Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

I was watching an interview on the box the other day (BBC1 News) and could not help feeling really riled by the laziness of both interviewer and interviewee who over-employed that linguistic crutch so common today; "y'know". Is it really asking too much of these overpaid and underempoyed simpletons to actually use the language, as opposed to abusing it at every available opportunity? Of course, what makes the matter worse, adding insult to injury, is the attempt to make a virtue out of their inability?

Thinking about it. It seems to me that the language is a fairly accurate mirror of society. Consider, prior to 1968 and the summer of love and protest. Society was a good deal more buttoned up than it subsequently has become. Recieved Pronunciation was the standard of spoken English in this country to which most attempted to aspire. Gorgeously rounded vowels and sounded aspirants and percussives were the hallmark of the upwardly socially mobile. Whereas, dropped aitches and glottal stops were the signs of a background of economic hardship and academic underachievement.

Since 1968 society has shifted to become more mid atlantic in its attitudes and sadly the language has followed suit. Of course, the trendy liberal/left equate this shift with the growth and development of a language that is living and culturally vibrant. Having little appreciation of, or liking for, the culture and heritage of our nation, they would, wouldn't they?

And so it is that we see the entry into the language of the abomination that is known as Estuarine English. At best a regional accent that, through the prominence of the South East as the driver of the economy, has come to dominate all that is produced by the broadcast media. I am sick to death of hearing the word 'drawing' mis-prononced as 'drawring'. I loathe the use of the word 'innit', particularly as it is used by the immigrant population as a sort of catch all 'Don't you agree/QED/see what I mean' expostulatory, exhortative and interrogatory, all rolled into one, speaking only of the lack and deficiency of the speakers vocabulary.

There are other words and phrases that excite similar distaste and ire, here are a few.
Feel free to add your own

'what it is, right' at the commencement of an explanation.
'it's doin my ead in' an expression of inchoate confusion and/or anger
'warrameanis' (trans) what I mean, is ...
'I was like...' / ' and I'm like...'
'I'm lovin this... that or the other' I hate Macdonalds!

And the next person to tell me that something insignificant and commonplace is 'Awesome' is just asking for a swift and none too gentle smack round the chops.

Also, while we are at it. can we regulars get our heads round the difference between

there and their
and
your and you're

it really isn't that difficult!

Anyway, rant over. Please add your own particular linguistic bettes noir below.

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

Know what I mean.

Should of, would of, instead of should have, would have etc

And, sorry A-B but you are guilty (see title of this thread), the greengrocer's apostrophe as in your tic's above. Pear's 70p/pound, avocado's 50p each etc etc.

And it should be betes noir not bettes noir plus a circumflew but I don't know how to do one on this computer.

I used to be a proofreader/editor.

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

I'm a baker I do typo's, mea culpa.

You used to be a proofreader, it is circumflex not circumflew. Touche (e accute) I think.:D 'circumflew' sounds like something from a Harry Potter novel

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Circumflex!!
Bête noire....just cut & paste it from Google, like I do....

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This man is a hidden genius. Happy New Year!:D

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I hate it when the young people say 'yeah' to check if you understand the meaning of what they have said.

I was once in PC World getting a computer fixed(yes, that is a joke) and a young asian man was explaining something to me, after each point he said 'yeah, right'....I nodded, but afterwards was happy to tell my daughter that all his explaining had been as worthless as the 'yeah, rights' in the conversation.

'Ok, yeah' is another one of my hates too......Miss BD has recently started using this phrase. Needless to say, I have told her that if I hear her use this phrase, then there will be no pocket money for the week.....so far so good.

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

People saying "innit" after every sentence.

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'Accute' should be 'acute'. I do check, sometimes.

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Oh, yes...that as well...hate it!

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Oops! set myself up for that... hoist with my own petard - or something like that.

I know Steve, just can't be a**ed. :rolleyes: By the time I've finished putting in all the spaces and caps that the dodgy space bar and shift key on this computer leave out I've had enough!

Perhaps this is how new words arise:

circumflew = round the world airline trip ticket

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

Gonna instead of going to.

Finally has crept in everywhere as in The day has finally arrived instead of just The day has come. Makes everything sound so apocalyptic.

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

[quote=susie123;958223]Oops! set myself up for that... hoist with my own petard - or something like that.



A sort of 'Bombe Surprise' so to speak.:D

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

My pet hate: "Can't be arsed." Sorry, Susie.

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

A wish yu lot ud lurn tu tawk reigt, wods appund tut propur English like wod eye touwt.
Retlaw.

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Far more irritating than what they say, is how they say it.

Too many women programme presenters are chosen for their looks.

