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It's full council tonight. It's at 7:30 normally, if you're interested.

There's a motion on the table by Labour that celebrates 10 years of the minimum wage. It then goes on to say the council should write to David Cameron and express disgust at a 'Conservative proposed' bill which would allow workers to opt out of the minimum wage.

Quite why local politicians wish to waste time on such motions rather than dealing with local issues which they have influence over I don't know. Regardless, is it really necessary to try and make this a party political matter? The bill is not backed by David Cameron, it's not backed by the overwhelming majority of the Conservative parliamentary group, and it's now even been withdrawn.

I expect that if the Conservatives turn around and say 'No we're not going to waste time when everybody knows it's Conservative policy to back the minimum wage', and vote against the motion, Labour will be quoting 'Conservatives vote against minimum wage' in the newspaper and their leaflets! More games...

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Maybe lots of people would work for below the minimum wage if it was tax free and they got free housing and all the things in life that are needed to survive but that will never happen.Or is there such a world out there??:D:D

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Ah, Communism, (at least we'd get free vodka), even if we couldn't buy a football team at the end of 80 years, (ish), of oppression!

http://planetsmilies.net/person-smiley-9597.gif

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Aye. It's called North Korea. You'd like it there.

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The minimum wage is very much needed, as someone who worked for an employer who was loath to pay a decent wage before the minimum wage was introduced I am speaking from experience. Workers rights need protecting.

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Indeed, but that isn't what I'm posting about. :p

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Andrew - it would be better if you gave the correct information about tonight's council meeting - it is scheduled to start at 7.00pm (not 7.30 as per your post).

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But Labours motion as more to do with the 4th June than sensible debate, a desperate ploy by a desperate bunch of no mark political numpties

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I do apologise, thank-you for updating us! I thought they normally started at 7:30 you see.

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People may wish to read the following two articles before commenting.

Tory bill attempts to water down minimum wage | Politics | guardian.co.uk

Bill to abolish minimum wage withdrawn


As Andrew points out the proposed bill has been withdrawn - however, it is likely to be put back again on 12th June. Isn't that just after the county elections - i wonder whether that has affected the decision to pull the bill now and then reinstate it afterwards.

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Whether this MP decides to put it forward again or not, it's a private members bill rather than Conservative party policy, therefore this 'motion' for this evening looks rather misleading. It looks as if it's about bad mouthing Tories with the election coming up, rather than trying to help local people with local issues.

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We will see if it appears in the local papers/election leaflets in due course though. Perhaps I'm just being cynical!

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Spot on young un:D

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Minimum wage is a very important local issue. I would imagine that Hyndburn has a high proportion of people who benefit (if that's the right way of putting it) from having a minimum wage - they'd probably be working for a lot less if there wasn't one.

I think these things should be discussed in council so that the views of the people can be heard.

However, I do agree that this is probably all down to timing. The county and european elections have a lot to answer for! Labour would get some great headlines out of it if the local Conservatives voted to support a bill that abolished the minimum wage.

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There is also the argument that by setting a minimum wage yoyu give a target for employers to price down to. To quote G Jones its a race to the bottom.

Without a min wage some people would probably be better paid. As it is the companys are effectively mandated that its ok to pay so little.

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You are right entwisi, the minimum wage works both ways, it stops employers paying less than the minimum, but is also used as a tool to downgrade wages, in the current climate, the minimum wage is a good thing rather than a bad one, if jobs were plentiful, it would be the opposite. Any debate at present by either main party, would be seen as deflection from other issues.

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As predicted Labour tried to pin the Conservatives as being anti minimum wage. Peter Britcliffe confirmed that he was indeed in favour of the minimum wage, as were the local and national Conservatives. The motion was voted against. After all what would be the point in writing to David Cameron, only to tell him they still agreed with the policy. I ask you why are the council not writing on every issue? Every issue can't be used for point scoring.

I'd put money on local Labour still coming out with the 'fact' that Conservatives voted against the motion. This would of course would be completely misleading the pubic by hiding the full story... but there is an another election coming up.

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Of course it wasn't you were asking if the proposal should be discussed at local level. As we live in an area where a lot of jobs are shall we say "low pay" then I think it should be discussed by our council. The fact that it has been shelved for the moment means nothing if it is going to be a proposal at some later date.

