European poll.
 

Following on from another thread, which is discussing Britain's relationship to the European Union, I thought if we could have a referendum, as we were promised, how would you vote?

Re: European poll.
 

To leave!

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Vote for... what?

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I would attend the polling station on my flying pig and vote to leave the EU.

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Did you mean to attach a poll gary?

edit: nm its there now!

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To stay in Europe.

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If you are saying a vote on wether to leave then I would say it would be like leaving a card game because you don't like the rules...then joining another card game only to find out you don't like the rules..and end up playing on yer own.

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What does the third option mean? Surely, you can only be in (as per the present 27 countries) or out (as per Norway and Switzerland)? There is no third option in the EU!

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There is one.

I've voted in it..;)

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I hope you are happy with the wording.

I tried my best to be fair, and give all the possible (simple) options I could think of.

Leave, carry on as it is, or try and extradite ourselves from the political union and still have some economic alliance.

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If we left the EU we'd still have economic ties and could still form free trade agreements just like many other countries not in the EU do. Does answer 1 suggest no economic ties/trade, or are 1 and 3 the same?

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It's a simple poll on here.. but most people would have their sensible heads on if it did come to a national referendom on leaving the EU..I for one did not like the idea in the first place but to leave would be lurching towards a very aggressive national attitude..I don't like the looks of it.

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By the way, it isn't a secret ballot.

Bernard, you've voted to keep the status quo as it is. Are you happy with a system that allows a Romanion to enter Britain and claim social benefits here, and also to claim benefits for children still back in Romania, all quite legally?

Personally I think that stinks, and proves we are seen as the soft touch of this political/economic/whatever union.

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So being "sensible" means agreeing with you, does it? And as for leaving giving us an "aggressive national attitude", do you mean like those snarling nationalists, the Norwegians and the Swiss? :rolleyes:

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I am undecided whether or not to register for a vote this time.
The form has arrived and I can't even bring myself to open the envelope.
Democracy is dead. Whoever gets in works for their own interests and for a common purpose, which is not for the good of the population.

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I hope on reflection you do register, even if you can't vote for anyone, any spoilt papers are counted.

If you do register you have a choice what you do later, which would be taken away if you decide now not to bother.

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I agree, Norway, Switzerand, Iceland and a few other countries aren't in the EU, but have trading ties, so surely the votes for 1 and 3 should be combined? ;)

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I''m in favour of this Country being in the European Union/Community. I'm certainly not in favour of abuses such as you mention.

I don't see why anomalies such as these can't be sorted out without resorting to the drastic step of leaving Europe.

Re: European poll.
 

Thanks for answering.

Sadly I don't see much evidence of any mainsteam political party addressing the abuses we as a nation suffer.

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The Swiss and Norwegians?.. you can't compare them to Britian...I was going to add that some European countries that are not in the EU do have a certain advantage..but only as far as they are regarded as small fry that get along by selling goats cheese or have "special" banking services.. or on export of Christmas trees.. this is the reality of Europe..I say this country would not do well if we left the EU..a go it alone policy is not reality.

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We did quite well up until 1973.

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Yes we did..and that is what this is really all about..if we had stayed out of the "Glorious Reunion" of Europe then this debate would not be going on.. but the massive Tory support along with the media lead us into something we just cannot walk away from.

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Yes we can.

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can you please explain "How" also "Why" they have not been long ago?:confused:

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I cringe when I hear that.
Some you tube clips play it backwards - it's quite chilling:eek:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqALd...eature=related

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In answer to your pm.:rolleyes:

Options 1 and 3 are as written.

You must decide for yourself.

Soon you'll be voting in your first General Election, and I won't be there to hold your hand, and help make sense of the voting ballot.

:D

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I won't be voting in the poll then if you don't wish to make it clear :) I want to be out of the EU but believe that you can still have economic ties as many countries do.

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No you can't if your a farmer that relies on 80% of their income from the C.A.P...and no you can't when and if the currency betting boys in the City decide to make an run on the pound.

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I can't for the life of me understand why, on the one hand we are told that devolution is good, fairer, and more democratic, with people at grassroot level having more power locally, as seen by the Welsh/Scottish parliament, and also the breaking up of the U.S.S.R, and the emergence of independent countries from under the cloak of eastern block rule, and on the other hand we are supposed to think its good that we now have another very costly level of government, with national powers being given over to one big super power state, the E.U.

