

MargaretR 18-09-2008 15:13
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordie (Post 632333)
Mani what planet are you living on.I think a good holiday to a muslim country would let you see the bigger picture.I am sure your intentions are good but your very misguided.
You really should get to know people before making a comment like that - he is a muslim as far as I am aware

jaysay 18-09-2008 16:13
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazey (Post 632277)
Domestic violence and the hate of homosexuality is much further spread than just religious teachings, but whilst we're on the topic this country was once dominantly Catholic, a religion well known for it's distaste for homosexuality and unequal treatment of women.

We're also a country with a lovely grim history in the slave trade. How can we stick our noses up at one culture when our own is just as disgusting in comparison?

We claim to be more civilised than many countries and yet I keep hearing the 'when in rome' type arguments and I find it quite annoying because it implies that our way must be the right way, yet I just need to look at the headlines to see wide spread crime, suffering and the failings of the government that was chosen by our so-called 'we know best' nation.

Currently I would say we are in a bit of a national crisis and at times like these when our government is useless and nothing seems to be getting any better, how can we blame people for turning to God as one last desperate bit of hope and faith.
Our way is the right way, in OUR country, and if people want to come here then they abide by our way or sod of back to where they came from, end of you silly little naive girl.

Eric 18-09-2008 16:22
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker (Post 632200)
Err... yeah, a theory with a stupendous amount of hard evidence from millions of years! Hardly 'just a theory' as you infer it to be.
Agreed ... and what a lot of folks forget is that when a scientist uses the word "theory", he means something different from what the lay person understands. For example, we still talk of "atomic theory" and "Avogadro's hypothesis," when they are proven beyond much doubt. To a scientist, "theory" does not mean "educated guess", or "opinion" or "belief"; it means something that has been established and can be challenged by other scientists. Unfortunately for the understanding of most lay people, they still call it a theory even when it assumes the status of "fact."

jambutty 18-09-2008 18:14
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 632355)
Our way is the right way, in OUR country, and if people want to come here then they abide by our way or sod of back to where they came from, end of you silly little naive girl.
Were those last four words really necessary?

But I keep on forgetting, some people on this forum are not allowed to have their own opinions if they happen to be different to others.

blazey 18-09-2008 18:27
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
If things our being done the right way in this country then why are our children stabbing each other over their pocket money, our women being raped by our own, our elderly being mugged and left to die in the street, not to mention the homeless people we ignore.

From what I understand of this issue, as a law student, is that the only sharia law that would be enforced IF ACCEPTED BY BOTH PARTIES, is that of which doesn't breach the Human Rights Act.
I know you are thinking of the Camel's nose, but really, unless something extremely dramatic occurs any time soon then I doubt we are going to see a change in the law that affects a huge portion of the popularity.

Besides, how many of you would like to enforce strict muslim punishment on paedophiles? If that was the suggestion then how many people would ignore the camel's nose and enforce it?

How can I be naive when I am one of the few people on this forum who actually dedicates their life to studying the law and society? I have to spend 40 hrs a week studying these legal problems before I take time to come online and discuss them for fun.

I might be young and indeed I may even be silly at times, and I've no doubts I'm probably smaller than you. But please don't insult my intelligence with your petty comments.

blazey 18-09-2008 18:29
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambutty (Post 632321)
The “When in Rome do as the Romans do” quote, blazey, is made to point out that this is our country and we were here first so any visitors must abide by our laws and not try to enforce their own laws or integrate them into ours.

Look at it this way. If you had a large house and you allowed someone to take up residence in it, how would you feel if they started to try and run your house as they wanted to?

Let us just suppose that your house rule was that the TV had to be switched off at midnight but your ‘guests’ insisted on watching at all hours of the night.

I would imagine that you would soon show them the door.
No such thing as compromise?

jambutty 18-09-2008 18:33
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazey (Post 632403)
No such thing as compromise?
Yes but having it forced onto you isn’t compromise.

cashman 18-09-2008 18:35
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazey (Post 632401)

I might be young and indeed I may even be silly at times, and I've no doubts I'm probably smaller than you. But please don't insult my intelligence with your petty comments.
ya manage that quite easily without us.:rofl38::rofl38::rofl38::rofl38::rofl38:

blazey 18-09-2008 18:36
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambutty (Post 632405)
Yes but having it forced onto you isn’t compromise.
But we have a elected the government who choose to make a compromise on our behalf.

If we don't like it then maybe we should question why we elected such a liberal feckless government in the first place.