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It was precisely, because we live in a ''low pay'' that the Labour Group brought this motion to tonight's council meeting. Clare Pritchard and myself had spoken about the Employment Opportunities Bill several times since we both became aware of it, at the begining of May. We had both signed the petition against the bill (which was originally scheduled to have its 2nd reading - on May 15th). The 2nd reading is now scheduled for 12 June.

Andrew maybe you can answer me as to why, you think, if David Cameron does not support the bill, he allowed Christopher Chope to present this bill to parliament in February. Did he just hope that no one would take any notice of it and it would become law?
Maybe it is a case of Tory arrogance not taking into account public opinion.

This is a link to the a Daily Mirror article on the interview
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-sto...5875-21363243/

The Sunday Mirror has run an article on the MPs supporting the Minimum Wage Opt-out Bill employing their wives while supporting a Bill that condemns 'magic circle' jobs.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-sto...5875-21346677/

Which appears to smack of 'do as I say not do as I do'

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As you well know it's a private members bill, not that of the Conservative party. It's not up to David Cameron whether to 'allow' it. You know that the national Conservatives under David Cameron support the minimum wage, and you know that the local Conservatives in Hyndburn do too. The motion was nothing more than posturing as Mr Britcliffe put it.

It's quite rich that in today's climate the Labour party would accuse anybody of not understanding public opinion!

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How much is the minimum wage? In Ontario, it's around $10.00 an hour. And if it is your only income, you probably won't make enough to pay income tax; so, it's as near as damnit tax free. From what I gather from some of the posts on the price of basic stuff, particularly food, a sawbuck goes a bit further over here than it does there. But in terms of the topic, I would agree that local govt. shouldn't be wasting time on stuff like the minimum wage ... but, I don't agree with party politics of any kind at the municipal level.

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The point would have stopped the local Labour party being able to say they were against minimum wage. Lets see if they now lie and still say the Hyndburn Tories are against it in there propaganda leaflets

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Andrew I am quite aware it is a private members bill, but I fail to see why David Cameron has not condemned it, if he does in fact support the minimum wage.

I can assure you that the motion was not posturing and as you were not responsible for writing the motion, you can only hazard your wild (and inaccurate) guesses as to the motives of the Labour Group. The members of the Labour Group feel very passionate about the minimum wage.

Peter Britcliffe has not always supported the minimum wage - I asked a question at a public meeting (in Accrington Town Hall) of all the candidates (seeking election to Parliament for Hyndburn) in the 1997 general. I asked if the candidates supported the introduction of a minimum wage and whether they were prepared to work for £2.50 an hour (which was the wage quoted for a job that had appeared in the Observer the previous weekend). All the candidates - with the exception of Peter Britcliffe- supported the intoductionof a national minimum wage.

Also, as you were at last night's meeting maybe you would like to tell everyone, how Peter Britcliffe changed the Constitution of Hyndburn Borough Council to appoint a Chairperson to chair meetings of Full Council, instead of the Mayor. This demeans the role of the Mayor and reduces them to a mere figurehead. Maybe you agree, with members of Hyndburn Borough Council only being informed of important changes to the constitution being presented to them as they enter the Council chamber for the meeting. A similar thing also occured at the last Council meeting, when the spending for the Civic Theatre was brought to the meeting as a late item. Cllr Dave Parkin was quite correct last night when he said that we were being subjected to the 'Britcliffe Bulldozer'.

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Did you propose a motion to condemn Gordon Brown doubling the tax for those on the minimum wage? Perhaps you wrote one asking for a general election, I certainly hope you signed the petition that was passed around last night. Labour could quite easily have written a motion supporting the minimum wage and you'd have support from across the room, but instead choose to make it party political involving silly letters to just one party leader whom you already know supports the minimum wage!

There is such hypocrisy in local politics, it turns me off never mind those already less involved in politics. Not too long ago the Labour group proposed increasing the council tax on empty properties, at the last moment with no mention of it in the agenda. As it had large financial implications it couldn't just be voted on the fly, so the Conservatives opposed it.

Let's give people the full picture. Last night there was a vote to give the mayor the OPTION whether to chair council meetings. Any mayor who wishes to can still do so. I spoke to some people in the public gallery and they could not understand why Labour were making such a big fuss and demanding a 20 minute adjournment to discuss something that seemed quite simple to them.

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What a load of complete tosh Andrew, I took an item to full council to remove the unjust exemptions on council tax for empty properties. A report accompanied it which was written and costed by the Finance Director of the council, do you think he produced that in 5 minutes? The idea that it was brought to council at the last minute is Britcliffe spin, it was an ammendment to his motion which was brought, fully costed, with full officer participation.