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Then you should have voted for opion 3.;)

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Well option 3 you said was to become more independent of the EU not leave it. Nevermind :rolleyes:

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Yes you can.

As for economic subsidies, that encourages and pays for food and drink that will sometimes never be eaten or drank, that is morally, and economically wrong.

On this I'm with the free market economists. If you can't produce something that someone is willing to purchase, then you should cease production, and not rely on monies raised from elsewhere to artifically subsidise you.

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With the so called financial genius at the helm, why have we had a run on the pound by our so called partners. :confused:
If farmers were allowed to grow for self sufficiency and not be tied to EU rules, subsidies would not be required.
CAP is something we all pay into and gain little benefit.

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This country is not under the rule of any right wing/left wing super power.. it is not real..to compare the EU to the Soviet Union is not worth talking about..there have never been any regulations or laws imposed on this country or any other country in the EU that cannot be disregarded or vetoed by any country..non..this country has taken on the agreements signed in 1992 and further rattified those agreements in 1999 .. but no natoin or Union can tell us what to do and that's the reality.. if this or any Government decide to play along with these agreements then it's down to to them.

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We have the situation that people unhappy with the verdicts of a British court, can now take their appeal further, to a European court, and their rulings then take precendence over British law.

This situation wasn't envisaged when we voted to enter the Common (economic) Market in the seventies.

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An appeal may be taken further to the european court but it is not true that any ruling by that court must to be applied by a British government..there have been cases where this government have disregarded european court rulings and there always will be because we are not ruled by the EU.. some seem to think we are but they are poorly informed.

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They may be "abuses" to you and me but they're not "abuses" to our new masters in Brussels. It is perfectly legal within EU rules to come to this country from any other EU country without let or hinderance and to claim benefit for children in your country of origin. So, as they're not "abuses" there's very little chance of them being sorted out.

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So far the only two people who want to remain in the EU and are happy as it currently is are both Labour councillors. Heh..

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It does seem anomaly, to vote to keep the status quo, and to accept that there are abuses.

Abuses both major parties seem happy to ignore, and hence the increased support for extremism.

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I just had to check who you meant.

I thought Cllr. Mancie and Cllr. Cashy were sticking to party guidelines.

:D

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Well at least they've had the balls to do it... it's pretty easy for those who have not been elected and are not involved in making decisions to abstain or vote for whatever takes their fancy.. what say the elected Tories who are quick to stick their badge onto something but never deleliver?

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Well, they wouldn't be Tory councillors would they, as none of 'em have the bottle to join Accyweb. :rolleyes:

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You forget Peter Britcliffe has joined Accy Web, and posted twice, under the username of HisMaster'sVoiceHBC, or some such nonsense, and has confirmed it is indeed himself.;)

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The whole EU ignores financial abuses on a monumental scale, involving billions of our hard-earned taxes. That's why its own auditors have refused to sign off EU accounts for 12 years running. Hardly an "anomaly" that can be "sorted out" in Bernard's words!

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Yes, but we don't talk about that, because Andrew will start getting upset! :D

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Why? is it cos he is black? :)

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I was at Accy Railway Station this afternoon and happened to notice that that old La-De-Dar's nightclub conversion to Loft-style flats is nearing completion. The name for this residential complex is "Gladstone Heights", no doubt to reflect it's original function as the Accy Liberal Club, built at the time when William Gladstone was the great leader of the Liberal Party.

The old Accy Con Club is also due for a major rebuild, although god only knows when that will happen. I wonder, if when it does, it will have a similar title to reflect it's illustrious political history. The name I have in mind is "Britcliffe Bottoms".

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One thing I will say about the two people who have voted for the EU...they haven't come up with one good reason to stay in between 'em!

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That's got quite an allitervative ring to it.

I could seen it embroidered on the back of jackets....like the Pink Ladies in Grease.

Though I shudder to think what the initiation ritual would be, if you wanted to join.

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If were are supposed to be in a european union and the same rules apply to all members, why don't do'nt those romanians claim their benefits in germany, why is it any different over here.

The sooner the jerry's and the frogs start fighting each other for the third time the better. Then we can let them get on with it, and become the Gt Britain we were in 1914 and 1939, instead of being europes dustbin.

Retlaw.

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It's true..a few of what you lot call Romainans one week are Gypos the week after..according to you lot in Accy you do seem to suffer a higher than average crime rate..but that is rubbish...you blame all things on this government, the EU, Romainains, Poles..anything or anyone..take a look at your street at night were the aggro comes from.. it's your own.