Screeching giggling high pitched girls are the result.
They should take instruction from velvet voiced Moira Stewart.

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The collapse of standards in the English language can be blamed on one man. That man is Ali G, innit.

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

Where should I start?

Wanna and wannabe's...

I'm good - instead of I'm fine/well

I'm cool (dress up warmer!)

AWESOME (makes me feel like I want to throw up!)


One that really gets me irritated is the way the BBC presenter Ben Fogle (rather lovely chap) can't pronounce "THE".

It should be pronounced "THEE" in front of a vowel and he always says "THE" as in the book....his parents should sue his Public School:D

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People saying " i havn't done nothing" it really does my head in:hidewall::D

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And people who can't pronounce "g" as in "I havn't done nuffink"

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They'd probably say "I ain't done nuffink" Steve:D

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When people use 'them' instead of 'those'. As in 'them' people. Or 'Get me them tins of beans'

Mind you, at the time of Shakespeare people complained about the poor grammar in his work.

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To add to what I said about TV presenters -
This one sounds more robotic than Stephen Hawking

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Which actually means they've done sumfink cos it's a double negative...

We are the language police!!

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Surely that should be "summat"!:D

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There is a dj on 2Br or the Bee i can't remember which, who is very lazy with his speech and says "free " instead of three and generally does not enunciate properly. I am not saying i am not guilty of bad speech or grammar or spelling (minuet) but these people are paid to speak for a living so the least they could do is get it right.

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Can you imagine what it is like trying to teach this language to young Italians. As they are forever on Internet or listening to music(and lyrics) on You Tube, they come into class convinced their knowledge and pronunciation is perfect.
One of the most worrying examples is the pronunciation of 'the' as 'de'. One smart alec even made me listen to some English singers who actually pronounced 'the' as 'de' throughout the songs, and I have noticed many young Americans committing the same sin!! Help!!

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"Minuet" was a wonderful mis-spelling Dave;)

My best one was "i always put a candle in the widow every Halloween"
someone asked if she didn't mind...:D

That is a "typo" -new word which I have recently learned from my Trivia teacher -I see that A-B also used it here.

I am still living with 1980's English and have much to learn...;)

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I know exactly what you mean Sue -we are in the same boat here.

They spell like they text on internet games too which doesn't help either.:rolleyes:

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I think footballers have got this art of being interviewed down to a tee, one just uses urm after everything he says, and he earns about £5 million a year:rolleyes:

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Shouldn't that be A-b?

:rolleyes:

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This is not Boxing Day, it's Get at Susie Day! :rolleyes: :pain30:

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

What was so special about 1968?

I think the changes set in about ten years prior to that.

Angry young men, kitchen sink dramas, and students at RADA, no longer trying to rid themselves of their provincial accents.

Language is in a constant state of flux.

Always has been. Always will be.

Though we'll always grumble, about those changes.

Personally I can't stand to listen to the mockney, Asian/West Indian hybrid accent, that's spoken by spotty white yoofs.

When was the golden age of spoken English, and where was it spoken?

Milford, or Weatherfield, the East End?

Victoria Wood - Brief Encounter parody - YouTube

As Seen On TV - Corrie sketch - YouTube

(Couldn't find the brilliant Victoria Wood parody, of a cheerful, chirpy cockney and her mother, filmed at a London bomb site, Pathé News style. Using that clipped, working class accent, only ever seen in Ealing Comedies. )

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

No.

Happy Boxing Day.

But rarely on here, are those who've pointed out the mistakes of others, who in doing so, don't make their own mistake.

It's traditonal, and only polite, to point them out.

;):D

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

You missed the comma after 'rarely'.
Or have you?
Anyway, you can't start a sentence with 'But'.

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Personally don't really give a fig, how some folks talk, if thats all yeh have to moider about, life aint too bad.:rolleyes:

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

True.

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It doesn't count, if you're merely pointing out the mistakes, of those who criticise others.

;)

I think it's funny.

You have to be pretty sure of yourself, that you're not making mistakes yourself, if you're going to point out those made by others.

I even started a thread about whether it matters, back in 2005.

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...-how-9900.html

I think some of the best posts I've ever read on here, have contained mistakes.

I believe it's more important what's actually meant. Not how it's said.

You can teach a monkey the rules of grammar, and spelling.

It's harder to get them to write a great work of literature.

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

It could be argued either way.

But life's short, and I've Olive's to stuff.

;):D

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But I was always brought up to believe that silly rules were there to be broken.

So I do.

;):D

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I think the starter of this thread was more incensed about sloppy English than concerned about mistakes.