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The Labour Group didn't ask for the 20 minute adjournment by the way, Nick Collingridge did, and he's independant, 10 minutes was ample time to read it but it should have been circulated in advance of the meeting.

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Not a load of tosh. I was at the council meeting where this was proposed. I had the agenda and every piece of agenda document. Nowhere to be seen.

My apologies for saying it was the Labour group who proposed 20 minutes, you still voted for it, which seems strange if you thought 10 minutes was enough!

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Andrew, do you think it is good for local democracy for the opposition councilllors to be given no time to read council papers, which are proposing important changes to the consitution of Hyndburn Council? From your view of the request at last night's meeting, it would appear that you do - so much for freedom of speech and welcome to Peter Britcliffe's totalitarian state.

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I do think 10 minutes was enough time for this particular non-controversial issue. The secretary of the Labour group agrees that it was ample time. While the members of the public in the public gallery thought that 10 minutes was excessive.

Claytonender do you think it's good for local democracy for the opposition to propose council papers with huge financial implications, without distributing them first, and then using the vote in leaflets to gain political advantage?

The agenda and minutes are here: Council I point out that the agenda and attached documents have no mention of the huge change in council tax for empty properties, but if you read the minutes the Labour group suddenly propose the amendment in full. I was as surprised as anybody else as to why a huge financial change was not given in advance to be scrutinised.

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Maybe you should read Clare's post again, she stated that it was an amendement to a motion proposed on the night of the meeting. I circulted all the costings to the councillors present but Peter Britcliffe refused to read the costings. As Clare said, in her post, the proposal had been fully costed out by the Finance Director and I am sure Peter Britcliffe had already been informed of our plans. He could have proposed an adjournment to read our report, but as usual he choose to ridicule his opponents.

The man is a joke, he twists the truth constantly and chooses to ignore the views of the people of Hyndburn, he is demeaning the role of Leader of The Council. Unfortunately the people of Hyndburn have to live with his inflated ego.

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Its not that long ago that a Labour council didn't even bother with debate it was voted through on the nod, Labour have always had the same idea its alright for us to do things but just let you try it and our toys will come out of the pram big style

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Why did you circulate them on the night and not before so that they could be given serious thought. Did you not think the public should know what is happening in council too? Such hypocrisy. Labour are guilty of the same things you accuse the Conservatives of. People in glass houses..

Can't you just work together instead of constantly trying to trip the Tories up? :mad:

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Because Andrew Labour is always right, they're getting on with the job, when they are talking we're safe, its when they stop talking and start doing is when the problems start, aka Blair and Brown

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Andrew, I'm not the secretary of the Labour Group, I'm the Deputy Leader. I'm glad you agree that huge financial decisions shouldn't be just put forward at full-council. I trust that you mentioned this to Peter, when, at the last Full-Council we received on our desks as we sat down Peters proposal to spend at total of 400k on the Civic Theatre.

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You're missing the point. If you disagree with the fact that he does it, then don't do it yourself or you lose all credibility.

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if one can do it .. then the other can ......

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Andrew. This is the first national debate we have put forward so you're way off the mark. Your Conservatives have put forward 50 or 60 at various meetings in 12 months. You have Cllr Britcliffe have both pressed Greg Pope on early day motions regularly and several campaigns that have no connection to Hyndburn. Do you think you can kid the general public.

I agree, I pretty much always stick to local. I have always thought we do not give up enough time to wider issues that affect Hyndburn. This political debate is healthy and is based on a motion that is relevant to the people of Hyndburn. I think they should be more. Councillor Britcliffe supported the minimum wage but Councillor Collingridge didn't. So it was not petty politics in the end was it?

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Do you mean like Cllr Britcliffe does EVERY meeting! Andrew, you are quite frankly a bizarre young man.

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Which numbered excuse is this one Andrew?

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In other words: 'They did it, so we're going to do it too!'

Unsurprisingly you still do not get it.

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I did not say that. I said there has to be a positive reason. We do not have enough debates national/Hyndburn importance.

Why did the Tories bring Post Office Privatisation to Full Council? Don't tell me, that was different? We brought Crown Post Office's against the Government at a EGM. Andrew I have criticised Government policy openly. Would the Tories bring an anti Cameron debates to Council?

