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-   -   Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir? (https://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f69/should-hyndburn-be-supporting-pakistan-in-kashmir-60844.html)

garinda 29-02-2012 20:46
Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Since Councillor Moss has reignited the debate, since his return.

A simple yes/no question.

Should Hyndburn Borough Council have used it's time to support the Pakistani side, rather than India, in the conflict in Kashmir?

This will be a secret poll.

walkinman221 29-02-2012 20:51
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Why should Hyndburn council support either side what has it got to do with them as a local council what would their support or condemnation achieve other than giving propaganda material to either of the protagonists.In other words keep your nose out Hyndburn council.

cashman 29-02-2012 21:13
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Agree wi walkingman, sod all to do wi H.B.C. And rather than a possible vote winner, May well have the direct opposite.:(

garinda 29-02-2012 21:25
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Looking rather one-sided itself, at the moment.

Nevermind.

The councillor mice will be along soon.

To place their secret little votes.

That yes, they were right to do what they did.

:rolleyes:

Michael1954 29-02-2012 21:29
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
The local council should be worrying about local issues, rather than international ones.

mobertol 29-02-2012 21:31
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael1954 (Post 974005)
The local council should be worrying about local issues, rather than international ones.
Fairly obvious -strange they should be over-stepping their mandate...

Wrighty 29-02-2012 21:31
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Can we not sack these councillors , for doing a crap job ? :/

garinda 29-02-2012 21:33
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrighty (Post 974007)
Can we not sack these councillors , for doing a crap job ? :/
Only at the ballot box.

;)

Wrighty 29-02-2012 21:39
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 974008)
Only at the ballot box.

;)
Who ever is standing against Liebour & Conservative .. I would gladly help em out .. even if its delivering leaflets :D

garinda 29-02-2012 21:51
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrighty (Post 974009)
Who ever is standing against Liebour & Conservative .. I would gladly help em out .. even if its delivering leaflets :D

Tactical voting may be the only way, to make them understand your views.

Unhappy with a M.P., who says he supports democracy, then votes to deny you that democratic right?

Oust them.

Split their vote.

I am.

No longer will Labour have my support.

UKIP will.

Angry that someone elected to represent you on a local council, is involving themselves with highly contentious international issues?

Oust them.

Split their vote.

Decide who else standing is most likely to unseat them.

Make your view count.

Wrighty 29-02-2012 22:01
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 974012)
Tactical voting may be the only way, to make them understand your views.

Unhappy with a M.P., who says he supports democracy, then votes to deny you that democratic right?

Oust them.

Split their vote.

I am.

No longer will Labour have my support.

UKIP will.

Angry that someone elected to represent you on a local council, is involving themselves with highly contentious international issues?

Oust them.

Split their vote.

Decide who else standing is most likely to unseat them.

Make your view count.
It has to be done! ... it is definitely time we had a change

gynn 01-03-2012 06:34
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Which bit of:-

“That this Council supports the Kashmiri community here in Hyndburn and the peoples of Jammu and Kashmir to bring about genuine initiatives aimed at ending the violence and suffering and in favour of a just and lasting peace settlement and that the British government should not itself prescribe any one solution to the problem of Kashmir, It resolutely opposes all forms of terrorism and violence, including the use of abduction, torture, murder and rape as instruments in any political cause and calls on all sides in this dispute to condemn such incidents and to observe in full, international standards of human rights and the right of the people of Jammu and Kashmir to determine their own future in a free, fair and transparent manner. The Council welcomes the helpful dialogue between the Hyndburn MP, Graham Jones, and those seeking the right to Kashmiri self-determination. The Council resolves to write to the Foreign Office Minister to bring his attention to this issue.“


says the Council is taking sides? :confused::confused::confused:

gynn 01-03-2012 06:47
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Surely the resolution is aimed at urging ALL sides to sort out the problem?

Ken Moss 01-03-2012 07:13
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974047)
Surely the resolution is aimed at urging ALL sides to sort out the problem?
Thanks Gynn, first sensible post I've heard on the subject.

garinda 01-03-2012 07:35
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974044)
Which bit of:-

“That this Council supports the Kashmiri community here in Hyndburn and the peoples of Jammu and Kashmir to bring about genuine initiatives aimed at ending the violence and suffering and in favour of a just and lasting peace settlement and that the British government should not itself prescribe any one solution to the problem of Kashmir, It resolutely opposes all forms of terrorism and violence, including the use of abduction, torture, murder and rape as instruments in any political cause and calls on all sides in this dispute to condemn such incidents and to observe in full, international standards of human rights and the right of the people of Jammu and Kashmir to determine their own future in a free, fair and transparent manner. The Council welcomes the helpful dialogue between the Hyndburn MP, Graham Jones, and those seeking the right to Kashmiri self-determination. The Council resolves to write to the Foreign Office Minister to bring his attention to this issue.“


says the Council is taking sides? :confused::confused::confused:
The original motion, reported that Hyndburn B.C. voted to support, and used around the world, by terrorist supporting propagandists....

'That this Council supports the Kashmir community here in Hyndburn in condemning the atrocities committed and acts of barbaric violence by Indian Forces in Indian occupied Kashmir which has resulted in women been gang raped, children lined up and shot dead in front of their parents, people been torched and set on fire in their jail cells.'

http://www.hyndburnbc.gov.uk/downloa...to_Council.pdf

Besides, this poll really asks the question, should a local council spend any of it's time, concerning itself with any international issues.

The answer to that, despite the glib response from Cllr. Moss, seems to be a resounding 'No!'.

garinda 01-03-2012 07:45
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Moss (Post 974049)
Thanks Gynn, first sensible post I've heard on the subject.
Are you sure you were right, when you said I was supposedly the Tory's 'secret weapon', in the run up to the elections?

Looks like I might have been usurped.

Thanks a lot.

jaysay 01-03-2012 08:47
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
The only issues HBC should be concerned with are the problems which occur within its own boundaries, if people come to live in our country they come with the intention of making a better life for themselves and their families, leaving behind their problems. I have never understood people from other countries now living in GB marching, waving banners and placards about something happening thousands of miles away, if they want to get involved in problem solving in the country of birth the place to do it is back home in that country, not here, end of story. Before motor mouth jumps in on a party political issue, I was once informed by a Labour council that when they are in charge they set the agenda and take all the credit, the book stops with the ruling group, they could have said no, but they sanctioned.

gynn 01-03-2012 09:45
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Reading the original motion, and the watered down version that was finally voted through, it seems that some Henry Kissinger style diplomacy was displayed by someone at HBC to produce a result that made everyone happy. The Asian community felt that their concerns had been listened to, and everyone else could live with what was agreed.

