Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Interesting that a US Republican senator, previously vehemently opposed to same sex marriage, has now changed his tune because his son is gay.

BBC News - US Republican Senator Rob Portman favours gay unions

Maybe it should be an unwritten law that the only people to be taken seriously in a debate about the evils of same sex marriage should be those who can provide written proof that they or one of their offspring is gay, and STILL they think same sex marriage is wrong.

It might redress the balance a bit!

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

You must have enjoyed that Story gynn you've posted it twice :eek::D with a slight addenda:rolleyes:

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Just because everyone is doing something does not make it right.
Just because everyone believes in something...doesn't make that right either.

I would not care who in my family was homosexual.....I still would not be in favour of same sex marriage.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Why does it matter what sex they are if two people love each other and want to spend their lives together? Far better to have a healthy same sex relationship than an unhealthy heterosexual one, I really don't understand what the fuss is about? I haven't trawled through all the previous comments just some of them,but really why does it matter?

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

It don't matter a hill of beans.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

I couldn't give a flying fig what people get up to in the privacy of their own home...and I am not against same sex relationships........but marriage is between a man and a woman.
Anne if you are going to comment, and make that comment relevant then just to read a couple of posts will give you no real idea of what has gone before.
It is about same sex marriage. It wasn't about unhealthy heterosexual relationships.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

What!:confused: And who decided this? The politicians you don't trust? Or the God you don't believe in? How about "marriage is a union between two idiots who haven't noticed the divorce statistics?" Or the Islamic version: "Marriage is a union between a man and a sub-human punching bag"?

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

No...politics has no place inside religion....and religious leaders should also not meddle in political affairs.
You ask who decided this.......well, if you believe in him...God did.

I know it is not seen as politically correct to voice these opinions......but there are a lot of people who pay lip service to one thing and believe something else....because they don't want to speak out for fear of being branded homophobic.
Stick a label on someone for their views and you immediately stifle any debate.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Eric, the divorce statistics are going down...for the simple reason that many people do not bother to get married in the first place.
As for my spiritual beliefs......I'm not sure I have shared them on here...my political beliefs....are there for all to see. I do not trust politicians. This isn't likely to change any time soon.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Certainly doesn't matter to me Anne I've always been a live and let live person

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

:rofl38::rofl38::rofl38:its the way you tell um Eric a sub-human punching bag:D:D

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

So who in your eyes decides it?????

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

I think I have answered that question.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

That's just it, the issue isn't about the relationship it's about the governments insistence about it being a marriage. For me I really couldn't care less who does what to who, what, where or when.

What I do find offensive is a government & certain groups demanding & insisting that I accept their ways on an even footing. Why should I ? I'm prepared to let people go about their lives as they choose so long as I can have the same freedoms, it's the individuals choice, but being forced to accept a situation gives rise to resentment which then furthers intolerance.

On top of that there are far more pressing issues affecting the populace. Now if only the government would attempt to resolve these concerns with a modicum of the ardour they've pursued this insignificance, well, we'd probably have full employment, secured borders & a booming economy.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Well said. My sentiments entirely.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

It's the changing of definitions will always cause problems, as it and for the gay couples in question as well as other people. (EG definition of marriage changes, grounds for divorce must change--adultery for example means relations with the OPPOSITE sex).

I would be more in favour of an alternative to marriage that holds the same respect and purpose and is viewed in the same way by those institutions it matters to. If civil partnerships are not enough, then something else.
Edited because I forgot to quote;
So true.

My family are very 'anti gay' which has caused issues for me as I have quite a few gay friends , It's nice to view so much open-mindedness on here.

This made me laugh.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Its something I don't really think about much. Since I don't believe in God I see marriage as just a lawful agreement between two living creatures. So I could care less.

Will man and beast gain the rights next?

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

I have stated that I am not against same sex couples being together......having a partnership.......I am not anti-gay(though I do hate the word 'gay' used to express a same sex relationship).
As Sugarmouse has said, it is the redefining of marriage that I am against.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

That is a good question Rob....and it would be in the name of equality....what about polygamy as well.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Why???? Who's it going to hurt? Will it effect you? Its changing with the times, the fact you cant have a same sex marrage is just stupid. The world needs to grow up and people should have equal rights and people should stop moaning about things that don't really effect them.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

There is always another side to things-i.e how redefining of marriage is just a sign of the times, It's a valid point. But if It's not necessary, and will cause further issues for politics, religion, any institutions involved with marriage at all, then why not just have an alternative arrangement for same sex couples.

As I said before, redefining of marriage results in having to redefine many other meanings of words too-it's complicated and time-consuming and more problems emerge. If we keep 'marriage' to mean what it means, and have another option as an alternative, for same sex couples then why not do that.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Same sex marriage has happened before. Same sex couples have a civil partnership but why not marriage? I cant see the harm

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Neither can I, if this makes people feel better about their relationship why stand in their way, its hurting nobody else is it

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

We ... as in individuals, governments, churches ... do not, and cannot redefine marriage. It redifines itself in order to become compatible with human society which, like certain viruses, continually mutates and evolves. Problem seems to be that certain attitudes don't change at the same rate; or, in some societies, extreme Islamic ones come to mind, don't change at all.

Maybe one could, if one is interested, try to come to some understanding of why the definition of marriage as a union of a man and a woman came to be. I would start off, and this is a personal, maybe idiot-syncratic notion,;) that it's all about sex, and the male fear of, or discomfort with female sexuality. This shows itself in female circumcision, sharia law, Pauline injunctions ... I think it was in one of his e-mails to the Corinthians, but I'm still not using google ... on the line of it is better to marry than to burn. Throw in the economic and political needs of a ruling class based on inheritance, and voila! We have the beginning of marriage as we know it.

"The Family, Sex, and Marriage in England, 1500-1800" by Lawrence Stone is, though a little dated, still a good background read for anyone interested in exploring the topic. If not, it makes a good solid coaster for a pint of beer.;)

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Just think about the question you have asked......put a few thought processes together and work it out.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Why don't you answer questions? Are you related to cmon? Seems like it with the random meaningless stuff you spout

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

If you read all of my posts to this thread, I think I have explained myself fully and quite clearly. If you don't get my point of view then you don't get it.
I can see the implications, but you obviously cannot.

I am not alone in my views, there are hundreds of thousands of people who feel the same.....but this situation is a bit like the Emperor's New Clothes.......everyone will go along with it because they think it is the opinion to have(or maybe they just don't think at all - they accept all that they are told)....because everyone else seems to think it is fine....no harm in it...in fact, if you state a different view about homosexual marriage, you are castigated and derided(sometimes openly, other times by implication)....like there can only be one opinion...one point of view.
My point of view is different to yours...but I can live with that. So.... it seems, that the debate is over.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

But you might have loved a person for 20 years but there the same sex so in that case 'no marriage'

A couple of changed words oh wow!!!!

Marriage goes way back before the church so not relevant.

YOU THINK!!! So you've not asked anyone you're just assuming.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

I agree with all that's said here Eric. I drank far too much at university (who am I kidding I still do!) to remember all I read regards marriage, but the basics I concluded-you're pretty much right.

I am interested, but not enough-if you get me. If I was actually going to get married sometime soon, or thinking about it-or going to pursue a career related to marriage, I would.

I am also one of those caustic annoying people who always notes that everything comes down to sex when all's said and done-that marriage does, is one of the more obvious ones. It does go back further than any noted church, marriage is as old as civilisation from what I understand.
I may have a quick flick through google.

Regards this discussion, I've said pretty much what I want to say. I think it would be a better option to have an alternative to marriage for gay couples than to have them as one and the same as straight couples, but again, I can be a bit nostalgic-times change, things change.

I am not married, nor interested in marriage at the moment so my bum isn't hurting so much from sitting on the fence regards it all. I want society to accept gay people as equal in their human rights to straight people-but I don't think 'Equal To' means 'The Same As', and I don't think it has to in this case.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

I think...when used in this context means it is my opinion.
And taking quotes out of context is a way of fudging the discussion...as I have said......so many times.......I do not care what goes on is same sex partnerships....I have no issue with homosexuality........and same sex partnerships were put on an equal legal footing with the inception of civil partnerships.

The terminology changes may not be important for you, but for me they are.......and although you see them as just words, it is the implications behind those words which are important.

As I have previously said, derision(which you have openly used in your last post) is the weapon used to stifle any discussion or debate...and as I have also said....the debate is over...finished.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Isn't that what we have already with civil partnerships?
Why not? We're all human beings and I just wish the issue of sexuality would cease to be such a big thing. It's up to each individual and there is no need to for it to be in everyone's face all the time. If two people of the same sex wish to get married that's their business and no one else's. I think the thing that's getting folks excited about this is that it involves a church and God which a minority (I would say) are against.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Civil partnerships have a few slight differences and yes you're right-much of it seems to be to do with religion.

Even the practical differences are to do with religion, the symbols allowed in the ceremony, where the ceremony is, etc. Lawfully, they are the same. I could be wrong but I don't think recognised religious buildings or places of worship are allowed to perform a civil partnership, or allow one to be performed, even if the person in charge would want to.
Or if you mean why I emphasise the equality and likeness are separate things, well I suppose I mean, a gay couple are not the same as a straight couple. They are different-not worse, not better but not the same.
Same as, a woman I think should be treated with the same respect as a man, and I treat my friends of different race to me equally. But I acknowledge and embrace their differences, I don't ignore them.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

I do think it's about more than just sex. There is also the element of males wishing to control the sexuality of a particular female ... screwing around is, by the way, ok for the male.;) (I don't want to explore the evolutionary argument. Maybe someone else will bring it up.) And we are all aware of the deadly consequences of this attitude towards marrige, and romantic love. How many women are killed every year by ex-partners? And how many of their children ... collateral damage I believe it is called?:rolleyes: I know that, in Canada, women are victims of these crimes to the tune of about 100 a year. Maybe we should put arguments about the sacrament of marriage on the back burner for a while, and try to come up with solutions for deadlier problems.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

So....let me see...in your opinion, I spout random meaningless stuff.
You have just confirmed my suspicions. You can see....and read, far better than you can think, rationalise and process information.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Yes...the whole world seems to be in an unholy mess. Yet our wonderful government and the opposition MP's too, think that their time is well spent on dealing with something like this.......a bit like Nero fiddling while Rome burned(and yes, I know this didn't actually happen, it is an apposite analogy).
The country can go to hell in a handcart, but our leaders concentrate on something which will benefit something like 2%(according to reports) of the population.
But then, railroading this bill onto the statute books is an easy ask...especially when the views of many people have not been considered(nothing new there either)...dealing with the failing economy, the problems in the EU......Welfare concerns, the drop in manufactruing growth, problems with the press.......all these things are difficult to solve...takes much more action to sort out these issues...lots of 'jawing' goes on, but the action is strictly limited...nay, non existent.

So Eric, K to you for that. And this will be the last time I contribute to this thread. I have said all that I wish to say on the subject and if my opinions are not clear now...then, they never will be.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

There are two points of view on this and never the twain shall meet, Margaret's against it and I respect her view on this, it doesn't bother me as I'm live and let live, its not hurting me, so carry on.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Yer opinions are always pretty clear, The mentally challenged may not grasp em though.;)

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

I have looked through all the posts you have made on this thread . You have been consistent throughout , and I think your post which I have quoted here best sums up all you are saying .

You are respecting the English language and the meaning behind the words in our language .

My Chambers Engish Dictionary defines the word "marriage" as the ceremony , act , or contract by which a man and woman become husband and wife : the union of a man and woman as husband and wife .

My Oxford Illustrated Dictionary defines the word "marriage" as the act , ceremony , or procedure by which a man and a woman are legally united for the purpose of living together .

So I will stick with the English language , and say that I can no more marry a man than I could marry my dog or my neighbour's cat .

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Neither could I, but why stop other people, who through no fault of their own, not be happy in the life they did not pick but have had to go through life with. its not as though a teenage boy or girl wake up one morning and say I've decided I'm going to be gay, its not a life choice, its a circumstance beyond their control.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Are there 'heterophobes' in the homosexual community? Is the revulsion felt by some of sexual preferences different from their own inborn or learnt? Just curious.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Jaysay , I am not stopping anybody . Like Margaret I am just saying that in the English language marriage is between man and woman , and so let's respect the language and the meaning behind it .

Surely a civil union or partnership is good terminology to use , rather than bringing in language from another type of union or partnership which is specific to itself .

My saying "Please do not use the word "marriage" but stay with "civil union or partnership" " is not saying anything implied in your post .

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Are you serious! We should govern our behaviour according to a dictionary:rofl38::rofl38:! And here's me thinking that governing one's behaviour according to the Bible and the Koran was stupid enough.:rolleyes: You have taken it down a few notches to a whole new level of dumbness.
The Age of the Dictionary - The History of English (7/10) - YouTube

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Think I'm going to leave all my posts to you in future Eric, couldn't have put it better myself. :)

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Me too, Susie! Would buy you a pint of Moosejaw (or whatever the ale is over there) for that one, Eric! :D

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

i wonder if that will be what teh groom says to the groom on tehir wedding night :eek:

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

You've taken the words out of my mouth Eric, given the dictionary was written ages ago, its time the definition was change to bring it into the twenty first century instead of leaving it in the dark ages

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

there's a lot of grooms have said that too the bride too accyman:rolleyes:

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

I am serious about understanding what marriage is , and the dictionary is just one aid to help our understanding .

"We should govern our behaviour according to a dictionary " . Your words , never mine , and not my opinion .

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Which dictionary are you referring to , and how many ages ago ?

I named two dictionaries I was quoting from .

You just say "the dictionary" . Rather vague .

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

any dictionary

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Close there, bud; but no cigar ... it's Moosehead ... ;):D ... available for sale in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan.


Moosehead Brewery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A fine brew ... union made ... and apt for any engagement party, or marriage banquet:dancedog:

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

I thought the fuss about this subject was about what the Bible says, not the dictionary.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

If it's not your opinion, why did you bring up the idea: "dictionary as dogma", the final word? Bible, Koran, Torah ... I can understand. But the dictionary! Think of what could happen. It's bad enough that JWs show up on my doorstep. What next? Hordes of lexicographers, peddling their version of the dictionary.:rolleyes:

I can see why some folks oppose gay marriage. I can see governments not wishing to allow it for economic and political reasons. But there have to be stronger arguments than definitions of words.

I also think it's insulting to the intelligence of posters on here to quote the dictionary. I'm sure most of us have a fair idea of what the word "marriage" means.

"Words are but the signs of ideas" ... or so the great lexicographer Samuel Johnson said. And ideas do change.

I think I've had my say on this topic. Time to grab my snow shovel and enjoy this first day of Spring.:dancedog:

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

The English language is a living, breathing entity - words drop into disuse, new words appear, and the meaning of some words change. Dictionaries simply reflect this. In time, dictionaries will reflect this new change.

It boils down to this - people should be allowed to get married in the way they want, to whom they want, and, if they have religion in their lives, with that in the ceremony. In other words, gay people should have equality with everyone else. It's their choice and it does no harm to anyone else - and that's not political correctness, it's just common sense.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

exactly

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

When did I bring up that idea ?

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Has anyone on this thread quoted from the Bible ? :confused:

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

This thread at the moment has 24 pages and has been going for over a year. I don't know if anyone has quoted the Bible verbatim but some people have said they do not approve of single sex marriages because the Bible forbids them. That to me is the crux of the whole issue.

Google "Bible forbids single sex marriage" and pick the bones out of what you find. I'm not that interested in a 2000+ year old tome that has very little relevance to today's society.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Post #338 seems to fit the bill ... and the reductio ad absurdam (it's in the dictionary) at the end of your post doesn't help your argument one darned bit.

Anyway, enough of this ... shovelling is done ... dictionary is put away ... and I'm outa here.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

That hardly answers the question I asked you .

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

I don't think you will find any of that on this thread .

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Have a look around pages 19 or so.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Yes , I've just read them . But the point I was trying to make was that no-one on this thread has used anything from the Bible to support their views against same sex "marriages" .

In fact , and do correct me if I am mistaken , the Bible says nothing about same sex "marriages" .

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

You're right. There was no such thing when the Bible was written.
In fact, there was no such thing in the UK until 5th Feb.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Thanks . And your post may help to lead to a clarification of some of the opinions expressed on this thread .

No-one on this thread has expressed a view attacking homosexuality .

However , some have expressed views opposing the term "same sex marriages" which does not mean that they are opposing homosexuality .

We have various types of civil partnership , the most common being marriage , which is a civil partnership between a man and a woman .

There are laws to protect marriage . I cannot marry my sister . That would be incest which is illegal .
I cannot marry the wife of my next-door neighbour's husband . That would be bigamy which is illegal .

Then we have the civil partnership between a man and a man , or between a woman and a woman . Such a partnership is not a marriage because by its very definition marriage is between male and female .

Now I am not prepared to let politicians come along and tell me what I have to believe about marriage . Marriage is a covenant between members of the opposite sex . Mr Cameron you can turn but this man is not for turning .

So we have the civil parnership between man and woman which is marriage .
Then we have the civil partnership between same sex couples which of its nature cannot be marriage .

The politicians can change the laws as they please . Why they could not have stayed with civil partnerships is beyond me . If they had wanted a new phrase to use for same sex relationships , surely they could have come up with a better term than "marriage" . Something like "same sex covenants" should have sufficed .

I don't intend to post any more on this thread because I have made myself clear .

Marriage is between a man and a woman , so there can be no such thing as same sex marriages .

Civil partnerships are of various kinds , one being same sex civil partnerships with which I have no problem .

Finito ! And thanks to all who have discussed the issue with me , even though we may disagree .

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

I will only be concerned when they make marriage compulsory.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

:eek::eek:so would I:eek::D

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

The BBC website has a series of Q&A about same sex marriage. The two copied below might help to clarify the debate. There is a feeling that same sex partnerships do not go the whole way to define a relationship, which is why campaigners want there to be the possibility of marriage as well.

How does same-sex marriage differ from civil partnership?
Civil partnership is a legal relationship exclusively for same-sex couples, distinct from marriage.
It offers the same legal treatment as marriage across a range of matters, such as inheritance, pensions provision, life assurance, child maintenance, next of kin and immigration rights.
Opposite-sex couples can opt for a religious or civil marriage ceremony, whereas a same-sex partnership is an exclusively civil procedure.
Couples in civil partnerships will be able to convert their relationships into marriages if they wish - but they will be under no obligation to do so if they would rather retain their civil partnership.



Why do campaigners want same-sex marriage?
Supporters cite a number of reasons for wanting gay marriage, including that separate civil partnerships perpetuate the notion that same-sex relationships are not as valid as heterosexual ones and that legal rights are still not exactly the same as those conferred by marriage.
Campaigners also say there would be international recognition for same-sex marriage. They say there is no universally-accepted recognition of civil partnerships and they differ widely from one country to the next.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

It will be a formal wedding: White shotguns, with the ceremony held in Winchester Cathedral;)

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

As to the last sentence, absolute fallacy ! Really, so if they wave their prod permit (saying married) in front of the Saudis, some of the African nations or even certain states in the good ol' U.S of A, everything will be just hunky dory ? I don't think so some how.

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

All i can say to that, is campaigners talk utter balls.:rolleyes:

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Most probably, considering the subject matter. :rolleyes:

Re: Same Sex Marriages.
 

Defintely not in Saudi and some of the other Gulf States - including Iran. Homosexuality is against the law (Sharia) in quite a number of Muslim countries