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The minimum wage itself is quite ineffective, The people who rely on it are placed within a poverty trap.

I see the politics have started the great AccyWeb division again...

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To quote from your blog...'All i know is i dont revise enough.'

Perhaps if you looked at the broader picture, or at least supplied evidence to back up your whimsical claims, you might have a better chance of being taken seriously.

You may even revise your opinion as to the merits of the minimum wage.;)

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£5.73 is a more preferable bait to have on your trap, than £1.50 per hour say, for the exactly the same work.;)

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To quote the date from that blog entry ' 20-04-2008 '. I find that 13 months old ;).

Hmmm, a person working for minimum wage will generally be in reciept of working tax credits. If that person was to find work decreased from 30 hours to 20 they would have the net income made back up with tax credits. This means that the worker has no incentive to get work back for 30 hours creating a poverty trap.

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There are hundreds of thousands of workers in this country that doesn't apply to.

If you can't be more specific, you were probably wise not to give evidence for your original post.

I look forward to seeing an improvement in your logic in the future, and that you've used the last thirteen months wisely.;)

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A minimum wage is a floor for the employers in which they can pay there employees. In large buisnesses this tends not be a problem, however the smaller buisnesses might stuggle. The minimum wage increases the amount of money within the government coffers. So the money is often placed within welfare benefits. Yes there are Hundreds of thousands whom Working Tax Credits need not apply to. However to those that are applicable then the fact that there hours are made up means they need not work the 30 hours and can work 20 where they will get the rest made up. This creates not incentive for the worker to drag themselfs out thus creating a trap.

Prehaps i do need revision, however i didnt study this subject 13 months ago.

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As somebody who worked for an employer who was loath to pay a decent days wage for a decent days work before the minimum wage was introduced I can say with confidence that it was well overdue when it was introduced. Not everybody is entitled to claim Working Tax Credits and when this is the case the minimum wage is a blessing. Not all small businnesses are struggling, a lot them are well established it is just that their owners seem loath to pay their employees a decent wage!!!

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I've read that four times, trying to make some sense of it.

I can't.

A floor?

Not a very recognised business term, trust me.

Revision isn't what you need after all.

I think the need is more basic.

;)

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Exactly Bernie.

The minimum wage is a different thing in the world of reality, than it might appear to some of those who have yet to experience it, and chose to speak in meaningless piffle.

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I have to disagree with you that all workers on the minimum wage get working tax credits. My husband earns 5p an hour more than minimum wage (for a 30 hour week) but we do not get any working tax credits and we both pay income tax.

In fact working tax credits are an incentive for some employers to pay minimum wage becasue they know that the taxpayers will make it up to a living wage (for those who are entitled to receive working tax credits) and it is hard luck for those who aren't entitled to them.

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Yes the bitter experience of an employer extracting the urine has a lot to answer for. Put it this way his family never went short but my goodness it came about through the hard graft of the workers for a crap wage.:(

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Nickelson could have perhaps justified that low wages per se are a poverty trap, but he didn't.

Given the choice of being paid £1.50 per hour by some unscrupolous employer, or an enforced by law minimum wage of £5.73, l know which financial bait I'd want on my trap.

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A Floor = Price Floor, the minimum something can be charged generally by law and within the case of the minimum wage, its the minimum wage that can be paid.

It might not be a buisness term but its an economic term ;).

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I only did Economic O-level, which equates to one of your modern day degrees, but in those days we were taught not to use half terms.;)

Since we aren't a student forum, perhaps you might find more success on here using clearer, more concise, English, rather than abridged terms you've come across in class.;)

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By the way, I sort of understand where you were coming from with floor, meaning base, pricing/bidding floor, though only using half a term wasn't very clear, and I disagree with your logic afterwards, if I understood the gobbledigook correctly.

It might make it easier to read if you distinguish between the correct use of there and their, for a start, for us poor readers.

Please revise.;)

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O-Levels where phased out for GCSEs wernt they ?. Big step down there ffrom a modern day degree. :p

Also please would you care to enlighten me with the correct term for future reference. :)

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To be honest its 2 a.m and im quite tired so i will continue this tommorow. The time is my excuse for lack of grammar. ;)

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Yes they were.

I'm lucky enough to have done O-levels, and later a G.C.S.E., after I'd finished my B.A. (Hons.), so I'm probably in a better position than yourself to judge the academic merits and quality of those examinations.;)

Personally I wouldn't have used the term at all.