I strongly disagree with the assertion that the issue should never have been discussed by the Council. The Council is there to represent the worries and concerns of the local community, and when the local community consists of a large Asian community, then the issues that concern them should be aired.

jaysay 01-03-2012 09:56
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974078)
Reading the original motion, and the watered down version that was finally voted through, it seems that some Henry Kissinger style diplomacy was displayed by someone at HBC to produce a result that made everyone happy. The Asian community felt that their concerns had been listened to, and everyone else could live with what was agreed.

I strongly disagree with the assertion that the issue should never have been discussed by the Council. The Council is there to represent the worries and concerns of the local community, and when the local community consists of a large Asian community, then the issues that concern them should be aired.
Gobledgoock gynn, HBC is the body that represents the people living in Hyndburn not 10, 000 miles away, if people who come from abroad and wish to get involved in whats going on "back home" the place to do it is not in the council chamber under the banner of HBC, sorry gynn

garinda 01-03-2012 10:01
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974078)
Reading the original motion, and the watered down version that was finally voted through, it seems that some Henry Kissinger style diplomacy was displayed by someone at HBC to produce a result that made everyone happy. The Asian community felt that their concerns had been listened to, and everyone else could live with what was agreed.

I strongly disagree with the assertion that the issue should never have been discussed by the Council. The Council is there to represent the worries and concerns of the local community, and when the local community consists of a large Asian community, then the issues that concern them should be aired.
Well it seems you're in a tiny minority.

Most people seem to think it's the job of local councils to deal with local issues, not international ones.

That's the job of national government.

If residents want to make their feelings known, about an issue happening on the otherside of the world, they should lobby their representative in Westminster, their M.P.

Wynonie Harris 01-03-2012 10:01
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974078)
I strongly disagree with the assertion that the issue should never have been discussed by the Council. The Council is there to represent the worries and concerns of the local community, and when the local community consists of a large Asian community, then the issues that concern them should be aired.
The Council's purpose is to deal with LOCAL issues - not a situation occurring thousands of miles away in another country. Residents of Kashmiri origin may well be concerned about events in their country of origin, but that is NOT the concern of the local council.

garinda 01-03-2012 10:12
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974078)
Reading the original motion, and the watered down version that was finally voted through, it seems that some Henry Kissinger style diplomacy was displayed by someone at HBC to produce a result that made everyone happy. The Asian community felt that their concerns had been listened to, and everyone else could live with what was agreed.

I strongly disagree with the assertion that the issue should never have been discussed by the Council. The Council is there to represent the worries and concerns of the local community, and when the local community consists of a large Asian community, then the issues that concern them should be aired.
Every fool knows that if Hyndburn had a sizeable minority of Hindu or Sikhs, instead of Muslims, the patsies on the council would have supported the Indian side in this conflict, condemning gang rape, and infanticide, carried out by the Pakistanis.

Hyndburn Borough Council allowed themselves to be used, to add weight to only one country's propaganda war, in the vain hope of securing votes.

garinda 01-03-2012 10:15
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 974084)
Every fool knows that if Hyndburn had a sizeable minority of Hindu or Sikhs, instead of Muslims, the patsies on the council would have supported the Indian side in this conflict, condemning gang rape, and infanticide, carried out by the Pakistanis.

Hyndburn Borough Council allowed themselves to be used, to add weight to only one country's propaganda war, in the vain hope of securing votes.
Besides which, local council - local issues.

International issues - the job of national government, in Parliament.

gynn 01-03-2012 10:40
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Let's have a look at the Council's Constitution.

http://www.hyndburnbc.gov.uk/downloa...sed_Jan_12.pdf

Amongst the key roles of Councillors are:

2.3 Roles and Functions of all councillors

II. represent their communities and bring their views into the Council’s decisionmaking process, i.e. become the advocate of and for their communities;
III. deal with individual casework and act as an advocate for constituents in resolving particular concerns or grievances;

Where does that limit them to local issues only? It constituents have a grievance regarding something that is happening in their community abroad, it is perfectly reasonable for their representative to raise it at Council.

Not gobbledygook, jaysay. Fact.

garinda 01-03-2012 10:52
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974086)
Let's have a look at the Council's Constitution.

http://www.hyndburnbc.gov.uk/downloa...sed_Jan_12.pdf

Amongst the key roles of Councillors are:

2.3 Roles and Functions of all councillors

II. represent their communities and bring their views into the Council’s decisionmaking process, i.e. become the advocate of and for their communities;
III. deal with individual casework and act as an advocate for constituents in resolving particular concerns or grievances;

Where does that limit them to local issues only? It constituents have a grievance regarding something that is happening in their community abroad, it is perfectly reasonable for their representative to raise it at Council.

Not gobbledygook, jaysay. Fact.
Rubbish.

If people have grievances about international matters, they should lobby national government, who deal with international issues on our behalf.

It isn't the job of local government.

Or shouldn't be.

The last time we saw such stupidity was when loony left councils in the eighties involved themselves with various non-local concerns.

garinda 01-03-2012 11:05
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974086)
Let's have a look at the Council's Constitution.

http://www.hyndburnbc.gov.uk/downloa...sed_Jan_12.pdf

Amongst the key roles of Councillors are:

2.3 Roles and Functions of all councillors

II. represent their communities and bring their views into the Council’s decisionmaking process, i.e. become the advocate of and for their communities;
III. deal with individual casework and act as an advocate for constituents in resolving particular concerns or grievances;

Where does that limit them to local issues only? It constituents have a grievance regarding something that is happening in their community abroad, it is perfectly reasonable for their representative to raise it at Council.

Not gobbledygook, jaysay. Fact.
It could be argued, that when one of our local councillors was allowed to submit this openly partisan, and prejudiced motion before the meeting of the full council, they were guilty of not adhering to this stated responsibility of a councillor.

'VIII. maintain the highest standards of conduct and ethics.'

http://www.hyndburnbc.gov.uk/downloa...sed_Jan_12.pdf

Neil 01-03-2012 11:16
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974078)
Reading the original motion, and the watered down version that was finally voted through.....
Was it watered down before or after the vote?

gynn 01-03-2012 11:45
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil (Post 974089)
Was it watered down before or after the vote?
Well the following meeting of the Council agreed that the resolution was as agreed at the meeting:-

446 Confirmation of Minutes

Resolved - That the minutes of the Council meeting held on 10th November 2011 be approved as a correct record.

Presumably the legal opinion given was that the Kashmir item WAS a legitimate issue to be raised at Council. If we feel strongly that it shouldn't have been, we should be lobbying the Council to change the constitution.

In the meantime, we can't complain if any councillor acts within the rules. We can adopt a Daily Mail style of xenophobic ranting, but a more constructive path to go down might be reviewing the constitution.

garinda 01-03-2012 12:30
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974094)
In the meantime, we can't complain if any councillor acts within the rules. We can adopt a Daily Mail style of xenophobic ranting, but a more constructive path to go down might be reviewing the constitution.
It isn't xenophobia.

Most people seem to have their head screwed on better than you.

The vast majority of people understand that national government should deal with international issues, not local government.

garinda 01-03-2012 12:34
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974094)
In the meantime, we can't complain if any councillor acts within the rules. We can adopt a Daily Mail style of xenophobic ranting, but a more constructive path to go down might be reviewing the constitution.
...and if you're trying to attach the right-wing, xenophobic label onto myself, and everyone else who voted that Hyndurn B.C. shouldn't be wasting time on issues on the Indian sub-continent, you're way off the mark, and are denser than you at first appear.

MargaretR 01-03-2012 12:45
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
The damage is done and can't/won't be undone.

Continuing to discuss it serves no useful purpose.

If the councillors haven't got the message by now, they never will.

If you need to be angry, find another new injustice to highlight - please.

yerself 01-03-2012 12:53
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
What is HBC doing poking its nose into this matter. This is what the Foreign Office have to say about it.

Country Profile: Pakistan

UK Position on Kashmir

The long standing position of the UK is that it is for India and Pakistan to find a lasting resolution to the situation in Kashmir, one which takes into account the wishes of the Kashmiri people. It is not for the UK to prescribe a solution or to mediate in finding one. We welcome the positive steps being taken by Pakistan and India to build trust and confidence.

We remain committed to our engagement in a practical way through the UK Government’s Conflict Pool, which continues to fund a number of projects designed to assist those in India, Pakistan and on both sides of the Line of Control with efforts to facilitate dialogue and address the causes and impact of conflict in the region.

accyman 01-03-2012 12:53
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
if a side must have been supported out of the two sides in this i would have prefered our council supported the side that dosnt support the taliban and didnt hide and provide shelter for binladen .


HBC should have steered clear of this isuue period and i dont just mean labour i mean the bloody lot of em

Margaret Pilkington 01-03-2012 12:56
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
I think that what Margaret has said makes sense.
It does no good at all to go round and round in circles.
Nothing that we can say will influence what has happened.....it may not even prevent it from happening again.
My feeling is that it was a sop to the councillors who hail from this part of the world.
Jaysay has already said that they are less interested in local politics than getting what they consider, is a fair deal for constituents from their own community.
I think that observation hit the nail on the head.

Less 01-03-2012 12:56
Quote:
Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 974104)
The damage is done and can't/won't be undone.

Continuing to discuss it serves no useful purpose.
Perhaps not.

However unlike conspiricy theories and endless grumblings about imagined illnesses and their extra-ordinary cures, this has happened in the real world.

If we allow such things to go without comment, how many other distasteful and perhaps undemocratic actions will they think they can get away with?

Margaret Pilkington 01-03-2012 12:59
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Less, I agree that to let it go unchallenged is not right, but then neither is it right to keep bringing up something which is in the past, and which seems to create little concern amongst the councillors of HBC.
I think it is called 'labouring' a point.

cashman 01-03-2012 13:05
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 974109)
Less, I agree that to let it go unchallenged is not right, but then neither is it right to keep bringing up something which is in the past, and which seems to create little concern amongst the councillors of HBC.
I think it is called 'labouring' a point.
I disagree, by keeping on about what was blatantly a bad move, Makes it less likely they will fall fer the same trick next time? Keep on just fer a day or so after, then its soon forgotten.

Michael1954 01-03-2012 13:09
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 974104)
The damage is done and can't/won't be undone.

Continuing to discuss it serves no useful purpose.

If the councillors haven't got the message by now, they never will.

If you need to be angry, find another new injustice to highlight - please.
You can always stop reading the thread if you have had enough of it.

garinda 01-03-2012 13:09
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 974104)
The damage is done and can't/won't be undone.

Continuing to discuss it serves no useful purpose.

If the councillors haven't got the message by now, they never will.

If you need to be angry, find another new injustice to highlight - please.
Are you advocating censorship, about what people might, or might not want to discuss on this forum?

Given the number of people who've voted so far, the vast majority seem to have a strong view about what the role of local government should be.

If you have no opinion on this matter, that's fine.

But please don't try and dictate what things other members should think of as important.

As for 'continuing the discussion...because the damage is done'.

If we are unhappy with what our elected representatives have done in our name, and a third of those representatives will be up for re-election in two months time, continued discussion is a very vaild way for people to air their concerns.

No one is forced to enter in the discussion, if they don't wish to.

If this is of no interest, don't waste your time, by reading it.

garinda 01-03-2012 13:26
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974078)
I strongly disagree with the assertion that the issue should never have been discussed by the Council.
Whatever the wording, or whichever foreign country's cause we are adding weight to, by voting to support it.

You, yourself, seemed quite scathing only a couple of month ago, that Hyndburn Borough Council was involving itself in international matters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 947795)
There is clearly now an urgent need for the Council to appoint a new cabinet post - Cabinet Member with responsibility for Foreign Affairs. They could become a sort of Henry Kissinger character, roaming the globe visiting trouble spots and solving potentially explosive situations with their tact and diplomacy.

Who knows, if Hyndburn had been involved in Iraq under Saddam Hussein, we might have known there were no weapons of mass destruction.....

;)
http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...tml#post947795

Why the change?

The council's constitution hasn't changed since November.

Less 01-03-2012 13:27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 974109)
but then neither is it right to keep bringing up something which is in the past,
I think it is called 'labouring' a point.
The simple reply to that is:-

November the 11th, every year, 'Lest we forget'.

Some things we should remember, the death of a generation & the guardianship of democracy must never be forgotten.

mobertol 01-03-2012 13:34
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Fairly conclusive vote on this poll - as he has commented i was wondering if Cllr. Moss had actually voted or not -is he one of the "No" votes or is it a tactical abstention, I wonder...:rolleyes::D

gynn 01-03-2012 13:35
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 974122)

Why the change?
I saw the Council minute and was impressed by the way the officers dealt with it.

garinda 01-03-2012 13:35
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 974109)
Less, I agree that to let it go unchallenged is not right, but then neither is it right to keep bringing up something which is in the past, and which seems to create little concern amongst the councillors of HBC.
I think it is called 'labouring' a point.
It's being discussed on here at the moment because, for the first time since the motion was supported by the council in November, a councillor, Ken Moss, has recently discussed the issue on Accy Web.

Until this week there's been a wall of stony silence from any councillor on here, about this matter.

That is why it's still valid as a discussion.

garinda 01-03-2012 13:45
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974127)
I saw the Council minute and was impressed by the way the officers dealt with it.
So, you were sarcastically scathing that H.B.C. were involving itself in international matters, in November.

Cue a few months later, because in your opinion the council dealt with those international issues 'impressively', you now think it's within the remit of a local council to give time to discuss and support conflicts in foreign lands.

Er...ok.

If every village has to have an idiot, I suppose the same goes for a borough.

Margaret Pilkington 01-03-2012 13:49
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Less (Post 974123)
The simple reply to that is:-

November the 11th, every year, 'Lest we forget'.

Some things we should remember, the death of a generation & the guardianship of democracy must never be forgotten.
I don't think that is quite the same thing.
Some things are to be remembered...they are part of our history.
And the guardianship of democracy is not in dispute.(how much democracy have we got anyway?......you might want to ask G.Jones about that...with respect of the chance to have a say on a much more important issue...the EU)

I did not, and do not agree with HBC getting involved in issues which are international in their origin(I voted NO in the poll)....but I fail to see what a continued (circular)discussion has on this issue. I am happy to be enlightened though.

It is plain that the councillors concerned are not going to do anything about the situation(if anything could be done)....and they know of the displeasure of those who have commented on here, but this does not seem to move anyone either.....it is, therefore, a bit pointless.

Less 01-03-2012 13:56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 974130)
I don't think that is quite the same thing.
Of course it's the same thing!

Their sacrifice and that of many others since then, was, to ensure OUR freedom, not to let some half baked ideas put forward to a tin pot local council run rough shod over the wishes of the majority.

Michael1954 01-03-2012 14:04
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Margaret, if it's pointless, stop reading the thread. Don't you think you are being a tad patronising?

garinda 01-03-2012 14:07
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 974130)
I don't think that is quite the same thing.
Some things are to be remembered...they are part of our history.
And the guardianship of democracy is not in dispute.(how much democracy have we got anyway?......you might want to ask G.Jones about that...with respect of the chance to have a say on a much more important issue...the EU)

I did not, and do not agree with HBC getting involved in issues which are international in their origin(I voted NO in the poll)....but I fail to see what a continued (circular)discussion has on this issue. I am happy to be enlightened though.

It is plain that the councillors concerned are not going to do anything about the situation(if anything could be done)....and they know of the displeasure of those who have commented on here, but this does not seem to move anyone either.....it is, therefore, a bit pointless.
So come the next General Election you'll be forgetting that your M.P. voted against you having a vote in a referendum on E.U. membership, even though you seemed quite keen to want one yourself?

This discussion, besides a councillor recently discussing it for the first time since the motion was supported, is valid because some of those politicans who voted for it will soon be up for re-election.

garinda 01-03-2012 14:15
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 974130)
It is plain that the councillors concerned are not going to do anything about the situation
No, they won't.

Though anyone they're supposed to represent, who are unhappy with what their elected representatives have done in their name, have the option of doing something about it...at the ballot box.

Wrighty 01-03-2012 14:24
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 974141)
No, they won't.

Though anyone they're supposed to represent, who are unhappy with what their elected representatives have done in their name, have the option of doing something about it...at the ballot box.
Hit em where it hurts! not literally mind you lol

Ken Moss 01-03-2012 14:33
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 974128)
It's being discussed on here at the moment because, for the first time since the motion was supported by the council in November, a councillor, Ken Moss, has recently discussed the issue on Accy Web.

Until this week there's been a wall of stony silence from any councillor on here, about this matter.

That is why it's still valid as a discussion.
I was asked outright on the same day that I came back to the forum after a hiatus. I've given my opinion, although this thread has now changed to getting all hissy about the original wording rather than the motion that was actually passed.

With councillors getting a roasting for something they didn't do, I don't see there's anything left to discuss.

Margaret Pilkington 01-03-2012 14:34
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael1954 (Post 974138)
Margaret, if it's pointless, stop reading the thread. Don't you think you are being a tad patronising?
I'm sorry if you think I am, as you put it, a tad patronising...that certainly wasn't how my post was meant to be perceived......I read what I like...you cannot make a comment if you do not read something.

And G, No I certainly won't be forgetting the way our current MP treated his constituency member...which was, with utter contempt.

Less, I am quite aware of why our soldiers fought...my father was one of those, as probably yours was too....and I remember them and their efforts....though a lot of their efforts seem to be in vain, and this is not because of what local government have done...it is because of what our governments over the years have done.

The only redress we have is to ensure we make our displeasure is felt the next time there is an election...local or otherwise.......but while there are the likes of some of the councillors(whose names I am sure you know, but I will not mention) are in place do not expect things to change too much...they are only looking after their 'brothers'.

garinda 01-03-2012 14:35
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 974130)
this does not seem to move anyone either.....it is, therefore, a bit pointless.
Just because the councillors involved seem unconcerned with what they did, does not make discussing it 'pointless'.

If enough of the people that elect them to be their representatives are made aware of their actions, those councillors might be forced to face the consequences of their actions.

'All that’s necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing.' - Edmund Burke.

Margaret Pilkington 01-03-2012 14:41
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Maybe, but the councillor who was responsible for bringing the issue to the table will not suffer such because he has his community to support him.
I do not like having to justify my comment, but here goes my reasoning.......it is pointless in respect of the fact that nothing will be done by the councillors about the issue...whether it will affect them at the ballot box is anybody's guess, I suppose it would depend on who was standing against them......the discussion just treads the same ground...over and over......and that is my cue to bow out.

garinda 01-03-2012 14:44
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 974146)
And G, No I certainly won't be forgetting the way our current MP treated his constituency member...which was, with utter contempt.
Similarly, it is also valid to remember what our local, as well as what our national representatives have done, come the next election.

More so in this case, is this subject a valid topic for discussion, because for the first time since it happened, a councillor has recently used this forum to publicly comment on what was carried out in our name.

garinda 01-03-2012 14:50
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 974148)
Maybe, but the councillor who was responsible for bringing the issue to the table will not suffer such because he has his community to support him.
I do not like having to justify my comment, but here goes my reasoning.......it is pointless in respect of the fact that nothing will be done by the councillors about the issue...whether it will affect them at the ballot box is anybody's guess, I suppose it would depend on who was standing against them......the discussion just treads the same ground...over and over......and that is my cue to bow out.
I don't subscribe to apathy.

If something is wrong, it should be challenged.

The world isn't fair, or perfect.

That doesn't mean we should hold our hands up, and surrender to that fact.

Things can, and do change.

Constantly.

With a little effort.

cashman 01-03-2012 14:54
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Moss (Post 974144)
I was asked outright on the same day that I came back to the forum after a hiatus. I've given my opinion, although this thread has now changed to getting all hissy about the original wording rather than the motion that was actually passed.

With councillors getting a roasting for something they didn't do, I don't see there's anything left to discuss.
Thats whats bugging me Ken, If the original wording was objectionable then why was the motion not dumped there n then by the ruling party?

garinda 01-03-2012 14:57
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 974151)

Things can, and do change.

Constantly.

With a little effort.
You only have to look at the change on this forum, in regards to support for Graham Jones, to see that.

From hero, to zero, in three easy steps.

Ken Moss 01-03-2012 14:58
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 974152)
Thats whats bugging me Ken, If the original wording was objectionable then why was the motion not dumped there n then by the ruling party?
Because motions don't work like that, you can't just throw something out because you don't agree with it otherwise the ruling group would just dump everything that wasn't in their favour. That's no better than a dictatorship anyway and I wouldn't be in favour no matter who was in control.

Putting up amendments to motions is common practice and a better way of improving things.

accyman 01-03-2012 15:01
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
surely though ken if it has no buisness been discussed in the first place it can be thrown out its not as though it had anything to do with HBC at all.

if someone put a motion forward objecting to america driving on teh opposite side of teh road to us would that be ameded or thrown out?

its a good job there arnt any companies in the area relying on trade from india because if they found out hyndburn were supporting the invasion of their country and abuse of its people they could see fit to go elsewhere to spend their money.

this is one reason why i think the whole situation shoudl have been avoided because it appears that HBC supports teh invasion of india by pakistan and no matter how words are amended thats teh message that has been sent.It isnt for the council to take sides on international matters that even the big boys in national politics avoid like the plague.

our country is allied to both india and pakistan and out of teh two i would say the Indian people give us a better deal and show a lot more loyalty

garinda 01-03-2012 15:04
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Moss (Post 974144)
I was asked outright on the same day that I came back to the forum after a hiatus. I've given my opinion, although this thread has now changed to getting all hissy about the original wording rather than the motion that was actually passed.

With councillors getting a roasting for something they didn't do, I don't see there's anything left to discuss.
For the first time since you, and your fellow councillors, voted to support the contentious motion, we've had someone, you, who was directly involved, publicly pass comment.

For that we thank you.

That is why the discussion has been carried on.

Without you giving us a new perspective, it wouldn't have.

Ken Moss 01-03-2012 15:05
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
I've said all there is to say on this and we're just going round in circles so that certain members can prove a point. What that point is I don't know.

If you have any further questions, see my previous posts.

garinda 01-03-2012 15:16
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Moss (Post 974144)
I don't see there's anything left to discuss.

So don't.

If you feel you have nothing further to add to the discussion, that's fine.

It's not hard to do.

It's easy.

Just stop posting.

If others feel they want to carry on, now you've given us your insights, I'm sure they will.

That's what happens here, on li'l ol' Accy Web.

People chat about stuff that's on their mind, and get it off their chests.

It's good to talk.

Less 01-03-2012 15:17
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Moss (Post 974154)

Putting up amendments to motions is common practice and a better way of improving things.
How, can backing either side of the Kashmeri, cruelty improve things in Hyndburn.
I abhor the violence, torture & rape that has been carried out by both sides.

As a Citizen of Hyndburn, I do not want my representatives involved in these atrocities in any way at all.

accyman 01-03-2012 15:22
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Less (Post 974161)
How, can backing either side of the Kashmeri, cruelty improve things in Hyndburn.
I abhor the violence, torture & rape that has been carried out by both sides.

As a Citizen of Hyndburn, I do not want my representatives involved in these atrocities in any way at all.
As a citizen of Hyndburn i dont want the world thinking i support the invasion of India by Pakistan and i bet neither does the small Indian community in Hynburn but alas HBC spoke globaly on a global issue on our behalf and put all our feet well and truly on one side of the conflict.

mind you we may be able to deny involvement because some websites have said that hyndburn city condems India

cashman 01-03-2012 15:49
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Moss (Post 974154)
Because motions don't work like that, you can't just throw something out because you don't agree with it otherwise the ruling group would just dump everything that wasn't in their favour. That's no better than a dictatorship anyway and I wouldn't be in favour no matter who was in control.

Putting up amendments to motions is common practice and a better way of improving things.
Oh i can accept that no problem, But this motion was a General Government Matter, Not a Local Council, in my view, So dumping that particular one would have made good sense to me.:confused: Its more a matter of damage limitation in my book.

jaysay 01-03-2012 17:52
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974127)
I saw the Council minute and was impressed by the way the officers dealt with it.
Ya gynn but they shouldn't have had to deal with it because it was sod all to do with HBC in the first place, they should have forwarded any concerns about this mater to the elected member of parliament, the person who was elected to tackle things of this nature

cmonstanley 01-03-2012 20:53
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
28 safar accrington 2012 - YouTube maybe this:D

accyman 01-03-2012 21:14
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmonstanley (Post 974230)
they really need to work on their hokey cokey i dont thing they quite graspped the basic concept of it at all in that video and teh words were all wrong too :)

gynn 02-03-2012 06:55
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 974192)
Ya gynn but they shouldn't have had to deal with it because it was sod all to do with HBC in the first place, they should have forwarded any concerns about this mater to the elected member of parliament, the person who was elected to tackle things of this nature
I don't think it's as simple as that, jaysay. Officers would have been accused of overriding the democratic right of any councillor to raise issues he/she feels are important within the community. In this instance, the councillor thought it to be a matter of sufficient concern within his community to raise awareness of the issue at Council, and let's face it, he has succeeded. Our friend Garinda has spent hours researching the web on the topic, so he knows more about it now than he did before.

I was fairly flippant about the subject at first, but when I saw how officers dealt with it I was impressed and felt the Council deserved to be defended on their handling of it all, which I think has been exemplary.

If that makes me a village idiot in the eyes of Garinda, then I think I can live with that!

garinda 02-03-2012 07:16
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974297)
Our friend Garinda has spent hours researching the web on the topic, so he knows more about it now than he did before.
Er...no, wrong again.

I haven't 'spent hours researching the topic'.

Unlike the numpties on the council I already knew this isn't a black and white issue, and I was fully aware that there have been reported human rights abues, carried out by both sides in this conflict. India...and Pakistan.

Yes, if in November you thought it wasn't the job of local councils to waste their times on international issues, and a few months later you've changed your mind, because of the way it was handled, to me that shows someone who doesn't stand by their principles, is easily swayed, and is therefore a bit dim.

cashman 02-03-2012 07:57
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Seems quite possible to me it was supported cos of being afraid of the P.C. brigade, What i mean,is if they went against it, the likelihood is the Racist card would have been played.A very sad state of affairs,if thats the case.

jaysay 02-03-2012 08:35
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974297)
I don't think it's as simple as that, jaysay. Officers would have been accused of overriding the democratic right of any councillor to raise issues he/she feels are important within the community. In this instance, the councillor thought it to be a matter of sufficient concern within his community to raise awareness of the issue at Council, and let's face it, he has succeeded. Our friend Garinda has spent hours researching the web on the topic, so he knows more about it now than he did before.

I was fairly flippant about the subject at first, but when I saw how officers dealt with it I was impressed and felt the Council deserved to be defended on their handling of it all, which I think has been exemplary.

If that makes me a village idiot in the eyes of Garinda, then I think I can live with that!
Please point out where it says in council regulations or standing orders just where council officers have to concern themselves with things not conected to the running of HBC, in fact things not even conected with this country, I await your answer with great interest

gynn 02-03-2012 10:18
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 974310)
Please point out where it says in council regulations or standing orders just where council officers have to concern themselves with things not conected to the running of HBC, in fact things not even conected with this country, I await your answer with great interest
The Council Constitution (believe it or not) does not preclude the Council from discussing issues ´not conected to the running of HBC, in fact things not even conected with this country.´ Indeed, I remember sitting at countless Council meetings over the years where issues ´not connected to the running of HBC´were raised, but which members felt warranted discussion.

Officers ´have to concern themselves´ with implementing the Council Constitution, and I see nowhere in the constitution that would have allowed them to tell a councillor they couldn´t raise an issue which the councillor felt was important to the community.

So faced with the thankless task of guiding the Council through a difficult situation, I think they did well.

garinda 02-03-2012 10:27
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974325)
So faced with the thankless task of guiding the Council through a difficult situation, I think they did well.
Unlike a few short months ago.

When you were scathing, that the council were spending anytime discussing international matters.

If something's wrong in principle, it doesn't magically change overnight, in my opinion.

I'm glad I'm not as easily swayed as you.

Have you thought of becoming a councillor?

You'd probably find you fit in very well.

:rolleyes:

jaysay 02-03-2012 10:52
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974325)
The Council Constitution (believe it or not) does not preclude the Council from discussing issues ´not conected to the running of HBC, in fact things not even conected with this country.´ Indeed, I remember sitting at countless Council meetings over the years where issues ´not connected to the running of HBC´were raised, but which members felt warranted discussion.

Officers ´have to concern themselves´ with implementing the Council Constitution, and I see nowhere in the constitution that would have allowed them to tell a councillor they couldn´t raise an issue which the councillor felt was important to the community.

So faced with the thankless task of guiding the Council through a difficult situation, I think they did well.
HBC was created to look after the interests of the people living within its boundaries, not what is happening to peoples relatives in another country, that is why we have the houses of Parliament and send a representative there to work on our behalf. The fact that a statement from HBC site atrocities in another country is, as far as I'm concerned and it seems most people taking part in this debate, not part of HBCs remit no matter how you wrap it up, the name of HBC is now being used for political posturing in another country, which is to my mind totally out of order, no matter how you try to placate it

Acrylic-bob 02-03-2012 11:37
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
I do take your point Gynn that on this occaision the officers of the council have probably made the best of a bad job in watering down the wording of the motion. But I would take issue a bit with what you said regarding the motives of the councillor who brought the motion in the first place, especially when you bear in mind Cllr Moss's assertion that he believed the motion to be blatantly "electioneering" on the part of Cllr Dad.

Is there nothing in the Constitution or regulations that prohibits such behaviour or that puts the onus on group leaders to make sure it does not occur? Because if there isn't, there should be.


.

garinda 02-03-2012 11:58
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob (Post 974341)
I do take your point Gynn that on this occaision the officers of the council have probably made the best of a bad job in watering down the wording of the motion. But I would take issue a bit with what you said regarding the motives of the councillor who brought the motion in the first place, especially when you bear in mind Cllr Moss's assertion that he believed the motion to be blatantly "electioneering" on the part of Cllr Dad.

Is there nothing in the Constitution or regulations that prohibits such behaviour or that puts the onus on group leaders to make sure it does not occur? Because if there isn't, there should be.


.
'Dr Misfar Hassan the County Councillor who lobbied the Labour group for this resolution expressed gratitude to the Leader of the Labour group Mr Miles Parkinson, Councillor Munsif Dad Councillor Ciaran Wells Councillor M Ayub and all members of the Labour Group in the Hyndburn Council for supporting the resolution.'

'Dr Misfar also congratulated and thanked the Councillors of the Conservative group including Councillor Allah Dad County Councillor Muhammad Younis and member councillors of the conservative group for supporting the resolution.'

UK?s Hyndburn City Council expresses support to Kashmiris Right to Self determination

Sounds like they were all giddily excited, into being duped into being international propagandists for the Pakistani cause.

garinda 02-03-2012 12:02
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 974348)
'Dr Misfar Hassan the County Councillor who lobbied the Labour group for this resolution expressed gratitude to the Leader of the Labour group Mr Miles Parkinson, Councillor Munsif Dad Councillor Ciaran Wells Councillor M Ayub and all members of the Labour Group in the Hyndburn Council for supporting the resolution.'

'Dr Misfar also congratulated and thanked the Councillors of the Conservative group including Councillor Allah Dad County Councillor Muhammad Younis and member councillors of the conservative group for supporting the resolution.'

UK?s Hyndburn City Council expresses support to Kashmiris Right to Self determination

Sounds like they were all giddily excited, into being duped into being international propagandists for the Pakistani cause.
These thanks were being reported worldwide, the day after the meeting at which H.B.C. voted to support the motion.

Weeks, and weeks before the watered down wording was made public.

:rolleyes:

cashman 02-03-2012 12:18
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 974348)
'Dr Misfar Hassan the County Councillor who lobbied the Labour group for this resolution expressed gratitude to the Leader of the Labour group Mr Miles Parkinson, Councillor Munsif Dad Councillor Ciaran Wells Councillor M Ayub and all members of the Labour Group in the Hyndburn Council for supporting the resolution.'

'Dr Misfar also congratulated and thanked the Councillors of the Conservative group including Councillor Allah Dad County Councillor Muhammad Younis and member councillors of the conservative group for supporting the resolution.'

UK?s Hyndburn City Council expresses support to Kashmiris Right to Self determination

Sounds like they were all giddily excited, into being duped into being international propagandists for the Pakistani cause.
Seems the good doctor don't know Hyndburn aint a city.:rolleyes::hehetable

Acrylic-bob 02-03-2012 12:48
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Ah! So now those implicated in prepapring the motion have names. And far from being sprung on them at the last minute, as we were originally told, this motion appears to have been the result of a certain amount of planning discussion and lobbying.

I have to ask, why then was the original motion couched in such appalling English?

Have the spending cuts at HBC reached such dreadful proportions that they cannot afford a spellchecker, much less a proofreader?

It was Cllr Moss's contention, the other day, that one of the reasons this motion was passed was because councillors decided to step back and look at the bigger picture, and in any case there were more important things for councillors to concern themselves with such as clean pavements and nice parks. Funny that, considering that the leader of the Labour group, Cllr Miles Parkinson, could find plenty of time to listen to the lobbying by CCllr Dr Hassan. He could also find plenty of time in his presumably tight schedule to include other councillors of the labour and conservative groups in the plotting.

The questions arise; Why all the obfuscation? Why can they not just be honest and admit what we now know to be the truth?

What happened to honesty and transparency?

The longer this goes on, and the more we find out, the more damaging this whole farrago becomes. And the closer calls for an official enquiry also come.


.

Less 02-03-2012 12:50
Well, I tell you what, when India as a gesture of Charity, try to sneak the aid money, (we as an impoverished Country gave to them), back to the U.K. I don't think Hyndburn need put out it's begging bowl, we won't get 'owt.


Is there a Councillor brave enough to put forward an amendment that states both sides are to be criticised for atrocities or else we as a town should keep our noses out?

Wrighty 02-03-2012 13:08
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmonstanley (Post 974230)
I know this is off topic but can anyone tell me how I can post youtube videos like this instead of just a link ?

Ken Moss 02-03-2012 21:05
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob (Post 974360)
Ah! So now those implicated in prepapring the motion have names. And far from being sprung on them at the last minute, as we were originally told, this motion appears to have been the result of a certain amount of planning discussion and lobbying.

I have to ask, why then was the original motion couched in such appalling English?

Have the spending cuts at HBC reached such dreadful proportions that they cannot afford a spellchecker, much less a proofreader?

It was Cllr Moss's contention, the other day, that one of the reasons this motion was passed was because councillors decided to step back and look at the bigger picture, and in any case there were more important things for councillors to concern themselves with such as clean pavements and nice parks. Funny that, considering that the leader of the Labour group, Cllr Miles Parkinson, could find plenty of time to listen to the lobbying by CCllr Dr Hassan. He could also find plenty of time in his presumably tight schedule to include other councillors of the labour and conservative groups in the plotting.

The questions arise; Why all the obfuscation? Why can they not just be honest and admit what we now know to be the truth?

What happened to honesty and transparency?

The longer this goes on, and the more we find out, the more damaging this whole farrago becomes. And the closer calls for an official enquiry also come.


.
Bob, it gives me no pleasure to say that this post is utter tripe.

Not one word of it is truth, it is simply a puerile attempt to twist things to suit your argument.

The final whisper of respect for you has now evaporated like a summer cloud.

gynn 02-03-2012 22:02
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
You must be thanking your lucky stars for the likes of acrylic bob and garinda, Councillor M.

In the week you have had to impose probably the most savage cuts in the history of HBC (Ł2.1million cuts in a budget of Ł12 million?), when every citizen of the borough had the opportunity to come to the scrutiny committee and have their say on the budget, what did you get?

By all accounts, not a single member of the public attending the scrutiny committee, and instead all you've had to deal with was a thoroughly nasty narrow minded debate on this website about an issue that everyone agrees has little impact on the day to day life of the average Hyndburn resident.

From an HBC point of view, the Kashmir thing was a diversion, nothing more. If it gave a few cheap headlines in the Punjabi Times, then so what? Todays papers are tomorrows chip paper.

garinda 02-03-2012 22:56
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974496)
that everyone agrees has little impact on the day to day life of the average Hyndburn resident.
...and the vast majority of people on this forum clearly think the council were wrong.

Wrong, that a local council wasted one minute of time with an international issue.

If you'd like to start your own little thread, about scrutiny committees, go right ahead.

This thread is about people being dismayed at what the councillors of Hyndburn have been duped into participating in.

An issue that has got sod all to do with the borough of Hyndburn.

As for Cllr. Moss having to deal with 'a thoroughly nasty narrow minded debate'.

Er...no he hasn't.

This is a totally independent, community forum, owned by Roy.

It has nothing at all to do with Hyndburn Borough Council.

If councillors choose to use this forum, they do so the same as every other member. Following the same rules, and regulations as everyone else.

I look forward to seeing your scrutiny committee thread.

In the meantime, this thread is about our local council, involving itself in issues thousands, and thousands of miles away from Hyndburn.

garinda 02-03-2012 23:01
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Moss (Post 974476)
Bob, it gives me no pleasure to say that this post is utter tripe.

Not one word of it is truth, it is simply a puerile attempt to twist things to suit your argument.

The final whisper of respect for you has now evaporated like a summer cloud.

Come, come Kenneth.

Whatever you might be, we expected you to be a man of your word.

You quite clearly stated you'd said all there is to say on this issue.

Never say, what you can't do.

It looks bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Moss (Post 974159)
I've said all there is to say on this and we're just going round in circles so that certain members can prove a point. What that point is I don't know.

If you have any further questions, see my previous posts.

gynn 03-03-2012 06:16
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 974513)

I look forward to seeing your scrutiny committee thread.
http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...3-a-60586.html

Consider it done.....er, a month ago.

garinda 03-03-2012 06:41
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974533)
http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...3-a-60586.html

Consider it done.....er, a month ago.
Er...yes.

That was thrilling.

Start another, about the lack of public interest at this week's scrutiny committee meeting.

Thanks for your input.

But this thread's subject is the public not wanting a local council to involve itself in international matters.

Try and make your next thread a little more dynamic, and more members might take an interest.

Good luck.

gynn 03-03-2012 07:07
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 974534)
Good luck.
Many thanks.

And Good Luck to you in continuing to flog a dead horse when everyone else has moved on. The Council put the Kashmir item to bed on 10th November. Nearly four months ago.

garinda 03-03-2012 07:23
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974535)
Many thanks.

And Good Luck to you in continuing to flog a dead horse when everyone else has moved on. The Council put the Kashmir item to bed on 10th November. Nearly four months ago.
Quite clearly, since one of the councillors involved, Ken Moss, spoke this week, making the first public comments since the council supported this motion, judging from the result of the poll, everyone on here still think this is a valid subject.

It's very apparent that everyone thinks a local council shouldn't be involving itself in international affairs.

I look forward to reading your new thread, about the lack of public attendance at this week's scrutiny committee meeting.

In the meantime, let's keep this thread to the particular subject being discussed.

The public wanting a local council to deal solely with local issues.

garinda 03-03-2012 07:49
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974535)
Many thanks.

And Good Luck to you in continuing to flog a dead horse when everyone else has moved on. The Council put the Kashmir item to bed on 10th November. Nearly four months ago.
Besides, six people posted in your budget thread.

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...3-a-60586.html

As opposed to thirty four different members who have actively participated in this thread, since it's creation earlier this week.

Neddy might be lame, but obviously people still care.

He only dies when people no longer post.

So many thanks for continuing to post here, and giving the old horse breath.

Less 03-03-2012 07:59
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974535)
Many thanks.

And Good Luck to you in continuing to flog a dead horse when everyone else has moved on. The Council put the Kashmir item to bed on 10th November. Nearly four months ago.
Surely they didn't put it to bed?
I would have thought that their intentions were to raise awareness, to the subject?

Well they have, I for one am now aware that neither side is innocent in this and the Council shouldn't have been involved in the first place.

If you don't consider it worthy of discussion then don't join in, but don't try to stop others from discussing it with diversionary tactics.

cashman 03-03-2012 08:31
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974535)
Many thanks.

And Good Luck to you in continuing to flog a dead horse when everyone else has moved on. The Council put the Kashmir item to bed on 10th November. Nearly four months ago.
Crap the council may have moved on,but everyone else aint, no matter what yeh claim. as fer scrutiny etc, Major cuts were inevitable in this climate,n thats more like what everyone else knew. so if anyone was going to attend, would be futile.:rolleyes:

jaysay 03-03-2012 08:34
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Its apparent that the members of this site do care about things which are undertaken in their name, when any statement start Hyndburn Council, it involves every member of the people who live here, not thousands of miles away, the fact that the council "put this issue to bed" as gynn says in November, it took nearly four months of questioning the decision to get involved in the first place, before a mouth piece from the council actually decided to have a say and explain their actions.

jaysay 03-03-2012 08:38
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 974557)
Crap the council may have moved on,but everyone else ain't, no matter what yeh claim. as fer scrutiny etc, Major cuts were inevitable in this climate,n thats more like what everyone else knew. so if anyone was going to attend, would be futile.:rolleyes:
Ya cashy futile and wouldn't have made the slightest difference what so ever, nothing would have changed, maybe its a sign of the times, what with very poor turnouts at elections, nobody actually gives a stuff what goes on in the council chamber as its all party politics and political point scoring from both sides, maybe if they put politics second and the people first, we might just see some light at the end of a very murky tunnel

gynn 03-03-2012 11:18
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 974557)
Crap the council may have moved on,but everyone else aint, no matter what yeh claim. :
Who ain't, apart from a few people on this thread?

Is it the burning question in the pubs across Hyndburn? Are people marching on the Town Hall demanding action? Are the streets of Accrington thronged with people asking each other why the Council has got itself involved in International affairs?

No. I thought not.

cashman 03-03-2012 11:45
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 974610)
Who ain't, apart from a few people on this thread?

Is it the burning question in the pubs across Hyndburn? Are people marching on the Town Hall demanding action? Are the streets of Accrington thronged with people asking each other why the Council has got itself involved in International affairs?

No. I thought not.
I have no idea what conversation in pubs is about as i rarely go in em, But as yeh thought not yeh must be a real pish head. cos you seem to know the answer.:rolleyes:

gynn 03-03-2012 12:42
Re: Should Hyndburn be supporting Pakistan in Kashmir?
 
We seem to be going round in circles on this topic. Let's try and summarise so we can draw a line under it and move on.

An Asian councillor puts forward a motion to Council on an issue that has no direct bearing on the Council. HE feels he is justified in doing so because a section of his constituents want to draw attention to what they see as an injustice. MOST other people disagree, feeling that it has nothing to do with the Council, and should more properly be taken up by the National Government.

The Council constitution doesn't prevent him from doing it, and accordingly the item is presented to Council. The more extreme words in the motion are watered down, and the Council pass a balanced, fairly anodyne resolution.

Lessons to be learned? Maybe the Council should add a one line amendment to its constitution disallowing items that are so clearly outside the control of the Council. Maybe the Group leaders should step in to prevent such items being presented on the basis of the resentment they are likely to cause.

Whatever the lessons to be learned, let's learn them and move on!


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