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Turkey's attempting, and will in all probability succeed, to gain entry to the E.U. Which is more than a lttle odd, as the majority of the country is in Asia.

Are we to look forward to 71 million new members, that Turkey will bring to the party, also being eligible to claim social benefits here in Britain, and for any dependent offspring back in Turkey?

The whole situation is ludicrous.

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The possible inclusion of Turkey into the Union is a worry..on the one hand it could be benificial to have an outright Muslim nation in the EU ..this could curtial the onslaught of Muslim extremists from Asia and the Middle East and you could argue that it would make the EU the "daddy" of this world in terms of defence.

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what baffles me is since we entered the E.U. both Consevative n Labour have been in power, yet still all the faults we all whinge about are still here, these faults with the system are not as obvious if ya live elsewhere in Europe, least that is my experience, "WHY" cos other countries pay em sod all if they were to descend upon em, other countries find ways around the smoking ban, n on it goes, in Spain even the influx from Morocco ( not E.U.) get sod all n have to return home or leave Spain after 9 months, i think you all should be looking closer to Home to apportion blame, its the ******* here that have cocked up big time.:rolleyes:

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Thought the smoking ban was something that had been imposed by individual governments and had nothing to do with the EU? As for freedom of movement, that applies across all 27 states of the EU, so Romanians would be entitled to enter Spain and beg, claim soical security etc. Possibly their state benefits aren't as attractive as ours? You certainly see plenty of Romanian beggars in Rome...almost made me feel like I was walking down Market Street! ;)

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i think royboy or junetta will verify they get sod all benefits by just entering spain wyn. plus many basic jobs like buses, postal, taxi, etc they employ nationals.

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Don't get many romanian beggers down my neck of the woods.. mostly english, scots, irish (or bods from the west country)... like I say perhaps we should look closer to home rather than blame the EU ..but then it's not really a good story for the national papers.

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take a walk around accy centre, more often than not its our chavs begging fer money fer Bus,cup tea,Phone Call, or fags.:rolleyes:

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Perhaps it you that keeps them away.

I was forever chasing an old Romanian women (she was probably younger than me) with a broom, down Knightsbridge.

Perhaps you live in part of the city with slim pickin's.;)

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Well so far 78% think we should leave, and they seem to be from a wide section of people, some of whom in the past may have hinted at differing political preferences.

Say what you like, it is an important isue to the greater majority of the electorate, and mainstream political parties aren't addressing the people's concerns.

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...and from my own point of view I'm not exhibiting some irrational xenophobia towards Romanians, or any other nationality come to that.

I'm sure if I was in their shoes, given the same circumstances, I'd be here as well. Milking a very easy welfare system.

My problem is with the lack of concern from politicans that this is happening at all, and will continue to happen, at least until the pot runs dry, and the system is bankrupt.

Super states, engulfing individual nations, have happened before, but they are usually created by the use of force.

This present circumstance has arrived by stealth.

The British people certainly never voted for what we have today. Which certainly isn't a purely economic trade alliance.

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just for a quite moment I was pondering over the thought that Great Britain was a place of refuge for the oppressed and victimised people in this world..but your post just about kicked any thoughts of another "Great Britain" out the window.

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...and your naive, sentimental drivel caused me to smile.

Such is life.

You really don't see the broader picture do you?

A system that is being abused will cause resentment, and a rise in support for extremism.

If a nation feels threatend, it is unlikely to extend welcoming arms to genuine people in need of refuge, rather than economic migrants, who are currently finding Britain such an alluring destination, because it's seen as a soft touch.

Don't even try to play the race card.

I've done more than my fair share in the fight against real, rather than supposed racism...almost as much as you've done for the brewing industry.

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or to put it bluntly "Great Britain" = Worlds Biggest Sucker.:rolleyes:

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...and if it was your business she'd decided was to be her regular begging pitch, you'd have let her stay?

Stay, as you watched your business go down the pan, because people crossed over the street, rather than pass her, and takings dwindled, and eventually could have closed, resulting in job losses, and lack of revenue for the government which funds the welfare state through taxation?

Stay, as she sent her kids inside robbing you and your customers.

Stay, as her and her brood went to the toilet in the doorway to your business? Nevermind a welcome mat for your customers, here's some fresh Romanian turds to greet you.

More fool you.

Yes I did do battle, chased her, shouting matches, the lot, an eventually I won, but she'd only go and set up her pitch somwhere else, on someone elses doorstep, until the system changes.