Mainly because what I had to say wouldn't have been meaningless waffle.

As was posted earlier, perhaps with time, and on entering the world of reality, outside of further education, you might have a differing view as to the benefits of the minimum wage, or at least put up a more coherent argument against it.;)

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Funnily enough it's two a.m. here too...and I never make excuses for myself.;)

:D

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I don't think you're being very fair Garinda. Your posts read with quite a condescending manner. You know very well that even people with far more experience than yourself argue for and against the minimum wage. I do not agree with Nickleson on the minimum wage itself, but I do understand exactly what he means by price floor, despite having never done an economics GCSE/A-level. It appears pretty logical to me.

Nickleson you mentioned tax credits, which is an important point for low paid workers. What I'd like to see is low paid workers completely lifted out of the taxation system. We recently saw income tax of everybody on the minimum wage double from 10% to 20% which just seems quite ridiculous to me as it hurts the lowest paid in society the most.

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This is starting to get like a play ground argument :(

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Well if you can understand the poorly punctuated, rambling gobbledigook, perhaps it's just me, so I apologise.

Perhaps you've just got use to making sense of such unfathomable nonsense.;)

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No, in the light of day, this still makes very little sense.

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When you too enter the real world, outside the confines of academic Hull, you may also realise that life sometimes isn't 'fair'.

I think it's perfectly fair to challenge unsubstantiated, glib comments, and ask for evidence.

Hopefully evidence that might be clear, and understandable to all.

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I'm not saying at all that "if they can do it, so can we". We didn't do it at all. I worked with officers for months on this proposal, it was fully costed, itemised and a report produced but it was an AMMENDMENT not a motion. People put ammendments to proposals at full council all the time and I don't object to that but to come with a proposal 5 minutes before is verging on deceitful. I know that a presentation was scheduled to come to full council regarding the Civic Theatre weeks in advance but still the report still only came at the last minute. Its not financially responsible to be expected to vote on spending 400k in 10 minutes with no firm indication where the money is coming from, in fact its financially reckless and I'm not prepared to act fast and loose with Hyndburn tax payers money just so Peter can gets his kicks from seeing his face in the paper.

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Starting:eek::eek::eek:

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No life isn't fair, I'm aware of that without patronisation thank-you. I just happen to think that in a community you could criticise somebody without needing to condescend them. Especially when you're using lack of experience, when much more experienced men than yourself think the minimum wage is bad - are you suggesting that they're correct? No of course not, it would not be a convincing argument to suggest somebody is correct solely on the basis of their current educational status or how long they've been in the 'real world'. It's about the argument put forward.

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What is this living in the real world that keeps cropping up in relation to students, interesting, thought i might ask due to coming across the term several times.

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It could be seen as condescension on your part, when you refer to my 'experience', when in reality you haven't a clue as to what that might be.;)

Good luck with doorstepping.

I'm sure people will be thrilled with the charmless presumptions you seem to make.

;)

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Earning enough money to provide for yourself and those close to you, and all that that entails, such as paying the various associated taxes, at a wild guess.

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I don't need to know what experience you have or haven't got, because I'm not attacking you for it. If you are the most experienced man on the planet, then I take my hat off, my statement must be incorrect. :)

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In some areas he just might be :rolleyes::D

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Then why refer to it, since you don't have any knowledge of it?

Very sloppy.

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Not at all, given the context. I know you have great experience in rarely dealing with context and actually commenting on the general argument - favouring changing topic when you're caught out. ;) Keep digging!

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It isn't just confined to those in further education.

I was informed that you excitedly tried to recruit someone I know in a 'get rich quick' pyramid scheme, claiming all involved would be rich beyond their wildest dreams in a few short months.

Sadly the person I know didn't participate.

How did it go?

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The truth is you have no idea as to what experience I may, or may not have, and by referring to it weakened your already weak argument.

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So weak that you still cannot bring yourself to debate the crux of the argument, instead favouring a pedantic sideroad. Nevermind ;)
Posted via Mobile Device

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Perhaps more people here would've been more able to understand your gripe, if you'd posted the correct time of the meeting.

Sloppy once again.

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For heavens sake you two call it a draw:D

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Couldn't agree more. Wages are a function of the free market, not government mandates. No matter where I worked, I made a point of making myself invaluable to my employer and was always rewarded for my efforts. Government mandates most often result in layoffs.