I already said I don't know enough about sharia law to know whether it really could or couldn't work, but I wouldn't be so quick to say it is a bad thing on the basis that there are countries that use the law to treat people badly and it's different.

I've seen lots of our own laws treat people badly enough to know better.

MargaretR 18-09-2008 18:49
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
An Englishman's home is his castle BUT......beyond the moat --
some flexibility is needed by both existing residents and newcomers.
When this balance of concessions appears unequal, the drawbridge goes up and boiling oil gets thrown from the battlements.

It would be easier for all of us to be flexible if we adopted the North American native peoples attitude to land ownership, which is-

No-one owns any patch of earth at any time - we just borrow the use of the bit we stand on for the short time we are here.

As global warming and natural disasters make large parts of this planet uninhabitable, mass population migration will happen.

We will need to decide whether to lower or raise the drawbridge.
....and bear in mind that you may be on the wrong side of one

Neil 18-09-2008 19:33
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazey (Post 632277)
We're also a country with a lovely grim history in the slave trade. How can we stick our noses up at one culture when our own is just as disgusting in comparison?
Because we learnt that it was wrong to treat people like that so we moved on. Why would we allow people to treat other as though we were still in the 18th centuary.

Yes our histroy is disgusting, we don't want our future to be as well.

blazey 18-09-2008 19:43
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil (Post 632436)
Because we learnt that it was wrong to treat people like that so we moved on. Why would we allow people to treat other as though we were still in the 18th centuary.

Yes our histroy is disgusting, we don't want our future to be as well.
Our future is worse as far as I can see, otherwise it'd be a really lovely end to the story.

WillowTheWhisp 18-09-2008 22:43
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
My point regarding the theory of evolution is that things which were once taught as fact when I was at school have since been disproven. I was taught that homo sapiens evolved from neanderthal man. Then evidence was found of neanderthal and homo sapiens co-existing. The 'earliest known ancestor' keeps getting knocked off the perch too in favour of a new discovery of an even earlier one. Evolution is far from being on solid ground. There are far too many missing links, not just the mythological 'one'.

cashman 18-09-2008 22:56
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
****** neandrethal, theres links missing on the yates thread n thats only 1960s, so this has no chance.:rofl38::rofl38::rofl38:

Neil 18-09-2008 23:21
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 632523)
My point regarding the theory of evolution is that things which were once taught as fact when I was at school have since been disproven. I was taught that homo sapiens evolved from neanderthal man. Then evidence was found of neanderthal and homo sapiens co-existing. The 'earliest known ancestor' keeps getting knocked off the perch too in favour of a new discovery of an even earlier one. Evolution is far from being on solid ground. There are far too many missing links, not just the mythological 'one'.
We are on a continual learning curve.

You will never convince me though that Sharia law should be allowed in this country.

The more I think out it Sharia law is used in other countries to persecute people. Many things done under Sharia law probably breach human rights.

BERNADETTE 18-09-2008 23:34
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Blinkers take them off seems to be the message here but so many of us seem to be afraid of speaking out. Why should Sharia Law be adopted in this country? No need for it IMO but am open to education from folk who know better!!

blazey 19-09-2008 01:26
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BERNADETTE (Post 632563)
Blinkers take them off seems to be the message here but so many of us seem to be afraid of speaking out. Why should Sharia Law be adopted in this country? No need for it IMO but am open to education from folk who know better!!
You're right, there isn't any need for it, but it shouldn't be simply because it is the law of countries that many people seem to think only breed terrorists.

We should be saying no to it simply because our own law is effective enough, which in my eyes it is.

jambutty 19-09-2008 02:47
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 632523)
My point regarding the theory of evolution is that things which were once taught as fact when I was at school have since been disproven. I was taught that homo sapiens evolved from neanderthal man. Then evidence was found of neanderthal and homo sapiens co-existing. The 'earliest known ancestor' keeps getting knocked off the perch too in favour of a new discovery of an even earlier one. Evolution is far from being on solid ground. There are far too many missing links, not just the mythological 'one'.
Just because Neanderthal man and homo sapiens co-existed for a time doesn’t mean that one didn’t evolve from the other.

Although what evolution has got to do with Sharia Law is beyond me.

jaysay 19-09-2008 09:18
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazey (Post 632572)
You're right, there isn't any need for it, but it shouldn't be simply because it is the law of countries that many people seem to think only breed terrorists.

We should be saying no to it simply because our own law is effective enough, which in my eyes it is.
You only needed this post on this subject blazey, instead of all the woffle you've posted before, your right our laws are enough, which is the point many of us have been trying to make. I do not have a problem people coming to live in this country, but when here abide by our laws and don't try to change our way of doing things

Neil 19-09-2008 11:16
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 632601)
You only needed this post on this subject blazey, instead of all the woffle you've posted before, your right our laws are enough, which is the point many of us have been trying to make. I do not have a problem people coming to live in this country, but when here abide by our laws and don't try to change our way of doing things
Not everyone realises everything straight away.

Maybe this debate has changed her mind on the subject.

jaysay 19-09-2008 16:10
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil (Post 632618)
Not everyone realises everything straight away.

Maybe this debate has changed her mind on the subject.
God knows Neil, because I certainly don't:rolleyes:

Eric 19-09-2008 16:21
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 632523)
My point regarding the theory of evolution is that things which were once taught as fact when I was at school have since been disproven. I was taught that homo sapiens evolved from neanderthal man. Then evidence was found of neanderthal and homo sapiens co-existing. The 'earliest known ancestor' keeps getting knocked off the perch too in favour of a new discovery of an even earlier one. Evolution is far from being on solid ground. There are far too many missing links, not just the mythological 'one'.
But what you are talking about are the fruits of scientific enquiry, built on an incomplete, rather than a flawed theory .... I don't think that anyone believes that what Darwin concluded was the alpha to omega of how life developed and adapted ... it is those who disagree with the theory (the one's who prosecuted Scopes in '28, at the infamous "monkey trial") who come to the simplistic conclusions. The beauty of scientific enquiry is that it never stops discovering the new, and refining, sometimes discarding, that which has already been found. To dismiss the scientific basis for evolution is an ideological rather than a scientific descision.

Neil 19-09-2008 16:39
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 632649)
God knows Neil, because I certainly don't:rolleyes:
Sorry to disappoint you mate but there is no God

WillowTheWhisp 19-09-2008 17:17
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil (Post 632659)
Sorry to disappoint you mate but there is no God
One day you will discover that there is and that we are created in his image.

katex 19-09-2008 17:26
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 632665)
One day you will discover that there is and that we are created in his image.
Sorry Willow, love you to bits and respect your belief in your religion, but this one always bemuses me. Can't possible be in his image, as wouldn't need lungs, heart to pump the blood around and the most important bit .. the p*n*s, etc. Would love this one explained to me .... :confused:

shakermaker 19-09-2008 17:47
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Even if there is a higher power (which I will never be ignorant enough to rule out), it most certainly isn't the cartoon-like Abrahamic God of Christianity and Islam. It should ring alarm bells for believers when more and more sections of scripture are being tossed out as utter guff as we learn more about our world.

Isn’t it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? And worship a make believe gardener?

West Ender 19-09-2008 17:50
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by katex (Post 632668)
Sorry Willow, love you to bits and respect your belief in your religion, but this one always bemuses me. Can't possible be in his image, as wouldn't need lungs, heart to pump the blood around and the most important bit .. the p*n*s, etc. Would love this one explained to me .... :confused:

It all makes perfect sense if you think of "Man" as a group of sophisticated androids and "God" as the superior beings who created them. Erich von Daniken had some odd ideas, perhaps, but..........I've often wondered. ;)

katex 19-09-2008 18:33
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by West Ender (Post 632675)
It all makes perfect sense if you think of "Man" as a group of sophisticated androids and "God" as the superior beings who created them. Erich von Daniken had some odd ideas, perhaps, but..........I've often wondered. ;)
Eeew West Ender, that was above my peabrain, will have to look him up .. :eek:

Irony here is that, Willow does not accept Evolution, however, for a God to be in our image (or vica versa), he's only like that because of climate, local foods, gases we breathe, etc. So must live amongst us somewhere.

We see evolution all the time, e.g. average size of shoe in a woman 40 years ago was size 5, beds in the middle ages were much shorter, back problems will disappear as the years roll by as we get more used to walking upwards.

Every creature on Earth is different due to the environment they live in.

WillowTheWhisp 19-09-2008 20:08
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by katex (Post 632691)

We see evolution all the time, e.g. average size of shoe in a woman 40 years ago was size 5, beds in the middle ages were much shorter, back problems will disappear as the years roll by as we get more used to walking upwards.
Yes we see races of people growing taller or shorter with successive generations due to changes in diet and what have you, but they remain human beings. That's not evolution. What about the ermine? It's just a change of coat. Different breeds of dogs - they are still dogs.

God isn't a cartoon character larger than life with a long white beard sitting on a cloud. He's like a human only perfect.

katex 19-09-2008 21:17
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
You still not have answered my question though Willow, what does God want with our physical attributes, particularly 'you know what' .. has he got a 'sleep buddy' hanging around somewhere ?

WillowTheWhisp 19-09-2008 23:39
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Well we're going to get into deeper water here because my answer would be disputed by other Christians but here goes anyway.

There isn't only a 'Mr. God'. There's a 'Mrs God' as well and we are all their literal children.

Neil 20-09-2008 07:44
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 632853)
Well we're going to get into deeper water here because my answer would be disputed by other Christians but here goes anyway.

There isn't only a 'Mr. God'. There's a 'Mrs God' as well and we are all their literal children.
Go on then I will ask the question. Where does that little gem come from? I don't remember reading that in Gods book.

West Ender 20-09-2008 17:30
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Isn't that why the Mormons have accumulated so many details about ancestry and family trees? Aren't they trying to go right back to biblical times to prove descendency?

WillowTheWhisp 20-09-2008 19:16
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Not exactly. We do it so we can be eternally 'sealed' as families. Of course if you go back far enough we should all get to Noah and his family and from there automatically to Adam and Eve.

The literalness of our relationship to God is that he is father of our spirit bodies. Our earth parents are parents of our physical bodies.

blazey 20-09-2008 20:22
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 632853)
Well we're going to get into deeper water here because my answer would be disputed by other Christians but here goes anyway.

There isn't only a 'Mr. God'. There's a 'Mrs God' as well and we are all their literal children.
See I was brought up Catholic and the issue of God was just that, an issue for me.

I don't believe there is a Mr and a Mrs. I struggle to believe in God being any sort of physical being at all, but acutally one that is just used as a metaphor for a spiritual power and most definitely genderless.

For me, God = judgement. And most people don't fear the power of God 'Himself' but actually fear the judgement after death, because nobody really wants to be a bad person. Everyone does what they think is right, regardless of the law. This is why we get groups who rebel against the law but after the revolutions they cause we actually come to accept what they were saying as morally right.

That's what I think anyway. But then I also think that what matters most is that you believe in what makes you ultimately live in the best and happiest way possible, so for me all religion is acceptable even if it isn't what necessarily makes me happiest.

jambutty 21-09-2008 03:14
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 633129)
Not exactly. We do it so we can be eternally 'sealed' as families. Of course if you go back far enough we should all get to Noah and his family and from there automatically to Adam and Eve.

The literalness of our relationship to God is that he is father of our spirit bodies. Our earth parents are parents of our physical bodies.
Except that there was no Adam and Eve and if Noah existed there is no way on earth that all the animals (7 of each species) of the planet would have fit onto a vessel of a size quoted in the bible.

Then there is the question of how long ago was this Adam and Eve supposed to have existed?

If Adam and Eve did exist and they were the first homo sapiens on this planet and they begat children, who did these children ‘marry’ when they came of age to reproduce?

When I asked this question of a self confessed believer the reply was that the children of Adam and Eve ‘married each other. Now that was incest and this God forbade incest.

suedarbo 21-09-2008 18:10
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
I would be interested to hear an answer for that question, I've often wondered the same thing.

jaysay 22-09-2008 09:04
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
I see that exiled hate preacher Omar Bakri Mohammed is sabre rattling again, over the internet, threatening more 9/11 and 7/7 attrosities, and will not rest until both Britain and America are under Sharia Law. This is the guy who's family (I think he has 5 or 6 kids) are being kept by the British tax payer, isn't it time that evrything conserned with this guy is shipped out to the Lebanon and get these parasites of our backs for good.

Wynonie Harris 22-09-2008 09:23
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 633541)
This is the guy who's family (I think he has 5 or 6 kids) are being kept by the British tax payer, isn't it time that evrything conserned with this guy is shipped out to the Lebanon and get these parasites of our backs for good.
No, no, no, the government are going to keep these people here and ship the Gurkhas out (or at least those who left the service before 1997). The party I'm a member of is called the Raving Loony Party, but I reckon this lot are outdoing us...will the real Raving Loonies please stand up? :rolleyes:

jambutty 22-09-2008 11:07
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 633541)
I see that exiled hate preacher Omar Bakri Mohammed is sabre rattling again, over the internet, threatening more 9/11 and 7/7 attrosities, and will not rest until both Britain and America are under Sharia Law. This is the guy who's family (I think he has 5 or 6 kids) are being kept by the British tax payer, isn't it time that evrything conserned with this guy is shipped out to the Lebanon and get these parasites of our backs for good.
Just the UK and the USA?

He’s lowered his aim somewhat. It used to be the whole world.

The UK is rapidly becoming the laughing stock of the whole world, if we aren’t already.

mothernature 22-09-2008 12:01
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambutty (Post 633238)
Except that there was no Adam and Eve and if Noah existed there is no way on earth that all the animals (7 of each species) of the planet would have fit onto a vessel of a size quoted in the bible.

Then there is the question of how long ago was this Adam and Eve supposed to have existed?

If Adam and Eve did exist and they were the first homo sapiens on this planet and they begat children, who did these children ‘marry’ when they came of age to reproduce?

When I asked this question of a self confessed believer the reply was that the children of Adam and Eve ‘married each other. Now that was incest and this God forbade incest.




Wasn't it proven recently by DNA that mankind was descended from the African region or did I dream that?

WillowTheWhisp 22-09-2008 12:57
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Incest was only forbidden later when the human race had 'evolved' ( ;) ) to the point where reproduction between closely related people led to increased genetically related problems and abnormalities. Immediately following the fall these things had not yet developed.

Neil 22-09-2008 13:10
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 633579)
Incest was only forbidden later when the human race had 'evolved' ( ;) ) to the point where reproduction between closely related people led to increased genetically related problems and abnormalities. Immediately following the fall these things had not yet developed.

I think that smiley says it all really.

WillowTheWhisp 22-09-2008 13:14
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Yes, the smiley says what I understand by evolution, which is actually a degeneration from the perfectly created state which Adam and Eve were in to what we currently have today with all our ailments and disabilities. God did not create us like this. The human race deteriorated to this due to the fall from grace in the garden of Eden. The world also deteriorated from it's original paradisiacal state.



Maybe that's where the Catholic Church gets the idea of 'original sin'.

Neil 22-09-2008 13:19
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 633583)
Yes, the smiley says what I understand by evolution, which is actually a degeneration from the perfectly created state which Adam and Eve were in to what we currently have today with all our ailments and disabilities. God did not create us like this. The human race deteriorated to this due to the fall from grace in the garden of Eden. The world also deteriorated from it's original paradisiacal state.
I thought God was all knowing and all seeing. He must have known what was going to happen yet He screwed us up anyway when He created us.

WillowTheWhisp 22-09-2008 13:23
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Of course he knew! That's why he provide an escape clause with the Atonement. He didn't make any mistakes. He gave us our freedom so we could make our own though. How else does a child learn? Do we do everything for our own children and never allow them to learn from their own mistakes?

Lilly 22-09-2008 15:29
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil (Post 633586)
He screwed us up anyway when He created us.
Speak for yourself. :rolleyes::D

jaysay 22-09-2008 15:59
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilly (Post 633631)
Speak for yourself. :rolleyes::D
Whats this Lilly you saying Neil's a screw up:D:rolleyes:

Eric 23-09-2008 00:31
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 632853)
Well we're going to get into deeper water here because my answer would be disputed by other Christians but here goes anyway.

There isn't only a 'Mr. God'. There's a 'Mrs God' as well and we are all their literal children.
I thought that Mrs. God is the church; the bride of christ:confused: Maybe the heavenly couple should have practised birth control.:alright:

Neil 23-09-2008 01:41
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilly (Post 633631)
Speak for yourself. :rolleyes::D
Do you never get ill?

jambutty 23-09-2008 03:03
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 633583)
Yes, the smiley says what I understand by evolution, which is actually a degeneration from the perfectly created state which Adam and Eve were in to what we currently have today with all our ailments and disabilities. God did not create us like this. The human race deteriorated to this due to the fall from grace in the garden of Eden. The world also deteriorated from it's original paradisiacal state.



Maybe that's where the Catholic Church gets the idea of 'original sin'.
Did this fall from grace come before, during or after Adam and Eve had begat their brood?

WillowTheWhisp 23-09-2008 13:32
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric (Post 633838)
I thought that Mrs. God is the church; the bride of christ:confused: Maybe the heavenly couple should have practised birth control.:alright:
Ah but then you're getting into the debate about the Trinity. You see I believe that God is the Father and Jesus Christ is is son, ie two different people. However, even having said that, this 'bride of Christ' idea is only an invention in later years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jambutty (Post 633843)
Did this fall from grace come before, during or after Adam and Eve had begat their brood?
before. There was only Adm and Eve when they took up apple eating - yes I know it wasn't necessarily an apple, it was 'a fruit'.

jambutty 23-09-2008 14:14
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 633918)
before. There was only Adm and Eve when they took up apple eating - yes I know it wasn't necessarily an apple, it was 'a fruit'.
When were Adam and Eve created?

How many years BC?

Lilly 23-09-2008 15:32
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil (Post 633842)
Do you never get ill?
Sometimes....that's not screwed up though, is it? :confused:

Splinter 23-09-2008 15:37
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
I have seen far more evidence of ghosts than I have ever seen of God. I also fail to see how anyone can believe what cannot be proved.

jaysay 23-09-2008 16:06
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinter (Post 633949)
I have seen far more evidence of ghosts than I have ever seen of God. I also fail to see how anyone can believe what cannot be proved.
The power of prayer is a wonderful thing Splinter:D

Splinter 23-09-2008 16:11
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Prove it. I believe it's just a state of mind.

jaysay 23-09-2008 16:53
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinter (Post 633976)
Prove it. I believe it's just a state of mind.
Like I said the power of prayer is a wonderful thing:D

Splinter 23-09-2008 16:56
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
So, no proof, like I said.

WillowTheWhisp 23-09-2008 17:04
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinter (Post 633949)
I have seen far more evidence of ghosts than I have ever seen of God. I also fail to see how anyone can believe what cannot be proved.

So you have seen evidence of ghosts and believe in them because of that. I have seen evidence of God. Can you prove to me that ghosts exist? I too believe that they do and believe that there are different explanations for different types of ghostly sightings. Belief in ghosts and belief in God are not opposites and are quite compatible. I believe that when people die their spirits live on, as what are sometimes seen as ghosts, until the day they are united with their perfected bodies at the resurrection.

Splinter 23-09-2008 17:15
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
I have had experience of the spirit world. A cat of ours passed recently for instance. Both of us have felt a cat that was not visible, jump on the bed.

God has never presented himself to me nor anyone I know if any form. What is your proof?

WillowTheWhisp 23-09-2008 17:17
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Jesus Christ presented himself to hundreds of people in resurrected form.

God presents himself in many ways to those who really want to know, but never to prove his existence to those who deny him.

Splinter 23-09-2008 17:18
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
You know that because it was written in a book?

WillowTheWhisp 23-09-2008 17:23
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Nope, I know because he answers my prayers. I read the book to find out more about him.

Splinter 23-09-2008 17:25
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
I think maybe for you, when something goes right, it's God's work, when really, it just went right.

WillowTheWhisp 23-09-2008 17:29
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
No, it isn't like that at all. Sometimes the answers are not the ones I want and seem on the face of it to be 'wrong' but usually end up being for a better reason than I would have been aware of.

Also, when my first husband died he had no fear of where he was going because he'd seen it in a vision twice before.

It's incredibly difficult to explain faith but I know that it's real and no amount of anyone insisting that it isn't logical could ever change that.

Splinter 23-09-2008 17:35
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
You see, I get hung up on the word 'faith'. It works the same way when you have 'faith' that you car will start, doesn't mean it will.

I had 'visions' that Southend pier would burn, the night before it did.

WillowTheWhisp 23-09-2008 17:37
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinter (Post 634012)
It works the same way when you have 'faith' that you car will start, doesn't mean it will.
I agree. Just because you believe something doesn't mean it is so. Equally just because you don't believe something doesn't mean it isn't. I could say that I don't believe your car will start and you would think I was daft because you know your car does start.

Splinter 23-09-2008 17:41
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
I don't think I have said I don't believe, I just find it difficult. I lean more towards being guided by the spirit world, and I have been.

MargaretR 23-09-2008 18:01
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Even though I am an atheist I believe in survival of personality after death.
People have experienced spirits of deceased pets too - wonder what religion those pets believed in:rolleyes:

Neil 23-09-2008 18:02
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 634003)
God presents himself in many ways to those who really want to know, but never to prove his existence to those who deny him.
Another good cop out there, so thats why I have never seen him, because I don't believe :D

Splinter 23-09-2008 18:37
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quite.

WillowTheWhisp 23-09-2008 19:03
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Sorry Splinter, I was meaning 'you' in general terms like anybody, somebody or the posh 'one'. I didn't make that very clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 634034)
People have experienced spirits of deceased pets too - wonder what religion those pets believed in:rolleyes:
They don't have to have believed in any. It wouldn't stop it being true. If someone didn't believe in life after death it doesn't mean that after they die they will cease to exist. It's like somebody saying they don't believe in Australia because they have never been there. It doesn't mean there is no Australia and it doesn't cease to exist just because someone believes it doesn't.

Eventually we will all know for sure if the believers are right or if the non-believers are right. When that time comes I would rather be a believer even if I'm proved wrong than a non-believer and be proved wrong.

Splinter 23-09-2008 19:10
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
I cannot bring myself to believe in that which has never presented itself to me.

I have never been to Australia, but my husband lived there for a while, so I know it is there. Maps have shown me, I drink Australian wine, I watched Skippy!!

But where is the God proof?

I do not believe the bible. Too many translations over time.

WillowTheWhisp 23-09-2008 19:28
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
I understand your problem with the Bible and totally agree with you. Not only have there been numerous translations there have been many things left out when the compilation was decided upon several hundred years after Jesus left this earth.

jaysay 24-09-2008 09:59
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
I find Religion to be a very imotive subject, People have their own thoughts on religion, just like people have different prespectives on politics. I would never think of trying to ram my religion down anybody elses throat, religion is a persons own particular choice. In my earlier post I was making a lighthearted coment on splinters posts, nothing more. I also have the same outlook on politics really, it would be futile to think I could change a committed Labour supporter to my way of think, it ain't going to happen

jambutty 24-09-2008 12:38
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 634268)
I find Religion to be a very imotive subject, People have their own thoughts on religion, just like people have different prespectives on politics. I would never think of trying to ram my religion down anybody elses throat, religion is a persons own particular choice. In my earlier post I was making a lighthearted coment on splinters posts, nothing more. I also have the same outlook on politics really, it would be futile to think I could change a committed Labour supporter to my way of think, it ain't going to happen
Unfortunately hard line, militant, extremist Muslims do not share your view. Their primary aim is to turn the whole world into an Islamic world. And they don’t shirk from using force to do so.

The greater majority of Muslims out of direct influence of the hard liners just want to live in peace where they are and get on with their lives. Unfortunately, just like with the Catholics several hundred years ago when the church said jump the response was how high, the moderate Muslim will also say how high when the command comes.

The real tragedy of this situation is that not only is our government allowing it to happen but actually encouraging it to happen.

Gingerninja 24-09-2008 12:42
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Ah..the old adage never discuss religion or politics seems to be true - as others have said - they are far too emotive subjects. I am atheist, my father agnostic, my mother Cof E - but by fellow siblings and I were christened Methodist (it was the nearest church) - I enjoyed the brownies, guides, Sunday School, MAYC - up to the age when I could question and make up my own mind. And that is the crux here - the ability to choose - I perceive that in some religions, Christianity, Islam, Judaism - that right to choose is not as straightforward as in my non religion. I'm not indoctrinated - and I will not indoctrinate - everyone has a right to believe what they want to believe - as long as it does no harm to others and causes those who do not believe in that particular ideology to fear and be intimidated - point me to any religion or belief that doesn't do that to someone - somewhere....

Splinter 24-09-2008 15:14
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambutty (Post 634299)
Unfortunately hard line, militant, extremist Muslims do not share your view. Their primary aim is to turn the whole world into an Islamic world. And they don’t shirk from using force to do so.

The greater majority of Muslims out of direct influence of the hard liners just want to live in peace where they are and get on with their lives. Unfortunately, just like with the Catholics several hundred years ago when the church said jump the response was how high, the moderate Muslim will also say how high when the command comes.

The real tragedy of this situation is that not only is our government allowing it to happen but actually encouraging it to happen.
Could not agree more.:mosher:

jambutty 25-09-2008 14:11
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambutty (Post 633927)
When were Adam and Eve created?

How many years BC?
I see that none of the bible punchers have replied to my question.

Could it be that if they did commit to X number of years BC we non-believers could then present real verifiable scientific proof that creationism is a load of cobblers?

WillowTheWhisp 25-09-2008 18:06
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
I suppose you are waiting for someone to say 4000BC but in actual fact we don't really know and any sensible Christian would avoid answering a question to which there is no specific answer. Some have deduced 4000BC by calculating ages and so on, but we don't have all the evidence or relevant information and it's not an accurate way of going about things.

It's like the 'seven days' of creation. The term 'day' is used but we have no idea how long a Heavenly day is.

Gayle 25-09-2008 19:07
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
I totally admire anyone who has absolute faith in anything, it's one thing to believe something when you have proof but it's another to believe so firmly in something without concrete proof. But I equally admire people who are resolutely convinced that there is no God either.

That's not to say that I don't believe in God, to be honest I have no idea what to believe - I'd like to keep my options open just in case he does exist but on the other hand I have a scepticism about the whole thing. I think I'm probably like the majority of people in the country at the moment.

Surely, if God was going to 'show' himself to anyone I'd be the ideal candidate for a viewing as it could just tip the balance for me. :D

Splinter 25-09-2008 19:18
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
I neither believe not disbelieve. The only possible 'proof' that God may exist is the Bible, written by man.

jambutty 26-09-2008 16:46
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 634747)
I suppose you are waiting for someone to say 4000BC but in actual fact we don't really know and any sensible Christian would avoid answering a question to which there is no specific answer. Some have deduced 4000BC by calculating ages and so on, but we don't have all the evidence or relevant information and it's not an accurate way of going about things.

It's like the 'seven days' of creation. The term 'day' is used but we have no idea how long a Heavenly day is.
Yes indeed I am. Because the bible believers seem to have everything else tied down as fact. So why the reticence in dating creation day? That’s a cop out if ever there was one.

I would have thought that a sensible Christian would try to find the date of creation with respect to our calendar to disprove the sceptics once and for all. The fact that creation cannot be dated is simply because there wasn’t one, at least not in the way described in the scriptures.

As for the term day as in on the 6th day God created Adam and Eve etc. This foible was written by a human person so it is most likely that he was referring to an earth day. He would not have had any other reference point. So trying to pass it off as a heavenly day or a universal day is another cop out.

Science has proven beyond dispute that the earth is at least 4 billion years old. So if God created this planet he must have done so some 4 billions years ago. The old testament was written from about 1400 BC onwards about events that happened billions of years ago. So where did the writers get their information from? Word of mouth? From very, very old scriptures perhaps? Either way it just doesn’t wash.

What you believe in is your own affair and it is your prerogative to do so but please don’t try and present your beliefs as fact.

Splinter 26-09-2008 16:58
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Well said jambutty!! I too believe creationism to be bunkum. No proof, and not even logic available for this 'belief'.

I'm with Darwin, totally logical and somewhat provable.

Gayle 26-09-2008 17:07
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Though, surely the 'creation' days are in the right order - created planets, sky and moon, plants, fish, animals etc. It's the same process as evolution but put in the story context of days. I think that whoever wrote Genesis did it as a story based on the process of evolution.

Splinter 26-09-2008 17:19
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
But creationists do not believe in evolution, 'God made everything' is their mantra.

Eric 26-09-2008 17:23
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambutty (Post 634662)
I see that none of the bible punchers have replied to my question.

Could it be that if they did commit to X number of years BC we non-believers could then present real verifiable scientific proof that creationism is a load of cobblers?
There are many stabs at dating creation: In Shakespeare's "As You Like It," Rosalind says, "The poor world is almost six thousand years old." This probably reflects contemporary popular belief. Martin Luther had it at 4000 BC, Johannes Kepler at 3992 BC, and the most accurate, or, at least, precise, of all was Bishop James Ussher who set it on 23d October, 4004 BC.

steeljack 26-09-2008 17:39
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gayle (Post 635032)
Though, surely the 'creation' days are in the right order - created planets, sky and moon, plants, fish, animals etc. It's the same process as evolution but put in the story context of days. I think that whoever wrote Genesis did it as a story based on the process of evolution.
Totally agree , seems to me the "ancients" had a lot of knowledge that somehow got lost for a time , and we are just begining to 're-discover' it again

Gayle 26-09-2008 17:49
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinter (Post 635037)
But creationists do not believe in evolution, 'God made everything' is their mantra.
May be he did - may be he created evolution.

It's just another way of looking at it but essentially it's the same thing.

Splinter 26-09-2008 17:51
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
As a scientist, I have difficulty with that. Muddy puddle for me.

Gayle 26-09-2008 18:01
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinter (Post 635056)
As a scientist, I have difficulty with that. Muddy puddle for me.

No one can really know for sure what happened and both scientists and creationists absolutely believe that they are right. I just think that scientists and creationists are coming at the same thing but from different angles. Both think they have proof but both need a lot of faith to believe absolutely in their own points of view.

Splinter 26-09-2008 18:39
Re: Sharia Law Rules OK!
 
You could be right!!! lol!


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