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

I think typing your thoughts is a lot harder than saying them. Grammar,punctuation,spelling don't matter so much in speech.
I only ever type on here and sometimes when I read what I've put it's rubbish(all together now!).Not just for the above but how it reads, sometimes what you mean to say gets lost or comes out all wrong.
As long as people understand what you've put, what the hell!

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

Agree, but whilst its preferable, can't see a reason to be bugged about it? bit sad really.:rolleyes:

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True! Thread wander.
But as Garinda says, language is changing all the time and what what we call sloppy will be acceptable shortly-I don't think we can stop it.

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

It always strikes me as sloppy when they refer to 'fiddling' on the B.B.C. news, when someone's been caught cheating, stealing, or defrauding.

Especially when they drop the 'g', and pronounce it as fiddlin'.

I bet they didn't say fiddling, when they broadcast from Ally Pally, in evening gowns, and pearls.

Mind you, they probably wouldn't have used the word sloppy, either.

:rolleyes::D

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

I'll ask again.

When was this golden age, of the English language?

You can bet the majority of English people didn't speak it.

Whenever it was supposed to be.

Besides, as a people, we didn't win everything from Agincourt, to the two World Wars, because we knew when to dot the i's, and cross the t's.

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

Not surprised that this argument had already been tackled in the past.:rolleyes:

I can't read "American" literature - I spend my time "correcting" the "mistakes". They are just the fruit of a different convention and "rules".
My loss probably.

I also think rules are there to be tested and broken - so why should certain things irk me so much? (Indoctrination?)

We all have our own predjudices and have acquired rules from various teachers and reference points...

So, Renaissance painting is art, "modern" art is not to my taste and graffiti is stuff of ignorant street "artists"...

Learn to translate and "read".

The message of the writer is the essence and that is where there is something to learn. Understanding needs breadth of mind not narrowness - I am guilty of that sometimes/often...

Jane Austen would not be in print today if her spelling mistakes and grammar were taken into account a few hundred years ago:D

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

Being traditional and polite...;)

On here, those who've pointed out the mistakes of others, have rarely done so without making mistakes of their own.:D

Happy "day after" Boxing Day!

(Open to correction for grammar and spelling!)

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

"The clouds, like listless elephants,/Horizons straggled down." What a pity you don't read American literature ...

But I gots to let youse guys know that if it ain't full of "eh"s, it ain't Canajun English;)

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

I'm not really too concerned about minor spelling, grammar and punctuation errors, especially on a forum like this; in a more formal piece of writing it would, of course, be different. As long as the meaning is clear and does not invite misinterpretation I don't think we need to be slaves to the rules, do we?

As Susie123 points out, my main concern is with the mangling of the language by people who's main occupation is using the language and who act as examplars of spoken English eg: Newsreaders, Politicians etc. My other concern is with the easy resort to sloppy English usage; the pronunciation of the word 'Drawing' with two r's and the substitution of meaningless words and phrases because the speaker either cannot be bothered to think first before speaking or is lacking the breadth of vocabulary.

With reference to my use of the the word 'Typo', it is an abbreviation of the phrase 'Typographical error' and has been used for many years within the printing and publishing industries. I use it because it is useful and conveys my meaning succinctly and efficiently and it sounds a little more elegant than 'Fat Finger'. I cannot exactly recall if Pitman (they taught me how to type when manual machines were still cutting edge technology.) recommend its use to describe an error made in typing, but I feel that they do.

It is estimated by the OED that there are approximately 250,000 distinct words in the English language. The number of words in the vocabulary of the average person educated to secondary level is approximately 35,000, this rises to approximately 75,000 and upwards after University education. Given that most of the people employed by the broadcast media are University educated, there appears to be little excuse for the sloppy use of English characterised by such phrases as 'y'know', 'errrm' and 'I was like this is just so awesome'.

Another thing that really makes my pee boil is the increasing prevalence of turning a simple statement into a question by rising inflection at the end of the sentence. The Divine Oscar had it right when he described America as the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between.

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

Thanks for the elucidation WRT "Typo" -had only seen it used once before in a PM a short while ago and assumed it meant "typing error".

When i came to Italy 25 yrs ago I learned to speak Italian from the TV -RAI -the equivalent of the BBC. My husband and his family all spoke in dialect so I learned that first...

The BBC used to be a haven for spoken English -shame it has lowered it's standards towards the LCD - I blame the popularity of so-called "reality" TV for this. As in England where the language is being bastardized with American English -the same this is happening in Italy, the purists are complaining here too.

BTW another thing I can't stand is the use of acronyms;)

I think it may actually be against the rules of Accyweb to use them ...will have to check.