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And your idea of seeing the "broader picture" is one of chasing people off with a broom.. or in the case of some of our more aggresive countrymen with a good old kicking... I'd have a bet you would not have got the broom out if faced with a 16 stone ****ed up jock.:)

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There are problems, but these are problems that if the will was there could be sorted. And in my view doesn't mitigate against the concept of the European Union, which I think is a correct concept.

I'm essentially an internationalist, and we have seen all too frequently in the last century what can happen when countries adopt an insular stance.

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Do you honestly think the will is there Bernard? cos i don't.

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Insular, or expansive. Same results historically.

Russia and Germany, two ends of the political spectrum. Same outcome, mass genocide, much misery all round.

Internationalism doesn't take into account one major flaw. The irrationality of mankind.

Idealism, rather than solving actual problems in the here and now, is fine, but very often when you throw good and bad into the same pot, the result isn't good nor bad, it's just one big mediocre mess. Such as we have now with the E.U.

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One term of government, maybe an excuse.

Three terms, no excuse.

Even on this forum there is evidence people are unhappy with the situation, and fearful of the future, yet no mainstream party is addressing those very real concerns.

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you could be correct..but then again you could say we have been suckers for centuries and the rest of the world have been takin the pee out of us..but at least we have a reputation in this world of being people of honour... I fear that the idea of a Great Britain is threatened more from within...some people that claim to have the best interests of this country at heart are the ones that look after themselvles, and they will do more damage to our way of life than any romanians could do.

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not really a problem..if you don't like it then put your x on the box marked BNP or some other mob..simple really, until you are the one they don't like the look of.

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As stated earlier, if you'd took the trouble to read it, I detest everything the B.N.P. stand for, and will never vote for them. However, whilst mainstream politics turns a blind eye to the very real abuses of the welfare state etc., then more and more people will vote for them.

History is repeating itself. When people feel threatened they seek scapegoats, even though it isn't those targeted who are to blame, but the sysyem that has allowed fear to prosper.

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Before you turn into a Sun reading, little Englander, Tory loudmouth, who wants to put the superlative 'great' back into Britain.

Let's just clear up that the great in front of Britain, is an adjective referring to our size, and that we are indeed larger than Britannia Minor, which is northwestern France.

;)

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It's ot really any use in going on about how much people hate the BNP and would never vote for them..yet in the same breath people are saying they "understand" the reasons for voting for a party who's sole aim is to rid this country of anyone that is non-white..no if's or buts if you are not deemed as white then you can't even join these political party's..anyone who says they "understand" the reasons why anyone leans towards these groups are taking what may seem an easy way out but would end in disaster.
there is no excuse..it's plain and simple.. there are some that want things all lovely and rosey but it don't work that way..no sitting on the fence..take it or leave it.

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I'm all for liberalism as opposed to isolationist protectionism but there is no reason why any other country should have the ability to decide our domestic policy. That is for our parliament to do. There is never going to be a perfect voting system but what we have here in this country is a damn sight more accountable than having Brussels decide on what happens within our supposed sovereign nation. I cannot accept this tireless 'we can sort it from within'. It'd be a good argument if that was the mutual feeling of the governments of other member states and of course that of the commission, the unelected body of the EU that reigns supreme over policy initiation. The reality is that the vested interests of the EU want an ever closer political integration of Europe, whether we like it, want it, or not.

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yes reference to "Great" Britain is geographic..but over many years it has become to mean something else..you can stick France up your whatamecallit as I've heard you have done in the past... but unlike you I don't like the slippery slope ;) history tells us that to become a nation of intolorence leads to murder, genocide, and any other perversion you can think up.

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i detest the BNP wi a passion Mancie, yet i understand why some reach fer em, if ya can't grasp it yer on a loser mate.

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maybe on a loser Cashy but I learnt your on one side or the other..they don't take any prisoners.

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anyone wi a grain of sense knows that......... but you n i both know theres quite a few numpties about.

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yep..and that is why people who are marked down as "do gooders" dig in.

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Don't be so stupid.

Of course you can see the reasons why people might be tempted to extremism at either end of the political spectrum, even if you can't see the appeal, only the dangers, yourself.

History could very well repeat itself. The German people felt downtrodden, as well as hungry, after the punative measures that werre imposed on them after the Treaty of Versailles.

The situation was ripe for exploitation by extremist parties, who offered scapegoats and the promise of a brighter future. At one time the extreme left could have taken control, just as the right ultimately did under Hitler.

Just because you can see what's happening doesn't mean you agree with it, and shouldn't try and stop it from happening.

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know what yer saying, used to be the same meself,then the penny dropped, that can be as dangerous as the numpties.

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It's all gone off the original poll..prety obvious that most people would like to leave the EU right now today...so whatever happens with the Lisbon treaty, a treaty that may have a few admenments but is near enough sorted.. the most of the population don't like it... when the tories get in power next year is it their manifesto to repeal any agreements signed in Lisbon?

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Racist and homophobic in one post.

My, my, aren't you the very picture of a liberal, all welcoming, embracing diversity, modern Briton.

I always find it wise to practice what I preach. Then you can't be labelled a hypocrite, you hypocrite.

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Mancie, why do you never learn?

Everytime you resort to your crass abuse, any good things you might have said also look like they aren't credible.

Sadly you're a fool.

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I never said people will not be swayed or influenced by any party..OK I meant I don't like the look of ..or would like to be involved with a Nation that left the EU because of some gripe about romanians or stuff pelted out by the Daily Mail..I think if we seperated from Europe we could end up in more desperation.. and end up with an extreme right/left wing voted in goverment that would lead to destruction.

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That makes no sense.

You'd be wiser going to bed, and fingering through Barbara Cartland.

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get to F838rlk.. I don't say good things..and if you want to point out that fact then OK..get yer handjob off the butler ..go bed and leave me alone you plum!

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I rest my case.

The sad thing is when you're sober you probably regret undermining your own arguments, with resorting to imbecilic name calling.

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I'd like to be able to vote but don't think I know enough about the situation to cast either way. Like garinda I have no party line to toe, however unlike garinda (and many of the posters in this thread) I don't know a sufficient amount about the history, purpose and current practice of the EU.

My gut says that the 'we were fine before we joined the EU' argument doesn't work; that the consequences of being involved with European treaties for so long cannot be eradicated - nor can Albion's independent empire be rebuilt - by merely severing ties. Perhaps the only way to rectify the current situation where seemingly Britain achieves very little from its EU membership is to put more focus upon it; I (and I'm sure most British people) haven't a clue what our MEP does or what any representative of Britain does in Brussels.

Should Great Britain become independent of the EU, would we be able to have beneficial economic ties with countries in the EU or would treaties forbid it?
The lack of money being spent by the British public on British produce does worry me (especially as far as the car industry is concerned), would this be a situation improved by independence from the EU?

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Good post, Shakey, the whole EU question does raise a lot of questions which are going unanswered. I'd like to hear from some of our members who live in other European countries about this theory of Cashy's that it's not necessarily the EU that's the problem, it's the fact that we meekly obey all the rules, while other flaunt them.

One thing that does stand out a mile, though - the two people who have voted wholeheartedly in favour of the EU have not come up with one concrete benefit of membership between them (apart from some airy fairy theorising about being "an internationalist"). You're going to have to do better than that, Bernard, if you want to convert us! ;)

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On second thoughts, Bernard, I'll let you off not completing your essay on "Why I Love the EU" as I've just seen a photo of where you were last night (and I, sadly, wasn't)! ;)

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Hell there was some activity on this thread last night, I've ticked the third option, the EU would be okay if it was used as it was set up to do, for trading purposes, not to run our lives with stupid rules made by unelected bureaucrats.

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I was doing my bit for internationalism in Oldham.

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Sounds like you want something like NAFTA .... we have a free trade agreement with Mexico, but that didn't stop us from making it mandatory for Mexican tourists to have a visa as well as a passport .... or from telling Bush to go screw himself when he wanted us to join the coalition forces to invade Iraq. Still think it might be a good idea if you guys looked to having closer ties with what Churchill called the "English speaking peoples" ... Europe is a dogs breakfast; always has been; probably always will be. I never did think of England as part of Europe. Ah, well, you guys can sort it out for yourselves ... none of my business, eh.

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The problem is not Europe. The problem is how our country works.
Our own policies decide the welfare system. I don't see other countries just giving out benefits to other europeans willy nilly like we do.

Europe is not a problem, the way we manage it is!

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I am happy with the current situation for at least this reason this provides Greater protection for workers from exploitation by employers limits the hours that can be worked. Ensures greater equality and protection of social inclusion.

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Does the nationality of your current partner help colour your views on this issue?

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My wife's Engllsh but she has her own ideas.
Dont tell Garinda anything about your family or circumstances. He can, will and does use it whenever he gets the chance.