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You are in the fortunate position of probably being sought by many villages.

Not everyone, particularly in a free market economy, is so lucky.

That's why trade unions were founded, and latterly employment laws introduced, to protect those who otherwise could be easily replaced by unscupolous employers, if they didn't agree to work for a pittance.

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Oh, Puleeze!!! Luck has nothing to do with it. One should always prepare for the current economy. If you cannot hack it, don't be surprised when someone else beats you to the punch.

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I guess these 700 people, and the people about to be made redundant at B.A., 40,600 of which are being offered unpaid leave, as well as the countless other people who are worried about their job security, just weren't lucky, or weren't invaluable enough.

700 IT staff to be made redundant at RBS - 22 May 2009 - Computing

Luckily there are always villages looking for an idiot, with the appropriate skills needed.

So some will always be in demand.

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I really perplexed here to the relevance of what your trying to imply or state.

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You'd better just keep your gun trained out of the peephole in your bunker, and keep an eye out for those damned red Ruskies.;)

http://www.pacificspirit.org/news/up...ett-729655.jpg

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Try not to be so pathetic. Some companies are not run well. So what? There is always a market for good employees. Even in a bad economy. Do things always go well? No. But government interference does not help the situation. The free market is by definition creative destruction. You may not like it.....but it does work - and has brought great prosperity and upward mobility to more people than any other system.

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I suppose the millions of Britons who were out of work in the last Great Depression of the 1920/30's, like the millions in a similar position today, just weren't 'good' enough to be employed.

What's the weather like in Cloud Cuckoo Land like at the moment?

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Perhaps you prefer what Benito Mussolini called Corporatism. I call it economic fascism. If you think the government has the solution to the problems we face today, you are the one living in Cloud Cuckoo Land. If taxes and regulations were reasonable and limited, you would see far healthier companies. The worth of employees has little to do with the current situation.

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Why do you consider or put so much emphasis on people not living in the real world and i quote cloud cuckoo, it also appears your always having a go at individuals in one form or another in terms of intelligence and quoting all your qualifications etc. I feel people whom attack in this way appear to me full of self importance. Not impressive at all.

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How would you define 'reasonable', if you were being more specific?

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Frankly I haven't the slightest desire to impress you, or anyone else on here.

If per chance I did inadvertently impress you, I'd consider it time to throw in the towel.

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Don't get me wrong though, your input on here causes much hilarity to many people.:)

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Glad to see your back to your fighting best G:rolleyes:

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For example - the U.S. has the second highest corporate tax rate in the world at 39.3%. An abomination any way you look at it. As you surely know, only individuals pay taxes - hence, corporations merely collect same from either their shareholders, employees or customers. The shareholder will receive lower dividends on his investment, customers will pay higher prices and employees will see fewer raises and jobs. Likewise, onerous regulations cost businesses dearly.

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In the UK companies also pay tax-it is called corporation tax.

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I wouldn't worry too much about the "real world"; it doesn't exist. It's a meaningless term, often tossed in to an argument in order to undercut, or ridicule, someone else's argument.

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Oh, get real.

:D

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Duplicate post.

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It does anger me when this is thrown out at students Eric, and is simply not true from my experience. Most students do take out a job whilst studying. Can only go by my own son's record on this .... and try telling me it is not the real world. Sorry to bore you, but:

2 Years at McDonalds whilst doing A-levels. (health and safety certificate gained)
During the break before Uni ... very short period feeding the ovens at Hollands Pies, then working for a Newspaper Distributor.
Stock taking at the textile company I worked for and checking all dyed stock under a light meter for colour matches (boring)
1st year at Uni: Working in the student's bar and dealing with bouncers, rowdiness, etc. Also organising sports and social events for the students.
2nd/3rd year: Working at Blockbusters where they made him Manager for a year whilst he was searching for a job post-graduate before going back for his Masters in Planning.
Worked three days per week for a Planning Consultants whilst taking his Masters before they offered him an appointment on gaining this .. he is still there.. he is now 26, and all these jobs have taught him quite a bit of how to deal with people and varying situations !

Ok .. you don't have to read all this ... but 90% of his friends have this sort of history whilst studying.

My granddaughter worked in Ainsleys (bit like Greggs) from 16, now doing night shift at Sainsburys whilst stacking shelves and doing A-Levels.

Please do not tell me that students do not get experience in the 'real world' just gets up my nose.

Sorry. :p:mad: