Sharia Law Rules OK!
 

The Sunday Times declares.
“ISLAMIC law has been officially adopted in Britain, with sharia courts given powers to rule on Muslim civil cases.

The government has quietly sanctioned the powers for sharia judges to rule on cases ranging from divorce and financial disputes to those involving domestic violence.

Rulings issued by a network of five sharia courts are enforceable with the full power of the judicial system, through the county courts or High Court.

Previously, the rulings of sharia courts in Britain could not be enforced, and depended on voluntary compliance among Muslims.

It has now emerged that sharia courts with these powers have been set up in London, Birmingham, Bradford and Manchester with the network’s headquarters in Nuneaton, Warwickshire. Two more courts are being planned for Glasgow and Edinburgh.”

You can read more at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4749183.ece

Muslim cases today. Mixed religion cases tomorrow.

A possible scenario.

A Muslim’s builder lays a driveway in your property. You, a non Muslim, think that his work is shoddy and refuse to pay him until he puts it right. He refuses and takes his case to a Sharia Court.

The thin end of the wedge has been firmly inserted and it is only a matter of time before Sharia law becomes fully incorporated into English law.

Well done Mullah Brown. You’ve just turned the UK into a Muslim country of the future.

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Better get that deposit down on our villa in Tenerife.............

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Why do you feel the need to put certain sections of the article in big letters and different colours? Are we incapable of seeing emphasis? You're like a personal tabloid.

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You stopped short in your first post - the next bit said

The rulings of arbitration tribunals are binding in law, provided that both parties in the dispute agree to give it the power to rule on their case.


If BOTH parties agree - so if you're never going to agree to the decision by a sharia court you can't be tried in one!

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The article also says that Jewish Beth Din courts have been operating in the same way (ie - under arbitration which both parties have agreed to) for over 100 years.

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people complain about muslims not following the law then they complain when something is done about it.......

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then the whole thing is pointless but..

muslim women for instance will be beaten into accepting it so basicly all the govenment have done is give muslims the right to beat their women becase a: they will be beaten into accepting this stupid crack pot courts ruling and b: if they go to court for domestic violence these courts will not support them

are we going to have public stonings as long as both parties agree ?

welcome to englanstan:rolleyes:

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You forgot to complain about my post using Times New Roman size 12 instead of the forum default.

Sheeesh!!!

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I could have reproduced the whole article but that would have taken up a lot of room so I opted to quote the first few paragraphs followed by:
You can read more at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4749183.ece

Actually the next bit was,
“Sheikh Faiz-ul-Aqtab Siddiqi, whose Muslim Arbitration Tribunal runs the courts, said he had taken advantage of a clause in the Arbitration Act 1996.

Under the act, the sharia courts are classified as arbitration tribunals.”

Then came, “The rulings of arbitration tribunals are binding in law, provided that both parties in the dispute agree to give it the power to rule on their case.”

Quote:

If BOTH parties agree - so if you're never going to agree to the decision by a sharia court you can't be tried in one!

You don’t get a decision by any court until AFTER you have been tried.

If a Muslim takes you to a Sharia court in a civil dispute and you don’t turn up to defend yourself, the plaintiff can get judgement, just like in a County Court for a civil case. Then, “Rulings issued by a network of five sharia courts are enforceable with the full power of the judicial system, through the county courts or High Court” comes into play.

So you get a judgement against you in a Sharia court, which is then enforceable through the County or High Courts.

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Because its classed as an arbitration panel, if you refuse arbitration the case cannot be heard there so the plaintiff cannot get a ruling at all. Therefore you cannot be tried in a Sharia court unless you give express permission

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But it says quite clearly that both parties have to agree in advance, they have to give it the power in the first place.

If someone said they were to try me by sharia law and I refused to acknowledge that system then I would be unable to be tried by that system. Both parties have to agree in advance to accept whatever the outcome will be.

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What has domestic violence got to do with anything, it says civil cases? Last thing on a victim of domestic violence's mind is compensation surely? I think I'd be concentrating on getting them behind bars!

I've never had a muslim try to convert me before either, I really should start paying more attention to my friends.

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How many times are ppl going to bring this up?!

if two parties do not agree to on going through this then no one can force them to go thru this!

stupid people seem to think this panel is the be all and end all of all british law

even a percentage of muslims in the uk do not recognise this court!!

it really is the racists who seem to make a HUGE issue of this in that all of a sudden everyone will have to go through this. this is designed to sort out complex muslim issues within their own community.

and accyman - you really shouldnt go talking crap like that when you dont know exactly what happens in such cases. if you have been through domestic abuse regardless of religion/caste/creed you would know the last thing on your mind is compensation. FYI i have a friend who was a victim of domestic abuse and her family went through such a court to get a divorce and it was granted in her favour. she then persued the actual domestic abuse case via the british courts as she wanted him jailed. this court doesnt have the power to do that.

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You made 2 statements above that show what is wrong with all this. Many Muslims see themselves as belonging to their own community as you stated and not a part of the whole community. It is this very separatist view by many/most Muslims that is causing many of the race related problems we have today.

You then mention the british courts, does this mean you believe the other courts are not British even though they are in Britain? :confused:

Thats 2 very seperatist and racist statements you made while complaining that people are racist. You are right people are racist, most of them from what you describe as being from their own community.

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Islam isn't a race...

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Its not often I agree with blazey but I do here.These courts can't rule on criminal cases, so in that respect I don't have a problem, but and its a big but, is this just the thin end of a very large wedge, I tend to use the saying give and inch and they'll take a mile, nly time will tell

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the catholic church does not recognise any marriage that took place any where other than a catholic church, so if you got married in a registry office then got divorced you would be able to get married in church.....

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Very true but it is easier to say racist when we really mean religiously prejudiced.

Its easier to spell as well ;)

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:D fair enough

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On the Observer web site there is a section for ex pats and it gives a drop down list of 5 reasons for leaving Accrington 1/ retired 2/ working 3/ tax reasons 4/ weather/lifestyle
5/ no reason.Almost all have put no reason number 5 Thats because my guess is the majority like myself left because of the same reason which the observer wont put in the list.When honesty can not be allowed because it may be interpreted racist by some. It is a sad day for all.

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i also have a muslim friend who went through domestic abuse from her husband, he stabbed her with a pair of scissors some years ago, she is now divorced and has only recently moved back to accy

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Wouldn't they lump that under lifestyle?

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I don't think sharia law is 'bad' from what I know of it, but it is simply 'different'

Nothing that breaches the Human Rights Act 1998 would be enforced from sharia law in this country, so all fundamental rights would still be protected.

I don't often have faith in our government but when it comes to the law and breaching rights that might put our being at risk then I do believe that we have a government that respects this wholeheartedly even if sometimes that doesn't necessarily seem to be the case.

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I live in a country of immigrants ... and most seem happy to live under Canadian law and the protection of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. There is a small group of extremist, you got it, muslims who pressure governments, provincial and federal, for sharia law for muslims. It aint going to happen here. The only groups who are allowed to have some form of local cultural and spiritual laws, specific to themselves, are the First Nations people. This is fine by me and a lot of Canadians because First Nations were here before the rest of us.

But, as I think I mentioned in another thread, for many muslims, religion and the state are inseperable, like it was in Christendom in the middle ages. In the western tradition, the anti-sacerdotal movement begins in earnest in the late 12th century, and was resolved in favor of the secular state by the 15th century with the firm establishment of the centralized national state. Long gone are the days when popes could depose kings, based on a few contentious verses in the bible. Laws are no longer the word of some god that not all choose to believe in (Sarah Palin comes to mind as one leading western political figure who doesn't seem to have advanced all that far from the middle ages in her political thought) I see this whole thing as a clash of two radically different traditions. Let's hope you guys don't lose the battle, or you will all be headed for some form of modern, twisted Canossa.

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I am still failing to see why there is an 'Us Vs Them' battle all the time. Will someone please explain what is so bad about immigrants and how people determine just on sight who is an immigrant and who is a british national?

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So close to the anniversary of 9/11, and you still can't see the "us vs. them." Anyone who can't see what is happening in the world has his/her head up their ass. And this is not a discussion about immigrants in general, but about something more specific and particular. There is nothing bad about immigrants. I'm an immigrant;)

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So you mean us against terrorists? I get confused, sometimes I think we're going on about hating terrorists and then all of a sudden I feel like I should be hating some of my best friends. The jump from hating terrorists to hating all muslims seems such a small one recently... I do get confused when anything like this gets brought up on the forum.

9/11 wasn't an attack against England though was it, though I understand why you would bring it up as an example. Wasn't it 7/7 or something in London? That would've been a better example but it doesn't quite have the same ring to it does it.

Was that bombing in Manchester years ago by muslims? I was quite young then and only have very vague memories of it in the news.

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IRA - but we don't hate everyone from Ireland do we?

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I don't see it as us verses them. What I see is people who want to live in the UK but dont want to live under our laws and beliefs. Instead they wish to try and impose there law and beliefs on us. The fact we have these sepratist attutides by some people is in itself causing the us and them.

If people sre not happy to live under UK law and what to live under sharia law then let them move to a country that has sharia law.

How many years will it be before we start to have civil unrests like in Serbia/Croatia in Britain? It may not be in our lifetimes but I can see it as a real possiblity if something is not done to prevent these sepratist communities we now appear to have.

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Good post, Neil.

I agree. :)

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very well explained, lets just hope "some" can grasp it.:rolleyes:

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Pure crazy whats happening in this country and even more crazy people who think its not a problem.When in Rome.This does not help imigrants intergrating if anything it does the opposite.Whats happening to common sense or is that a racist word.

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well said Lilly

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Of course 9/11 was an attack against Britain .... it was an attack against Canada .... it was an an attack against western democracy .... as were the attacks in London. This conflct is fundamental, and victory will go to the most highly motivated and the most commited.

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Sharia Law is fine as long as it's confined to Islamic matters amongst Muslims and operates within the Law of the Land. Where I forsee problems is with the idiots who are so desparate to appear anti-discriminating and pro-anybody from a different culture. These are the people who scream that words like "Christmas" and "Easter" should never be heard, lest they offend non-Christians, and will make much noise about Sharia in what they deludedly imagine to be a "positive" way.

That makes me very angry - consider - Britain has had Jewish communities for a couple of centuries. Who, in the past, ever advocated playing down Christmas in case it offended a Jew? Those PC fools are playing into the hands of the Extremists and helping to create a huge religious division. Rabbinical Law, the Beth Din (court), has already been mentioned in this thread. Hands up who had ever, really, heard of it? Not many, I would think, because it operates quietly to resolve Jewish issues and doesn't impinge on the British Courts and the Politically Correct faction don't think Jews count. To be honest, they don't count because, from day 1, while maintaining their religious and racial identity, they integrated; probably out of necessity in order to thrive but it has worked very well.

No, I'm not against Sharia Law, in its rightful place, but we must be very wary of the smug, "look-at-me-I'm-not-a-racist" faction who may well make it into an Issue. They are the ones who help to maintain bad feeling and mistrust.

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I find this quite interesting :

BBC NEWS | UK | First Hindu faith school opening

In it one of the Hindu federation says : "We're hoping it won't actually divide people from us, but integrate them in a different way..."

Eh ? by only allowing people who believe in Hindu values in, yet this only represents 33% of the population there isnt that alienation rather than integration ?

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Why does nobody kick up a fuss about sharia banking? That is different than our traditional banking but nobody seems to say 'well if they don't like our banking why don't they go to a country that offers the banking they want'.

I don't know anything about sharia law but I may get a chance to study it when I go back to uni because I've picked a module that looks at various types of law around the world, so perhaps I will be able to make a more educated opinion on whether I'm for or against this because in reality I don't know what the differences would be, so for all I know it could be better than our current system.

Would opinions on this be different if we had (say) French law incorporated into our law? Our law doesn't originate from British ideology anyway does it, it's taken from all sorts of ancient law.

I'm not saying that it is wrong to oppose the changes because you could be right for all I know. But the law is influenced by international laws all the time so I'm not really willing to rule it out without even knowing what it is about, and unfortunately I'm not satisfied enough by the knowledge the media gives me on it to make that opinion.

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I went to Roman Catholic schools in this Church of England country, do you think I am alienated as well?

Religious schooling is a good idea I think because they have a better understanding of the students beliefs and can then reflect them on the world outside the school, unlike a school that doesn't understand their beliefs enough to show them how it applies outside.

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In the same way that politics and religion is a bad mix, so is religion and education.
If you want your children brainwashed into the same beliefs as yourself, then do it yourself, or pay to send them to classes that will

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I don't think religious education is like that at all personally. I've never met anyone that has never rejected an idea that has been taught to them anyway. I'm studying ethics at the moment that relates to this kind of thing but there are so many different ideas that whatever I say can be knocked down by some other theory anyway, which leads me to think that basically there is no right answer at all... but humans are intelligent creatures and form their ethics generally on their fellings towards things. Very few people can honestly say killing is a good thing regardless of what religion has been taught to them.

And no religious school in this country would be allowed to teach anything of an extremist nature, just as a side thought...

Only a few abnormal individuals take pleasure from pain and suffering and death, and I believe they'll think that way no matter what type of school they go to be it religious or non-religious.

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Are you saying we should not have church schools, Margaret?

Why is that?

There is a choice of school for everybody. If you are C of E we have St Christophers, if you are Catholic we have Mount Carmel and if you are not religious there are plenty of non church schools i.e. Rhyddings, Hollins, Accrington Academy to send your children to.

If you are not religious you can send your child to a non church school so why would you be against church schools for others? :confused:

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Leviticus 18: 22 of the Bible pretty much preaches hate for homosexuals. Do you think this means I must believe and live by that because I went to a Catholic School?

The bible is full of all sorts of old fashioned ideology, though I'd like to think any human being capable of learning to read would also be capable of making up their own mind about things.

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I consider religious education in school time as a waste of that time.
Every person should make decisions about religion in adulthood.
Moral values and good social behaviour should not be linked to any religion.
Church schools are an outdated system which began a couple of centuries ago, when that was the only education available.
Such an education system divides society.
Religious teaching should be seperate from the state system and optional

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This is surely just a matter of opinion based on observation though, unless of course you have been taught at a religious school any time recently and experienced it?

I gained a lot out of mine and reflect on what I was taught a lot now that I am old enough to appreciate it.

How does one get in touch with their spiritual side when they are younger if they aren't taught about religion? What other subject awakens that path of thought?

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Ask me that question sometime while we are stood in the playground of our childrens church school ;)

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I agree that morals and good social behaviour should be taught in all schools and I'm sure they are.

I don't see the problem with church schools though as there are plenty of non church schools to choose from.

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I would much prefer to see this country follow the example of the USA in not allowing any form of "faith" schools. I really believe that sectarian education is unhealthy, in a world-embracing sense, and that education should be completely separate from religious affinity.

I had a good education at Paddock House, a Convent Grammar School, and I will always be grateful to the nuns (and lay teachers) who gave me such a good grounding in academia. Along with this, though, there was always the Catholic doctrine, constantly reinforced and promoted. It took me nearly 20 years to shake off "Catholic Guilt" and become a laid-back and (I hope) free-thinking individual.

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Can I not ask you now? ;)

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The catholic schools won't be so intense nowadays though, will they?

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It is only at school that children learn an unbiased view of religion - even at religious schools. In religious schools, religious education is about teaching about all different religions. My two are at a catholic school but they acknowledge other religious ceremonies so that children can learn and then make informed choices when they're older.

Young children learn their fanaticism (in any religion) at home.

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I was christened C of E and went to a Methodist primary school and went to Methodist sunday school.
It made me realise how rife religious bigotry is, and I decided that a life without religion was preferable.
I choose to adopt the moral values of the society I was born in and live in.
I do so without the fear of hellfire and brimstone if I don't

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Gayle's right. At a C of E school I learnt about Sikhism, Judaism and Hinduism too.

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Teaching several religions in schools gives children a choice, but instills the idea that a choice should be made.
I compare it to being offered a rotten apple and a mouldy pear - 'which one are you going to eat?' - the option to refuse both doesn't arise.
They should also be advised that opt out is also acceptable.

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My school didn't force religion on anyone though all catholic students were expected to attend mass but it was just a gathering like an assembly really, it didn't teach the strict catholic views nor did it impose having holy communion on anyone if they didn't want to.

My school accepted muslim students though and I know there were other children from different religions who went, for example I recall a rastafarian girl at the school who used to live on my street.

Religious schools generally aren't strict anymore in that sense and you choose to send your child to a religious school anyway so it's simple enough to opt out of it entirely. Why should the choice to go to a religious school be taken away though? I chose to go to my high school even though I could have gone to another non-religious school.

Can children not make religious choices?

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This implies that religion is neccessary for human survival
....it isn't

PS we would be better off without it

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In any Christian school these days Margaret, very little religion is actually taught ... apart from assembly (if still happening) religious education classes maybe a couple of times per week, the local vicar popping in now and then, certain icons and pictures around the school, and visit to the church now and then, don't really think the religion of any particular christian school is pushed down their necks.

My grandaughter, for instance, attends a Catholic 6th form college in Leeds .. OK .. they only take in about 15% of non catholics, but catholicism has never been pushed down her throat. She is an Atheist and actually taking R.E. in A Levels ... only got a 'C' this year so doing it again to improve her grade. The R.E. teaching covers all social issues, and her feelings and thoughts on being non-religious is never critised at all, in fact welcomed as an alternative view point. They have too high a regard for the quality of the education they supply.

My son, daughter, grandaughter all attended All Saints in Clayton as did my ex .. daughter went to St. Christophers, son to Q.E.G.S., grandaughter Bowland... they are now all atheist, but have high moral standards towards crime and the treatment of other human beings, so their Adulthood brought on their own decisions at the end of the day.

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theres many different types of mathematics may as well give em the choice to opt out of that as well.:rolleyes:

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School time could be better spent on teaching other things.
Teaching religion should be a small part of history teaching by demonstrating the adverse effect it has had on the progress of mankind

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Thats easy to answer ...... football, the best religion in the world :D

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Is art necessary? or music?

Not really, but some people enjoy it. I enjoy it so much I still attend regular talks on it at university to learn more about that way of thinking. I study ethics which sometimes draws upon religious teachings, sometimes criticises it.

You can't be right about this issue really, or wrong. Some people are better because of it. Some people turn away from crime because of religion, some get real comfort from it.

A friend of mine used to be tied up in drugs and crime and now he's 'found God' and whilst I don't agree with half of what he says, I think it is brilliant that something has gave him the focus to find a person in himself that doesnt need drugs and crime.

I think that is something to be thankful for and if that is wrong well then it's a very sad state of affairs.

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thats in your case, n thats fine,no problem, but many get great solace,peace etc from it n thats fine as well. to each their own.:)

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It is a bit ludicrous to compare music and art with religion.
They are all man made, but art and music never caused disruption of society and wars.

Your friend has decided to conform to society values - good.
I would think better of him if if had found a more realistic reason for doing so

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Art has caused offence between white people and islamists... so a bad example of peacefulness there.

I am not saying you should be Catholic, you are clearly happy as you are. Yet you think people would be better without it. Is there something wrong with me?

There are wars over oil, shall we boycott that as well? And money?

I'm just getting offended by this topic now so I'm just going to leave it for other people to argue because sometimes there is just no compromise with some people. It's either their way or it's wrong, and i'm not willing to discuss things that mean a lot to me with close minded people.

From this conversation you have made me feel like I am wrong for being the way I am, and that is no different than those who pressure religion onto other people, so you have more in common with them than you think.

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'Peace of mind and solace' are achievable without religion.
If it is the only way that some people can find a reason for living then it is neccessary, but sadly so.

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I side with Margaret on this one, we would be better off without religion, to me borders on a very serious evil side of nature, albeit also the very good side of it too. Like a good pop tune, has a poor flip side. Respect all other people's beliefs as long as they are doing no harm to my way of living (which some do at times).

We are grouping animals by nature, and will always have separate groups no matter what. No getting away from that I am afraid.

Not particularly happy about these courts being sanctioned at all .. although if only small disputes and not over-riding our own laws is OK, and as long as any judgement metered out will not be over stepping our punishment laws either ... just acting as 'Social' committees so to speak. Does appear though that could be the start of a growing separate justice system.

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thats the "Real" danger to me, oh little things will be ok, well NO they will not, its the thin end of the wedge,only the start, fer goodness sake this is britain, we live by british law,its as simple as that.:(

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Whilst I was off-line there were quite a few programmes on about this, taking part in one discussion were young British Muslims and they were none to taken with the idea of Sharia Law. As has been said seems to be the thin edge of the wedge, we have laws that have sufficed so far why change?

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or more important bernie WHY should we? i did not expect the spanish to change fer me when i lived there why the hell should they.

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Margaret i thought you grew up in the 60's ....... what about mods and rockers ........ :D

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no jen that her age.:hidewall:

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Agree but it seems it is happening

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You can ask yes, but I won't answer :D

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Your living dangerously there cashy ......... :D:D:D

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Well blazey its changed since I went to school, I went to St Mary's, and we had a Sunday Mass register, i.e. you had to have a good excuse for not going. You had to learn the catachism from front to back, and was regulaly questioned abou it, and had the teachings of the church rammeddown your neck at every oppertunity, but I'm still a card carring member:D

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I can understand that dave, you ending up praying for the Dingles every Saturday afternoon :D:p

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A leading Labour Muslim MP Sadiq Khan has said that a lot of British muslims in this country suffer from "victim mentality" he also said that Britsh Muslims must tckle sexism, learn English and condemn forced marriages, don't think the guys far wrong myself

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Unfortunately children are introduced to their parent’s religion from the day they are born. They get taken to the church as babes, then toddlers and go to a church school. They are in effect brain washed to believe in that religion. Don’t forget that in the first five years of life and beyond children are like sponges and will believe everything that is told them, because they know no different.

The religious message is reinforced in church schools with prayers during morning assembly and a period of RI at least once a week.

By the time that the kids reach their teens many see through the religious charade, rebel and throw off the shackles. But the initial teaching is so well embedded that even in later life they can still remember their religious upbringing even if they no longer follow it.

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Religion is taught in schools in the same way that every other subject is taught. There is no implication that a child must choose to follow one of the religions they learn about. Just because a child is taught mathematics doesn't mean they will become a mathematician, or being taught chemistry doesn't mean they are going to end up being a scientist. It's all theoretical at that stage. They just learn that "This is what some people believe and how they go about practicing their religion" - NB they are also taught that some people choose not to believe anything.

Maybe they should be able to opt out of geography too - after all this is Britain, don't want to contaminate their minds with the idea that there are a lot of foreign countries out there! ;)


I agree. Some people take atheism to such an extreme that it actually becomes their religion and they try to force it onto others whilst complaining that they are having religion forced down their own throats. There is nothing more forceful than an opinionated atheist IMO.

:D I was the opposite. My parents didn't go to church and I didn't go to a church school. I didn't go to Sunday school but rebelled at a very young age because I didn't believe everything I was told. So my initial teaching wasn't very well embedded at all because I made my own choice in adulthood.

Our church doesn't have its own schools. My children attended/attend state schools where they had/have RE classes where they are taught about other religions. Our own denomination is never featured because the schools know so very little about it. So my children are taught to question and compare and make their own minds up. In our church they are encouraged to do the same.

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Forceful? Try radical followers of Islam who blow people up in the name of Allah, and Christian radicals who indoctrinate young children into living for hate and train them to publicly assault people who they see as 'fags' for not living by God's will (as seen in Louis Theroux's 'The Most Hated Family in America' programme, and countless other reports).
No atheist has ever set bombs off in the name of Atheism, as the minority of religious radicals have done for their belief.

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Well said Shakermaker!
Have to say i'm with Margeret on this one.
I went to a CofE school and a lot of time was devoted to the church and religion.
Apart from our regular R.E classes,we had assemblys with the vicar and sang hymns and had to go to church regularly too.
I hated it at the time because i thought it was boring!
As i got older i realised i not only found much of it boring and pointless but ludicrous too so have never set foot in a church since and am a committed atheist.
I'm not saying i'm right and i won't attack people for their beliefs,each to their own,just that i don't and will never understand religion and people who are deeply committed to a faith.

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Well, I'm with Blazey on this one.

I still don't understand why some people think we should not have any church schools. Each to their own and all that with regards to religion. You don't have to send your child to a church school if you don't want to but I still don't understand why some people don't want church schools to exist. :confused:

What's it matter if you're not involved?

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You're a strange one. :p

I must remember to ask you what the hell you're talking about when I see you. :D

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They are state subsidised from the tax I pay.

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What theory of indoctrination would that be?
It's parents that indoctrinate children not schools. Thankfully we are getting towards a stage where silly things such as the story of creation are taught in RE classes and not Science in faith schools, and are regarded as 'what some people may believe...' rather than fact. Christian faith schools aren't the hardline religious institutions they used to be because it was basically borderline child abuse. Stories of fire and brimstone fearing kids into believing in God? Pllllease.
The only indoctrination that goes on is from parents instilling children with the affirmation that 'you are a Roman Catholic child' or 'you are a Muslim child' etc. It's sick. It's as absurd as sticking a conservative, socialist or liberal label on the child.

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Is that why mount carmel is a science college these days :rofl38: sorry couldnt resist lol

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The problem that people seem concerned about is not that politics and religion is a bad mix .... it's that in Islamic states and communities politics and religion are inseperable. Islam and Islamic states grew up together. In fact, Islam preceded the Islamic states. In the western tradition, christianity arrived in a system that was already established. Apart from some serious debate (altho' that debate now seems anachronistic, even silly) mainly between 1050 and 1300, western tradition is based on a separation of church and state. Even the bible mentions the "two swords", the secular and the sacred ... After the collapse of the western empire, people looked to the church for leadership .... Sorry folks, I'm laspsing into pedantry ... but the point is that islamic states and communities are radically different from those which grew out of the western democratic tradition ... east is east and west etc. Like it or not, there is a war going on ... and the front lines are not only in Afghanistan and Iraq ... they are in New York, in London on your buses and subways, in your own communities ... in a lot of ways muslim immigration into England reminds me of the Trojan Horse. I don't suppose any of you forget that the terrorists who set the bombs in London were "home grown."

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But it is faith schools people are objecting to on the grounds that they indoctrinate children.

I would be happy if more things were taught in school as 'what some people may believe...' rather than concrete fact, and I'm not talking about religion. There are scientific and historical 'facts' which I was taught at school which I have since found to be somewhat dubious to say the least.

Let's not forget that the theory of evolution is exactly that - a theory.

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Apropos of nothing at all; my younger daughter went through a religious phase in her pre-teen years. This was fine by me.

She joined the Brownies - Methodists - she's Brown Owl of that same troop now, and she's an atheist but she attends church parades. For about a year she went to the Methodist Sunday School but also went to the C of E parish church with school for carols etc. Then she decided she would like to be a Catholic. I said I would be happy to go to Mass with her (Catholic Church not far from our house) as, though now an agnostic, I knew what it was all about but, before it got off the ground, she decided to become a Jew. This stumped me as the nearest synagogue is in Sale but, if she'd been really keen, I would have made the effort.

In the end she decided that she was an atheist and I never tried to influence her, one way or the other.

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Err... yeah, a theory with a stupendous amount of hard evidence from millions of years! Hardly 'just a theory' as you infer it to be.

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It was theory when Darwin thought of it, and has been proved correct since by fossil records and real life experiments into mutation in butterflies.

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Darwin didn't just conjure it out of nowhere, he had his evidence too. A lot of it. Since his time the evidence in favour of evolution has been found absolutely everywhere. It's pretty petulant and ignorant to deny it actually.

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Don't think Willow meant exactly evolution ... this is happening all the time now for people to see ... probably more the big bang theory ?

Had a discussion last week with someone who didn't believe in evolution and that we have been visited by aliens and this is the reason for blacks in Africa, almond eyes in China and leather skins in Eskimos, etc .... :rolleyes: Inseminated during different eras .. you just cannot find the words to disagree with this can you. ! :D

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BBC NEWS | Education | Call for creationism in science
...but only in order to show that creationism has no scientific basis

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well i can finds words to disagree= ALIENS My Arse.:D

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Whoever gave me bad rep saying religion is only for weak people needs to grow up.

Religion gives many people a good strong foundation and direct in life and I don't see how this is such a big problem. There are much worse things to base your life on, money for example.

At least religions don't tend to praise greed and selfishness, which is what society today seems to be a big fan of.

At the end of the day, you are born, you live, then you die. Everyone dies. That is fact. Who really cares what it is you base the middle bit on as long as it results in you being a decent human being? Even the most deluded religious fanatics I know are at least decent human beings so why should I condemn them for that?

For me, it doesn't matter what people base their standards on as long as the fundamental standards are adhered to. Shame it can't be just like that for everyone else instead of it having to be their way for it to be acceptable.