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

I have read some US Lit. Eric, just not a lot, and prefer to read proper English;) (Studied Robert Frost for O-level for example)

I have also read the books of Laurie R. King mainly because they complete one of my own literary fantasies. Mary Russell, the protagonist wins Sherlock Holmes heart! How i envy her;):D

Ms. King writes very well indeed:)

(Who wrote your quoted poem?)

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

To me anybody that gets a bit tetchy about grammatical or spelling errors they make, will only have a very short life span on here, after all its coming up to 7 years since I joined this happy throng and have probably taken more stick from our blessed Margaret than anybody else, yet she Say's I'm not nice when I reciprocate, but I suppose I'll just have to grin and bare it and carry on regardless:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

Yours aren't just misspellings, they are malapropisms, which makes them noteworthy.

Incidentally, what part of your anatomy do you intend to bare?:D

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

I do not mind acronyms or abbreviations as long as it is made clear first what they are meant to mean.

When I was working in Nursing we were discouraged from using abbreviations.......although most of us used things like TPR(temperature, Pulse and respirations) and BP (blood pressure) these were universal and understood by everyone......but on my speciality PID meant Pelvic Inflammatory Disease....whereas elsewhere it could mean Prolasped Intervertebral Disc.....so misunderstandings could arise from these abbreviations.
Acronyms and abbreviations assume knowledge which might not be there.

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In your case that would be my arse:D

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The words 'nail' and 'head' spring to mind.

If jaysay is going to bare part of his anatomy, can somebody take pictures please?

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

The problem I have is using a spell check which corrects my attempts at spelling (I do take the trouble to try and make it readable for other site users, unlike some I could mention) if I'm not careful and actually check what my mate spello has done, we end up with as you say malapropisms, but so long as I can bring a fun into your own tedious little world, who am I to complain;)

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There's nothing wrong with a well placed malapropism, as Hylda, my avatar, would be the first to point out. Now, about displaying your bottom....

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Ya but mine are unintentional Bob, as for my bottom, only MargaretR deserves that revolting sight:rolleyes:

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Revulsion is a very personal thing....a bit like beauty...what turns some on, will turn others right off.......anyway John, don't bother letting me see it. I have seen enough bums to last me three lifetimes(that's a lot of bums):D:D:D

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I was clear to point out which Margaret I was referring to, the one i usually treat with contempt on here, and that could never be you:D

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Jay is a little disingenuous. As firm and shapley as two billiard balls in a silk handkerchief, or so the gossip has it.

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I can't be arsed to discuss Jay's arse!

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I don't like the use of plus instead of and, which is fairly commonn in listings magazines such as Radio Times:

Tonight there is an interview with Sir XYZ, plus there's a chance to hear the Morons perform their new single.

Another thing that bugs me is when music is referred to as tracks or songs even when it's part of a symphony. I've just looked up a disc of Beethoven symphonies on Amazon and you can preview all songs. So where are the words?

There used to be a children's programme on Radio 3 where all the items were referred to as tracks even when there were live performers!

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Me thinks susie (with a small s) needs to look for a more eyebrow site than Accyweb:D

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Think this is turning into a bum thread really:rolleyes:

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Yes, Jonh....I knew which Margaret you meant....I was just clarifying that I would not be one of the ones who wanted to view the picture of your derriere, however delightful it might appear to some.

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What and miss all this delightful chat with you lot? :eek:

Am trying to think of a suitable quip about an eyebrow site but my brain won't take me there...

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

The eyebrow really made me smile....I hope it is a raised one and not too finely plucked.:)....John, I love your way with words.....it makes me smile every day.

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More like two little lads having a fight under a blanket:D:D:moon::moon:

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John......just how many folk have seen your bum?.......seems like there are a few willing to talk about it

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Just a quick correction here, Garinda. In words that end in 'ing', the 'g' should never be pronounced; it is a nasal sound where you raise the back of your tongue (pronounced again without the 'g' and tun) to the palette. :)

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

The Queen always pronounced the 'g', in words ending in 'ing', when she was speakin' to me.

Askin' when I'd be deliverin', whatever it was I was makin' for her.

Never heard such nonsense.

You wouldn't stand in the pulpit in Westminster Abbey, and announce that 'Today's readin' is taken from...'

The 'g' is pronounced. Even if only slightly.

What about four letter words ending in 'g'?

Please slip my rin' on your finger.

For my next song I shall sin Din' Dong Merrily on High.

I've found the kin', hidin' behind the min' vase.

Bleedin' daft.

:rolleyes: :D

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

Words like King, etc., are a different matter.

I am not talking about saying 'makin' pronouncing the 'n' at the end either, would have to physically show you what I mean, but I am right, you are wrong about this ... :p

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

We were taught in school that we shouldn't drop the H's and we should sound the g in endings...... we had a teacher who would rap your knuckles with a ruler....just to help you remember and imprint it in your consciousness

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You would have to show me too, because I don't know what you mean either Kate.
Not saying you are wrong, but just I don't get what you mean.

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

Hahaha .. just noticed in your Location you are 'Overlookin' ducks and geese'.

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That's what I understood too though some people do seem to lose the g altogether. Some Midlands speakers overemphasize it instead.

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You're not getting your hands on my tongue, or your digits on my palate.

Not unless you ask nicely.

:p:D

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

Presume by digits, you mean fingers as opposed to toes... dang ;):D

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Oxford Dictionaries Online and my copy of the Concise Oxford Dictionary does not agree with you.

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

Katex is right here but should have specified that it is so when the word ends in the suffix "-ing" (therefore words like King, Ming etc don't follow the rule) -it's called a velar nasal consonant and you don't actually pronounce the g fully and sort of hint at it in the way Katex describes. This is the pronunciation I prefer - the other more American pronunciation where there is no hint of the g is known as an alveolar nasal consonant, which makes it sound like the words end in "in".

(Interrogated friend Charlotte as she studied linguistics and is a mine of info!) By the way you do pronounce the g when you say Linguistics;):D

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Another thing I hate is when people drop their "aitches" -as in "I 'ate' im"...

Or the awful way some people say "an 'otel"... so contrived.:(

A good friend from Uni., one Robert Harington, has stupidly called his son Hugo - a real mouthful and awful if you drop the aitches!)

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.....

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I would say that years ago the correct version of hotel etc among the upper class was without the h, and they would also be the ones to almost drop the g in ing. Perhaps this is how the folk in Downton Abbey should have spoken - huntin', shootin' and fishin'...

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

-ing as a suffix is pronounced the same as in ring, according to my Concise Oxford Dictionary.

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

Whatever, am getting out of my depth here!:eek:

Not an expert but still prefer to hear a sort of "g" on the end in any case!:D

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Emily Dickinson.

This is an interesting thread ... kinda like Seinfeld, it's about nothing. Or at least, nothing important. There is no standard English. Never has been; never will be. English is a lot like quanta; it defies being pinned down. Most languages are purpose directed ... or something like that. The kind of language you use depends on the situation in which you use it. For example, the language you use when you have just pounded the hell out of your thumb with a hammer is not what you would use in most other circumstances, unless, of course, you are like me;) Spelling isn't that important either. It tends to lag behind pronunciation ... or bear little realtion to it. Brits are good at this ... mispronouncing "clerk" and "derby" with insular relish.

So have fun. And remember: don't end a sentence with a preposition (propositions are so much better:D) ... and read what Churchill said about this.

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This is the sort of English up with which I will not put.

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Great post Eric, time for me to abandon ship I think -I have too many tics and need crutches for all my own annoying habits where writing is concerned.

One thing is for sure -all those who write on here are unique and have a very expressive and personal voice in what they "say" - if you were to remove the names and avatars most would be instantly recogniseable by their style, wit, etc. Will cast no more stones as I am not without sin:o:D

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Yorkshire ;) they can't help it. :)

As to getting worked up about it :idunno:. As long as the folk who put their points down are understandable where's the problem ? We all at some point make mistakes, so just let it ride, be that pebble on the beach. :)

Admittedly Jay comes up with some belters, but hey that's part & parcel of who & what he is & often raises an unintentional smile. Each to their own & all that, lest you be judged by others. :)

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Prospective employers would disagree with this statement. Employers complain that school leavers, and even some university graduates, cannot spell simple words.

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What the piginG hell you on about Kate:D

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

Ya its just a tad worryinG (I'm sounding the G just for Kate) is that Margaret, seeing they're all blokes talking about it:eek::eek:, now if it was the fairer sex that would be a different question altogether:D:D

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

That is always my intention every morning when I first log on, pity that some prat from Scotland usually messes it up:D

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

Ya I had a teacher like that, remember your "Hs" laddy, whack:D

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

That's tickled me! Thanks for making me laugh, John. I am suffering with flu and that's cheered me up!

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

Ehh, pardon:D

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

See Eric's reference to Churchill.

Re: Linguistic tic's and crutches
 

I honestly think they don't put the same emphasis on correct English or grammar as they used to do, in exams apart from English that is, spelling doesn't seem to matter. My other half acts as an exam invigilator at her local primary school in the exam season, and she often remarks that spelling mistakes in subjects such as history and geography are overlooked, which to me is counter productive